Nalhadia – Kaineng
Casuals need fixes for legendary
Why?
And the answer isn’t “because I want it” or “because people will quit if they can’t get it”.
Well what’s the benefit? Honestly. Nobody’s been able to explain that one.
What is the benefit to having long term goals that are exclusive to a specific activity?
It’s not “to get people to try something new,” because it’s a long term goal. Long term means “well after someone has tried something and determined whether they enjoy it.” Rewards to “get people to try it” should be earned relatively quickly, so that you try it, decide whether you enjoy it or not, get the reward either way, and if you had fun, continue playing, and if you didn’t, move on happy.
It’s not to “reward dedication,” because you don’t need exclusivity for that. Long term goals can be a good thing, but they should be about doing the things you enjoy for long periods of time, nobody’s life is improved by you doing something you hate for long periods of time, NOBODY’S. So yeah, have long term goals, but be flexible in how you can earn them, so that you can have a reasonable spread of activities you can do to earn them, and be more likely to find one that falls within the area of things you enjoy doing.
Games are meant to be fun. Fun should be rewarded. Fun is subjective. Therefore, rewards should embrace multiple subjective positions, rather than being locked into a single element of the game that does not appeal to everyone.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Well what’s the benefit? Honestly. Nobody’s been able to explain that one.
What is the benefit to having long term goals that are exclusive to a specific activity?
Sure, here’s your essay. The benefit of long term goals, particularly in an MMO, is to provide a feeling of steady advancement.
This is for a few main reasons. The biggest is that RPGs rely on a cycle of explore/collect/improve/overcome to provide their enjoyment. A long term goal like a legendary fits naturally into this cycle.
Another is that MMOs tend not to be exclusively games, but also hobbies. The most direct comparison I can draw is to Warhammer; you may not necessarily have fun putting together and painting your little models, but it’s an enjoyable pastime and you have a sense of accomplishment once you have completed your little army.
They are also good at asking players to step outside the immediate box of what they’re doing and try something else. This isn’t to say that people who play PvE will go and try sPvP, but there are several parts of the new Precursor chains that do this. For a PvE precursor, you need to go into fractals, you need to do open-world content both in the new and old world, and you need to go into dungeons to finish your gift. For the PvP legendary, you need to do the League Professional achievements- and partly because of how leagues work, you may be inclined to try out Stronghold rather than Conquest.
Why is having them specific to an activity useful?
In GW2’s case in particular, the game has three primary avenues that it’s cut out for itself; PvE (with the subcategory of raids), WvW and sPvP. Players tend to sort themselves into these categories, and while there is overflow, they tend to pick one of them and stick to it. To have all three of these items provide the same rewards has problems.
For one, if all modes of play provide the same rewards, there is inevitably going to be one mode which oustrips the other two. This has been a big part of why they have worked so hard to add reward tracks and revamp PvP’s reward system; PvE always outshone PvP for how much gold you would intake. For someone who finds PvP and PvE equally fun, the only rational choice is to pick PvE- you actually make a bit of money there. By providing unique rewards to a mode of play, they have an ‘out’ from this logic train; yes you may make less money from PvP but you get X unique reward.
You can see this problem in action in WvW; there is no reason to do it because the ‘best reward’ you can currently get from it is a set of exotic skins which you get from Badges of Honor which you get from Achievement Chests which after even a modest play time you can get enough to get the two unique cosmetic sets.
It’s not “to get people to try something new,” because it’s a long term goal. Long term means “well after someone has tried something and determined whether they enjoy it.” Rewards to “get people to try it” should be earned relatively quickly, so that you try it, decide whether you enjoy it or not, get the reward either way, and if you had fun, continue playing, and if you didn’t, move on happy.
No, it is not to provide an incentive for people to join the game mode. If it targets any group of people, it is targeting middling players to try to get them to become long-term players- or at least, long enough to get the long-term goal completed before they return to middling.
It’s not to “reward dedication,” because you don’t need exclusivity for that. Long term goals can be a good thing, but they should be about doing the things you enjoy for long periods of time, nobody’s life is improved by you doing something you hate for long periods of time, NOBODY’S. So yeah, have long term goals, but be flexible in how you can earn them, so that you can have a reasonable spread of activities you can do to earn them, and be more likely to find one that falls within the area of things you enjoy doing.
Firstly, that’s nonsense. Doing something you hate for long periods of time is called an entry level job, and entry level jobs are incredibly rewarding in the long term.
Secondarily, you are ignoring the plurality of long term goals. There are long term goals for people who enjoy every aspect of the game (except WvW, as I’ve said above). There’s a fractal legendary backpiece. There is legendary armor in raids. There are legendary weapons which take you through general PvE content. There are long term goals and long term rewards. If you enjoy doing any of those types of content, then you do in fact have long term goals available already; PvE is really overflowing with the things.
Games are meant to be fun. Fun should be rewarded. Fun is subjective. Therefore, rewards should embrace multiple subjective positions, rather than being locked into a single element of the game that does not appeal to everyone.
“Fun should be rewarded” is not correct. Mastery, commitment and most importantly success should be rewarded.
Oh, also you didn’t answer the question.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
Sure, here’s your essay. The benefit of long term goals, particularly in an MMO, is to provide a feeling of steady advancement.
Nope. You aren’t answering the question, you’re answering your own.
I did not dispute the value in long term goals. Long term goals are good. The question was "What is the benefit to having long term goals that are exclusive to a specific activity? "
They are also good at asking players to step outside the immediate box of what they’re doing and try something else. This isn’t to say that people who play PvE will go and try sPvP, but there are several parts of the new Precursor chains that do this.
I also addressed this point, There certainly is value in getting players to TRY things outside their comfort zone, but nobody with a rational mind could characterise the Path to Ascension achievement chain as “trying” PvP. It is at minimum 180 rounds, realistically 2-3 times that, that is not, in any rational sense, “trying” PvP, that is full on dedication to the game mode.
Again, dedication to the game as a whole? A good thing. Trying new things? A good thing. Combine the two and it becomes awful for anyone who tries and does not enjoy that new things, there is absolutely ZERO positive value to that outcome.
For one, if all modes of play provide the same rewards, there is inevitably going to be one mode which oustrips the other two.
