Guild Wars 2

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

edit: added boldness to important line.

another edit to address a weird argument people have been using:

Many people who see this change as a buff have commented that elementalists have plenty of other cleanses, and that elementalists won’t just be standing still taking damage. This is true, but irrelevant.

Why? because why would the change to DS be a buff just because elementalists can use many other condition cleanses? Why would it be a buff because the elementalist player could do something to prevent themselves from being damaged?
Are you saying elementalist players who uses DS right now do not have access to all those other condition cleanses, or that right now with the old DS, elementalist players CANNOT do something to prevent themselves from being damaged?

In order for a change to be a buff, then it must be that with all things equal (aside from the one changed trait), the new trait is more powerful. But the new DS clearly isn’t more powerful, due to the many reasons I’ve mentioned. This new DS gives extra cleanses, but why would you need cleanse if you never had any conditions to begin with? Think about it.

Condi reaper will eat ele in max 1 min. Bye Bye ele, so long! If they change diamond skin to this kitten thing, than rev and reaper eats ele in seconds! I know what I’m saying, I have a condi reaper, and have aura ele to.
BUt I don’t care, my main is DH and Reaper so F yeah!

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

Mirrodin.8729:

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

FA scepter builds are my specialty. I’m not here to talk about the viability of bunker builds. I’m here to ask why people have this idea that the nerf is a buff.

Mirrodin.8729:

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

There is nothing to suck it up, I will jump to my thief and kitten people.

They will be the king of this new META until whinerslike you, whine enough force to be nerfed.

Watch out everybody complained about OPness of Ele a Thief coming after you to teach what it means to be OP.

Anyone claiming new DS is a buff has no idea what they are talking about, plain and simple. New DS is complete trash for the exact reasons listed, but that was ANet’s plan anyways. When they identify a trait as ‘we dont like’ or ‘people whine about that’, they don’t really ‘change’ it, they just get rid of it. Now they obviously can’t just delete the trait, and a flat out obvious nerf will create a kittenstorm, so instead they turn it into garbage but give it a more generous hp treshold, so for someone uninformed it looks like they tried to keep it viable.

Truth be told though, any decent condi build will just rip through that new DS before it even cleanses a 2nd condition, so comparing a trait that used to potentially neglect an entire initial burst of conditions to a trait that now cleanses 1 condition and then you die.. well, doesn’t look like much of a buff to me.

Clearing 1 Condi / second while health is above X% is so far from a buff it’s laughable that anyone would put their name to that comment.

We were impervious to conditions while health was above X% was that too strong? Sure if you didn’t know how to hit an Ele before using your Condi bomb, it was very tough. But Diamond Skin will be worthless now.

1 Condi removed per second is absolutely inferior to
0 Condis applied to say otherwise makes you sound kitten touched in the head.

Just answering you OP not saying you called it a buff.

Mirrodin.8729:

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

Light armor users have magic, obviously. Less armor because they don’t need it. I’m making a silly comment I admit but you’re attempting to apply logic where magic is involved. Also those heavy armor classes have immunity to damage similar to Diamond Skin, shouldn’t those be removed too?

Should be remain as it is. Perhaps people need to stop doing 1v1 against DS ele and try to rotate/lure where your melee friend is. After all, a well timed condi burst is much more rewarding.

The old DS is only a nich tool that works vs on nich builds and that build must be an all in so even the hybrid build can deal with DS. The new DS lets you use an effect at the start of a fight vs all build types and due to the way ele can self heal it will be able to push it self back to that 75%.

Its like running hart of stone over the old DS for most ppl your simply going to get more work out of the effect vs all builds that your going to run up vs even though it has a less imposing effect.

Jski.6180:

The old DS is only a nich tool that works vs on nich builds and that build must be an all in so even the hybrid build can deal with DS. The new DS lets you use an effect at the start of a fight vs all build types and due to the way ele can self heal it will be able to push it self back to that 75%.

Its like running hart of stone over the old DS for most ppl your simply going to get more work out of the effect vs all builds that your going to run up vs even though it has a less imposing effect.

It’s like you didn’t read the OP at all. I already addressed why the new DS is just as easy, if not easier to break than the old one. Condition spammers can now easily break it by covering important conditions, especially since chill and poison severely hamper an ele’s recovery. As well, power builds, especially burst builds like power revs, DH traps or thieves, never had a problem bringing us down below the threshold.

Shadowflare.2759:

Jski.6180:

The old DS is only a nich tool that works vs on nich builds and that build must be an all in so even the hybrid build can deal with DS. The new DS lets you use an effect at the start of a fight vs all build types and due to the way ele can self heal it will be able to push it self back to that 75%.

Its like running hart of stone over the old DS for most ppl your simply going to get more work out of the effect vs all builds that your going to run up vs even though it has a less imposing effect.

It’s like you didn’t read the OP at all. I already addressed why the new DS is just as easy, if not easier to break than the old one. Condition spammers can now easily break it by covering important conditions, especially since chill and poison severely hamper an ele’s recovery. As well, power builds, especially burst builds like power revs, DH traps or thieves, never had a problem bringing us down below the threshold.

Sry responding to your post that link to here. Kind of the old vs new so i guess to get back to the op 75% is much easier to cover for ele then 90% its not about how easy it is to brake but how easy it is to get back there for ele. That how light armor classes work bad def but great self healing.

Because unless you’re a burn guardian using all of your burst at once, you’ll do a single tick of damage before its removed. Coupled with the fact that eles have a bigger pool to work this in terms of maintaining their health before the effect deactivates, you’ve got what is essentially a buff. Imagine those eles being able to repeatedly keep themselves over 90% (considering their low health pool, that meant they’d have to constantly keep themselves from losing more than 2k HP), now they have more room to breathe with 75%. Unless you were running rabid, you have no excuse as to why you couldn’t pump out 2k damage with a single auto chain.

Jski.6180:

Shadowflare.2759:

Jski.6180:

The old DS is only a nich tool that works vs on nich builds and that build must be an all in so even the hybrid build can deal with DS. The new DS lets you use an effect at the start of a fight vs all build types and due to the way ele can self heal it will be able to push it self back to that 75%.

Its like running hart of stone over the old DS for most ppl your simply going to get more work out of the effect vs all builds that your going to run up vs even though it has a less imposing effect.

It’s like you didn’t read the OP at all. I already addressed why the new DS is just as easy, if not easier to break than the old one. Condition spammers can now easily break it by covering important conditions, especially since chill and poison severely hamper an ele’s recovery. As well, power builds, especially burst builds like power revs, DH traps or thieves, never had a problem bringing us down below the threshold.

