Guild Wars 2

From all the MMOs I’ve played over the past decade I find the CC in GW2 to be the most frustrating of all.

This may seem odd at first since at first glance, CC in GW2 is of fairly short duration and not all classes have much of it. That’s true to a point, but only until you consider other factors.

1. CC duration vs. time to live.

In GW2 the time-to-live for your character depends heavily on your class and build. I’m going to base this off a 1v1 situation + some additional random AoE damage flying about (assume a node-team-fight with one guy targeting you). Soft glass-cannons (Thieves, Eles) may barely last 2 seconds in such a situation.

Compare that to say World of Warcraft, where every character could take a 10 second beat-down even while afk.

Now look at your 3 second fears or stuns in such a situation and compare it to the max. 6 second stuns/fears in WoW (with most being considerably shorter). GW2’s average CC duration is 100-150% of it lowest time-to-live character while WoW’s is 60% tops.

2. CC is fairly abundant on certain builds.

For the first few months of GW2, CC wasn’t a major focus for most builds. But now it is, especially in WvW where CC is the decisive key to many zerg fights. Nowadays PvP combat is all about CC your enemy as much as possible while beating him down with damage or conditions. Hammer Warriors are the pinnacle of this development but Necros and Mesmers aren’t that far off.

Fighting classes that have one or two minor CCs is fine. But fighting classes that have more…or just revolve around CC…is incredibly frustrating.

3. So much CC is AoE

This is probably the biggest difference to most previous MMOs. Most CC ins GW2 is AoE. Very little of it needs to actually be targeted as a specific target. Instead it’s enough to throw it in the general direction of your enemy and you will achieve the desired effect.

This is what makes node-fights and zerg battles such a clusterkitten and is a big reason why playing such content without Stability is very frustrating.

Ironically Stability, the only real counter to this CC spam, is most available to classes that are the biggest CC spamers.
__________________________________

If your favorite class has access to Stability you may disagree with my assessment. But play a class that has no such thing and I’m sure you’ll eventually reach the same conclusion.

Time to live for a regen bunker warrior is very high, possibly the highest (even if afk can live almost forever). They also have highest amounts of CC too (so called access to “perma-CC”, which in reality is not really perma. But then there is no “perma-evade” either.). And also highest access to stability (guardian is close).

Keep in mind. There’s only one stun break in WoW for most classes (trinket) on a 2 minute cooldown. You can have a lot more stun breaks in this game. Also, there’s stability to prevent stuns as well.

The best rpg experience I have is from DAoC before one infamous patch. In that patch, bow use was altered and nerfed ( my favorite part of the game ), cc was astronomically increased ( my hated part of the game ), shaman buffs ( my only strength as a noob ) became short range pbaoe (to s’port the stack). You should have seen the anger from the customers. The changes catered to a small group of wrong thinking PvPers. Many quit. I wanted to, but I was too new to give up so soon. I gave it a chance. The game still had life after those changes, but the damage to the community was felt.

In GW2 I play Ele mostly, so player proficiency with cc hurts. Stability means little because of low survivability. Ele cannot shake off damage fields, or sustain enough dodges to float through ZvZ dances. That is not the worst part. With such low survivability the Ele must overcome enemy invulnerability (a combat design side-effect of too much cc). My ranger has 12s of invulnerability, plus a pet that will take damage after that is gone. It is not just cc, but what becomes of a game that uses it.

Ryld.1340:

Keep in mind. There’s only one stun break in WoW for most classes (trinket) on a 2 minute cooldown. You can have a lot more stun breaks in this game. Also, there’s stability to prevent stuns as well.

WoW had interrupts to prevent most CC. A much better mechanic if you axe me.

Excalibur.9748:

Time to live for a regen bunker warrior is very high, possibly the highest (even if afk can live almost forever). They also have highest amounts of CC too (so called access to “perma-CC”, which in reality is not really perma. But then there is no “perma-evade” either.). And also highest access to stability (guardian is close).

Can you tell me how to make build with 30 in defense (for ire&“high stability”), 30 in tactics (for regen) and 30 in discipline (burst mastery, for “highest CC”), pretty please? I want 90 talent points too.

Dee Jay.2460:

From all the MMOs I’ve played over the past decade I find the CC in GW2 to be the most frustrating of all.

This may seem odd at first since at first glance, CC in GW2 is of fairly short duration and not all classes have much of it. That’s true to a point, but only until you consider other factors.

1. CC duration vs. time to live.

In GW2 the time-to-live for your character depends heavily on your class and build. I’m going to base this off a 1v1 situation + some additional random AoE damage flying about (assume a node-team-fight with one guy targeting you). Soft glass-cannons (Thieves, Eles) may barely last 2 seconds in such a situation.

Compare that to say World of Warcraft, where every character could take a 10 second beat-down even while afk.

Now look at your 3 second fears or stuns in such a situation and compare it to the max. 6 second stuns/fears in WoW (with most being considerably shorter). GW2’s average CC duration is 100-150% of it lowest time-to-live character while WoW’s is 60% tops.

2. CC is fairly abundant on certain builds.

For the first few months of GW2, CC wasn’t a major focus for most builds. But now it is, especially in WvW where CC is the decisive key to many zerg fights. Nowadays PvP combat is all about CC your enemy as much as possible while beating him down with damage or conditions. Hammer Warriors are the pinnacle of this development but Necros and Mesmers aren’t that far off.