It may be impossible to perfectly balance all three modes, but “reasonably” balancing them is not that difficult to do. So long as you can gain meaningful progress in the mode you most enjoy, you can play that mode without feeling that you’re too far behind the curve. Ideally they would balance them asymmetrically, with one mode being the easiest way of achieving some things, but the hardest to acquire others, but so long as there is nothing that you can’t earn in your preferred mode, and there’s nothing that is way too unbalanced, 2-3 times as much time and effort involved, then it’s not so bad.
Making your preferred rewards impossible to earn through your preferred activities is the worst possible solution to that potential imbalance.
I don’t dispute that PvP and WvW could perhaps need some better reward elements, but these should not be exclusive reward elements, they should just be the same things you can earn through PvE, taking about as long and as much effort to earn. If someone wants to be able to WvW all day, they should be able to WvW all day, and still meaningfully progress towards whatever their goal may be.
No, it is not to provide an incentive for people to join the game mode. If it targets any group of people, it is targeting middling players to try to get them to become long-term players- or at least, long enough to get the long-term goal completed before they return to middling.
That’s a bad goal then. They should never be targeting middling players to play more of the mode. Middling players have figured out what makes them happy, and it’s not playing more of that mode. Respect their choice, allow them to play as much or as little as they like, that is the RIGHT amount, because it’s the amount that makes them happy. Any different amount is the WRONG amount, and should not be encouraged.
Firstly, that’s nonsense. Doing something you hate for long periods of time is called an entry level job, and entry level jobs are incredibly rewarding in the long term.
And that’s nonsense. This is a game. If you’re comparing a game to a minimum wage job in what you believe is a positive manner then you’ve clearly made a wrong turn somewhere.
Secondarily, you are ignoring the plurality of long term goals. There are long term goals for people who enjoy every aspect of the game (except WvW, as I’ve said above). There’s a fractal legendary backpiece. There is legendary armor in raids. There are legendary weapons which take you through general PvE content. There are long term goals and long term rewards. If you enjoy doing any of those types of content, then you do in fact have long term goals available already; PvE is really overflowing with the things.
Yes, and my position extends to cover ALL of those things. If you love to PvE, but want the Ascension wings, then you should be able to earn them via PvE. If you love PvP but love the look of a Legendary weapon, then you should be able to earn it entirely (or at least mostly) through PvP. No item is off the table here, I’m not saying “what’s PvE is mine and what’s PvP is mine too,” I’m saying “Everyone should have access to ALL the things.” Items can have a native mode, one where it is slightly easier and more flavorful to earn them, but there should still be paths to earn them through other methods.
A simple example I’ve used in the past is that PvPers often object to needing world completion to craft a Legendary. Well fair enough on that, so what if there was an alternate PvP-only track to earning them? It could be something along the lines of requiring you to complete each dungeon track at least once, and completing X amount of matches on each of the available PvP maps, or other similar objectives, something that would add up to at least as much time and effort as getting World Completion, likely a bit more since it would involve less variety of activities, but at the end of the process you’d have a Gift of Exploration and could make a Legendary with it without having to do a single heart quest.
You should have long term goals, but you should not have to pursue content that you do not enjoy for long periods of time, you should be spending that time in the parts of the game that you do enjoy.
“Fun should be rewarded” is not correct. Mastery, commitment and most importantly success should be rewarded.
You’re thinking of what is known as a “job.” We’re talking about games here. If a game is thought of as a job, then you have failed at game design.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
Nope. You aren’t answering the question, you’re answering your own.
I did not dispute the value in long term goals. Long term goals are good. The question was "What is the benefit to having long term goals that are exclusive to a specific activity? "
You’re right, I apologize. It is very insulting to ensure that we are on the same page, and it is very insulting to answer your question fully. I will endeavor to ensure that all future responses will be kitten and inadequate so that you may quickly and easily misinterpret them to try to make your case.
I also addressed this point, There certainly is value in getting players to TRY things outside their comfort zone, but nobody with a rational mind could characterise the Path to Ascension achievement chain as “trying” PvP. It is at minimum 180 rounds, realistically 2-3 times that, that is not, in any rational sense, “trying” PvP, that is full on dedication to the game mode.
Speaking of misinterpretation, that’s just a bang up job of completely cutting out the second section of that paragraph! Pat yourself on the back, you’ve done great.
If you’d read the rest of the paragraph you’d read that I meant variation within that game mode.
Again, dedication to the game as a whole? A good thing. Trying new things? A good thing. Combine the two and it becomes awful for anyone who tries and does not enjoy that new things, there is absolutely ZERO positive value to that outcome.
Your decision to plough through PvP because you want a shiny even though you hate the game mode is nobody’s fault but your own.
Also you’re quite wrong on the “no positive value”, you’re probably easy to beat so anyone who plays against you and has the same mindset as you probably appreciates the feed.
It may be impossible to perfectly balance all three modes
Glad you agree.
, but “reasonably” balancing them is not that difficult to do. So long as you can gain meaningful progress in the mode you most enjoy, you can play that mode without feeling that you’re too far behind the curve.
http://us.ncsoft.com/en/careers/
If you think balancing a very large game’s economy and rewards system is “not that difficult to do” then you’ve got a promising career ahead of you. Hell, I’d launch a startup and hire you. Half the MMO is the rewards schema.
Ideally they would balance them asymmetrically
Oh you mean that thing they’re doing? Where this asymmetry exists? In skins? The items provide no numerical or mechanical benefit, only an arbitrary aesthetic one?
with one mode being the easiest way of achieving some things, but the hardest to acquire others, but so long as there is nothing that you can’t earn in your preferred mode, and there’s nothing that is way too unbalanced, 2-3 times as much time and effort involved, then it’s not so bad.
My preferred mode is cybering in Salma District.
Gimme my legendaries
Making your preferred rewards impossible to earn through your preferred activities is the worst possible solution to that potential imbalance.
The Ascension has no monetary value and it has no mechanical value that is not attainable in any other way.
Next.
I don’t dispute that PvP and WvW could perhaps need some better reward elements, but these should not be exclusive reward elements, they should just be the same things you can earn through PvE, taking about as long and as much effort to earn.
