Guild Wars 2

I don’t like to see people suddenly beeing successful allthough they have been bad before the patch.

mesmers are throwing random rupts and 14k shatters with a survivabilty even an ape could survive with

eles are chasing you over the whole map while you have thousands of bruning stacks on
yourself

and last but not least the 0815 warrior… oh things gonna bad I failed my dodge the 10th time now but whocaresihaverampage boys.

can we finally nerf this kitten?

Mesmer needs shaving on CS and PU and fix on Mender’s Purity and Blinding Dissipation
the problem with ele is burning, not ele
Rampage is an elite with telegraphed animation that are easy to avoid, l2kite

I main warrior myself,so I know how rampage works.
Fact of the matter is that bad warriors are succesful with rampage.

Also fact of the matter is that burning is completly fine. i have nor problem with burining on guardians ,necs or engis. It’s just the ele, who outsustain other classes while having so much pressure because they can stack burning that high.

Pepsi.8907:

Mesmer needs shaving on CS and PU and fix on Mender’s Purity and Blinding Dissipation
the problem with ele is burning, not ele
Rampage is an elite with telegraphed animation that are easy to avoid, l2kite

There is no issue with burning it’s ele or rather what they get to bring while still having it look at the other classes burning. Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

Pepsi.8907:

Mesmer needs shaving on CS and PU and fix on Mender’s Purity and Blinding Dissipation
the problem with ele is burning, not ele
Rampage is an elite with telegraphed animation that are easy to avoid, l2kite

This guy gets it.
The one thing don’t agree with is ele. But I don’t have any problem with ele.
And burning really only gets you when it’s stacked high in a team by guards when the team is able to put on cover conditions.

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

Pepsi.8907:

Mesmer needs shaving on CS and PU and fix on Mender’s Purity and Blinding Dissipation
the problem with ele is burning, not ele
Rampage is an elite with telegraphed animation that are easy to avoid, l2kite

Ok so i can agree on nerfing pu since stealth camping is useless in pvp.
but they need blinding dissepeation not to be free kills or they need heavy armor.
Nerfing cs sure but atleast lower cd on diversion so they can actually mess you up

Why, its not even been a year.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

um what? Ele has had many builds, yah sure some aren’t going to be as good as D/D but it’s not their only build. Ele has access to bleed so no ele doesn’t just have burning.

Pepsi.8907:

Mesmer needs shaving on CS and PU and fix on Mender’s Purity and Blinding Dissipation
the problem with ele is burning, not ele
Rampage is an elite with telegraphed animation that are easy to avoid, l2kite

The problem with Ele is the whole Earth and Water trait that proc aura automatically and grant protection/regen/chill automatically when hit, while immune to crit. (which usually contribute to 60% or more of the dps of any zerk build). Also -33% cd is quite alot considering most other professions only have -20%. Arcane auto proc protection/regen on switch as minor trait is already bad enough, but the new water and earth just make things worse. Adding a free slot for the major trait that procs arcane shield or proc more vigor/protection by being hit is another layer of kitten.

Burning damage is an issue yes, but being unkillable in any 1 on 1 situation is a way bigger issue.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

Yeah skip the part where I said “rather what they get to bring while having it”. In short condition ele is not the problem cele is they break the condition damage efficiency threshold easily while bringing too much. I understand cele should be best on ele but limits have to be made. Change Diamond Skin in the process just make it 4 sec of resistance after entering and exiting earth.

Embrace The Bold.7619:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

um what? Ele has had many builds, yah sure some aren’t going to be as good as D/D but it’s not their only build. Ele has access to bleed so no ele doesn’t just have burning.

1. If you count all the unviable stuff as “builds” than every class has about 2 million different builds now, which of course is dumb, so we don’t do that. We use the word build in pvp for stuff that is actually viable. Which for ele, has been the same thing since the start of the game, arcane/water/earth cantrips. Just switching 2 points from earth to air for a different boon on auras doesn’t make it a new build, just a VERY slight variation of the same meta build.

2. Read what I said: ele has either bleed or burn, never both at the same time. And bleeds don’t have a single trait so they might as well not exist for eles.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Embrace The Bold.7619:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

um what? Ele has had many builds, yah sure some aren’t going to be as good as D/D but it’s not their only build. Ele has access to bleed so no ele doesn’t just have burning.

1. If you count all the unviable stuff as “builds” than every class has about 2 million different builds now, which of course is dumb, so we don’t do that. We use the word build in pvp for stuff that is actually viable. Which for ele, has been the same thing since the start of the game, arcane/water/earth cantrips. Just switching 2 points from earth to air for a different boon on auras doesn’t make it a new build, just a VERY slight variation of the same meta build.

2. Read what I said: ele has either bleed or burn, never both at the same time. And bleeds don’t have a single trait so they might as well not exist for eles.

Another spoiled Ele folk who tries to play victim.