Fighting classes that have one or two minor CCs is fine. But fighting classes that have more…or just revolve around CC…is incredibly frustrating.

3. So much CC is AoE

This is probably the biggest difference to most previous MMOs. Most CC ins GW2 is AoE. Very little of it needs to actually be targeted as a specific target. Instead it’s enough to throw it in the general direction of your enemy and you will achieve the desired effect.

This is what makes node-fights and zerg battles such a clusterkitten and is a big reason why playing such content without Stability is very frustrating.

Ironically Stability, the only real counter to this CC spam, is most available to classes that are the biggest CC spamers.
__________________________________

If your favorite class has access to Stability you may disagree with my assessment. But play a class that has no such thing and I’m sure you’ll eventually reach the same conclusion.

Thank you for taking the time to post this as I was going to post something similar to your post.

I would like to add this:

1. - CC damage too high

Control abilities are very powerful when used at the right time. In most games that I played, the tradeoff of using CC is damage. You’re already control the other character with your abilities but to do massive damage on top of that is…well unbalance in my opinion.

Dee Jay.2460:

From all the MMOs I’ve played over the past decade I find the CC in GW2 to be the most frustrating of all.

This may seem odd at first since at first glance, CC in GW2 is of fairly short duration and not all classes have much of it. That’s true to a point, but only until you consider other factors.

1. CC duration vs. time to live.

In GW2 the time-to-live for your character depends heavily on your class and build. I’m going to base this off a 1v1 situation + some additional random AoE damage flying about (assume a node-team-fight with one guy targeting you). Soft glass-cannons (Thieves, Eles) may barely last 2 seconds in such a situation.

Compare that to say World of Warcraft, where every character could take a 10 second beat-down even while afk.

Now look at your 3 second fears or stuns in such a situation and compare it to the max. 6 second stuns/fears in WoW (with most being considerably shorter). GW2’s average CC duration is 100-150% of it lowest time-to-live character while WoW’s is 60% tops.

2. CC is fairly abundant on certain builds.

For the first few months of GW2, CC wasn’t a major focus for most builds. But now it is, especially in WvW where CC is the decisive key to many zerg fights. Nowadays PvP combat is all about CC your enemy as much as possible while beating him down with damage or conditions. Hammer Warriors are the pinnacle of this development but Necros and Mesmers aren’t that far off.

Fighting classes that have one or two minor CCs is fine. But fighting classes that have more…or just revolve around CC…is incredibly frustrating.

3. So much CC is AoE

This is probably the biggest difference to most previous MMOs. Most CC ins GW2 is AoE. Very little of it needs to actually be targeted as a specific target. Instead it’s enough to throw it in the general direction of your enemy and you will achieve the desired effect.

This is what makes node-fights and zerg battles such a clusterkitten and is a big reason why playing such content without Stability is very frustrating.

Ironically Stability, the only real counter to this CC spam, is most available to classes that are the biggest CC spamers.
__________________________________

If your favorite class has access to Stability you may disagree with my assessment. But play a class that has no such thing and I’m sure you’ll eventually reach the same conclusion.

I sympathize. The longer the CC is, the bigger the wind-up should be, right, so you can dodge or interrupt? But that’s not how GW2 works mostly. Hammer on Warrior is actually one of the most balanced CC weapons because all of its big CCs (2s knockdown, 2s stun) have very visible cast animations. But mace is unbalanced – 3s stun that’s instant cast? Doom (Necro DS #3) is also absurd, 2.5s instant cast fear and requires even less skill to land than skull crack. I’m not saying these skills are OP, just that they’re badly designed.

Lockdown CC, like anything with at least 1s duration, should have at least 1s visible cast time. Interrupt CC, where the duration is like 0.5s, can stick with lower cast times.

Alys Florent.1359:

Dee Jay.2460:

From all the MMOs I’ve played over the past decade I find the CC in GW2 to be the most frustrating of all.

This may seem odd at first since at first glance, CC in GW2 is of fairly short duration and not all classes have much of it. That’s true to a point, but only until you consider other factors.

1. CC duration vs. time to live.

In GW2 the time-to-live for your character depends heavily on your class and build. I’m going to base this off a 1v1 situation + some additional random AoE damage flying about (assume a node-team-fight with one guy targeting you). Soft glass-cannons (Thieves, Eles) may barely last 2 seconds in such a situation.

Compare that to say World of Warcraft, where every character could take a 10 second beat-down even while afk.

Now look at your 3 second fears or stuns in such a situation and compare it to the max. 6 second stuns/fears in WoW (with most being considerably shorter). GW2’s average CC duration is 100-150% of it lowest time-to-live character while WoW’s is 60% tops.

2. CC is fairly abundant on certain builds.

For the first few months of GW2, CC wasn’t a major focus for most builds. But now it is, especially in WvW where CC is the decisive key to many zerg fights. Nowadays PvP combat is all about CC your enemy as much as possible while beating him down with damage or conditions. Hammer Warriors are the pinnacle of this development but Necros and Mesmers aren’t that far off.

Fighting classes that have one or two minor CCs is fine. But fighting classes that have more…or just revolve around CC…is incredibly frustrating.

3. So much CC is AoE

This is probably the biggest difference to most previous MMOs. Most CC ins GW2 is AoE. Very little of it needs to actually be targeted as a specific target. Instead it’s enough to throw it in the general direction of your enemy and you will achieve the desired effect.