I thought you just said that these rewards should take 2-3 times as long to earn. Contradicting yourself so soon is not exactly a master stroke.
If someone wants to be able to WvW all day, they should be able to WvW all day, and still meaningfully progress towards whatever their goal may be.
Yes, that would be lovely, but wishes and fairy dreams are really not hard to come by.
If you want to boost WvW participation overnight, start a new WvW season and bring back the heroes/mistbound weapons without EotM progression.
That’s a bad goal then. They should never be targeting middling players to play more of the mode. Middling players have figured out what makes them happy, and it’s not playing more of that mode.
I’ve already explained the logical loop that tells you why they move the way they do.
Respect their choice, allow them to play as much or as little as they like, that is the RIGHT amount, because it’s the amount that makes them happy. Any different amount is the WRONG amount, and should not be encouraged.
Okay, I want to play no PvP. I want to spend all my time cybering in Salma District. Zero PvP and a thousand cyber hours is the correct amount.
Legendary please
And that’s nonsense. This is a game. If you’re comparing a game to a minimum wage job in what you believe is a positive manner then you’ve clearly made a wrong turn somewhere.
I’m not making a comparison. I’m poking kitten in your logic.
You were speaking of wrong turns?… It seems like you’ve completely misread what I’ve said.
Yes, and my position extends to cover ALL of those things.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t a flawed position. That just means you want to implement a flawed system across the breadth of the game.
A simple example I’ve used in the past is that PvPers often object to needing world completion to craft a Legendary. Well fair enough on that, so what if there was an alternate PvP-only track to earning them?
There is. For the legendary we’re talking about. The Ascension. Y’know, that PvP reward. It has a set of PvP achievements which you have to complete, two of the MF components require league tickets, there’s a reward track with a component you need in it, you can get Mystic Clovers from reward tracks…
I swear, it’s like explaining it to someone who’s from the moon. If you just make that little link you’ll figure it out.
It could be something along the lines of requiring you to complete each dungeon track at least once
Yeah this step actually is in the reward tracks. You need tokens from dungeons for the Gifts and you can get those tokens through the tracks.
and completing X amount of matches on each of the available PvP maps, or other similar objectives, something that would add up to at least as much time and effort as getting World Completion, likely a bit more since it would involve less variety of activities, but at the end of the process you’d have a Gift of Exploration and could make a Legendary with it without having to do a single heart quest.
Again, moon man, they did this for the Ascension. For reasons. I’ve already explained one of them to you.
You should have long term goals, but you should not have to pursue content that you do not enjoy for long periods of time, you should be spending that time in the parts of the game that you do enjoy.
You don’t have to spend time in content you don’t enjoy. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head. Go do something else in the game. Go do what you enjoy.
You’re thinking of what is known as a “job.” We’re talking about games here. If a game is thought of as a job, then you have failed at game design.
If we’re gonna follow the “fun should be rewarded” train of thought then Salma District legendary please.
Preferably Kraitkin. For reasons.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
Speaking of misinterpretation, that’s just a bang up job of completely cutting out the second section of that paragraph! Pat yourself on the back, you’ve done great.
Just to avoid misunderstanding, if I do not quote a portion, it is out of brevity, not lack of attention. Rest assured that I read it and that my comments are reflective of its entire contents.
Your decision to plough through PvP because you want a shiny even though you hate the game mode is nobody’s fault but your own.
No, it’s a shared responsibility with the game’s developers, who both chose to make the shiny and lock it behind specific content. If someone places a mousetrap, and puts cheese on it, they can’t absolve themselves of any responsibility if a mouse’s neck gets broken in the process.
Also you’re quite wrong on the “no positive value”, you’re probably easy to beat so anyone who plays against you and has the same mindset as you probably appreciates the feed.
Can I take your devolution into ad hominem attacks as a sign that you concede the primary topic of discussion already?
Oh you mean that thing they’re doing? Where this asymmetry exists? In skins? The items provide no numerical or mechanical benefit, only an arbitrary aesthetic one?
I said asymmetrically balance the methods as in, “if you want Skin A, then you can pursue it via paths X, Y, or Z, whichever you enjoy, and some will take slightly more work than others, but they’ll all get you there eventually.”
This bares no relation to having “Skins A, B, and C, which can ONLY be earned via paths X, Y, and Z respectively, and no path could ever lead to the other two rewards.” This is impossible to balance because it’s entirely subjective. If you like skin B then you MUST do path Y, whether you enjoy it or not, which results in a guaranteed negative experience for that player (either he pursues path Y, which is negative, or he fails to achieve skin B, which is negative, there is no path to a positive outcome).
My preferred mode is cybering in Salma District.
Gimme my legendaries
No, that’s called a strawman argument and I will not entertain it. Do better, get good.
The Ascension has no monetary value and it has no mechanical value that is not attainable in any other way.
If it is not worth me caring about then it is not worth you caring about. If I’m not allowed to be bothered by not having it then you are not allowed to be bothers by them giving it to me. Can we both agree that whether it has mechanical value or not it DOES have a subjective value to players who want it, and can therefore be discussed as to whether the methods of obtaining it are reasonable for those players?
I thought you just said that these rewards should take 2-3 times as long to earn. Contradicting yourself so soon is not exactly a master stroke.
Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that as a maximum, “within” 2-3 times as long, no more. If it is even, that may be appropriate too, depends on the content. I just mean that it should not be a preposterously larger amount of time.
If you want to boost WvW participation overnight, start a new WvW season and bring back the heroes/mistbound weapons without EotM progression.
I don’t want to boost WvW participation. I don’t think ANet should either. I think that all anyone should want is that anyone who wants to WvW should be able to do so without feeling that they are missing out on rewards they could be earning elsewhere. Any players that love WvW and want nothing more than WvWing should be able to do so. Any players who do not enjoy WvW should have absolutely no reason to be there.
There is. For the legendary we’re talking about. The Ascension. Y’know, that PvP reward. It has a set of PvP achievements which you have to complete, two of the MF components require league tickets, there’s a reward track with a component you need in it, you can get Mystic Clovers from reward tracks…
You missed the point. There is a PvP track to earning the Ascension. There is no PvE track to earning it. There is a PvE track to earning the Nevermore staff. There is no PvP track to earning it. The Ascension wings is NOT the Nevermore staff. A player might want the Nevermore staff and be not even a bit happier if you handed him the Ascension wings for free, or vice versa.