Almost every class has only one, or maximum two viable builds in competitive scene.
For Ele, having 2~3 is good enough. Those 2~3 are also the top or close to the top of the food-chain builds, while some of the other classes only have inferior builds that’re sub-optimal compare to any of the Ele or Mesmer’s builds.

Classes like ranger has 0 viable build for 1.5 year in competitive scene proven by WTS, TOL, and ESL. (your opinion do not matter, those 3 examples are hard evidence) Now they’re getting even worse because Anet feel like nerfing ranger more.
You Ele already enjoyed 1.5 year of being at the top of food chain, now you absolutely become the God of all classes and you’re complaining you’re UP?

Spoiled classes are spoiled. They know nothing about how harsh some of the bottom classes feel all these times and continue to spread out misinformation of how UP they are.

Embrace The Bold.7619:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

um what? Ele has had many builds, yah sure some aren’t going to be as good as D/D but it’s not their only build. Ele has access to bleed so no ele doesn’t just have burning.

I think the problem is that the newcomers and unimaginative Elementalists believe that D/D with Water/Earth/Arcane is the ONLY spec available to them. The more creative and better players of the class know better.

Never thought i would experience the time where players don’t complain about thieves in every single thread. I guess we hit rock bottom finally lol.

Back to topic:
- blind from shatter needs to be dodgable; it is kind of stupid that you get punished for dodging instant cast……..
- something either from CC or survival department needs to go, if mesmers are to be somehow balanced… atm just too much of everything; before patch mesmers were good in good hands, now mesmers are good in handls of even worst players :|
- burning in general needs some tonning down; it is not just ele issue imo; i did make posts about burning before patch but as always it just gets ignored and we end up being lab rats on live servers
- rampage needs either duration reduced, CD increased, stab effect reduced or not useable while in zerker stance…. otherwise i think dmg is actually ok, it is elite after all…

Mesmer’s GS coefficients need toning down too. Burning damage per stack is still too high.

Bad warriors are only successful with rampage? Uh, Crysis is in ESL at this very moment wrecking with rampage and winning only because of rampage. It’s sad an elite skill makes such a difference especially when you have an elite like entangling roots where a simple elixir from engi gets out of it or a port gets out of it . kittening sad.

blitzkrieg.2451:

Bad warriors are only successful with rampage? Uh, Crysis is in ESL at this very moment wrecking with rampage and winning only because of rampage. It’s sad an elite skill makes such a difference especially when you have an elite like entangling roots where a simple elixir from engi gets out of it or a port gets out of it . kittening sad.

Yet we sad ranger folks still need to take this kitten Elite for the cleanse because we literally have none from our weapons and other traits. Not working on stealth target only make things worse…

Not to mention our only strong Elite, spirit of nature, also got nerfed to ground. Who need a stationary heal with 120 cd, and can only rev once in an extremely small radius while being stationary?

Agreed, ranger elites are kitten and rampage as one got nerfed hard. They tried to make it good by pulsing fury to work with remorseless which in theory sounds good, but it’s complete kitten.

dominik.9721:

I don’t like to see people suddenly beeing successfuly allthough they have been bad before the patch.

mesmers are throwing random rupts and 14k shatters with a survivabilty even an ape could survive with

eles are chasing you over the whole map while you have thousands of bruning stacks on
yourself

and last but not least the 0815 warrior… oh things gonna bad I failed my dodge the 10th time now but whocaresihaverampage boys.

can we finally nerf this kitten?

a bit over the top arent ya? I love how most people consider fighting eles and rampage a L2P thing but for you its a cry and over exaggerate thing.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

Embrace The Bold.7619:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

um what? Ele has had many builds, yah sure some aren’t going to be as good as D/D but it’s not their only build. Ele has access to bleed so no ele doesn’t just have burning.

I think the problem is that the newcomers and unimaginative Elementalists believe that D/D with Water/Earth/Arcane is the ONLY spec available to them. The more creative and better players of the class know better.

No the problem is that Water/Arc/X celest cantrip is just better than anything else. Yes you can use earth/fire/air to fill the X and be effective, yes you can switch from dd to basically any other weapon and still reach relatively the same impact based on that one trait lineswap. Yeah you can even forgo arc for earth and run a water /earth /X build but bottom line is that it is LESS EFFECTIVE in the same role and arguably doesn’t change up the playstyle. We have no zerk burst build that is even competitive with a theif/mesmer/war/guard and signets/gliphs/arcane(most of them) dwarf in comparison to cantrip. Condi builds are still a joke across the board still lets not kid (although thats’ because of how condi and boons work in this game).

Now all of this said I think the current CELEST ele are on the OP side with mesmer in comparison to their respective role Celest ele>necro>engi right now. engi need a boost, ele need a tone-down.