This is what makes node-fights and zerg battles such a clusterkitten and is a big reason why playing such content without Stability is very frustrating.

Ironically Stability, the only real counter to this CC spam, is most available to classes that are the biggest CC spamers.
__________________________________

If your favorite class has access to Stability you may disagree with my assessment. But play a class that has no such thing and I’m sure you’ll eventually reach the same conclusion.

I sympathize. The longer the CC is, the bigger the wind-up should be, right, so you can dodge or interrupt? But that’s not how GW2 works mostly. Hammer on Warrior is actually one of the most balanced CC weapons because all of its big CCs (2s knockdown, 2s stun) have very visible cast animations. But mace is unbalanced – 3s stun that’s instant cast? Doom (Necro DS #3) is also absurd, 2.5s instant cast fear and requires even less skill to land than skull crack. I’m not saying these skills are OP, just that they’re badly designed.

Lockdown CC, like anything with at least 1s duration, should have at least 1s visible cast time. Interrupt CC, where the duration is like 0.5s, can stick with lower cast times.

The Hammer Warrior CC is balanced in terms of animation, however, the amount of CC that this weapon gets is over the top. I would say #4 and #5 is good/fine but the burst skill needs a longer cooldown. An 8 sec cooldown for a range aoe stun is…stupid.

MIrra.3604:

The Hammer Warrior CC is balanced in terms of animation, however, the amount of CC that this weapon gets is over the top. I would say #4 and #5 is good/fine but the burst skill needs a longer cooldown. An 8 sec cooldown for a range aoe stun is…stupid.

No, burst is fine as is. Need some rework to remove blind with cleansing ire before landing, though.

I don’t really have any problems with CC hammer warriors. Then again, I usually have a stun break on my utility bar no matter what build or profession I play. By the time I stun break I can dodge out and go cra cra CRAZY on them. Hammer wars with powerful burst are very squishy. Once you break out of their stun lock they are toast.

I doesn’t matter that cc is short duration because there is no immuity or diminshing returns. Also, almost no games have long duration cc anymore so it doesn’t really matter that its short. Short is the new standard. Sensible designers understand that being chained CC is not fun for the player and is bad gameplay. Leeto wanna be e-sports game designers I guess think its just fine and dandy to be able to theorectically lock someone in place until they are dead if stun breaks are down. Its your fault for being a baddie!

I must not agree with you.

Stealth and AI Spam its the most frustating thing in GW2.

Kwll.1468:

I doesn’t matter that cc is short duration because there is no immuity or diminshing returns. Also, almost no games have long duration cc anymore so it doesn’t really matter that its short. Short is the new standard. Sensible designers understand that being chained CC is not fun for the player and is bad gameplay. Leeto wanna be e-sports game designers I guess think its just fine and dandy to be able to theorectically lock someone in place until they are dead if stun breaks are down. Its your fault for being a baddie!

I… think I understood what you typed? May want to edit before posting. lol

GankSinatra.2653:

Ryld.1340:

Keep in mind. There’s only one stun break in WoW for most classes (trinket) on a 2 minute cooldown. You can have a lot more stun breaks in this game. Also, there’s stability to prevent stuns as well.

WoW had interrupts to prevent most CC. A much better mechanic if you axe me.

What kind of counter argument is this? He’s claiming that gw2 has stability and more stunbreak overall to prevent cc. And you respond with wow has interrupts to prevent most CC? So basically, wow had CC to prevent most CC? I just don’t get it.

Dee Jay.2460:

Ironically Stability, the only real counter to this CC spam, is most available to classes that are the biggest CC spamers.
__________________________________

If your favorite class has access to Stability you may disagree with my assessment. But play a class that has no such thing and I’m sure you’ll eventually reach the same conclusion.

Engineers. Necromancers. They don’t have high access to stability but have a ton of ways to CC, so you’re wrong.

Part of the problem is there are no diminishing returns on CC and even if you use a a stun break, you can just get restunned a second later from a different skill and this time you have no escape.

Other pvp games gives you a few seconds of CC immunity immediately after using a stun break type move. The stun breaks can’t keep pace with the application rate of CCs.

Zzod.5791:

Part of the problem is there are no diminishing returns on CC and even if you use a a stun break, you can just get restunned a second later from a different skill and this time you have no escape.

Other pvp games gives you a few seconds of CC immunity immediately after using a stun break type move. The stun breaks can’t keep pace with the application rate of CCs.

Isn’t that more dependent on the build though? Taking all stun breaks for your utility is just not going to end well for you. You might be able to break out of chained CC but you won’t be doing much in the way of damage.

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

Well in wow pvp, you gained CC immunity after being cced 3 times in a row. Approximatly: 8sec/4sec/2sec. And than, you gained CC immunity to only ONE type of cc which means it’s still leave you vulnerable to a lot of other type of CC.

For example, if you got stunned 3 times in a row. It means you will gain cc immunity during 15 seconds to only stun. It still leaves you vulnerable to fear, cyclone, polymorph, silence, and interrupt which has btw no diminishing return in wow, and many more. Overall, it means it is pretty much possible to stunlock someone until his
death in wow. Here’s a more accurate diminishing returns in wow:

http://wowpedia.org/Diminishing_returns

So really, I don’t get gw2and Wow comparison in this thread.

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

I think part of this is how infant-like the actual PvP meta is right now, compared to where GW1 developed to. Look at the very beginning of any game, and things are pretty laughably bad when you look at them from a few years later. In GW1 it was a bit less pronounced because most of the meta was just a big cycle and had relatively little forward-progress (although I’m sure GvG was different), but you can really see this in LoL. Look at what people did in/before Season 1. It was hilariously bad.

