Unranked and ranked have different MMR based upon what has been said by Justin in these forums.
Ranked MMR initially was in large part carry over from the old system. In addition to separate MMR between ranked/unranked, there are separate MMRs per profession. It may be that there is a general MMR and profession specific MMR for both modes, that much has not been communicated.
Forfeits and byes do not impact something based on that post, it’s likely MMR. However in ranked your rank points don’t have their behavior changed from byes and forfeits.
Edit
I think I just figured out that MMR stands for match making rating, so yes byes and forfeits don’t impact MMR.
Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)
I am kind of confused myself, since ‘Bye’ and ‘Forfeit’ are not defined. So if a member of the enemy team leaves and comes back, my team gets a ‘bye’. MMR is not adjusted but will still count as a win no matter what on the LB’s and give me + pts on LB’s No matter if we loose?
2nd. So if a member of my team gets DC’ed (desertion), comes back, it is an automatic ‘forfeit’? MMR not adjusted but an automatic loss for the ENTIRE team on LB and -pts as well??
If this is correct, seems a bit harsh to punish a whole team for 1 mans actions.
Or is everything normal and just MMR is not changed for each team. If so…would have been easier to just state that instead of throwing words in there without defining them.
OP can you change your Thread title to a Q: that way it gets seen by a dev?
PvP: Players on winning teams will now receive a bye if they are victorious against a team on which one more players disconnect during the match.
PvP: Players on losing teams with one or more desertions will now receive a forfeit.
PvP: Players’ win totals will now include byes.
PvP: Players’ loss totals will now include forfeits.
PvP: Matchmaking ratings are not adjusted if a match results in a bye or forfeit.
PvP: Ladder points are still adjusted for all wins, byes, losses, and forfeits.
So if you win and one of your opponent’s team disconnected, you get a “buy” aka a lesser win. If you lose but one your own team was disconnected, you get a “forfeit” aka a lesser loss.
It’s not stated (implied) that if you win with one of your own team disconnecting, it still counts as a win. This should be clarified.
My concern is the “griefing” aspect or say I’m dominating an opponent’s team and it’s 5v5 for 99% of the match time. At the last second before we win, one of the opponent’s team purposely disconnects which now counts my win as a “buy” aka lesser win.
What’s also odd is that it affects matchmaking only and not the ladder placement. Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
PvP: Players on winning teams will now receive a bye if they are victorious against a team on which one more players disconnect during the match.
PvP: Players on losing teams with one or more desertions will now receive a forfeit.
PvP: Players’ win totals will now include byes.
PvP: Players’ loss totals will now include forfeits.
PvP: Matchmaking ratings are not adjusted if a match results in a bye or forfeit.
PvP: Ladder points are still adjusted for all wins, byes, losses, and forfeits.
So if you win and one of your opponent’s team disconnected, you get a “buy” aka a lesser win. If you lose but one your own team was disconnected, you get a “forfeit” aka a lesser loss.
It’s not stated (implied) that if you win with one of your own team disconnecting, it still counts as a win. This should be clarified.
What’s odd is that it affects matchmaking only and not the ladder placement. Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
This makes no sense. You can’t have a lesser win? You would then score 0 leaderboard points for the match, since you only get 1 for winning. Why would you be punished if the other team disconnects and get no points. It’s not your fault. Also they say MMR (matchmaking) is NOT affected while the LB’s are. The bye’s and forfeits are added to the leaderboards. It needs to be fully explained as to what happens (for both sides) in the event of a forfeit and bye. The way they made it sound you get screwed if your in a match where 1 person DC’s; whether he is on your team or the other..We need explanation Anet.
If a team has someone leave or quit, but then goes on to win, despite being outnumbered, what happens? (I’ve done this a few times.)
If both teams have someone disconnect, what happens?
Does it matter when in the match someone disconnects?
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These notes were added by mistake. They’re upcoming changes we’re testing, but I can’t say if and when they’ll make it your way.
The intent was that buys would update ladder standing the same as a win, but would not update matchmaking rating. Forfeits would not update ladder standing (for the loser) or matchmaking rating for either team.
The player that left would get a desertion on there record, and will take a full loss whether their team won or loss, but would not affect their matchmaking rating. A win/loss only changes to a buy/forfeit if the losing team had desertions.