Now with Ele I don’t believe the scaling of burning is the problem, there are 2 culprits, although one is much more difficulty to tackle without drastically changing the game. That is Might. The second is the amount of stacks/durrations and ease of application

Might is the problem with ele
Might as a buff is too good for hybrid classes. It gives both pwr and condi making it twice as effective on classes who utilize both attributes which is really only ele/engi and a bit of necro now.
I think a possible solution to might isn’t to reduce its scaling but to change how it works. I think every attack should REMOVE a stack of might, to compensate for this the scaling would actually increase might could give 250ish pwr/condi. The stacks don’t increase power in a stacking manner anymore, but instead just supply charges every ability consumes one stack (IE a channel that hits 5 times only take one stack, so does a single swing, and so does an AoE. Think stability but charges for offence) This would reduce the high-end self stacking that ele can achieve to 250 rather than 750(Lets be serious here that’s way to kittening much) and other classes that can only maintain 3-10 stacks of might would be buffed/unaffected by the change.

For Burst mes>theif/war/guard>most others.

I think mes could use a tonedown/seperation between their defensive capabilities stealth/inv/clones, burst, and interrupts. the traits need a higher boost on each respective area, and the baseline should be toned down.

Although I wont speak as if i know mesmer as well as ele.

Rampage has a lot of tweaks that can bring it down without destroying it. I think changing the stab generation to a flat 8-10 stacks that last the duration and are generated at the start are important. it would allow you to chain cc to break the stab. allowing you to lock down the war after breaking through it instead of constant stab generation that’s impossible to break. another solution is to reduce the health bonus allowing you to burst the rampage. The other solution is to allow cc to actually effect it. the reduction on slows and imob and the immune to slows during charges mean you cant kite the rampage anymore. The final option is to allow boon striping to strip rampage, currently the only counter is a transform, or consistent blind application. which very few classes have access to.

Aomine.5012:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Embrace The Bold.7619:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Sagat.3285:

Don’t mention guard they only have burn as damaging condition.

So does ele… (if an ele stacks burns they can’t bleed you and if they try to bleed you, lol, ele bleeds are extremely underpowered and you can’t stack burning while you try to bleed).

Nerfing burning is okay, but if you nerf ele they’ll go back to being a joke of a class again like they were for 1 year before celestial amulet was updated.

Even after this whole huge balance and feature patch, ele STILL only has a single build, the same build they’ve been using since the game was released.

Eles will always be either borderline op or a free kill depending on balancing as long as Arenanet refuses to finally rework ele defenses (they have and need all that sustain because they have no block, no stealth, no evade spam, all they have is boons as defense).

um what? Ele has had many builds, yah sure some aren’t going to be as good as D/D but it’s not their only build. Ele has access to bleed so no ele doesn’t just have burning.

1. If you count all the unviable stuff as “builds” than every class has about 2 million different builds now, which of course is dumb, so we don’t do that. We use the word build in pvp for stuff that is actually viable. Which for ele, has been the same thing since the start of the game, arcane/water/earth cantrips. Just switching 2 points from earth to air for a different boon on auras doesn’t make it a new build, just a VERY slight variation of the same meta build.

2. Read what I said: ele has either bleed or burn, never both at the same time. And bleeds don’t have a single trait so they might as well not exist for eles.

Another spoiled Ele folk who tries to play victim.

Almost every class has only one, or maximum two viable builds in competitive scene.
For Ele, having 2~3 is good enough. Those 2~3 are also the top or close to the top of the food-chain builds, while some of the other classes only have inferior builds that’re sub-optimal compare to any of the Ele or Mesmer’s builds.

Classes like ranger has 0 viable build for 1.5 year in competitive scene proven by WTS, TOL, and ESL. (your opinion do not matter, those 3 examples are hard evidence) Now they’re getting even worse because Anet feel like nerfing ranger more.
You Ele already enjoyed 1.5 year of being at the top of food chain, now you absolutely become the God of all classes and you’re complaining you’re UP?

Spoiled classes are spoiled. They know nothing about how harsh some of the bottom classes feel all these times and continue to spread out misinformation of how UP they are.

Compare ele before april 15th buff for them, eles have a reason to be “Spoiled” they were worse than ranger :P

Sucks 4 ranger that anet doesn’t know what to do with them, that doesn’t mean ele needs nerf or people cant defend ele. Burning needs (a tiny tiny tiny nerf) though & I’m an ele. When I face other eles, down to the wire their burning when it stacks high is a pain. But not detrimental to the fight most of the time.

rampage is fine and balanced, no further adjustments necessary.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

rampage is fine and balanced, no further adjustments necessary.

Yeah, all they need to do is make Rampage not a Physical Skill and everything is automatically fixed. Donnu what’s wrong with Anet.

Chasind.3128:

Compare ele before april 15th buff for them, eles have a reason to be “Spoiled” they were worse than ranger :P

Sucks 4 ranger that anet doesn’t know what to do with them, that doesn’t mean ele needs nerf or people cant defend ele. Burning needs (a tiny tiny tiny nerf) though & I’m an ele. When I face other eles, down to the wire their burning when it stacks high is a pain. But not detrimental to the fight most of the time.