You cannot say “you get X, I get Y, I have determined that these two things are of equivalent value, so you should be happy with what you get.” It’s all subjective, people want what they want, and don’t want what they don’t want, and nobody else is capable of judging what they should be satisfied with.
Obviously the only current method of earning the Ascension is via PvP, but there’s no reason for that to be the case other than that ANet decided it should be so. They could as easily change their course on it, and allow you to ALSO earn the components by completing collections in the open world, like the legendary weapons, while also allowing you to earn Legendary weapons via PvP.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Just to avoid misunderstanding, if I do not quote a portion, it is out of brevity, not lack of attention. Rest assured that I read it and that my comments are reflective of its entire contents.
Then why was your response addressing an entirely separate thing?
No, it’s a shared responsibility with the game’s developers, who both chose to make the shiny and lock it behind specific content. If someone places a mousetrap, and puts cheese on it, they can’t absolve themselves of any responsibility if a mouse’s neck gets broken in the process.
No, they can’t. In fact, that’s the exact intent of a mousetrap.
If your metaphor bears through, then the exact intent of The Ascension is to have players who wouldn’t otherwise touch sPvP enter the mode and try to grind their way to it. If that is the case, then petitioning ANet to change it because it’s ‘not fun’ would be about as effective as a mouse petitioning its ‘landlord’ to not place mousetraps.
If you think this is the case, you are acting irrationally. Your best course of action is to avoid the mousetrap.
Can I take your devolution into ad hominem attacks as a sign that you concede the primary topic of discussion already?
No, it’s a genuine thing. Adding low-skill players into the ladders provides better calibration to the MMR and helps to ensure that each division has an appropriate increase in difficulty.
The ad hominem attacks are just for fun.
I said asymmetrically balance the methods as in, “if you want Skin A, then you can pursue it via paths X, Y, or Z, whichever you enjoy, and some will take slightly more work than others, but they’ll all get you there eventually.”
This bares no relation to having “Skins A, B, and C, which can ONLY be earned via paths X, Y, and Z respectively, and no path could ever lead to the other two rewards.” This is impossible to balance because it’s entirely subjective. If you like skin B then you MUST do path Y, whether you enjoy it or not, which results in a guaranteed negative experience for that player (either he pursues path Y, which is negative, or he fails to achieve skin B, which is negative, there is no path to a positive outcome).
Define positive outcome.
No, that’s called a strawman argument and I will not entertain it. Do better, get good.
Taking your logic to its extremes is not a strawman. It is intellectual rigor.
Why should I not be rewarded for cybering in Salma District if “fun should be rewarded”?
If it is not worth me caring about then it is not worth you caring about.
You seem to be imposing your value system on mine.
If I’m not allowed to be bothered by not having it then you are not allowed to be bothers by them giving it to me.
You’re allowed to be bothered by whatever you like. That doesn’t mean your arguments have merit.
Can we both agree that whether it has mechanical value or not it DOES have a subjective value to players who want it, and can therefore be discussed as to whether the methods of obtaining it are reasonable for those players?
No, we can’t. Mechanical value is an important component of MMO rewards- unless you’ve missed Ascended gear and materials being the bedrock of the modern GW2 economy (psst, it ain’t for the skins). I cannot accept the irrelevance of mechanical value as it is the closest thing to an objective value that the game has.
I’d go on about the economic effects of Vial of Salt, but I know that economies make you feel uncomfortable, so I’ll leave it be unless you insist.
Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that as a maximum, “within” 2-3 times as long, no more. If it is even, that may be appropriate too, depends on the content. I just mean that it should not be a preposterously larger amount of time.
But what is preposterous is subjective. You may believe an item tuned for 1:1 progress may be correct, but I may believe that is preposterous, and you may believe that the 1:3 value that I would suggest would be preposterous.
Unless this only works downwards, in which case, hooray race to the bottom.
I don’t want to boost WvW participation. I don’t think ANet should either. I think that all anyone should want is that anyone who wants to WvW should be able to do so without feeling that they are missing out on rewards they could be earning elsewhere. Any players that love WvW and want nothing more than WvWing should be able to do so. Any players who do not enjoy WvW should have absolutely no reason to be there.
Sure, that’d be great, but again; pixie dreams and sunshine.
But as a player who enjoys sPvP, PvE, WvW and cybering in Salma District equally, why would I ever go to WvW without WvW exclusive rewards when two of them provide better rewards on a monetary level in a game with such an important economy?
You missed the point. There is a PvP track to earning the Ascension. There is no PvE track to earning it. There is a PvE track to earning the Nevermore staff. There is no PvP track to earning it. The Ascension wings is NOT the Nevermore staff. A player might want the Nevermore staff and be not even a bit happier if you handed him the Ascension wings for free, or vice versa.
Yes, I am aware. I am not sure if I have covered this or not, but I am not a proponent of giving people things they want for no reason.
You cannot say “you get X, I get Y, I have determined that these two things are of equivalent value, so you should be happy with what you get.” It’s all subjective, people want what they want, and don’t want what they don’t want, and nobody else is capable of judging what they should be satisfied with.
You’re in wishy-washy subjective land where the points are made up and don’t matter.
Obviously the only current method of earning the Ascension is via PvP, but there’s no reason for that to be the case other than that ANet decided it should be so. They could as easily change their course on it, and allow you to ALSO earn the components by completing collections in the open world, like the legendary weapons, while also allowing you to earn Legendary weapons via PvP.
I’ve detailed reasons for it. Unique rewards allow players who enjoy multiple avenues of play a reason to invest in one they might not otherwise play because of income generation. Rewards aimed at one demographic boost or renew participation in their field (I can detail why this is good a bit more, if you’d like). PvP exclusive rewards that PvEers might want help to variate MMR. It provides stabilizing or modifying elements for the economy while providing control for the impact (or even increasing it) by limiting the target.