Sry responding to your post that link to here. Kind of the old vs new so i guess to get back to the op 75% is much easier to cover for ele then 90% its not about how easy it is to brake but how easy it is to get back there for ele. That how light armor classes work bad def but great self healing.

If they break that 75%, it means you’ve lost a trait. If they were able to drop your threshold even when you had 1 cleanse per second, what makes you think that they won’t be able to keep you under 75% when you no longer have that cleanse?

Let’s assume for argument’s sake, that you’ve saved plenty of heals for when they break your threshold, and you use them right away to get back to 75%, now your skills are on CD, and might be affected by poison/chill, and they only have to do a second pass to drop you out again, and this time, you probably don’t have anything to recover with.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Because unless you’re a burn guardian using all of your burst at once, you’ll do a single tick of damage before its removed. Coupled with the fact that eles have a bigger pool to work this in terms of maintaining their health before the effect deactivates, you’ve got what is essentially a buff. Imagine those eles being able to repeatedly keep themselves over 90% (considering their low health pool, that meant they’d have to constantly keep themselves from losing more than 2k HP), now they have more room to breathe with 75%. Unless you were running rabid, you have no excuse as to why you couldn’t pump out 2k damage with a single auto chain.

…What condi builds only apply a single condition at once? Seriously do people not read opening posts?

A simple example would be boon corruption, or necro condi transfer. As long as they cover their important conditions with trash ones from autos/passive traits or whatever, they can keep those condis on you.

It seems people just see the larger amount of health threshold the new DS has, and take that as a buff without considering how powerful of an effect it will actually have. At best, this new DS is about equal in easiness to break.

Shadowflare.2759:

Jski.6180:

Shadowflare.2759:

Jski.6180:

The old DS is only a nich tool that works vs on nich builds and that build must be an all in so even the hybrid build can deal with DS. The new DS lets you use an effect at the start of a fight vs all build types and due to the way ele can self heal it will be able to push it self back to that 75%.

Its like running hart of stone over the old DS for most ppl your simply going to get more work out of the effect vs all builds that your going to run up vs even though it has a less imposing effect.

It’s like you didn’t read the OP at all. I already addressed why the new DS is just as easy, if not easier to break than the old one. Condition spammers can now easily break it by covering important conditions, especially since chill and poison severely hamper an ele’s recovery. As well, power builds, especially burst builds like power revs, DH traps or thieves, never had a problem bringing us down below the threshold.

Sry responding to your post that link to here. Kind of the old vs new so i guess to get back to the op 75% is much easier to cover for ele then 90% its not about how easy it is to brake but how easy it is to get back there for ele. That how light armor classes work bad def but great self healing.

If they break that 75%, it means you’ve lost a trait. If they were able to drop your threshold even when you had 1 cleanse per second, what makes you think that they won’t be able to keep you under 75% when you no longer have that cleanse?

Let’s assume for argument’s sake, that you’ve saved plenty of heals for when they break your threshold, and you use them right away to get back to 75%, now your skills are on CD, and might be affected by poison/chill, and they only have to do a second pass to drop you out again, and this time, you probably don’t have anything to recover with.

If they brake 90% then your running into the same problem so… i am not sure what your point is. 90% is a lot easier to brake for most builds and its a lot harder to get back to 90% then 75% therefor its harder for the old DS to work then it is for the new DS. Think of it on these lines ele is a very ruberban hp bar but its not going to full heal with out help you need to full heal for the most part to deal with the 90% break but is very with in reason for an ele to jump from low hp to 75% and get the benefit of the new DS.

Any way its bad to have effects like that in a game true “you cant do dmg to me if your build this way” its far better to have counter play for all effects. The old DS made a wall that was very easy to deal with for most builds and impossible to deal with for one build. One hit from non all in condition dmg build (even some all in condition dmg build would be able to brake it too even) would drop you below 90% and keep you below that making it an over all useless chose. So all though chill cripple fear taunt things that are non dmg but still condition would effect the ele. The new DS lets it have use out side of the nich ideal.

Added note:

Shadowflare.2759:

To everyone who thinks that the new DS will be stronger than the old one, please, come explain to me why you think so.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Can-someone-explain-to-me/first#post5928783

This is the op ppl are responding to so do not put a link some where randomly with a different question and then complain about ppl not reading the op. Its more your own doing then the ppl posting.

There is one thing that has not been discussed in this thread yet. The best argument I have seen regarding the new DS being a buff is as follows:

With the removal of the celestial amulet elementalist cannot maintain the old DS within the small threshold because they don’t have the necessary stats anymore. The new DS is easier to maintain due to the bigger threshold and it works even without the celestial amulet. The new DS would be a nerf if ele still had access to celestial amulet, but because they don’t, the new 75% DS works better in this situation.

Phantaram at 2:30:25
http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram/v/35802778

Myself I don’t play ele, I just find the situation interesting and wanted to share my thoughts.

Shadowflare.2759:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Because unless you’re a burn guardian using all of your burst at once, you’ll do a single tick of damage before its removed. Coupled with the fact that eles have a bigger pool to work this in terms of maintaining their health before the effect deactivates, you’ve got what is essentially a buff. Imagine those eles being able to repeatedly keep themselves over 90% (considering their low health pool, that meant they’d have to constantly keep themselves from losing more than 2k HP), now they have more room to breathe with 75%. Unless you were running rabid, you have no excuse as to why you couldn’t pump out 2k damage with a single auto chain.

…What condi builds only apply a single condition at once? Seriously do people not read opening posts?

A simple example would be boon corruption, or necro condi transfer. As long as they cover their important conditions with trash ones from autos/passive traits or whatever, they can keep those condis on you.

It seems people just see the larger amount of health threshold the new DS has, and take that as a buff without considering how powerful of an effect it will actually have. At best, this new DS is about equal in easiness to break.