Even if that was true, rangers have been meta in pvp for ~6 months over the 3 years of the game. They are subpar in wvw, and ok in pve. Eles meanwhile have been meta in 2 of those gametypes forever, and have now been meta in pvp for at least a year and half. I’m really tired of hearing eles say, “if you nerf us even a little bit, we will go back to how bad we were that one time.” Meanwhile, necros have been worst in pve since launch, and rangers and necros have been meta in pvp for a combined total of 8 months in the 3 years of the game.

If eles had to be out of the meta for 6 months, which they won’t be even with a few small nerfs, that’s ok. Anet has set the precedence other classes can be out of the meta for far longer than that, so yes eles are a bunch of spoiled brats. If they weren’t they would be advocating for buffs to all the classes that haven’t been meta much, but instead most are just being forum warriors for their class.

Also, if you don’t have any problem with the amount of passive procs, invulns, and damage the current cele build has you don’t play other classes. The only things that can deal with cele eles right now are mesmers, and boon corruption necros. The fact of the matter is they do way too much for a team, and do much of it too well. Eles need a nerf to some of their damage, and/or a nerf to some of their survivability or sustain. Intelligently placed shaves will keep the cele build viable, while making it less faceroll. Also, I’m all for them putting work into scepter and staff to make the skills less cumbersome in pvp.

zapv.8051:

Chasind.3128:

Compare ele before april 15th buff for them, eles have a reason to be “Spoiled” they were worse than ranger :P

Sucks 4 ranger that anet doesn’t know what to do with them, that doesn’t mean ele needs nerf or people cant defend ele. Burning needs (a tiny tiny tiny nerf) though & I’m an ele. When I face other eles, down to the wire their burning when it stacks high is a pain. But not detrimental to the fight most of the time.

Even if that was true, rangers have been meta in pvp for ~6 months over the 3 years of the game. They are subpar in wvw, and ok in pve. Eles meanwhile have been meta in 2 of those gametypes forever, and have now been meta in pvp for at least a year and half. I’m really tired of hearing eles say, “if you nerf us even a little bit, we will go back to how bad we were that one time.” Meanwhile, necros have been worst in pve since launch, and rangers and necros have been meta in pvp for a combined total of 8 months in the 3 years of the game.

If eles had to be out of the meta for 6 months, which they won’t be even with a few small nerfs, that’s ok. Anet has set the precedence other classes can be out of the meta for far longer than that, so yes eles are a bunch of spoiled brats. If they weren’t they would be advocating for buffs to all the classes that haven’t been meta much, but instead most are just being forum warriors for their class.

Also, if you don’t have any problem with the amount of passive procs, invulns, and damage the current cele build has you don’t play other classes. The only things that can deal with cele eles right now are mesmers, and boon corruption necros. The fact of the matter is they do way too much for a team, and do much of it too well. Eles need a nerf to some of their damage, and/or a nerf to some of their survivability or sustain. Intelligently placed shaves will keep the cele build viable, while making it less faceroll. Also, I’m all for them putting work into scepter and staff to make the skills less cumbersome in pvp.

Quoted for truth.

StickerHappy.8052:

Quoted for truth.

No it is not truth.

Eles do need a nerf and that nerf is to the amount of fire stacks they can build up.

Before patch cele eles were not the “op” build you speak of, in fact there was a lot of discussion of it even being replaced by shoutbow warrior. The problem is that with the patch eles saw a huge spike in the burning damage.

Case in point, it is ridiculous how the drake breath before did some reasonable damage and now if you hit it in full it will do about 6k-7k damage. This huge spike is simply because of fire. Ring of fire from dagger 4 also got this massive power up due to condi damage from fire stacks.

So what needs some nerf in the elementalist is the amount of fire stacks it can pull – or a more balanced approach – nerfing the damage of fire across the board, which would help fix the problem in a lot of classes. (A burn guardian can rip you to shreds really fast too if you aren’t careful, for example).

Quite frankly, what is “truth” is that it is stupid to use as an argument for nerfs “it is your time to stay out of meta”. Classes should be balanced not to be put in the freezer for a time, but to level the playing field for everyone and right now there are alot of absurd things and a lot of underpowered things.

And also I am all in favor of a nerf to the boons that elementalist have, it would provide a nice change of pace for the class. But then you need to compensate that by giving the elementalist something to avoid being such a boon dependent class, otherwise you are just removing it out of the meta because “it is the time for that class” (which, again, is just dumb way of “balancing”).

On the other hand, I agree, mesmer and warriors have reached a point where it is very problematic.

Shatter mesmer can utterly destroy you with several bursts while having a very high survivability – given by the amount of misdirections, interrupts and still being able to be somewhat damage resilient. Before this wasn’t much of an issue because if he got you by surprise you were down, otherwise you could try to avoid it and take the glass mesmer down, now it is just too much.