To prevent exploits, all members of the same party as the deserter would also receive a desertion result, but will not receive dishonor unless they leave early as well. Due to their strict nature, these changes would likely be accompanied with a disconnect grace period.
Does that answer your questions?
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Wooow. Oooohkay Does this imply intent of “do not ever queue as a party. EVER”? Because if someone disconnects you get whacked with deserter result?
This change is not live. This change would likely have a disconnect grace period. Know someone that DCs a lot, and for a long time… probably not a good idea to party with them.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Wooow. Oooohkay Does this imply intent of “do not ever queue as a party. EVER”? Because if someone disconnects you get whacked with deserter result?
This change is not live. This change would likely have a disconnect grace period. Know someone that DCs a lot, and for a long time… probably not a good idea to party with them.
A grace period would be good…60 seconds? Also, for the whole team getting deserter results, that means -3 pts automatic on LB’s right?
Also, for the whole team getting deserter results, that means -3 pts automatic on LB’s right?
Correct. The alternative is to allow parties to dodge bad ladder results by having just one person take the fall. Another alternative is that we just do nothing, and everyone that suffers a 4v5 takes a loss (unless of course they manage to still win).
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Leaderboard should go down irrespective of if someones leaves.
MMR change should be zero wieghted on both sides (before 400 points) however. Its this fluctuation that leads to worse matchmaking, which causes the 4v5s in the first place.
3 dc’s, one because of my internet going out, two because of a crash and a dc (thats on Anet). That’s -9 points, while I reconnected and won 1 atleast. Grace period is a tough one, as I’m a slow loader. But indeed, the loss for the team after a 1min 4v5 would be to big.
Anyway, we need a solution for this. If it’s my fault for disconnecting, then k you can punish me. But GW2 is a crash/dc heavy game, and it’s all too frustrating to lose 3 points even though you reconnect asap.
Also, for the whole team getting deserter results, that means -3 pts automatic on LB’s right?
Correct. The alternative is to allow parties to dodge bad ladder results by having just one person take the fall. Another alternative is that we just do nothing, and everyone that suffers a 4v5 takes a loss (unless of course they manage to still win).
I feel 60 seconds is sufficient. After all, you got to log back in and double loading screens. Longer would be way OP. 30 seconds is also awfully fast and a bit harsh. I also think that this should only be 1 grace period per player. If he goes DC again, he gets punished no matter how long he gone.
I think it is unfair to punish the entire team with deserter status. What did the rest of them do wrong? It’s not their fault. I think only the person that DC get punished is the only fair way to go here.
I am of the opinion that the desertion party result should only apply to premade parties. If players who joined solo have a random party member leave dc..then they shouldn’t have a penalty for someone they do not know.
Let’s say that 60 seconds WOULD be enough IF we hadn’t servers reporting errors while trying to relog back after dc….
Can’t be longer than 60 seconds. If you can’t log back in, in that time that is your kitten computer/ ISP. Not going to make it 3 minutes just to ensure everyone gets back in. Already at 60 seconds you are pushing the verge of loosing the match because of YOU. If enemy team realizes one of u left…it is an instant push for a 3 cap. Easily done in 60 seconds in a 5v4. If that happens, they will be 50-100 points further ahead by the time you ever get back. 45-60 seconds, somewhere in there; no less, no more.
They should find a way to skip the HOTM loading and get straight into the match. Like I’ve said before I’m a slow loader but I think I could do 1 loading screen in 1 min :p. Especially if it’s straight into the match as those need less ‘loading time’ usually.
Some additional details that would likely be useful to this debate.
1) The grace period would likely accumulative. Meaning 3 disconnects at 10 seconds each would be treated the same as 1 disconnect for 30 seconds.
2) You connect to the game server early in the loading screen, so the majority of the second load screen would not be factored in.
3) Loading into HotM is required for security reasons.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
Some additional details that would likely be useful to this debate.
1) The grace period would likely accumulative. Meaning 3 disconnects at 10 seconds each would be treated the same as 1 disconnect for 30 seconds.
2) You connect to the game server early in the loading screen, so the majority of the second load screen would not be factored in.
3) Loading into HotM is required for security reasons.
is it possible to find a way around #3 on your end? i know league of legends doesnt have straight up reconnect upon login, you have to click “yes, reconnect” from their lobby client, but they havent shared their reasoning for that instead of directly reconnecting asap (and i kind of doubt theyve been asked to share that info). of course, theres also a pause function for cases like tournament dc’s.
anything for less loading screens.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
Let’s say that 60 seconds WOULD be enough IF we hadn’t servers reporting errors while trying to relog back after dc….