It cleanses one condition per second. The only condition spec that can deal with this is necro with corrupts because even base condi application from necro won’t be enough to be able to deal a consistent amount of damage. At the same time, necro can’t keep up with a fleeing ele. Say, for the sake of this argument, the ele takes ether renewal. With the amount that it heals for + all of condi removal, they’ll essentially reset your condi bombs every 18 seconds without fail while still constantly shaving off conditions in between. An 18 second window to down an ele as what is probably their most efficient counter. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing that ele will still be strong after this patch (as many more experienced in the class have illustrated), but, for all intents and purposes, this is a buff to DS. At least good eles won’t have to worry about conditions as much in the coming meta.

combined with like ether renewal and say staff water 5 traitet to cleanse condi on regeneration , plus on water atunement and so on. it should not be a big issuse.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Shadowflare.2759:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Because unless you’re a burn guardian using all of your burst at once, you’ll do a single tick of damage before its removed. Coupled with the fact that eles have a bigger pool to work this in terms of maintaining their health before the effect deactivates, you’ve got what is essentially a buff. Imagine those eles being able to repeatedly keep themselves over 90% (considering their low health pool, that meant they’d have to constantly keep themselves from losing more than 2k HP), now they have more room to breathe with 75%. Unless you were running rabid, you have no excuse as to why you couldn’t pump out 2k damage with a single auto chain.

…What condi builds only apply a single condition at once? Seriously do people not read opening posts?

A simple example would be boon corruption, or necro condi transfer. As long as they cover their important conditions with trash ones from autos/passive traits or whatever, they can keep those condis on you.

It seems people just see the larger amount of health threshold the new DS has, and take that as a buff without considering how powerful of an effect it will actually have. At best, this new DS is about equal in easiness to break.

It cleanses one condition per second. The only condition spec that can deal with this is necro with corrupts because even base condi application from necro won’t be enough to be able to deal a consistent amount of damage. At the same time, necro can’t keep up with a fleeing ele. Say, for the sake of this argument, the ele takes ether renewal. With the amount that it heals for + all of condi removal, they’ll essentially reset your condi bombs every 18 seconds without fail while still constantly shaving off conditions in between. An 18 second window to down an ele as what is probably their most efficient counter. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing that ele will still be strong after this patch (as many more experienced in the class have illustrated), but, for all intents and purposes, this is a buff to DS. At least good eles won’t have to worry about conditions as much in the coming meta.

It’s not like DS is their ONLY meant of cleaning condis, it’s a clean/sec on top of everything else they can have and a passive cleanse at that… yes it may seem less powerful than the original DS, but the treshold leaves much better room for mistake while keeping the skill itself passive, if ele just decide (for sake of argument) to go back to D/D triple cantrip with Ether renewal and mercrenary/sage amulet, you still have access to incredible cleanse, and I’d even wager that you are even more immune then before because you’re not just preventing condis application, you are literally removing them while having a much lower treshold for activation. Ele excels in rapid healing that keeps them at around 50-80 percent life if their rotation is done properly.
Depending on their weapon they either have a very tolerable sustain healing or minor burst and both can keep them over this treshold, despite condis, which you can still slot active skills to remove them.

I’m neither saying it’s a nerf or a buff because it’s impossible to tell at this point, but it’s a much more generous change than many others that will happen… that I’m sure.
Or would you rather have a 5% increase speed on a GM trait? I’d take your DS anytime and switch Malicious Sorcery to you, for free!

Mesmer don’t have it worst than ele, but people, get off your QQ train, it may be a nerf, but it’s not demolishing your class, it will certainly not be THE trait responsible for removing Ele from meta if it ever happens. I’d wager that cele removal will have a much more important impact on your gameplay than whatever change happened to DS, for better or worse.

Jski.6180:

Shadowflare.2759:

If they break that 75%, it means you’ve lost a trait. If they were able to drop your threshold even when you had 1 cleanse per second, what makes you think that they won’t be able to keep you under 75% when you no longer have that cleanse?

Let’s assume for argument’s sake, that you’ve saved plenty of heals for when they break your threshold, and you use them right away to get back to 75%, now your skills are on CD, and might be affected by poison/chill, and they only have to do a second pass to drop you out again, and this time, you probably don’t have anything to recover with.

If they brake 90% then your running into the same problem so… i am not sure what your point is.

Which is why I’m vehemently against any sort of health threshold in this trait. That being said…

Jski.6180:

90% is a lot easier to brake for most builds and its a lot harder to get back to 90% then 75% therefor its harder for the old DS to work then it is for the new DS.

And this is what I’m arguing that isn’t true. For a power build, the 90% threshold is easier to break, but only marginally. It wouldn’t be much effort for them to break 75% either considering they never needed the conditions to do damage in the first place.

As for the condi spammers, they now can also easily break 75% because conditions are no longer prevented from applying at all, and if they’re able to keep poison/chill on the elementalist, it’s far easier to cut them down, and once they’ve been dropped below 75%, they’re probably not going to be recovering.

So really, what is happening is that compared to the old DS, now it’s easily breakable by both condi AND power builds.

Jski.6180:

Think of it on these lines ele is a very ruberban hp bar but its not going to full heal with out help you need to full heal for the most part to deal with the 90% break but is very with in reason for an ele to jump from low hp to 75% and get the benefit of the new DS.

Any way its bad to have effects like that in a game true “you cant do dmg to me if your build this way” its far better to have counter play for all effects. The old DS made a wall that was very easy to deal with for most builds and impossible to deal with for one build. One hit from non all in condition dmg build (even some all in condition dmg build would be able to brake it too even) would drop you below 90% and keep you below that making it an over all useless chose. So all though chill cripple fear taunt things that are non dmg but still condition would effect the ele. The new DS lets it have use out side of the nich ideal.

Added note:

This is the op ppl are responding to so do not put a link some where randomly with a different question and then complain about ppl not reading the op. Its more your own doing then the ppl posting.

I’m not arguing that DS should remain as it was…However, given a chance to rework, I’m appalled that Anet took the lazy way out while nerfing the trait hard, and I’m confused why people even think that the nerf is a buff.

PS. The question I posed there was exactly the same as the title here. I don’t know about you, but I read all the posts of a thread (especially since it was like 4 replies at that point) before contributing my thoughts…Didn’t think that was such a foreign concept.

SlayerSixx.5763:

It cleanses one condition per second. The only condition spec that can deal with this is necro with corrupts because even base condi application from necro won’t be enough to be able to deal a consistent amount of damage. At the same time, necro can’t keep up with a fleeing ele. Say, for the sake of this argument, the ele takes ether renewal. With the amount that it heals for + all of condi removal, they’ll essentially reset your condi bombs every 18 seconds without fail while still constantly shaving off conditions in between. An 18 second window to down an ele as what is probably their most efficient counter. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing that ele will still be strong after this patch (as many more experienced in the class have illustrated), but, for all intents and purposes, this is a buff to DS. At least good eles won’t have to worry about conditions as much in the coming meta.