Warrior rampage is absurd. yes they have big tells on their attacks, but they have good chase abilities, they have a lot of stability and not to mention the warriors innate bulkiness makes this elite THE Elite right now. My only solution for the warrior rampage has been dodging the first attack and then popping invulnerability while trying to get away, you simply cannot compete against the warrior when it pulls that Elite.

The problem is just that, the elite needs a way for you to compete with it, perhaps the possibility of interrupting it more, or perhaps tuning down on the damage (it gets too much for being a physical skill) or slightly shortening the duration (perhaps this might be the best solution).

Azel.4786:

StickerHappy.8052:

Quoted for truth.

snip

Reread what I said. I said very clearly eles needed a few small shaves, but that it would be ok if they weren’t in the meta for 6 months. I did not say eles should be out of the meta for 6 months. My response was to all of the eles that seem to think their class doesn’t need any nerfs (the fact is that 2 eles are being taken on many teams, which means they need a nerf). Many ele players are saying if their class gets nerfed at all they won’t be meta anymore. I was simply noting that even if that did happen it would be ok because other classes have been there for far longer. I also noted that in general the ele population is extremely spoiled in that they have been meta in every game mode for most of the existence of the game, and if they were really looking for balance those same players would be advocating for buffs to the professions that very clearly have sucked for most of the game.

I was also noting the common, problematic attitude many posters on this forum have. Namely that their class is always UP and should never get nerfed ever (as is the case with most of the mesmers, warriors, and eles on the forum recently). What’s even worse is how all these players get rewarded for their efforts consistently, and how it has brought this game down.

Extreme.8350:

Pepsi.8907:

Mesmer needs shaving on CS and PU and fix on Mender’s Purity and Blinding Dissipation
the problem with ele is burning, not ele
Rampage is an elite with telegraphed animation that are easy to avoid, l2kite

Ok so i can agree on nerfing pu since stealth camping is useless in pvp.
but they need blinding dissepeation not to be free kills or they need heavy armor.
Nerfing cs sure but atleast lower cd on diversion so they can actually mess you up

This.

If you guys want to nerf Mesmers more, add thief and its stealth mechanics too.

Nerf all 3 at the same time? I’m sold.

zapv.8051:

Reread what I said. I said very clearly eles needed a few small shaves, but that it would be ok if they weren’t in the meta for 6 months. I did not say eles should be out of the meta for 6 months. My response was to all of the eles that seem to think their class doesn’t need any nerfs (the fact is that 2 eles are being taken on many teams, which means they need a nerf). Many ele players are saying if their class gets nerfed at all they won’t be meta anymore. I was simply noting that even if that did happen it would be ok because other classes have been there for far longer.

I was also noting the common, problematic attitude many posters on this forum have. Namely that their class is always UP and should never get nerfed ever (as is the case with most of the mesmers, warriors, and eles on the forum recently).

Yes I read it again, in fact I even add an addendum that rangers do need love – a lot – I mean why the hell they killed spirits with this patch? Plus a lot of other weird choices and the recent nerf to the call of the wild on pet swap trait…….. Shortbow still feels like a horrible weapon for me – it was my favorite 1-1/2 year back…

But again, a class staying out of meta for a period of time is not ok in any shape or form. You might not suggest it (only imply it wouldn’t be a bad thing), but that is still wrong and harmful to the player base – think about, with so much competition in games why would someone whose class as been discarded continue playing? Classes that aren’t in meta should be brought into meta, classes that are op should have the op part nerfed.

For instance, the fire damage is absurd… it needs – desperately – a tone down across the board…

Nerfing boons on eles, fine there is no problem with that, but then what? Ele’s have crap armor and health and rely on protection to reduce damage…. Other low armor / low health classes have a lot of mechanics to reflect damage, heal, dodge, stealth, etc. – heck mesmer is getting something akin to a second health bar…. Ele’s on the other hand are trying to desperately hold on to that protection and a few defensive moves if you use focus (Diamond skin is a horrible trait that I agree with the suggestion of having it be a resistance boon rather than what it is).

On the other hand what about scepter? It is still a horrible weapon and ANET hasn’t even said a word about it getting any adjustments…. If you even think about the prospect of warhorn for ele’s as its new weapon (Terrible terrible decision if true) eles will continue to have a good main hand weapon (dagger) and a bad/niche weapon (scepter).

When you think that ele’s got only 2 main hand weapons, leaving one as a bad/niche weapon is a horrible / lazy decision.

Also what about the utilities? Why ele’s continue to have the worst elites ever – yeah I played ranger a lot and ranger needs a lot of attention in this department, but at least entangle got decent with the CD reduction coupled with the Wilderness survival trait, I mean, it is terrible that it is more of a condi removal / fury giving skill, but at least it has uses….