Can’t be longer than 60 seconds. If you can’t log back in, in that time that is your kitten computer/ ISP. Not going to make it 3 minutes just to ensure everyone gets back in. Already at 60 seconds you are pushing the verge of loosing the match because of YOU. If enemy team realizes one of u left…it is an instant push for a 3 cap. Easily done in 60 seconds in a 5v4. If that happens, they will be 50-100 points further ahead by the time you ever get back. 45-60 seconds, somewhere in there; no less, no more.
Server errors while trying to relog while isp and everything else (Like ts stream and so on) is fine it’s not your pc
Server errors while trying to relog while isp and everything else (Like ts stream and so on) is fine it’s not your pc
That isn’t how the internet works.
You’re correct in assuming that your ISP’s connection is likely not having any issues, but that doesn’t mean the problem isn’t somewhere along the path from you to us. The internet a big mess of interconnected nodes, you can have 99% of those nodes functioning and a single node in the right place can create an outage for a large number of places. It’s usually transient though, as things can reroute around the problem.
Image you’re trying to drive home for the holiday. You don’t know it, but there is a wreck on the highway going South. You may never even notice because you can can still head North, East, or West, but doesn’t mean there isn’t something block the path when you try to head south.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
5v4’s should NEVER count toward ANYTHING, including leaderboards and MMR. the game simply shouldn’t count for anyone.
I hope this change is gonna be implemented soon.
I agree with you, with one exception. I think if the team that has a deserter wins it should count. If for nothing else than to prevent trolls from leaving at the last moment to cheat their team out of a win.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
5v4’s should NEVER count toward ANYTHING, including leaderboards and MMR. the game simply shouldn’t count for anyone.
I hope this change is gonna be implemented soon.
I agree with you, with one exception. I think if the team that has a deserter wins it should count. If for nothing else than to prevent trolls from leaving at the last moment to cheat their team out of a win.
Wooow. Oooohkay Does this imply intent of “do not ever queue as a party. EVER”? Because if someone disconnects you get whacked with deserter result?
This change is not live. This change would likely have a disconnect grace period. Know someone that DCs a lot, and for a long time… probably not a good idea to party with them.
My only concern is that if someone gets disconnected then they basically killed the match for whole team. I’m lucky as my connection is fairly stable. But other people in my guild do disconnect from time to time. So if we go as a 3 or 4-person team anyone who disconnects in the middle gives everyone the black mark? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. If someone DCed for whatever reason, the rest of the party should carry on and get win or loss, whatever happens (if person is back on fast enough, no problem, that person doesn’t deserve desertion mark either). I can’t control what Californian ISP and power grid does. Why do you want to punish me for something beyond my control? “If you don’t want to risk a black mark, just play by yourself”, right? Because in that case the flow of the match will be the same (player A disconnected, crashed/whatever, the rest carry on) but only disconnected player would be punished. Or once one member disconnected everyone else should just close the game, because the result would be the same?
But GW2 is a crash/dc heavy game, and it’s all too frustrating to lose 3 points even though you reconnect asap.
I agree with this. Several times multiple people in party have begun getting heavy lagg spikes and/or disconnects in PvP, WvW and PvE. Just yesterday someone in map party Lion’s Arch asked “I am constantly disconnecting, anyone else?” and some other guy replied “In this game it’s normal, get used to it.”
So yeah… most of the disconnects are not on players but on server load/connectivity.
I know anet staff can’t be the one to suggest it but get a VPN, it saved my gw2 gaming experience.
it’s (usually) not anet’s servers connection issues but some part of the route that leads there malfunctioning. in my case (and many other) a certain german node that decides to cut off gw2 packets during primetime.
if it’s not that try changing gw2 port: default one is used by p2p programs so that too could be throttled by your isp.
If you fix those 2 you should solve 99% dc issues not dependant on you or the servers.