Address these, please.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
The way leagues are atm, it’s impossible for a casual player like myself to get the legendary backpack. The problem lies in part IV of the " Year of the Ascension" line. The achievement “league elite” requires you to pass 4 league division thresholds. That would require you to pass ruby tier which is impossible as the league pvp exists right now, for an admitted casual player.
Well they are changing the matchmaking to be more fair and harder to abuse so we’ll see.
If your metaphor bears through, then the exact intent of The Ascension is to have players who wouldn’t otherwise touch sPvP enter the mode and try to grind their way to it.
And that is a BAD intent, that benefits no one in any lasting way. All it does is cause people who were already PvPing to PvP, and people who weren’t already PvPing to not enjoy themselves. That is not a positive thing that should be supported. That is degenerative gameplay.
Define positive outcome.
A positive outcome is where a player is happy about where he reached and how he got there. An outcome in which he is not happy with where he ended up, or remains unhappy with what he had to do to get there, is a negative outcome, because it results in unnecessary negative impressions of the product. In a positive outcome, the player achieves the thing he wanted to achieve, and enjoys the experience of getting there.
Taking your logic to its extremes is not a strawman.
That’s preettty much the definition of a straw man. No argument can be taken to its extremes and then hold up. All arguments have a breaking point, but the point is to take the argument only to the intended extreme, and no further. Every train has a terminus, taking the train beyond the terminus will cause it to derail, the lesson there is not “trains are a bad idea.”
Why should I not be rewarded for cybering in Salma District if “fun should be rewarded”?
If the majority of the game’s population would find that rewarding gameplay, then maybe it should be on the table, but I doubt it. I don’t think you can fairly reward every activity with every reward and still consider it a game, but I don’t think anyone is sincerely asking for that. You are the one that claims that PvP having Ascension is ok because PvE can earn Legendary weapons, so you are essentially placing those two items on equal footing, that one should be considered equivalent to the other. Well if you are willing to place them both on the same tier of challenge, then why can’t you then say that if they are equivalent, then why can you not exchange one for the other, and earn either through the same or similar process?
Your straw man involves substituting what currently requires a great deal of time and highly invested activity in the game, for something that has no real measurable investment. I’m not suggesting that. I am suggesting an equivalent level of investment in the gameplay, just through a different flavor of that gameplay. If you can figure out a way that players could chat in town and express a measurable level of investment in the game equal to earning a Legendary, then that might be worth pursuing, but I’m not seeing how.
Ohoni.6057:
If it is not worth me caring about then it is not worth you caring about.
You seem to be imposing your value system on mine.
Nope, just pointing out that you can’t have it both ways. Either rewards are important enough that someone is allowed to be genuinely bothered at not having one, or they are so unimportant that nobody can be genuinely bothered about them one way or the other. I don’t care which of those positions you choose, but you have to be consistent.
You’re allowed to be bothered by whatever you like. That doesn’t mean your arguments have merit.
We’re discussing a game, every issue boils down to how much it bothers people. There would be nothing wrong with the current PvP meta, if not for the fact that it bothers certain people that their characters do not perform as well as they might like.
But what is preposterous is subjective. You may believe an item tuned for 1:1 progress may be correct, but I may believe that is preposterous, and you may believe that the 1:3 value that I would suggest would be preposterous.
Again, nothing can be perfect, including the systems currently in place, or the ones before that, or the ones that will come next, but we cannot allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good. We aim for the best balance we can achieve, it’s guaranteed to not work for everyone any more than the current system does, but we try to make it as good as possible in the opinions of as many players as possible, and that’s all anyone can hope for.
But as a player who enjoys sPvP, PvE, WvW and cybering in Salma District equally, why would I ever go to WvW without WvW exclusive rewards when two of them provide better rewards on a monetary level in a game with such an important economy?
Variety. Assuming that even if WvW is lower than other activities, it should be so by only a very small amount, pennies on the dollar, as it were. If you genuinely enjoy WvW, then you should still feel interested in doing it, even if it is slightly less rewarding. Most of the people who play this game do things every day that are not the absolute most rewarding thing that they could be doing. It only becomes a problem when the difference is SO great that doing the thing you enjoy is a huge waste of time.
And again, they can have some asymmetry to it, so perhaps WvW isn’t the best source of gold, but it is the best source of some other material, so if you’d like to farm that material, earn a WvW-favoring reward, then WvW would be the best way of doing that, just never the only way. Make it so that a player chasing peak efficiency would still have reason to dabble in all game modes to get all the things, but a player who genuinely dislikes a certain mode would still have the option of avoiding the mode he doesn’t like, trading a little extra work for a little more fun.
Yes, I am aware. I am not sure if I have covered this or not, but I am not a proponent of giving people things they want for no reason.
It’s not for no reason, it’s because it would make them happy. Making players happy is the only reason to give them anything.
You’re in wishy-washy subjective land where the points are made up and don’t matter.
AKA “Life, the Universe, and Everything.”
I’ve detailed reasons for it. Unique rewards allow players who enjoy multiple avenues of play a reason to invest in one they might not otherwise play because of income generation. Rewards aimed at one demographic boost or renew participation in their field (I can detail why this is good a bit more, if you’d like). PvP exclusive rewards that PvEers might want help to variate MMR. It provides stabilizing or modifying elements for the economy while providing control for the impact (or even increasing it) by limiting the target.
Convincing non-PvPers to PvP purely to act as training dummies for experienced PvPers is degenerative gameplay. It makes more players unhappy than it makes happy. You don’t need non-PvPers in the MMR system, just calibrate PvPers against other PvPers. Again, it’s fair to give players incentive to TRY the system from time to time, maybe require players to pass at least portions of the “Path to Ascension Part 1” achievement, so that they give PvP a solid try, but then cut them loose if they genuinely don’t enjoy it.
And sure, make PvP the fastest method of acquiring Ascension, the easiest if you have any interest in PvP, but have other options available for everyone else, so that any player who cares even slightly about PvP will say “I like PvP, this is the easiest way to get Ascension, I will PvP until I get it,” while still allowing others to say “I hate PvP, I’d rather be doing something else, and so I will, but will still be able to eventually earn Ascension via this route.”