And the other utilities of the ele? Garbage except for cantrips and to some extent signets (but those even got worse with the patch). Some arcane skills are used with fresh air, glyphs are completely ignored and conjurers are gimmick weapons.

Rangers got: survival skills which are good, signets that are good, traps that are good, shouts that are average and spirits which are terrible/joke.

Azel.4786:

StickerHappy.8052:

Quoted for truth.

No it is not truth.

Eles do need a nerf and that nerf is to the amount of fire stacks they can build up.

Before patch cele eles were not the “op” build you speak of, in fact there was a lot of discussion of it even being replaced by shoutbow warrior. The problem is that with the patch eles saw a huge spike in the burning damage.

Case in point, it is ridiculous how the drake breath before did some reasonable damage and now if you hit it in full it will do about 6k-7k damage. This huge spike is simply because of fire. Ring of fire from dagger 4 also got this massive power up due to condi damage from fire stacks.

So what needs some nerf in the elementalist is the amount of fire stacks it can pull – or a more balanced approach – nerfing the damage of fire across the board, which would help fix the problem in a lot of classes. (A burn guardian can rip you to shreds really fast too if you aren’t careful, for example).

Quite frankly, what is “truth” is that it is stupid to use as an argument for nerfs “it is your time to stay out of meta”. Classes should be balanced not to be put in the freezer for a time, but to level the playing field for everyone and right now there are alot of absurd things and a lot of underpowered things.

And also I am all in favor of a nerf to the boons that elementalist have, it would provide a nice change of pace for the class. But then you need to compensate that by giving the elementalist something to avoid being such a boon dependent class, otherwise you are just removing it out of the meta because “it is the time for that class” (which, again, is just dumb way of “balancing”).

On the other hand, I agree, mesmer and warriors have reached a point where it is very problematic.

Shatter mesmer can utterly destroy you with several bursts while having a very high survivability – given by the amount of misdirections, interrupts and still being able to be somewhat damage resilient. Before this wasn’t much of an issue because if he got you by surprise you were down, otherwise you could try to avoid it and take the glass mesmer down, now it is just too much.

Warrior rampage is absurd. yes they have big tells on their attacks, but they have good chase abilities, they have a lot of stability and not to mention the warriors innate bulkiness makes this elite THE Elite right now. My only solution for the warrior rampage has been dodging the first attack and then popping invulnerability while trying to get away, you simply cannot compete against the warrior when it pulls that Elite.

The problem is just that, the elite needs a way for you to compete with it, perhaps the possibility of interrupting it more, or perhaps tuning down on the damage (it gets too much for being a physical skill) or slightly shortening the duration (perhaps this might be the best solution).

Burning damage being nerfed across the board because 2 classes (arguably 3 with engi) are able to produce an absurd amount of burning uptime would hurt the other classes that use burning damage for supplemental damage. You would destroy condi ranger even worse than it is in pvp for example.

The best approach really is to just heavily lower the burning application of both ele and guardian instead of ruining viability in every class that truly need burning.

Azel.4786:

zapv.8051:

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I’m not saying eles should be out of the meta. I’m saying it can’t be that big of a deal if they are out of the meta, when necro and ranger have been out of the meta almost the whole game and seemingly no one cares. The problem is that you can’t justify working on eles when they have meta builds in every gametype, while other classes sit on the benches in those same gametypes.

All the time I hear people say, “oh well eles have only had one meta build in pvp”. While I’m all for more diversity, you can’t really justify working on diversity for a class that is great at a lot of things while other classes can’t even perform at the minimum level to get on most teams and in most groups. Once all the classes have at least one build that is very good in every game mode, then we can talk about adding diversity and fixing up more and more of the weak weapons and utilities. Until then, any talk of nerfs killing a class will fall on deaf ears because many classes are already dead.

One last point on the state of the current elementalist. Back on June 25th, 2013 necromancers got a trait called dhummfire that put them on the map. Many considered this trait to be massively overpowered and necros received nerfs to many of their skills and this trait in consequence. Despite this, when that trait was released and for the two months where it was supposedly super overpowered, teams still only took one necromancer. Similarly, at the peak of spirit rangers, teams were only taking one ranger on their teams. Compare that to elementalists now, where teams are taking 2 at a time, and you’ll understand why elementalists need nerfs and why many people in the community feel their is blatant class bias in this game.

blitzkrieg.2451:

Burning damage being nerfed across the board because 2 classes (arguably 3 with engi) are able to produce an absurd amount of burning uptime would hurt the other classes that use burning damage for supplemental damage. You would destroy condi ranger even worse than it is in pvp for example.

The best approach really is to just heavily lower the burning application of both ele and guardian instead of ruining viability in every class that truly need burning.