Revive thread! One the most constructive threads out there right now. I think a compounding grace period is a good idea. If you make it 45 seconds or whatever, you should be able to disconnect say twice for 20 seconds. Maybe 30 seconds is a good period, because honestly much longer than that you cripple your team to much. I do like the idea that if 1 person leaves, the rest of his team should not take negative points (unless win). They got kitten because of someone else and are almost sure to loose. Would be a relief instead of maybe scaring people off that are loosing many points because of this. Originally I thought maybe they system should recalculate the teams % chance to win so it is on the bottom end. I then realize this would not work because if someone is there the whole game until the very end and that team wins; it would make the other team take -3 points because the system recalculated them to win by a long shot, due to 4v5 calculation.
5v4’s should NEVER count toward ANYTHING, including leaderboards and MMR. the game simply shouldn’t count for anyone.
I hope this change is gonna be implemented soon.
I agree with you, with one exception. I think if the team that has a deserter wins it should count. If for nothing else than to prevent trolls from leaving at the last moment to cheat their team out of a win.
Basically this. Win points for winning team. If Winning team is 5, loosing team is 4; loosing team takes no negative points (besides the deserter). If winning team is 4 and loosing team is 5. normal win/ loss points awarded (-3 for deserter).
What would be the problem with if you have an ally D/C or leave or whatever, at the end of the game you get a pop up asking “did this player’s absence noticeably affect the outcome of your game?” or something like that. Just a yes or no.
if anyone says yes then you get deserter. if nobody says yes then the D/C never happened.
I also see it as a problem if a team can win the match but have someone desert naer the end, which means their 4 allies all gain LB points, but their MMR does not increase. If the desertion penalty was -4 then it wouldn’t be exploitable because the +4 points you get for the 4 games it wasn’t your turn to desert would cancel out the -4 for desertion, however if it’s -3 then you can infinitely grind leaderboard points without your MMR ever increasing.
If you indefinitely get -3 every match, you can’t grind the Lb’s. LB’s require you to get + points. Meaning you still have to win the next 3 matches to make up for your desertion and win 4 in a row to gain positive points….This would mean you have to uphold a 100% win ratio if you DC 1 in every 4 matches (making it 75% win). So after 100 wins & 25 losses(DC’s), you will only have 25 points on LB’s for 125 matches.
If you indefinitely get -3 every match, you can’t grind the Lb’s. LB’s require you to get + points. Meaning you still have to win the next 3 matches to make up for your desertion and win 4 in a row to gain positive points….This would mean you have to uphold a 100% win ratio if you DC 1 in every 4 matches (making it 75% win). So after 100 wins & 25 losses(DC’s), you will only have 25 points on LB’s for 125 matches.
no you are in a team of 5 and take turns doing it. so you get -3 then +1+1+1+1. and start over
If you indefinitely get -3 every match, you can’t grind the Lb’s. LB’s require you to get + points. Meaning you still have to win the next 3 matches to make up for your desertion and win 4 in a row to gain positive points….This would mean you have to uphold a 100% win ratio if you DC 1 in every 4 matches (making it 75% win). So after 100 wins & 25 losses(DC’s), you will only have 25 points on LB’s for 125 matches.
no you are in a team of 5 and take turns doing it. so you get -3 then +1+1+1+1. and start over
You are right. It could happen. If you can actually ALWAYS win (which you won’t unless you are one of the best teams). So now lets look at point spread. To be in the top 250 RIGHT NOW (10 days in), you need 51 points. This means you would need to have (using a -3+1+1+1+1 formula) 204 wins and 50 losses. Yes that is 254 games played with a perfect scenario just to make top 250. That is a fraction over 25 games a day. If you do an average wait time + match time you could just say 15 minutes a match. That is 6 hours 15 minutes non stop play time. So yes if you can find 5 people with no jobs, no school, and no lives that are GOOD ENOUGH to maintain a 100% ratio for 254 games, it is possible. In real life, you are talking about a situation that will not actually happen. Possible yes, improbable YES.
If you indefinitely get -3 every match, you can’t grind the Lb’s. LB’s require you to get + points. Meaning you still have to win the next 3 matches to make up for your desertion and win 4 in a row to gain positive points….This would mean you have to uphold a 100% win ratio if you DC 1 in every 4 matches (making it 75% win). So after 100 wins & 25 losses(DC’s), you will only have 25 points on LB’s for 125 matches.