And this is the core of it, isn’kitten You think that condition application can’t keep up with the cleanse, and I think it’s more than capable, again, things that used to have no effect now DO, as long as they’re covered. Fear, chill, poison, these are 3 deadly things you can use to break an elementalist’s attempt at heal/cleanse, on top of the usual CC and burst damage. At the end of it, the only builds that the new DS will succeed against are low-damage, slow-condi-application builds, aka bunker builds that wouldn’t be killing you in the first place.

Comparing trait to trait, I don’t see how this new DS is a buff.

Shadowflare.2759:

Comparing trait to trait, I don’t see how this new DS is a buff.

I don’t know if you should be comparing the traits without taking into account the fact that celestial amulet is going away. Sure when looking at the trait the old one seems better but that is on celestial amulet. Are you sure you can keep your health in that 90% threshold without any toughness?

To me it looks like devs realized that the old DS doesn’t work without all 3 vitality, healing and toughness that celestial + durarune provide.

Shadowflare.2759:

SlayerSixx.5763:

It cleanses one condition per second. The only condition spec that can deal with this is necro with corrupts because even base condi application from necro won’t be enough to be able to deal a consistent amount of damage. At the same time, necro can’t keep up with a fleeing ele. Say, for the sake of this argument, the ele takes ether renewal. With the amount that it heals for + all of condi removal, they’ll essentially reset your condi bombs every 18 seconds without fail while still constantly shaving off conditions in between. An 18 second window to down an ele as what is probably their most efficient counter. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing that ele will still be strong after this patch (as many more experienced in the class have illustrated), but, for all intents and purposes, this is a buff to DS. At least good eles won’t have to worry about conditions as much in the coming meta.

And this is the core of it, isn’kitten You think that condition application can’t keep up with the cleanse, and I think it’s more than capable, again, things that used to have no effect now DO, as long as they’re covered. Fear, chill, poison, these are 3 deadly things you can use to break an elementalist’s attempt at heal/cleanse, on top of the usual CC and burst damage. At the end of it, the only builds that the new DS will succeed against are low-damage, slow-condi-application builds, aka bunker builds that wouldn’t be killing you in the first place.

Comparing trait to trait, I don’t see how this new DS is a buff.

You don’t seem to have read my post entirely. Dealing damage and dealing damage in a consistent manner are two wholly different things. Sure, you can drop a 700 chill and a 1k+ terror on the ele, but you’ll deal only one of them since DS will immediately cleanse one with the other being cleansed almost immediately after. At most, you’ve dealt 2k damage and the ele has already topped up with whatever rotation. Say they have regen, prot, and might up. You corrupt and then apply your fear and chill. Now the ele has to deal with fear/terror, chill, poison, weakness, and vuln. Assuming the ele is at full HP (straight up 1v1), two conditions will be cleansed and the remaining will work their effects. If the ele feels like they’re being pressured, they can simply reset and come back since a majority of their weapon skills (D/D) have low CDs while you burned a sizeable CD. Rinse and repeat until the necro either gets +1ed or the ele eventually gets you to blow your LF and its basically GG.

Burn guardian cannot, without running gimmicky sigils/runes, break through this iteration of DS (whereas they could deal with the previous with a carrion amulet).

Condi thief isnt worth mentioning.

Condi ranger is either all melee (easily kiteable) or using their iffy SB.

Condi ele? Lol.

Condi mesmer can MAYBE trouble ele with a properly timed shatter and a daze here and there.

Perhaps condi zerker can spam zerk mode mace burst and throw in some CC?

Its a cleanse per second as long they’re rotating efficiently. They’re losing some toughness now that cele is being removed, but toughness never mattered to a full condi build to begin with. Bad eles who used it as a crutch will see it as a nerf. Experienced eles who know how to manage rotations and reset fights effectively will still win vs most condi users.

Well with DS being the only thing in the entire game that can completely block condis i’d say that it definitely needed a change. After all, no other class can completely block condis like that.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Shadowflare.2759:

SlayerSixx.5763:

It cleanses one condition per second. The only condition spec that can deal with this is necro with corrupts because even base condi application from necro won’t be enough to be able to deal a consistent amount of damage. At the same time, necro can’t keep up with a fleeing ele. Say, for the sake of this argument, the ele takes ether renewal. With the amount that it heals for + all of condi removal, they’ll essentially reset your condi bombs every 18 seconds without fail while still constantly shaving off conditions in between. An 18 second window to down an ele as what is probably their most efficient counter. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not arguing that ele will still be strong after this patch (as many more experienced in the class have illustrated), but, for all intents and purposes, this is a buff to DS. At least good eles won’t have to worry about conditions as much in the coming meta.

And this is the core of it, isn’kitten You think that condition application can’t keep up with the cleanse, and I think it’s more than capable, again, things that used to have no effect now DO, as long as they’re covered. Fear, chill, poison, these are 3 deadly things you can use to break an elementalist’s attempt at heal/cleanse, on top of the usual CC and burst damage. At the end of it, the only builds that the new DS will succeed against are low-damage, slow-condi-application builds, aka bunker builds that wouldn’t be killing you in the first place.

Comparing trait to trait, I don’t see how this new DS is a buff.

You don’t seem to have read my post entirely. Dealing damage and dealing damage in a consistent manner are two wholly different things. Sure, you can drop a 700 chill and a 1k+ terror on the ele, but you’ll deal only one of them since DS will immediately cleanse one with the other being cleansed almost immediately after. At most, you’ve dealt 2k damage and the ele has already topped up with whatever rotation.

Say they have regen, prot, and might up. You corrupt and then apply your fear and chill. Now the ele has to deal with fear/terror, chill, poison, weakness, and vuln. Assuming the ele is at full HP (straight up 1v1), two conditions will be cleansed and the remaining will work their effects.

So you’re going to assume that the necro is doing nothing in this duration? Conditions, by nature, is something you drop to take effect while you continue to do other things, whether it be to cc, or to pressure with more condis.

It isn’t hard to imagine that you can drop a sizeable number of conditions, then upkeep it by spamming a ‘trash’ condition to cover it up. Dhuumfire ring any bells? Passive procs that apply additional conditions? And really, it’s not like all condition skills only ever cause condition damage, no matter how low it may be, every little bit of physical damage matters when we’re counting a health threshold.

SlayerSixx.5763:

If the ele feels like they’re being pressured, they can simply reset and come back since a majority of their weapon skills (D/D) have low CDs while you burned a sizeable CD. Rinse and repeat until the necro either gets +1ed or the ele eventually gets you to blow your LF and its basically GG.