The other part is that people just don’t think that much. Everything is more a case of trying to find and play a better FotM OP setup than your opponents, or being better at it than them. Until very recently there was little to no difference between teams. Now you are finally seeing a meaningful difference in the team composition.

wellllll……….. In GW1 there were builds that were hard counters to other builds….. GW2 follows the same suite.

Counter CC with stability or your own CC. Or simply LoS and use condi durations to kill your attacker.

If your opponent is so invested in CC they are going to be slow , high toughness, high vitality. I suggest not doing a 1v1, rather get help from a teammate. There is no shame in that since PvP in this game is “team” based.

wait… i just remembered …. blind works too

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

wellllll……….. In GW1 there were builds that were hard counters to other builds….. GW2 follows the same suite.

Counter CC with stability or your own CC. Or simply LoS and use condi durations to kill your attacker.

If your opponent is so invested in CC they are going to be slow , high toughness, high vitality. I suggest not doing a 1v1, rather get help from a teammate. There is no shame in that since PvP in this game is “team” based.

“Stability? What is that?” – 90% of Necros. Why? Because we get one source of stability, if we are power builds that are happy with dropping 30 points into a trait line.

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

People didn’t complain because was so much melee hate in GW1 (blindspam, hexspam, wards, aegis…list goes on) that landing your KDs through all that wasn’t easy to do.

Bhawb.7408:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

wellllll……….. In GW1 there were builds that were hard counters to other builds….. GW2 follows the same suite.

Counter CC with stability or your own CC. Or simply LoS and use condi durations to kill your attacker.

If your opponent is so invested in CC they are going to be slow , high toughness, high vitality. I suggest not doing a 1v1, rather get help from a teammate. There is no shame in that since PvP in this game is “team” based.

“Stability? What is that?” – 90% of Necros. Why? Because we get one source of stability, if we are power builds that are happy with dropping 30 points into a trait line.

agreed.necros have like no stability. same with mesmers. we have 1 utility for stability and its a mantra and the stability only lasts 2 seconds.

with the cc heavy meta u get thrown around like a ping pong ball without the chance to even get up. if u get stunned and your stunbreakers are on cooldown u are in big trouble as after the stun and interrupts u have no way to block the knockbacks and knockdowns.
then u wanna get up and finally pop the stability and boom interrupted and boom next stun and then boom knockback….
once knocked back u should have a way to be immune to cc or interrupts so u can at least react and attack or at least heal. perma interrupts and knockdowns and perma fears are very very frustrating.

Stuns/cc are the meta. Adapt your builds, evolve, and worst come to worst and you don’t like it, don’t worry; it’ll change soon.

from a similar thread about 3 months ago:

Jayce.5632:

no diminishing returns on CC, just that you should not be CC again until the initial CC effect has run its course. this way should require more coordination to lock down someone.

Zzod.5791:

Part of the problem is there are no diminishing returns on CC and even if you use a a stun break, you can just get restunned a second later from a different skill and this time you have no escape.

Other pvp games gives you a few seconds of CC immunity immediately after using a stun break type move. The stun breaks can’t keep pace with the application rate of CCs.

This. As a Rifle engineer it very frustrating to fight some enemies who pop Stability and become immune to knockbacks for 4-8 seconds while I lost the count on the number of times I was stunned, use my stun breaker and before the animation is even over I am stunned again and killed.

Thieves with their stun-and-pistol-whip-that-makes-them-invulnerable-WHILE-they-attack are one of the biggest offenders, in particular because they can throw their stuns from stealth. How do we do dodge killing moves like stuns if we cannot see them? A spamable event?

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

About why people are complaining about Warriors when GW1 had them; No healers.

About why there are no counters; There are counters. Mantra of Resolve for mesmers is a great counter to repeated stuns because you can stun break a thousand times. Engineers can deal with it as well and they don’t have stability, Guardians are also good against these guys due to their repeated blocks and blinds, Thieves can also counter them but a well timed stun can put them in a bad place, Rangers can run Rampage as one, Eles can use focus to add another layer of defence against stuns, etc.
It’s all about whether people want to play those speccs or not.

Fact is, counterplay by players is so rare, all they want is to nerf things so that they can deal with them 1v1.

you know… gw1 had…

selan.8354:

Bhawb.7408:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

wellllll……….. In GW1 there were builds that were hard counters to other builds….. GW2 follows the same suite.

Counter CC with stability or your own CC. Or simply LoS and use condi durations to kill your attacker.

If your opponent is so invested in CC they are going to be slow , high toughness, high vitality. I suggest not doing a 1v1, rather get help from a teammate. There is no shame in that since PvP in this game is “team” based.

“Stability? What is that?” – 90% of Necros. Why? Because we get one source of stability, if we are power builds that are happy with dropping 30 points into a trait line.

agreed.necros have like no stability. same with mesmers. we have 1 utility for stability and its a mantra and the stability only lasts 2 seconds.

with the cc heavy meta u get thrown around like a ping pong ball without the chance to even get up. if u get stunned and your stunbreakers are on cooldown u are in big trouble as after the stun and interrupts u have no way to block the knockbacks and knockdowns.
then u wanna get up and finally pop the stability and boom interrupted and boom next stun and then boom knockback….
once knocked back u should have a way to be immune to cc or interrupts so u can at least react and attack or at least heal. perma interrupts and knockdowns and perma fears are very very frustrating.