no you are in a team of 5 and take turns doing it. so you get -3 then +1+1+1+1. and start over
You are right. It could happen. If you can actually ALWAYS win (which you won’t unless you are one of the best teams). So now lets look at point spread. To be in the top 250 RIGHT NOW (10 days in), you need 51 points. This means you would need to have (using a -3+1+1+1+1 formula) 204 wins and 50 losses. Yes that is 254 games played with a perfect scenario just to make top 250. That is a fraction over 25 games a day. If you do an average wait time + match time you could just say 15 minutes a match. That is 6 hours 15 minutes non stop play time. So yes if you can find 5 people with no jobs, no school, and no lives that are GOOD ENOUGH to maintain a 100% ratio for 254 games, it is possible. In real life, you are talking about a situation that will not actually happen. Possible yes, improbable YES.
yea in the beginning its just a games grind
but eventually as MMRs become more accurate (from more games played) then people will start reaching personal maximums on the LB because they will be winning basically 50% of their matches.
but if you keep your MMR from ever raising, you will never reach your personal limit on the leaderboards. so in the long game its very exploitable.
i’m not saying people are going to actually do it to a significant extent, but the system should not allow for it either way.
the only thing needed to fix this is if you win with a deserter on your team, your MMR should still increase technically it should increase MORE because you won against unfair odds but there would be no good way to determine that so just leave it as a regular win.
It’s not an exploit if it is basically impossible. Winning 100% of your games for hundreds and hundreds (thousands if it goes for more than a month) is near impossible. Everyone looses. Even loosing 1 out of 5 (-3+1+1+1-1) is more possible. But then to be positive you need to go -3+1+1+1-1+1+1. This now means you have to play 357 games just to reach top 250 on LB’s, 35.7 games a day (10 days current), at 15 minutes a game (9 hours a day). I would not call that an exploit lol. This situation is like landing an astronaut on Pluto. Could it be done? Yes. Is anyone going to do it? No
If you indefinitely get -3 every match, you can’t grind the Lb’s. LB’s require you to get + points. Meaning you still have to win the next 3 matches to make up for your desertion and win 4 in a row to gain positive points….This would mean you have to uphold a 100% win ratio if you DC 1 in every 4 matches (making it 75% win). So after 100 wins & 25 losses(DC’s), you will only have 25 points on LB’s for 125 matches.
no you are in a team of 5 and take turns doing it. so you get -3 then +1+1+1+1. and start over
You are right. It could happen. If you can actually ALWAYS win (which you won’t unless you are one of the best teams). So now lets look at point spread. To be in the top 250 RIGHT NOW (10 days in), you need 51 points. This means you would need to have (using a -3+1+1+1+1 formula) 204 wins and 50 losses. Yes that is 254 games played with a perfect scenario just to make top 250. That is a fraction over 25 games a day. If you do an average wait time + match time you could just say 15 minutes a match. That is 6 hours 15 minutes non stop play time. So yes if you can find 5 people with no jobs, no school, and no lives that are GOOD ENOUGH to maintain a 100% ratio for 254 games, it is possible. In real life, you are talking about a situation that will not actually happen. Possible yes, improbable YES.
yea in the beginning its just a games grind
but eventually as MMRs become more accurate (from more games played) then people will start reaching personal maximums on the LB because they will be winning basically 50% of their matches.
but if you keep your MMR from ever raising, you will never reach your personal limit on the leaderboards. so in the long game its very exploitable.
i’m not saying people are going to actually do it to a significant extent, but the system should not allow for it either way.
the only thing needed to fix this is if you win with a deserter on your team, your MMR should still increase technically it should increase MORE because you won against unfair odds but there would be no good way to determine that so just leave it as a regular win.
Well, not more (as that would allow “exploit” by having someone who doesn’t care about their MMR at all to join and quickly drop off) but simply shouldn’t matter. While people queue together as a group, punishing everyone because one of them disconnected is just stupid and counterproductive.
Correct^^. Also maybe instead of “If 1 team player gets deserter status” then if loss “players looses no points” or if win" “Players gain normal points”. Maybe put a time on it? If you get deserter status and only gone for 15 seconds and your team looses, you should get negative points. Maybe, “If 1 team player gets deserter status” and “player is gone for X amount of time total (2 min?)” then if loss “team looses no points”.
This way it doesn’t just decide to not change points or MMR for the rest of the team based on desertion; that only was 20 seconds long. 2 minutes is probably too high then, maybe 60 seconds? 30 seconds cumulative for the player to receive desertion status and 60 for the team to receive forfeit status.
Does this imply intent of “do not ever queue as a party. EVER”? Because if someone disconnects you get whacked with deserter result?