Burn guardian cannot, without running gimmicky sigils/runes, break through this iteration of DS (whereas they could deal with the previous with a carrion amulet).

Condi thief isnt worth mentioning.

Condi ranger is either all melee (easily kiteable) or using their iffy SB.

Condi ele? Lol.

Condi mesmer can MAYBE trouble ele with a properly timed shatter and a daze here and there.

Perhaps condi zerker can spam zerk mode mace burst and throw in some CC?

Its a cleanse per second as long they’re rotating efficiently. They’re losing some toughness now that cele is being removed, but toughness never mattered to a full condi build to begin with. Bad eles who used it as a crutch will see it as a nerf. Experienced eles who know how to manage rotations and reset fights effectively will still win vs most condi users.

Sizeable cd compared to the ele’s weapon skills? You mean the necro boon corruption that will be 15 seconds base cd? and have you seen a mallyx rev’s skill sets when combined with mace?

All builds are not made equal, obviously necros, and the revenants that you neglected to mention, remain the more highlighted challengers, but why is that relevant, if they are the ones we will see in play? When was the last time you saw half of those condi builds you mentioned? The classes associated with many of those would rather be playing a power build where condis are just icing on the cake and DS, both old and new, are useless against them.

The question here is, how is it a buff for the elementalist if all that will happen is that the meta condi builds will have an easier time against them? The threshold certainly isn’t any harder to break than the old one if you’re a condi main, it’s most likely easier because the new DS no longer disregards any conditions thrown at it.

Let me make this clear, when the patch hits, I will probably jump back onto fresh air, for better or for worse. I will rarely use DS, if at all. What I’m arguing about here isn’t whether the DS nerf is needed or not, nor whether the new DS rework is good or not (I’ve already made another thread about this). I’m just not convinced that it is a buff in any way, as many people are saying, and using it as a defense when arguing about whether ele deserves more buffs.

The thing is, what they’re doing IS applying conditions. Unless I read wrong and DS will only cleanse one stack of one specific condition, the necro can apply 500 stacks of poison and bleed and the poison will almost instantly disappear (well, the ele would die in this case, but that’s beside the point) with the bleed following up very shortly. If they choose to simply spam all of their fears, they’ll lose. If they try to chain them back to back, earth’s embrace/armor of earth would like to say hi.

Conditions, by nature, take time to do their damage. Picture it like this. The pre-buff DS was a 90 degree waterfall. Trying to apply conditions was like trying to swim up. You could, PERHAPS, make some progress, but then you’ll very shortly be thrown back down with new scars each time, only each time you land, you’re a level ahead of where you were previously because there would be some sort of foothold for you to hold onto (burned ele CDs). The post buff DS is more like white water rapids. Definitely not as hard to scale as a waterfall, but no points to hold onto and would probably mess you up just as bad once your stamina (your CDs) is blown.

If we’re talking about an entire build, let’s not forget that ele has a metric ton of cleanses aside from just DS. It’d be literally no problem for them to deal with constantly re-applied conditions and burst condi classes like guardian cannot hold a single, tiny candle to ele post-buff.

Mirrodin.8729:

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

While I agree with you, I’m pretty sure most necros can outlast most heavy classes in a melee fight with less effort put into it, taking player skill/experience out of the equation

Necro is not only one who can burn ele with new DS. Condi engi with nades can make 5 condis from one throw, sustain of 3-4 condi by aa nade. If they change something in core engi survivability, this will be danger for ele too. Hopefully nades are hard to land on moving target.

SlayerSixx.5763:

The thing is, what they’re doing IS applying conditions. Unless I read wrong and DS will only cleanse one stack of one specific condition, the necro can apply 500 stacks of poison and bleed and the poison will almost instantly disappear (well, the ele would die in this case, but that’s beside the point) with the bleed following up very shortly. If they choose to simply spam all of their fears, they’ll lose. If they try to chain them back to back, earth’s embrace/armor of earth would like to say hi.

Conditions, by nature, take time to do their damage. Picture it like this. The pre-buff DS was a 90 degree waterfall. Trying to apply conditions was like trying to swim up. You could, PERHAPS, make some progress, but then you’ll very shortly be thrown back down with new scars each time, only each time you land, you’re a level ahead of where you were previously because there would be some sort of foothold for you to hold onto (burned ele CDs). The post buff DS is more like white water rapids. Definitely not as hard to scale as a waterfall, but no points to hold onto and would probably mess you up just as bad once your stamina (your CDs) is blown.

If we’re talking about an entire build, let’s not forget that ele has a metric ton of cleanses aside from just DS. It’d be literally no problem for them to deal with constantly re-applied conditions and burst condi classes like guardian cannot hold a single, tiny candle to ele post-buff.

You’re still making the assumption that the condition application CANNOT match the 1 cleanse per second. Obviously, in real fights it’s impossible to land every application, but for the most part, since each application most likely drops more than 1 condi, all the condi user would need is to drop a large amount at once, then maintain it by continually applying new ones quickly, and then when their condi burst is off cd again, they drop it again. In this scenario, the ele either has to constantly blow cds or they have to live with having conditions on them all the time.

At best case, this matches how the old DS works, at worst, eventually you lose the race when you run out of cds and can no longer match the application. Keep in mind that often times, condi application can be done via auto attacks which could then proc traits to add more. They’re far more spammable than anything ele has to cleanse, even with cleansing water.

Let’s take the DS trait now and compare it to the upcoming one:
Currently weaknesses in match up: Power and/or CC heavy builds, hybrid builds to a lesser degree.
Current strengths … : 1 v 1 domination against pure condi builds of nearly any kind, whether it be condi pressure, or burst condi.

New weaknesses … : Same thing as before, except with the addition of heavy condition pressure.
New strengths … : Strong cleanse vs condi builds which rely on single stacks of condi.

The change made it so that people using heavy condition pressure are no longer hard countered, and that in order to maintain the new threshold, eles must spec harder into cleansing. Is this a bad thing? No. Is it a nerf to the diamond skin trait? Yes.

Think about it. Even in the balance preview the devs made it a point to mention that the with the new DS, burst condi will burst you down. This is meant as a nerf.

Therefore, I don’t know why people are trying to paint it as a buff, and even worse, some are using it as an excuse to say that eles don’t need buffs (in other areas, obvs).

Ps. Seriously though, why are you making comparisons with burn guard? There are plenty of condi classes in the meta to pick from, and given that they’re the ones you will see in competitive play, it’s a lot more important to analyse their interaction with the new trait, rather than looking at a near-gimmick.