Necros have Foot In The Grave. Try making a build focused on Death Shroud. I can’t say for certain that it will be effective seeing as I don’t play the class, but I have encountered Necros with it that are very hard to focus down.

This is just an outsider looking in but lets say you go 30 into Soul Reaping and take the traits 2, 7, and 11. You’ll have very frequent access to stability, and even a minor trait that gives you Spectral Armor at 50% HP. Combine that with a stun break and you would be fairly resistant to CC. Make it a power build and you’ll probably be able to overwhelm Healing Signet.

As I said though, just a theory. I have no interest in playing Necro, I just know how their mechanics work so that I can counter them as a Warrior. Yes, you do have to drop 30 points and do Power. That’s counter play. Do you want to be able to run all conditions and be able to counter CC as well? Just because you don’t want to change your build doesn’t mean viable counters don’t exist.

Dirame.8521:

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

About why people are complaining about Warriors when GW1 had them; No healers.

About why there are no counters; There are counters. Mantra of Resolve for mesmers is a great counter to repeated stuns because you can stun break a thousand times. Engineers can deal with it as well and they don’t have stability, Guardians are also good against these guys due to their repeated blocks and blinds, Thieves can also counter them but a well timed stun can put them in a bad place, Rangers can run Rampage as one, Eles can use focus to add another layer of defence against stuns, etc.
It’s all about whether people want to play those speccs or not.

Fact is, counterplay by players is so rare, all they want is to nerf things so that they can deal with them 1v1.

I do agree that no healers does change things a bit, but the basic concept is still there. Something is killing you? Then bring something to make that harder. What I’m seeing is “this is killing my current build, nerf it.”

You named several good counters and my whole point in my “PR” campaign for Warriors is that many of the people calling for nerfs are not interested in balance, they just Warriors to go back to being a free kill. What’s even more frustrating is that some of these people are the same ones who were always talking about how much they hated the condition meta.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Dirame.8521:

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

About why people are complaining about Warriors when GW1 had them; No healers.

About why there are no counters; There are counters. Mantra of Resolve for mesmers is a great counter to repeated stuns because you can stun break a thousand times. Engineers can deal with it as well and they don’t have stability, Guardians are also good against these guys due to their repeated blocks and blinds, Thieves can also counter them but a well timed stun can put them in a bad place, Rangers can run Rampage as one, Eles can use focus to add another layer of defence against stuns, etc.
It’s all about whether people want to play those speccs or not.

Fact is, counterplay by players is so rare, all they want is to nerf things so that they can deal with them 1v1.

I do agree that no healers does change things a bit, but the basic concept is still there. Something is killing you? Then bring something to make that harder. What I’m seeing is “this is killing my current build, nerf it.”

You named several good counters and my whole point in my “PR” campaign for Warriors is that many of the people calling for nerfs are not interested in balance, they just Warriors to go back to being a free kill. What’s even more frustrating is that some of these people are the same ones who were always talking about how much they hated the condition meta.

Sure, lets have a honest discussion on how to balance Warrior CC pain train.

What is the standard spec for CC warrior? A variation of X/10/30/X/15(min). They have high toughness, high crit damage, low to medium crit chance, etc. Basically, they sacrifice damage for the ability to CC. Wrong. Their burst line gives them 30% crit damage and with Unsuspecting Foe 50% vs stunned target, a player can ignore the need to have high crit chance to DPS. I don’t think it is balanced when you can have your cake and eat it too…

Solution to this?

1 – Move Unsuspecting Foe to either master trait or buff it and make it a grandmaster trait.

2 – Swap Fast Hand with Building Momentum. This makes sense since Building Momentum is tied to burst skills.

Sifu.6527:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Dirame.8521:

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

About why people are complaining about Warriors when GW1 had them; No healers.

About why there are no counters; There are counters. Mantra of Resolve for mesmers is a great counter to repeated stuns because you can stun break a thousand times. Engineers can deal with it as well and they don’t have stability, Guardians are also good against these guys due to their repeated blocks and blinds, Thieves can also counter them but a well timed stun can put them in a bad place, Rangers can run Rampage as one, Eles can use focus to add another layer of defence against stuns, etc.
It’s all about whether people want to play those speccs or not.

Fact is, counterplay by players is so rare, all they want is to nerf things so that they can deal with them 1v1.

I do agree that no healers does change things a bit, but the basic concept is still there. Something is killing you? Then bring something to make that harder. What I’m seeing is “this is killing my current build, nerf it.”

You named several good counters and my whole point in my “PR” campaign for Warriors is that many of the people calling for nerfs are not interested in balance, they just Warriors to go back to being a free kill. What’s even more frustrating is that some of these people are the same ones who were always talking about how much they hated the condition meta.

Sure, lets have a honest discussion on how to balance Warrior CC pain train.

What is the standard spec for CC warrior? A variation of X/10/30/X/15(min). They have high toughness, high crit damage, low to medium crit chance, etc. Basically, they sacrifice damage for the ability to CC. Wrong. Their burst line gives them 30% crit damage and with Unsuspecting Foe 50% vs stunned target, a player can ignore the need to have high crit chance to DPS. I don’t think it is balanced when you can have your cake and eat it too…

Solution to this?

1 – Move Unsuspecting Foe to either master trait or buff it and make it a grandmaster trait.