That could be an alternative as well, but I believe fire needs to go down and bleed needs to go slightly up. That would improve condi ranger and keep a better balance on burning.

zapv.8051:

Azel.4786:

zapv.8051:

snip

snip

I’m not saying eles should be out of the meta. I’m saying it can’t be that big of a deal if they are out of the meta, when necro and ranger have been out of the meta almost the whole game and seemingly no one cares. The problem is that you can’t justify working on eles when they have meta builds in every gametype, while other classes sit on the benches in those same gametypes.

All the time I hear people say, “oh well eles have only had one meta build in pvp”. While I’m all for more diversity, you can’t really justify working on diversity for a class that is great at a lot of things while other classes can’t even perform at the minimum level to get on most teams and in most groups. Once all the classes have at least one build that is very good in every game mode, then we can talk about adding diversity and fixing up more and more of the weak weapons and utilities. Until then, any talk of nerfs killing a class will fall on deaf ears because many classes are already dead.

One last point on the state of the current elementalist. Back on June 25th, 2013 necromancers got a trait called dhummfire that put them on the map. Many considered this trait to be massively overpowered and necros received nerfs to many of their skills and this trait in consequence. Despite this, when that trait was released and for the two months where it was supposedly super overpowered, teams still only took one necromancer. Similarly, at the peak of spirit rangers, teams were only taking one ranger on their teams. Compare that to elementalists now, where teams are taking 2 at a time, and you’ll understand why elementalists need nerfs and why many people in the community feel their is blatant class bias in this game.

Honestly, I don’t even care if ranger comes back into the meta. It’ll be cried about so much then nerfed again like spirit ranger was and also like BM was. Ranger simply cannot be in the meta for this reason. It will just completely cried about , hell , it’s not even meta and there’s a new thread about ranger longbow every day. Imagine if this class was in the meta. It’s obviously the most hated class by the game’s community, there’s really no question about that.

The class in it’s entirety needs a revamp or something for a role in pvp but really, at the end of the day, if it gets any role it’s just whined about until a nerf occurs then it’s back out of the meta again and again.

As a ranger main, I’m honestly AFRAID of getting buffs to the class for this very reason. Many buffs are very short lived due to the negativity towards this class. Taunt is one of them, and it will be nerfed more and more until it’s beyond useless.

blitzkrieg.2451:

snip

Well that’s depressing.

@azel
sorry if I come off as a little rude or angry, I’m sure we agree on many things this game needs like fixes to bad weapons and utils. We probably just have differences in opinion about fixes for eles.

zapv.8051:

I’m not saying eles should be out of the meta. I’m saying it can’t be that big of a deal if they are out of the meta, when necro and ranger have been out of the meta almost the whole game and seemingly no one cares. The problem is that you can’t justify working on eles when they have meta builds in every gametype, while other classes sit on the benches in those same gametypes.

All the time I hear people say, “oh well eles have only had one meta build in pvp”. While I’m all for more diversity, you can’t really justify working on diversity for a class that is great at a lot of things while other classes can’t even perform at the minimum level to get on most teams and in most groups. Once all the classes have at least one build that is very good in every game mode, then we can talk about adding diversity and fixing up more and more of the weak weapons and utilities. Until then, any talk of nerfs killing a class will fall on deaf ears because many classes are already dead.

One last point on the state of the current elementalist. Back on June 25th, 2013 necromancers got a trait called dhummfire that put them on the map. Many considered this trait to be massively overpowered and necros received nerfs to many of their skills and this trait in consequence. Despite this, when that trait was released and for the two months where it was supposedly super overpowered, teams still only took one necromancer. Similarly, at the peak of spirit rangers, teams were only taking one ranger on their teams. Compare that to elementalists now, where teams are taking 2 at a time, and you’ll understand why elementalists need nerfs and why many people in the community feel their is blatant class bias in this game.

Different opinions I guess… for me it feels like elementalist have no class favoritism towards it by ANET. All the changes so far have always been focused on a single build spec – that is it. ANET just concentrates the efforts of the elementalist team in fine tuning D/D Cantrip and leaves the rest forgotten – heck at this point I don’t even think ANET knows what the other skills of the elementalist do.

So ANET just wants to leave elementalist where it is and forget about it while it focus on other things.

Also I see people making topics and commeting on needed buffs and nerfs on the elementalist forums all the time, something I rarely – if ever – see in other classes forums… (granted the rangers don’t have much to say on the part of nerfs and I hear ya on that – but necros – broken class as it is – have absurd power specs that everyone just husshes about it). That is just my two cents.

And really, fix fire and you will see that elementalist will go back to their past stage – having one good build and that is it. Fire needs desperate fixing – and it is baffling that nothing has been done to tone it down yet, but not the elementalist class as a whole needs nerfs – it needs changes to make it viable in alternate specs.

Lastly, what is wrong with a class requesting diversity for it?

There are balance teams for every class, everyone has the chance to have changes done concurrently so what is so wrong with eles wanting to have build diversity and not having to play the exact same style for another 1-2 years because its the only good one? Other classes should be requesting their much needed changes and ANET has the capacity to make them at the same time – though it seems that ANET does not utilize it fully.