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The way leagues are atm, it’s impossible for a casual player like myself to get the legendary backpack. The problem lies in part IV of the " Year of the Ascension" line. The achievement “league elite” requires you to pass 4 league division thresholds. That would require you to pass ruby tier which is impossible as the league pvp exists right now, for an admitted casual player.
My favored possible solution would be to remove tier loss until legendary, or diamond. That would allow most players to acquire the backpack eventually. And the announcement post for the league seasons and the legendary backpack outright promised that anyone could eventually earn the back piece.
Or you could progressively lower the requirements each new season. As it is right now, a casual cannot pass ruby tier without someone to carry them, or cheating the heavily flawed mmr system.
You got it wrong and as it looks you are not only one. In total for all 4 achieves for legendary back you need cross 10 division tresholds in total (so not 4 in one season) and you have 4 seasons for that. Thats mean you need only get twice to ruby and twice to saphire in total. Just get there not finish division. Also you will have more than enough tokens for all you need.
Tekkit Mojo – Engineer
Tekkit’s Workshop
Tekkit’s Workshop
I think its pretty clear Ohoni has some kind of mental illness
He preaches that players shouldn’t be forced to play a part of the game they dont like, yet CONSTANTLY is subjecting himself to playing game modes he doesnt like for a completely unnecessary cosmetic item that not having will in no way impede upon his game play
If not having that shiny skin in a video game is putting you through so much mental stress that you are forcing yourself to do things you hate and wont accept forgoing the skin as an option then you have some serious mental health issues and should quit playing this game and get some perspective on how rediculous your behavior is
Year of Ascention Part IV: League Elite
Cross 4 league division thresholds during a PvP season.A season is only 8 weeks. Based on the wording set forth you need to do all 4 during a single active season. Which means…Amber to Diamond.
However, Hugh said that achievements don’t reset.
So…that clashes a bit with the wording for the achievement itself. So… we’ll see?
I’m only a sapphire currently, so I have League Recruit (cross 1 threshold) done, and have half of League Veteran (cross 2 thresholds) done. I probably won’t make it to ruby this season (just not enough play time). If I don’t, we’ll see if that progress carries forward or not. If it does, it makes League Elite a heck of a lot easier.
It is a bit vague, yeah, but I’m inclined to think that progress towards that actually carries across separate seasons, because the achievement doesn’t state that it all has to be done within a SINGLE season, unlike the Primordial Legend achievement.
Agreed. I assumed ‘one season’ given that the wording is “a” pvp season, and “a” is typically used during singular references in the English language. I do find it interesting that they did specify the wording for the one, and not the other. But, then again, not surprised, sometimes their wording is quirky.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
We aim for the best balance we can achieve, it’s guaranteed to not work for everyone any more than the current system does, but we try to make it as good as possible in the opinions of as many players as possible, and that’s all anyone can hope for.
Then where are the people who agree with you?
Surely if the number of people who disagree with you is greater than the number of people who agree, then you must be wrong, right?
So where are the people who agree with you? There are plenty who disagree. So the only rational conclusion to draw is that you are wrong, right?
AKA “Life, the Universe, and Everything.”
So basically there’s no rational argument at all because everything is subjective. This rabbithole, and its consequences, are yours.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
I thought all you need is Sapphire for three of the seasons, and then Ruby in the final due to the overlap of season achievements (wife and I are already half way through season 2 achievements).
Wife and I do about 3 games every weekday, usually splurge Friday night. Were both currently Sapphire. We could really get Ruby this season if we pushed harder, but we did not care enough.
I kinda figure this is pretty pvp casual, and as far as I can tell we are right on track for the Ascension.
The Wrecking Krewe[NYE] – [Maguuma] Arum Bloodclaw
I thought all you need is Sapphire for three of the seasons, and then Ruby in the final due to the overlap of season achievements (wife and I are already half way through season 2 achievements).
No, the season achievements allow you to overflow your progress, for lack of a better term.
I’m in Diamond and Part II, but the extra progress I’ve made has been added to Part III.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
I thought all you need is Sapphire for three of the seasons, and then Ruby in the final due to the overlap of season achievements (wife and I are already half way through season 2 achievements).
No, the season achievements allow you to overflow your progress, for lack of a better term.
I’m in Diamond and Part II, but the extra progress I’ve made has been added to Part III.
I think we said the same thing lol, I meant attain Saphire for season 1, attain saphire for season 2 etc. Then on the last season, attain Ruby.
The Wrecking Krewe[NYE] – [Maguuma] Arum Bloodclaw
I think we said the same thing lol, I meant attain Saphire for season 1, attain saphire for season 2 etc. Then on the last season, attain Ruby.
Oh, I thought you meant them in that specific order. You need to get 10 rankups in total though, and Sapphire is only 2 rankups. I’m not sure how many seasons they’re running; this’d work if they were running 5 but I think they’re running 4, in which case you’ll need 2 sapphires and 2 rubies.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
I think we said the same thing lol, I meant attain Saphire for season 1, attain saphire for season 2 etc. Then on the last season, attain Ruby.
Oh, I thought you meant them in that specific order. You need to get 10 rankups in total though, and Sapphire is only 2 rankups. I’m not sure how many seasons they’re running; this’d work if they were running 5 but I think they’re running 4, in which case you’ll need 2 sapphires and 2 rubies.
Aha! Good to know! Thanks for that!
The Wrecking Krewe[NYE] – [Maguuma] Arum Bloodclaw
Wait is this guy serious? Soo, Ohoni, would you agree with allowing a PvP track for a legendary weapon?
Wait is this guy serious? Soo, Ohoni, would you agree with allowing a PvP track for a legendary weapon?
Not a “PvP track” in the traditional sense, obviously, those are way too linear and simple to grind through, but a PvP “path,” sure. Something like the path to Ascension, a complex meta-achievement that would require you to do a bunch of very specific gameplay tasks that would take a long amount of time and effort, something reasonably on par with earning it via PvE, but sure, at the end of that process you should be able to get a Legendary weapon without ever having to leave the Mists (or at the very least, requiring only as much time doing PvE and WvW as a PvE player would have to spend in PvP and WvW).
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Surely if the number of people who disagree with you is greater than the number of people who agree, then you must be wrong, right?