2 – Swap Fast Hand with Building Momentum. This makes sense since Building Momentum is tied to burst skills.

So your solution is to make CC not worth running. CC alone isn’t what makes Warriors good currently. What keeps us viable is the fact that we have decent DPS, but less than a Thief, and decent sustain, but not as much as a guardian.

Yes our hammer builds have decent damage, but it’s DPS over a longer duration. A Thief can still burst down a target much faster. We have enough armor/hp/regen to stay in a team fight, but if you think that makes us as tough to kill as a Guardian you’re sorely mistaken. There’s a reason you don’t see any (successful) Banner Regen Warriors playing mid bunker.

Reduce any part of these builds too much and suddenly the class falls back into being not worth bringing on your team. Unsuspecting Foe after the Sigil of Paralyzation fix will not be all that strong. It will be a major hit to both Hammer + LB builds and Mace/Shield + GS builds. It may not be possible to land that last hit of 100b because Skull Crack will last around 3.45 seconds and the channel time is 3.5 seconds, factor in the weapon swap time and unless the guy stands there after the stun ends that last blow will rarely hit.

I have not been seeing any reasonable suggestions, only ones that would send Warrior back to how they were pre-buffs, worthless. They aren’t interested in balance or counter play, they just want to be able to run the same build they always have and not have to adapt in any way.

Use blind. (Engineers, Necromancers, Thieves)
Or snare+condition damage. (engineers, Rangers, necromancers, mesmers, elementalist)
Or stability (Guardians, Necromancers, Warriors)
Or stun more (necromancers, warriors)

NornBearPig.9814:

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

People didn’t complain because was so much melee hate in GW1 (blindspam, hexspam, wards, aegis…list goes on) that landing your KDs through all that wasn’t easy to do.

Team comps were also larger. The opposite happened where heavy melee teams were able to spec to counter the hex/condi pressure team builds. There was just more option for team builds in GW1, so even FOTM changes didn’t completely dominate.

Krakah.3582:

NornBearPig.9814:

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

People didn’t complain because was so much melee hate in GW1 (blindspam, hexspam, wards, aegis…list goes on) that landing your KDs through all that wasn’t easy to do.

Team comps were also larger. The opposite happened where heavy melee teams were able to spec to counter the hex/condi pressure team builds. There was just more option for team builds in GW1, so even FOTM changes didn’t completely dominate.

You can still have the same dynamic though. Conditions are still strong and have a place on a team, Warrior has a place because they are strong against conditions, Thieves or Mesmers have a place because they are strong against Warrior.

If more power builds come into play Warriors will be forced to start bringing skills like Endure Pain, which means they’ll have to give up utilities like Bulls Charge or Sig of Stamina, which means you either have to sacrifice a knock down or a condition cleanse. Mesmers should be jumping with joy that Warrior got buffed, not only did they mitigate conditions they also have tons of counters to control skills. Power Thieves can easily overwhelm the Healing Signet and assassinate the Warrior in a team fight.

Could there be more counters? Sure, in a perfect game every class would have a build that counters another build. But until that unreachable time you can be satisfied with the fact that you can bring someone to counter a strong build. I can see a team composition being: Necro, Warrior, Mesmer/Thief, Guardian, Choice. That pretty much means every class has a place except perhaps Ele. If Ele gets buffed to be able to fill a home bunker role then it would probably see play as well. You can argue about Engi but it’s certainly not useless.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Necros have Foot In The Grave. Try making a build focused on Death Shroud. I can’t say for certain that it will be effective seeing as I don’t play the class, but I have encountered Necros with it that are very hard to focus down.

This is just an outsider looking in but lets say you go 30 into Soul Reaping and take the traits 2, 7, and 11. You’ll have very frequent access to stability, and even a minor trait that gives you Spectral Armor at 50% HP. Combine that with a stun break and you would be fairly resistant to CC. Make it a power build and you’ll probably be able to overwhelm Healing Signet.

As I said though, just a theory. I have no interest in playing Necro, I just know how their mechanics work so that I can counter them as a Warrior. Yes, you do have to drop 30 points and do Power. That’s counter play. Do you want to be able to run all conditions and be able to counter CC as well? Just because you don’t want to change your build doesn’t mean viable counters don’t exist.

You shouldn’t need to spend 30 trait points and play one very specific build to be able to play PvP. That is an option to deal with CC, it’d be nice if we could do more than be forced into a single build type because we have no other ways to handle CC.

And this shouldn’t be true for just Necros (elementalists know what its like being forced into one build), you shouldn’t have only one option to deal with something, that isn’t skill based, it isn’t in-game counterplay, it isn’t fun.

yet you have classes with a weapon which is all about CC and still is very lacking; Staff ele.

It arguably has the most CC in the game yet its performance in a teamfight is decent at best, when singled out then you are a free bag. (in this case glory)

CC is not the problem, the problem is; it isnt “balanced” like eles. Warriors AoE stun on hammer on a ridiculous small CD, will land everytime with that radius. Yet, ele only have access to a conditional cc cage in which targets have to go through in order to get CCed for 1/3 the duration, 1/4 the damage, and 5 times the CD ( 40 seconds CD, damage is less than an air autoattack, aka really bad, and lastly 1 second stun)

Also, instant mace 3 secs stun on that CD? Air staff #3 will miss 11/10 times and has triple the CD….go figures…..