Shadowflare.2759:

This is meant as a nerf.

Nope, its a buff. Cleric eles are afraid being get condi burst, coz they are dead when they pull out their big heals and leave water attunement. can’t blame them if Anet listen to them whiners.

posthumecaver.6473:

Mirrodin.8729:

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

There is nothing to suck it up, I will jump to my thief and kitten people.

They will be the king of this new META until whinerslike you, whine enough force to be nerfed.

Watch out everybody complained about OPness of Ele a Thief coming after you to teach what it means to be OP.

Good luck

Aidenwolf.5964:

Mirrodin.8729:

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

Light armor users have magic, obviously. Less armor because they don’t need it. I’m making a silly comment I admit but you’re attempting to apply logic where magic is involved. Also those heavy armor classes have immunity to damage similar to Diamond Skin, shouldn’t those be removed too?

Then they can use their magic to avoid nerfs? no? well, time to be the underdog class

Mirrodin.8729:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Mirrodin.8729:

Shadowflare.2759:

…Why they think the reworked Diamond Skin is a buff compared to the old DS??

Let me start off by saying that yes, Diamond Skin needed a rework, I’m not here to argue that. However, the toxic part about the old DS (aside from my personal bias against the health threshold) was that it prevented condition APPLICATION.

I don’t think people understand how huge of a difference that makes.

Before, when you try to apply condis, nothing would stick, when you try to corrupt boons, at most you remove the boons and yet no conditions are added. And when/if you manage to drop the ele’s HP under 90%, if they react quickly enough with condi clear/heals, they go back to the immunity. It means the window of opportunity for pure condi users was extremely small in a 1 v 1.

The new DS however, does not prevent application. Hell it isn’t even a resistance, so anything you throw on them takes effect immediately. This means poison, chill, fear can be dropped with some covering conditions, and these three conditions then severely hamper an ele’s ability to maintain health above 75%, or to recover once dropped below the threshold. Boon corruption of course becomes much more powerful vs this new DS. Even with the health threshold being lowered to 75%, this new DS is probably easier to break than the old one.

I honestly just don’t see how people are saying this is a buff. However, maybe I missed something, so please, explain to me why people see this as a buff.

find another build, no light armor user should last longer than a heavy armor by nature, yet without boon corruption (sometimes even with that) eles outlast most damages, suck it up and deal with it

Light armor users have magic, obviously. Less armor because they don’t need it. I’m making a silly comment I admit but you’re attempting to apply logic where magic is involved. Also those heavy armor classes have immunity to damage similar to Diamond Skin, shouldn’t those be removed too?

Then they can use their magic to avoid nerfs? no? well, time to be the underdog class

Underdog class you say? Yea. Been there. done that.

the new DS is definetly a buff altho i can see it being a nerf if they do remove cele gear or something like that as then ele wont have the healing up time to keep up the 90% hp as often

Rezzet.3614:

the new DS is definetly a buff altho i can see it being a nerf if they do remove cele gear or something like that as then ele wont have the healing up time to keep up the 90% hp as often

How is it a buff…

Towren.1745:

Ok, think about it. Look at the trait on it’s own – It removes a condition every second. That’s powerful, very powerful. Had this been given to any other profession people would be crying it as OP. But because its a Diamond Skin change people think it’s a Nerf?

Elementalists are very powerful condi cleansers. Before HoT and the Bunker Aura Tempest it was hard to condi Bomb an Elly anyway – Cantraps + Regen Removal, Water Attunement swap, Water attunement abilities, Ether Renewal Heal, Arcane Dodge traits…

Do you remember that?

D/D Ellies were basically immune to Conditions before HoT, if it was a very heavy condi comp you’d just swap out mistform for cleansing fire and laugh. Elementalists still have all of that cleansing now, but now they’re going to get a passive ability to cleanse a condi every second. You don’t think that’s going to have an impact on condi builds?

Whether Elementalist comes back, or Tempest with Shout Runes stays in play they’re still going to be amazing at Condi cleansing. Probably better than any other class out there, the only thing I can see coming close is a Mesmer running the inspiration cleanse on shatter, and I still don’t think that’ll keep up.

If you can’t see DS is going to be a powerful tool for an Elly then you’re crazy. If an elly, with ether renewal, water weapon skills, utilities that all cleanse conditions, and a passive 1 second cleanse can’t keep up with the condi bomb then I can safely say that nobody will be able to… And we’ll be in a condi bomb Meta where condi’s will get nerfed.

The only thing which is gonna make an elly melt is the removal of Celestial and Soldiers Amulets, the two amulets Ellies have used for years (do you remember the Soldier D/D meta before celestial was introduced?)

Tl;dr: Elementalists and Tempests were the King of Condi cleanse before the new passive Diamond Skin 1 second removal. If you don’t think that’s going to be a very powerful tool for them then you’re a crazy person.

Elementalists have a ridiculous amount of cleanse without diamond skin, you’re right. However what does that have to do with this discussion?

I can spec into full cleanse right now with the current diamond skin. I would be even more OP against condis than I would be in the next patch, with the only difference being that diamond skin functions differently.

This isn’t about elementalist viability. DS is one trait. It’s not a build, it’s not a class, it’s just one trait. My point in all of this, is simply that they are nerfing it, and frankly, I don’t understand how any of you still disagree even after (or maybe you just chose not to) reading everything I’ve already said.

Seriously, half the people in this thread just come in here and say “look eles have all these other condi removals”, well guess what, I have them all right now. Having those other cleanses doesn’t change the fact that they’re nerfing the trait…

“Because you will have all those cleanses that’s always been available, diamond skin is getting buffed”. That’s what you people sound like.

I think I accidently deleted my last post when it double posted and I tried to only delete one, but both have gone. I re-wrote my response better than my previous entry, so here it is

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As an Elementalist/Tempest player I am looking forward to this change.

The first thing to point out is that an Elly or a Tempest is the King/Queen of Condition cleansing. Nobody can cleanse a condition like an Elly. Whether it’s traits such as regen removing condi’s, runes such as soldiers, weapon abilities like healing rain, utilities like cleansing fire, heals like ether renewal, no other class can match an Ellies cleansing ability.

They were like this before HoT – Ellies were often considered immune to Condi’s when Diamond Skin was considered trash. Nobody took Diamond Skin during the D/D Celestial Meta, you were laughed out the Elly forums for even suggesting it, and it didn’t exist back in the D/D Soldier Meta (Do you remember a time before Celestial Amulet existed? I do). Necro’s crying on the Elly forum because they’d just zip away and cast ether renewal, or pop their regen granting cantraps.