Definitely true. Of course, “number of people who agree with me in a thread on the game’s PvP forum” is in no way representative of “number of people who agree with me within the game’s population,” and I can’t think of any accurate way to measure the latter, so the point is moot. But I do accept your surrender on the main points of my position.
The small thing you’re forgetting is that even in your previous “league pvp made me hate pvp” thing where you argued the exact same thing as you’re currently insisting in this one, you couldn’t find one single ally in the forum community…
No one out of the couple hundreds of people whom at least viewed your post nor anyone out of the dozens who replied sided with you… But yeah that’s COMPLETELY irrelevant.
And you have the gal to call his post a “surrender” You just sound like a spoiled kid who didn’t get better than his brother/sister and decided to throw a self-entitled tantrum hidden behind fancy words.
Here’s the thing: What you want doesn’t necessarily equal what you are entitled to have.
Ascension is a PvP legendary showing your dedication to a game mode, just like the Fractal Legendary is one showing its dedication to fractals, and any other legendaries are a proof that people put hours into a long-term investment in order to flash their new shiny to people.
Making it accessible by any other means just entirely void it out. It’s like saying that I want all masteries in game without setting foot in any sort of PvE area…
But it’s not the case, and yes I’m a bit bitter because I like the idea of gliding forever and ever, but, at this moment, I can’t be bothered to do PvE, so I’ll suck it up and show my proud “4 mastery” when going into Lion’s Arch.
And before saying (possibly) that you have no problem giving access to masteries to PvP people, remember that it’s:
a) clearly not your shot to make
b) clearly not what most of the game population would want.
Just like your idea of giving Ascension to any kitten who decide to sulk because a legendary (an item that needs intense grinding) is locked behind a gamemode you do not like.
Just like your idea of meta-achievment for enabling PvP people to circumvent the map completion (or masteries) won’t sit well with anyone in PvE, which I entirely agree with.
At a point, people need to feel like their own game mode can bring something special, and it so happens that legendaries are that special thing people crave for and set their long term goal on.
But yeah, I’m making this and I already know it is pointless debate to make with you.
(edited by Pepsi.8907)
The small thing you’re forgetting is that even in your previous “league pvp made me hate pvp” thing where you argued the exact same thing as you’re currently insisting in this one, you couldn’t find one single ally in the forum community…
Actually there were a few, but they were significantly outnumbered. But again, “number of people who agree/disagree with me on a forum thread” is statistically irrelevant. There have been 121 replies to this thread, many of them by the same people. Even if every single one of those 121 posts were unique players in opposition to my position, that would still be less than 0.01% of he game’s total population. Maybe they would be representative, and for each person who disagreed with me, ten thousand others agreede with that person, or maybe they would be unrepresentative, and for each person who disagreed with me zero other people shared their opinion. It’s impossible to say.
That’s the entire point of scientific sampling. You cannot achieve broadly accurate results from a niche community, of from opt-in polling (such as people who choose to reply to a forum thread). Such data is completely irrelevant. The only way to accurately determine the mood of the community would be to randomly sample thousands of active players and gather their opinions on the matter, and I can’t think of any way that you or I could do that. No number of forum threads would ever be able to achieve useful statistical data.
Ascension is a PvP legendary showing your dedication to a game mode, just like the Fractal Legendary is one showing its dedication to fractals, and any other legendaries are a proof that people put hours into a long-term investment in order to flash their new shiny to people.
Yes, but as I said, I disagree with those things as well. I think that some people who show dedication to PvP don’t particularly care about the wings themselves, and might prefer the Fractal backpiece for their troubles. Some who prefer Fractals don’t care about the Fractal backpiece and would prefer the Ascension wings. Why can’t they each have the reward that they want, in exchange for showing dedication to the task that they enjoy?
Making it accessible by any other means just entirely void it out. It’s like saying that I want all masteries in game without setting foot in any sort of PvE area…
Not exactly. Masteries have no purpose outside of their intended area. If you don’t PvE in Magus Falls, there is no benefit of any kind to having HoT Masteries, so why would PvP need to provide them? The same is not true for cosmetic rewards, you can wield a Sunrise in PvP, so it has value to PvPers. You can wear the Ascension pack outside the mists, so it has value to PvEers. In fact, you can ONLY use the Ascension wings outside the mists, so technically it has MORE value to PvEers than it does for PvPers, and yet cannot be earned via PvE activities.
How does that make any sense?
I wouldn’t particularly mind if they could earn masteries somehow though, I just don’t see the point to it.
And before saying (possibly) that you have no problem giving access to masteries to PvP people, remember that it’s:
a) clearly not your shot to make
b) clearly not what most of the game population would want.
No, it’s ANet’s call to make, but it’s my call, as a consumer, to push for the changes that I think would improve the game, and ANet’s job, as the makers of a commercial product, to take in customer feedback and evaluate whether it would be a good change or not. Obviously if I am the only one who cares, they should not do what I suggest, but I do not believe for a second that this is the case, and as we’ve made clear, no amount of forum feedback could be “proof” on that topic one way or the other.
Just like your idea of meta-achievment for enabling PvP people to circumvent the map completion (or masteries) won’t sit well with anyone in PvE, which I entirely agree with.
I honestly don’t think PvEers would be that petty about it, so long as 1. The meta that PvPers would have to complete were of similar complexity and effort as Map Completion, so that it is not an “easy mode” alternative, and 2. at the same time various PvP-exclusive rewards are made more available to PvEers, so that they gain as they lose. So long as it’s viewed as a fair exchange, I think PvEers would be largely fine with it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
*Here’s the thing: What you want doesn’t necessarily equal what you are entitled to have.
Ascension is a PvP legendary showing your dedication to a game mode, just like the Fractal Legendary is one showing its dedication to fractals, and any other legendaries are a proof that people put hours into a long-term investment in order to flash their new shiny to people.
Making it accessible by any other means just entirely void it out. It’s like saying that I want all masteries in game without setting foot in any sort of PvE area… *
I have to agree here. If someone wants a prestige PvP item then the correct course of action is to get good at one’s favorite classes, work on their mechanical skills, in unranked if need be to avoid risking pips especially during prime hours, and find a team to maximize class coordination and keep out underperforming specs and classes.
to the OP: I know I am never going to get the legendary pvp backpiece, but i don’t think you should either, if you are a casual pvper playing casually.