Yet that same warrior will tank it all, while the staff ele will blow in a sec, go figures……

Anyways, like I said, CC should have trade offs, give all those CC heavy classes the staff ele treatment and you will see how it becomes bearable. I have yet to see someone legitimately complain about staff eles other than when they are on the same team, pulling them down.

Bhawb.7408:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Necros have Foot In The Grave. Try making a build focused on Death Shroud. I can’t say for certain that it will be effective seeing as I don’t play the class, but I have encountered Necros with it that are very hard to focus down.

This is just an outsider looking in but lets say you go 30 into Soul Reaping and take the traits 2, 7, and 11. You’ll have very frequent access to stability, and even a minor trait that gives you Spectral Armor at 50% HP. Combine that with a stun break and you would be fairly resistant to CC. Make it a power build and you’ll probably be able to overwhelm Healing Signet.

As I said though, just a theory. I have no interest in playing Necro, I just know how their mechanics work so that I can counter them as a Warrior. Yes, you do have to drop 30 points and do Power. That’s counter play. Do you want to be able to run all conditions and be able to counter CC as well? Just because you don’t want to change your build doesn’t mean viable counters don’t exist.

You shouldn’t need to spend 30 trait points and play one very specific build to be able to play PvP. That is an option to deal with CC, it’d be nice if we could do more than be forced into a single build type because we have no other ways to handle CC.

And this shouldn’t be true for just Necros (elementalists know what its like being forced into one build), you shouldn’t have only one option to deal with something, that isn’t skill based, it isn’t in-game counterplay, it isn’t fun.

Warriors spec 30 points into 2 trees to do that CC and have condition mitigation, yet specing 30 into 1 tree that is good for power, which also counters our healing doesn’t seem too unreasonable. As for the whole having only one option thing…once again sound like things need to be buffed then, not nerfed. I HAVE to use Zerker Stance and Cleansing Ire, would I want to use something more “fun?” Sure, but then I would get destroyed by conditions and would have no one to blame but myself.

Or they could fix warriors, and basically every class that has very limited options.

I’m not arguing that warriors need to be nerfed or buffed, or CC needs to be nerfed or buffed. I’m saying that certain classes simply have far too limited of ways to deal with it. No one should have to spec their entire build to be able to play the game, which is what Necros have to do if we get clipped by a single CC ability. I shouldn’t have to spend 30 trait points (which does not give me a very strong build in general) just so I can expect to be able to click my skills and actually expect them to cast.

Same can be said of a number of mechanics. There are a few things (AoE, conditions, CC, buffing) that can be mindlessly spammed too easily with almost no counterplay depending on what class you are playing. That isn’t good game design, and it isn’t fun.

Lol. On my spvp warrior I have 6 forms of CC which I think is pretty absurd.

My damage is not great though. I actually need someone with me to do more than frustrate anyone.

Bhawb.7408:

Or they could fix warriors, and basically every class that has very limited options.

I’m not arguing that warriors need to be nerfed or buffed, or CC needs to be nerfed or buffed. I’m saying that certain classes simply have far too limited of ways to deal with it. No one should have to spec their entire build to be able to play the game, which is what Necros have to do if we get clipped by a single CC ability. I shouldn’t have to spend 30 trait points (which does not give me a very strong build in general) just so I can expect to be able to click my skills and actually expect them to cast.

Same can be said of a number of mechanics. There are a few things (AoE, conditions, CC, buffing) that can be mindlessly spammed too easily with almost no counterplay depending on what class you are playing. That isn’t good game design, and it isn’t fun.

By that logic then Necros and Spirit Rangers need another huge nerf, because as a Warrior I need to set up my whole build so as not to be killed by conditions. Do you want the ability to be able to counter everything in a single build? The whole point of combat like this is that you’ll never be able to beat everything, you’re going to always have a weakness, as Warrior does.

Of course you’ll have a weakness. But warriors actually get a tool, in one easy form to help them deal with that: Berzerker Stance. It isn’t a full counter, but it still gives you a long duration immunity to your biggest counters. That is an easy access, at least semi-skill based setup that involves play/counterplay on both sides. That is good design.

What do Necros get? We get ONE trait 30 deep into Soul Reaping to help deal with CC. What we need is an easier way to handle it without completely kittening our build. I don’t want a full counter to you where I press a button and everyone dies. I just want something that can be put into a build, with a reasonable cost (like a utility slot, because thats what those things are for), without gimping my entire build.

Bhawb.7408:

What do Necros get? We get ONE trait 30 deep into Soul Reaping to help deal with CC. What we need is an easier way to handle it without completely kittening our build. I don’t want a full counter to you where I press a button and everyone dies. I just want something that can be put into a build, with a reasonable cost (like a utility slot, because thats what those things are for), without gimping my entire build.

So necros want to stay condispam machines AND have tools against CC pressure in same time? Yes, totally makes sense.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Sifu.6527:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Dirame.8521:

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s odd, hammer Warriors were able to do basically the exact same thing in GW1 and I don’t remember there being all that much fuss over it. In GW1 I had a build that had around 4 knockdowns in a row. I had also mastered “quarter-knocking,” timing your knockdowns so that your target doesn’t even have enough time to cast a 1/4 second spell.

If used perfectly I could kill most light armored classes in one combo. Rather than complaining people just started bringing skills to counter me. GW1 always had problems balance wise, but it was always playable and even enjoyable. You know why this is? Counter-Play. Whenever something became the “meta” you would see people shortly after posting a build designed to counter it. I hardly see any of that going on in GW2 except for the builds Warriors are currently running to counter conditions.