So, what on earth makes people think that the change to Diamond Skin is suddenly going to destroy Elementalists vs Condi’s? Elementalists have been able to out cleanse condi classes for the past 4 years – Sure, we won’t be immune to conditions anymore in a 1v1, but they haven’t removed all of our Condi cleansing abilities. In fact they’ve gone an buffed them… Not only do I have my traits, my utilties, my runes, my weapon abilities and my heals to give me more condi cleanse than any other profession out there, but they’re going to give me a 1 second passive cleanse on top to boot. You don’t think that’s incredibly powerful?

If they’d gone and said Revenants are getting a passive condi cleanse on a 1 second cooldown the forums would be ablaze with outrage, it’d be decried as OP beyond belief. But because it’s replacing Diamond Skin in it’s current form people seem to think it’s a nerf?

1v1 vs Condi classes won’t be a problem – I can see things switching again, more Elly’s will go back to ether renewal just to stock up on condi removal, but it won’t be a problem, not with a 1 second passive cleanse on top of all our other abilities. You could call it a Nerf I suppose. But a single Revenant could get you past the 90% bracket anyway. And a Necro could too so long as it wasn’t running Vipers. In group fights Diamond Skin wasn’t all that useful anyway. The 90% bracket was broken all the time and you’d be trapped outside of water attunement with your utilties on cooldown.

I look forward to the change and consider it a buff because I can’t think of the amount of times my HP sat around the 80% mark whilst I battled 3 people, desperately trying to get myself above the 90% bracket whilst I was condi bombed over and over, trying to dodge and await my condi cleanses to come back up… a Passive 1 second cleanse would have helped in those situations immensely.

I would argue the new Diamond Skin to be wholly better, and would have loved this new iteration a month ago. Other classes survive with one or two condi cleanses… Ellies in any typical build have at least 3, 4 if not 5+ when specced right. Another 1 second passive cleanse will keep condi builds off ellies indefinitely.

My biggest fear however is not the Diamond Skin change, but the Amulet change. For the past 4 years Elly has relied on Celestial (and Soldiers before that) – Both are being removed. That’s what’s going to kill us. Not the Diamond Skin change.

It’s a buff if you are using the clerics amulet. The health threshold is lower thus allowing eles to have a more firm healer role.

Better start practicing not using celestial.

Shadowflare.2759:

“Because you will have all those cleanses that’s always been available, diamond skin is getting buffed”. That’s what you people sound like.

I suppose the answer your looking for is this:

Old Diamond Skin meant immune to condi’s above 90% – You would laugh above 90%, but below 90% you’d be up poop creak. In 1v1’s it was extremely powerful against condi builds and useless against power builds. In group fights it became semi-useless

New Diamond Skin means you’ll rely move heavily on your condi cleanses, yes, but you’ll have more condi cleanses at your disposal, you won’t have to worry as much about the 90% HP bracket, and it’ll be a lot more powerful against power builds and in group fights.

I like to think of it this way: On any other class which would I prefer? 90% HP immunity to conditions, or for my condition cleanse utility to come off cooldown every second and be activated by a bot?

I know which I’d prefer.

Towren.1745:

Shadowflare.2759:

“Because you will have all those cleanses that’s always been available, diamond skin is getting buffed”. That’s what you people sound like.

I suppose the answer your looking for is this:

Old Diamond Skin meant immune to condi’s above 90% – You would laugh above 90%, but below 90% you’d be up poop creak. In 1v1’s it was extremely powerful against condi builds and useless against power builds. In group fights it became semi-useless

New Diamond Skin means you’ll rely move heavily on your condi cleanses, yes, but you’ll have more condi cleanses at your disposal, you won’t have to worry as much about the 90% HP bracket, and it’ll be a lot more powerful against power builds and in group fights.

I like to think of it this way: On any other class which would I prefer? 90% HP immunity to conditions, or for my condition cleanse utility to come off cooldown every second and be activated by a bot?

I know which I’d prefer.

Sigh. how can it possibly be a buff if you have to get more condition cleansing just to make DS function as it currently does?

That 75% health threshold remains useless against power builds, same deal in a teamfight. You won’t be maintaining it any more so than the current one.

What WILL happen is that heavy pressure condi users no longer gets completed nullified. If they corrupt at the right time, if they cover the right conditions, if they transfer conditions in bursts, they CAN bring you down. Why? because chill, poison, and CC exists. And if they were able to bring you down past 75% even with all your cleanses, what make you think they won’t be able to keep you down when you no longer have DS?

I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself; I’m not here to say that DS shouldn’t be reworked. I’m not here to say that the rework is bad (at least I’m not saying it in this thread), I’m not here to say that elementalist will die because DS is getting nerfed. I’m just here to say to any and everyone who thinks that the DS change is a buff: It’s not. Maybe I should just make this my signature…

You might wonder why it matters to me whether people think it’s a buff or a nerf. Well, when reasonable buff suggestions for eles come up (usually about scepter or utilities or whatnot), there’s always people that dismiss it, citing things like these to be buffs and therefore we don’t need any more. Not only that, Anet has proven time and time again that they balance on the crying of the loud. If the prevailing belief is that DS was buffed instead of nerfed…then we stand to be nerfed again in other areas.

Shadowflare.2759:

Sigh. how can it possibly be a buff if you have to get more condition cleansing just to make DS function as it currently does?

The additional condi cleansing is coming from the new DS, nothing else… Taking additional like ether renewal will probably be overkill, some will do it, but it won’t be needed…

But anyway you asked the question. You’ve had your response. If you would rather a 90% HP threshold immunity rather than a 75% HP threshold cleanse every second then that’s your preference.

It’s not mine.

The new Diamond Skin will be a lot more helpful to me in group fights.

Thus it’s a buff.

The new Diamond Skin will be a lot more helpful to me vs power builds.

Thus I consider it a buff.

The new Diamond Skin will be less useful to me in 1v1’s against Condition builds.

It is a nerf in this regard.

We now have two instances in which its a buff. And one in which it’s a nerf.

I come across the first two instances (group fights, and power builds) more than I do the last instance (1v1 condi) when fighting in ranked matches. So now extra value is placed on the two buffs.

I have more than enough tools at my disposal to laugh a condi build off 1v1 without diamond skin anyway, thus the nerf is negligible.

So now we have two valued buffs, vs a negligible nerf.

Thus I consider overall the change to be a buff.