So the problem is how ANET handles balancing and how these teams that have a few classes under their responsibility handle the balance changes. It would be great if there was more interaction between them and the community, perhaps then changes could be done more expediently and with better result – and less forum wars between the classes.

For example, during the changes elementalist were screaming for improvements to other build specs – got 0 on that. Rangers, likewise, were screaming for improvements and not to have their chaotic trait lines (seriously it is so weird that things are still awkwardly placed) and not to have spirits killed – got 0 on that.

zapv.8051:

blitzkrieg.2451:

snip

Well that’s depressing.

@azel
sorry if I come off as a little rude or angry, I’m sure we agree on many things this game needs like fixes to bad weapons and utils. We probably just have differences in opinion about fixes for eles.

Apologies too. Just been a long crazy day today and sometimes its good to vent, wherever it is.

And yea, we agree on the concept (lots of broken things need fixing) just differ on how to approach it, which is good to make sure all angles are covered.

blitzkrieg.2451:

snip

I hear you on that, my first 80 was ranger and when I was at the head start I was eager to try it.

It was a really fun class too and in fact the first thing that got me angry with ANET was the stealth nerf to shortbow…. that I will never forget because ANET never apologized for blatantly lying to the ranger community in that aspect.

I hear everything about the ranger issues and I agree a ton with it. I picked up elementalist as a “second main” but really loved the style of the class (class mechanic was really fun) so I swapped to it as my real main, but still pick my ranger up sometimes for some solo roaming in WvW and some PvP.

And yes, community reaction towards rangers is absurd. One significant buff and its like World War III started.

I think ranger forums are one of the most leveled and reasonable forums there is. I rarely see anything absurd there and a lot of the considerations make sense / could be improved upon. ANET would really benefit in interacting with it more to fix the class

Although ANET would benefit greatly if it simply interacted with the community – they have an amazing game and could really challenge the spot of no. 1 MMO, but their PR and community interaction really keeps this game from reaching its full potential. – we should have ANET team have a training course with CD Projekt Red team on how to deal with the community, those guys do it very well – Or if they just want an example to motivating them in doing so, a more closer to home example is how Blizzard managed to fix a lot of wrong things with D3 by simply getting closer to its community (game is still not that amazing, but the improvement in that aspect a couple of years back really saved it).

Pepsi.8907:

the problem with ele is burning, not ele

This… it is not ele. I main guard and I swapped to torch while using purging flames and judge’s intervention. I can down people 3v1…. being a complete n00b to PvP, I’m sure that isn’t normal… but I’ll keep doing it as long as mesmers can stack a ridiculous amount of conditions on someone. Burning is pretty OP right now.

Rampage from war is ridiculous

Burn pressure from ele is ridiculous

Confounding Suggestions (5 sec cd) + Instant Daze from mesmer is just absolutely ridiculous

I don’t think the classes themselves are over powered, but just these mechanics specifically make them over the top

Cynz.9437:

- rampage needs either duration reduced, CD increased, stab effect reduced or not useable while in zerker stance…. otherwise i think dmg is actually ok, it is elite after all…

Meanwhile most other elites just kittening suck kitten in comparison to rampage:

Thief:
- Basi venom sucks against anything that isnt zerker (also countered by most anti thief traits)
- Daggerstorm LOOK AT ME PLS KILL ME IM JUST SPINNING AROUND
- Thieves Guild dies within 1s, gets oneshotted by Rampage

Ele:
- Fiery GS. It’s okay and has its uses
- Tornado: LAWL LOOK AT ME BEING USELESS FOR 10s
- Elemental: slightly better than thieves guild

Ranger:
-RaO: is ridiculously bad in comparison what rampage does
- Entangle: nothing more than an annoyance most of the time
- Spirit: see Thieves Guild/Elemental

Conclusion:
Rampage is ridiculously OP now, its a kittening nobrainer. Pulsing stability is the worst kittening joke ever, they should’ve left it as it was.

If damage from all sources was reduced slightly, across the board, I suspect that (excluding bug fixes) few individual skills would need changes.

Might be worth discussion.

Well, with mesmer you can pretty much point out what the problem is, a couple of traits and the damage is a bit OTT.

With elementalist, I have no idea where to begin. Celestial amulet, new condition formulae, burn stacking, might stacking, passive defensive procs, EA made a minor.

I really do not believe that they will nerf Ele by much if at all, too much pressure on them from the top teams, which, by coincidence, use 2 Eles on teams.

So most likely this will happen:
-Ele will be shaved ever so slightly, probably through burning and celestial amulet.
-Mesmer daze into stun will be nerfed a bit, perhaps PU, but they will remain super strong to be a viable Ele counter
-Rampage perhaps toned down a bit

But they will avoid the core of the problem, Ele doing everything and thus always being on a team.