About why people are complaining about Warriors when GW1 had them; No healers.

About why there are no counters; There are counters. Mantra of Resolve for mesmers is a great counter to repeated stuns because you can stun break a thousand times. Engineers can deal with it as well and they don’t have stability, Guardians are also good against these guys due to their repeated blocks and blinds, Thieves can also counter them but a well timed stun can put them in a bad place, Rangers can run Rampage as one, Eles can use focus to add another layer of defence against stuns, etc.
It’s all about whether people want to play those speccs or not.

Fact is, counterplay by players is so rare, all they want is to nerf things so that they can deal with them 1v1.

I do agree that no healers does change things a bit, but the basic concept is still there. Something is killing you? Then bring something to make that harder. What I’m seeing is “this is killing my current build, nerf it.”

You named several good counters and my whole point in my “PR” campaign for Warriors is that many of the people calling for nerfs are not interested in balance, they just Warriors to go back to being a free kill. What’s even more frustrating is that some of these people are the same ones who were always talking about how much they hated the condition meta.

Sure, lets have a honest discussion on how to balance Warrior CC pain train.

What is the standard spec for CC warrior? A variation of X/10/30/X/15(min). They have high toughness, high crit damage, low to medium crit chance, etc. Basically, they sacrifice damage for the ability to CC. Wrong. Their burst line gives them 30% crit damage and with Unsuspecting Foe 50% vs stunned target, a player can ignore the need to have high crit chance to DPS. I don’t think it is balanced when you can have your cake and eat it too…

Solution to this?

1 – Move Unsuspecting Foe to either master trait or buff it and make it a grandmaster trait.

2 – Swap Fast Hand with Building Momentum. This makes sense since Building Momentum is tied to burst skills.

So your solution is to make CC not worth running. CC alone isn’t what makes Warriors good currently. What keeps us viable is the fact that we have decent DPS, but less than a Thief, and decent sustain, but not as much as a guardian.

Yes our hammer builds have decent damage, but it’s DPS over a longer duration. A Thief can still burst down a target much faster. We have enough armor/hp/regen to stay in a team fight, but if you think that makes us as tough to kill as a Guardian you’re sorely mistaken. There’s a reason you don’t see any (successful) Banner Regen Warriors playing mid bunker.

Reduce any part of these builds too much and suddenly the class falls back into being not worth bringing on your team. Unsuspecting Foe after the Sigil of Paralyzation fix will not be all that strong. It will be a major hit to both Hammer + LB builds and Mace/Shield + GS builds. It may not be possible to land that last hit of 100b because Skull Crack will last around 3.45 seconds and the channel time is 3.5 seconds, factor in the weapon swap time and unless the guy stands there after the stun ends that last blow will rarely hit.

I have not been seeing any reasonable suggestions, only ones that would send Warrior back to how they were pre-buffs, worthless. They aren’t interested in balance or counter play, they just want to be able to run the same build they always have and not have to adapt in any way.

My idea for nerfing them is to reduce their stability uptime and maybe make Beserker stance less than 100% (80-90% would be alright I think). People may stop playing them but, they would still be very good against the classes they are meant to counter only with a shorter time to pressure them.

Bhawb.7408:

Of course you’ll have a weakness. But warriors actually get a tool, in one easy form to help them deal with that: Berzerker Stance. It isn’t a full counter, but it still gives you a long duration immunity to your biggest counters. That is an easy access, at least semi-skill based setup that involves play/counterplay on both sides. That is good design.

What do Necros get? We get ONE trait 30 deep into Soul Reaping to help deal with CC. What we need is an easier way to handle it without completely kittening our build. I don’t want a full counter to you where I press a button and everyone dies. I just want something that can be put into a build, with a reasonable cost (like a utility slot, because thats what those things are for), without gimping my entire build.

Necros have blinds, they have immob, they have Warhorn daze, they have chill, they have boon corruption, they have an elite that can continuously blind the target or nukes the target or knocks targets down. Necros don’t “need” anything. Just like you said, if someone just place Well of Corruption on their bar, all the stabilities that the Warrior has would go the way of the dodo. They don’t need to go 30 points in Soul Reaping to beat Warriors.

It’s funny how the class most useless in the condition meta is the counter to the new stun meta: Mesmer. My mesmer has tons of invulnerability due to blurred frenzy, use it when you see a warrior leaping at you. You can also delay the iLeap on sword to blink and kite the warrior. You have teleports (staff, sword), decoy and block (scepter), or even stealth on torch (which is very undervalued), a 2s stun on pistol with a good damage phantasm…

Shatter builds are the counter to warrior. The only thing that’s hard to deal with is their high toughness and healing capabilities. It’s just a matter of time before they go down.

I also have a warrior and especially in WvW it’s a one man army. It is stronger than the D/D has ever been. I have 3.1k armor, 90+% crit dmg, and 3.1k power. With unsuspecting foe, I crit a lot with my hammer. I can literally 3 shot certain classes if they used the invulnerability skill. Earth Shake 6k, Backbreaker 5-6k, Staggering Blow or number 2, BAM 4k. Try to survive this, especially since 2 and F1 can be repeated very often.

Together with condi immunity/stability/condition clears and blocks, this spec is almost unbeatable 1v1. I think there are other strong builds out there but I have never felt stronger than on my warrior nowadays.