You asked my opinion, I’ve given it to you. You do not have to agree.

Edit: Of course this is all negligible anyway, as with the change to the amulets and the meta overall we have no idea how Elly will work, or whether either iteration of Diamond Skin will be useful in the future.

Towren.1745:

Shadowflare.2759:

Sigh. how can it possibly be a buff if you have to get more condition cleansing just to make DS function as it currently does?

The additional condi cleansing is coming from the new DS, nothing else… Taking additional like ether renewal will probably be overkill, some will do it, but it won’t be needed…

And there we go…we’re back to square one. I have pointed out multiple times, starting from the opening post, that this new DS’s cleansing effect does not do any more towards condi protection when compared to the old one. Why? because you can apply conditions now. You can have your boons corrupted, you can be affected by poison, chill, and fear.

Any attempt you make to maintain yourself at 75% will be hampered by the very fact that the conditions actually have an effect on you. Unless you were to take extra cleansing compared to current builds, at best you break even with the old DS in terms of protecting yourself. Just because the health threshold is larger, doesn’t mean it’s harder to break your DS, simply because the new condition defense is considerably less powerful. Why do you think they even lowered the threshold?

Towren.1745:

But anyway you asked the question. You’ve had your response. If you would rather a 90% HP threshold immunity rather than a 75% HP threshold cleanse every second then that’s your preference.

It’s not mine.

I’d rather they get rid of the health threshold entirely and rework the trait to give condition resistance which are activated by us, the players, but that sure as hell isn’t happening.

If you’d been paying any attention, I must have said this same thing in more than 5 posts in the last week or so.

Towren.1745:

The new Diamond Skin will be a lot more helpful to me in group fights.

Thus it’s a buff.

Except it doesn’t. In a team fight, even just random cleave damage can bring you down below the threshold, 90% vs 75% is pretty insignifcant when you have multiple people attacking you/throwing out aoes.

Towren.1745:

The new Diamond Skin will be a lot more helpful to me vs power builds.

Thus I consider it a buff.

Power builds never relied on conditions to break your diamond skin in the first place, any conditions that they apply in addition to the power damage is just icing on top. 75% threshold is just as useless as 90% in this scenario.

Towren.1745:

The new Diamond Skin will be less useful to me in 1v1’s against Condition builds.

It is a nerf in this regard.

We now have two instances in which its a buff. And one in which it’s a nerf.

I come across the first two instances (group fights, and power builds) more than I do the last instance (1v1 condi) when fighting in ranked matches. So now extra value is placed on the two buffs.

I have more than enough tools at my disposal to laugh a condi build off 1v1 without diamond skin anyway, thus the nerf is negligible.

So now we have two valued buffs, vs a negligible nerf.

Thus I consider overall the change to be a buff.

You asked my opinion, I’ve given it to you. You do not have to agree.

Edit: Of course this is all negligible anyway, as with the change to the amulets and the meta overall we have no idea how Elly will work, or whether either iteration of Diamond Skin will be useful in the future.

I’m not even going to discuss the 1 v 1 vs condi builds again because I’ve already repeated myself plenty on this part, if you want to believe that condition cleansing reactively is better than condition immunity, there’s really nothing I can say.

Instead I will say that I’m pretty confident in my analysis of the previous 2 scenarios, because it’s been the same pattern for me as I soloed my way to legendary, and continues to be so in every match I’ve played in legendary. And this is in the current meta, which is relatively low in burst compared to the one that will be coming. In both teamfight scenarios and fighting vs power builds, the new DS is just as useless as the old, and fighting vs condition is where the new DS is outperformed by the old.

Trait is nerfed. It’s not the straw that will break the camel’s back, but it’s a nerf nevertheless.

Aidenwolf.5964:

We were impervious to conditions while health was above X% was that too strong? Sure if you didn’t know how to hit an Ele before using your Condi bomb, it was very tough. But Diamond Skin will be worthless now.

You make it sound easy. It was too strong, and extremely frustrating to play against. Try playing against it with a frostfire carrion necro and judge for yourself.

I’m not so sure DS will be worthless, practical play will determine this.

Demandred.7930:

Aidenwolf.5964:

We were impervious to conditions while health was above X% was that too strong? Sure if you didn’t know how to hit an Ele before using your Condi bomb, it was very tough. But Diamond Skin will be worthless now.

You make it sound easy. It was too strong, and extremely frustrating to play against. Try playing against it with a frostfire carrion necro and judge for yourself.

I’m not so sure DS will be worthless, practical play will determine this.

Which is why I’m not against having DS reworked. The issue is that people are painting this nerf as a buff for no reason, and now they’re going around spreading their misconception.

Shadowflare.2759:

spreading their misconception.

Well played sir well played, but still my declaration will remain the same.

It’s a nerf, I will not deny it. I would have prefered if they made it like a semi resistance effect that supressed specific effects and maybe a global condi damage reduction above a threshold (like 80% or 75%). Would be a bit more balanced in my opinion.

it is most definitely a buff. Necro is probably the only class that can break through it with corrupts and even that will be hard, considering you are constantly pushing your damaging conditions to the top of the stack.

That means all ranger/engi/mesmer/guard etc. condi builds will be hard-countered and unplayable same as now.

You are not fighting a golem, sure you can overwhelm 1 condi per sec (on top of shouts/traits etc.) if the ele is afk, but the ele will dodge, CC you, force you to dodge, break LoS etc.

Though im not considering how much ele will suffer because of cele loss. Gotta wait and see, but if there is a viable ele build with one of the new amulets, it will certainly HARD-counter the vast majority of condi builds and be the same problem as current diamond skin.

Stilgar.6437:

it is most definitely a buff. Necro is probably the only class that can break through it with corrupts and even that will be hard, considering you are constantly pushing your damaging conditions to the top of the stack.

That means all ranger/engi/mesmer/guard etc. condi builds will be hard-countered and unplayable same as now.

You are not fighting a golem, sure you can overwhelm 1 condi per sec (on top of shouts/traits etc.) if the ele is afk, but the ele will dodge, CC you, force you to dodge, break LoS etc.

Though im not considering how much ele will suffer because of cele loss. Gotta wait and see, but if there is a viable ele build with one of the new amulets, it will certainly HARD-counter the vast majority of condi builds and be the same problem as current diamond skin.

So pre-patch: no condi build can break DS unless the ele majorly messes up.
Post patch: at least one condi build can break DS even if the ele doesn’t majorly mess up.

Therefore the patch is buffing DS?

What kind of logic are you people using…