The legendary backpack is the top reward pvp has to offer. It would be a bad joke if casual pvpers could get it.
It looks like ANET wants everyone to play PvP modes to obtain the new shinny. If that’s the goal, regardless of what everyone may think, ANET will keep this item available/achievable for everyone as long as everyone is ready to grind for it. The title seems to be the exclusive one as far as league is concerned.
“If there is anyone here whom I have not offended, I am sorry.”
Definitely true. Of course, “number of people who agree with me in a thread on the game’s PvP forum” is in no way representative of “number of people who agree with me within the game’s population,”
No, it’s actually hyper-representative. People who care about the game come onto the forums and post about it. Isn’t it curious that nobody who cares about the game agrees with you? Hm. What a conundrum.
and I can’t think of any accurate way to measure the latter, so the point is moot.
I wish elections worked this way. I’d win so easy. “I don’t actually have any votes but I’m sure everyone agrees with me!”
But I do accept your surrender on the main points of my position.
I didn’t respond to the rest of your points because you are in la-la land. I would be wasting my time.
Granted, I’m wasting my time with any response, because you won’t listen regardless.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
I have to agree here. If someone wants a prestige PvP item then the correct course of action is to get good at one’s favorite classes, work on their mechanical skills, in unranked if need be to avoid risking pips especially during prime hours, and find a team to maximize class coordination and keep out underperforming specs and classes.
Or, to push for a change to the systems to better reflect player interest. Getting better at PvP would not make me a happier person, so why would it be in my best interests to do so? If it would make you happy, then that’s great, do that, but your solution is not my solution.
No, it’s actually hyper-representative. People who care about the game come onto the forums and post about it. Isn’t it curious that nobody who cares about the game agrees with you? Hm. What a conundrum.
/sigh, again you completely misunderstand how “representation” works.
I wish elections worked this way. I’d win so easy. “I don’t actually have any votes but I’m sure everyone agrees with me!”
Yes, because the modern election systems are considered absolutely flawless. 8|
Granted, I’m wasting my time with any response, because you won’t listen regardless.
I listen, I just don’t agree, because you aren’t correct.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
/sigh, again you completely misunderstand how “representation” works.
I stand by my assertion. Why, if your ideas are so great, does nobody appear to agree with you?
Yes, because the modern election systems are considered absolutely flawless. 8|
You’re right. We must go to a future space democracy and win the space election.
I listen
Hah! Good one.
Oh, there’s more!
, I just don’t agree,
Well, that’s your subjective opinion, and you’re entitled to it.
because you aren’t correct.
If all of this is subjective then I cannot be incorrect because there is no incorrect answer.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
The mindblowing irony here is players stick around a game because they hear about a tough achievement they set out to accomplish: hone their skills, refine tactics, and obtain the reward but other players instead of meeting the content’s bar (giving us motivation to improve which is where much of the fun comes in) they want the bar lowered to meet their skill level.
Lots of skill based weapon and armor skins need to be in the game so other players think, “I want that!” and set out and put forth the effort to earn it.
lol, or just 5 man premade ‘skill’ farm stronghold
A warrior, a guardian, and an elementalist walk into an open field…
The Warrior turns to the guardian and says, “Did you hear something?”
Guardian replies, “No, but how’d the elementalist die?”
The Warrior turns to the guardian and says, “Did you hear something?”
Guardian replies, “No, but how’d the elementalist die?”
Just let this thread die. Arguing with this dude is pointless. Hes pretty much alone on this thread just like any other but “thounsand of players ingame will agree with him” yeah snd i know milions ingame that disagrees with him. Raids are be, cus he doesnt want to play em and still have access to leg armor, pvp is blah, fractals are meeh, everything is just… w/e. Gimme gimme gimme. Thats what really hides behind these posts.
Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.
If anyone had an opinion they feel is important enough to post, then they would.
That’s really silly.
This game has hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of players. Maybe a few thousand of them have ever posted here. Are you suggesting that this means that hundreds of thousands of people who play this game, that care enough to have bought HoT, somehow don’t have ANY strong opinions about the game one way or the other, just because they have not shared it here?
The average player has strong opinions, they just don’t all feel compelled to participate on the forums. Just because someone does not participate on the forums does not indicate that they would take anything you give them without caring. They care about things, they slow or stop their play based on various factors, and it’s important to ANet to figure out what those factors might be, even if the players in question do not actively express their reasons.
This in itself is statistically relevant, as you are only getting opinions from the public that care a great deal.
It’s also important to note that I’m only getting feedback from people reading the PvP section of the forum, a place mostly read by people who PvP, and therefore more likely to see no problem with having rewards exclusive to that game mode. You do understand the significant bias in that sample pool, right?
As for the back piece itself, no it should not be a track. What you described, a means of attaining it over a long period of time and work, that s exactly as it is now.
Yes, and I’m not suggesting that they remove the “attaining it over a long period of time and work,” part of it. I’m suggesting that they remove the “ONLY in PvP” part of it, so that players can apply that long period of time and work" to other aspects of the game if they prefer.
As it is, the backpiece is not even that hard to attain as long as you put some work into it.
It requires a minimum of 30 hours of playing PvP, more if every round lasts the full 15 minutes, more if you have any queuing time, more if you actually lose any of those matches. This may not be a huge investment of time if you are an active PvPer who would intend to play an hour or more of PvP anyway, in fact, it’s a super-casual achievement if you’re an active PvPer, but for a non-PvP it’s a torturous slog through content that you would really rather not be doing at all.
This is why the conditions should be opened up to other forms of content. Same effort, different flavor.
If you play Ranked, you will learn how to play well, and over the thirty or so days, it could be very simple to attain the ranks you need.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with “getting good.” I started out pretty good, I’m even better now. I’m not saying I’m anywhere near pro-league or anything, but I’m an asset to any team I’ve been matched with so far, I won all four games I played today, and had around a 3:1 kill/death ratio for the night, maybe higher. That’s completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that it took around an hour, hour and a half to do that, time that I could have spent doing something I actually enjoyed, and why shouldn’t that be an option?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
As this thread has degenerated and is no longer constructive, we are closing it.