Guild Wars 2

As the title states I don’t think that celestial should exist, especially not in a gamemode that requires your team to split. Apart from being stupidly strong on classes that can make use of every single stat (ele, engi and ranger), giving enough sustain to bunker stuff with enough heals that scale somewhat well with healing power, enough damage to kill stuff with a few mightstacks, it makes rotating almost unnecessary.

A celestial class can do literally everything. They can defend points, they can engage points, they can teamfight, they can 1v1, they can 2v2. Even if they are in a matchup disadvantage which is already rare they can usually just keep things stale and just hold the point (neutral) like they would be a bunker while they win matchups where they are at an advantage pretty fast.

Basicly you can send a celestial class everywhere without really having to think about what it will do on that point and what the matchup will be. The patch wasn’t too long ago so people still more or less just play the comps they are used to but I’m pretty sure that sooner or later the meta will be like 4 celestial classes now that most of them can even deal with warrior which was like the only thing that could reliably kill d/d eles (I can already see people writing I ALWAYS WIN WIT MY SUPER HIPSTER BUILD CUZ I IZ JUST THAT GOOD) and one of the things that countered spirit rangers.

Maybe I’m just biased because I’m maining guard and guard would be more or less useless in a meta full of celestial because dps guard is at a huge disadvantage against sustained stuff like celes d/d ele, celes rifle engi and celes spirit ranger and bunker guard is really not needed because these kind of builds don’t need a dedicated supporter to support them, but I don’t think many people would enjoy a meta ruled by celestial classes.

Delete celestial. Nerf celestial. Anything. Please. :<

Random GIF to make the wall of text look better.

Yeh celestial should be rebalanced slightly. It won’t be though so whatever.

I would agree on this fully but the elementalist needs the appropriate buffs to prevent it from becoming unviable again if this were to happen.

P.S. texbi is strong dont buff engi

Keksmuffin.1450:

Apart from being stupidly strong on classes that can make use of every single stat (ele, engi and ranger),

I’m not so sure that that justifies a nerf. By that logic, berserkers should be nerfed because thieves can make use of every single stat.

I’m pretty sure that celestial on guardian can be pretty good. Guardians have both damage and team support, and celestial stats allow them to do both equally.

idk, on one hand celestial amulet makes pretty much everything viable, on the other it makes already viable builds a bit too much viable.
I mean staff eles finally have an amulet they can have fun with, d/d eles feel like they are back to their prime days, engis can finally move away from rabid, rangers don’t have to chose between sacrificing thoughness and sacrificing vitality, warriors are warriors.

Celestial amulet, powerful runes and powerful sigils enable every class to play basically every trait combination.
This is good, build diversity is always good.
However some classes gain a bit too much from it, they become a staple of every competitive team and this is bad.

I can’t see how to fix one problem without creating another.

P.S. celestial guard is a bad idea, stop bringing that up (lol).

kaikalii.4198:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Apart from being stupidly strong on classes that can make use of every single stat (ele, engi and ranger),

I’m not so sure that that justifies a nerf. By that logic, berserkers should be nerfed because thieves can make use of every single stat.

I’m pretty sure that celestial on guardian can be pretty good. Guardians have both damage and team support, and celestial stats allow them to do both equally.

Celestial has way more stats than other amulets so making use of every stat of celestial means way more than making use of every stat of berserker.

And I already tested celestial guard.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAR7dlsApcoVDxbI8DRRDBlZPuvN49hrPQCCAA-TJxHwADeCAa2fAwFBoYZAA

Something like this. The sustain is ok but the damage is terrible, doesn’t even come close to what ele or engi can do with it because your autos hit for pretty much nothing and they are a big part of your damage on zerker specs.

Are you sure might stacking isn’t the real problem?

kaikalii.4198:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Apart from being stupidly strong on classes that can make use of every single stat (ele, engi and ranger),

I’m not so sure that that justifies a nerf. By that logic, berserkers should be nerfed because thieves can make use of every single stat.

I’m pretty sure that celestial on guardian can be pretty good. Guardians have both damage and team support, and celestial stats allow them to do both equally.

Cele and Guard might seem like a prefect combination, however it’s actually quite underwhelming. This is due to the way the traits are set up and how the class plays.

kaikalii.4198:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Apart from being stupidly strong on classes that can make use of every single stat (ele, engi and ranger),

I’m not so sure that that justifies a nerf. By that logic, berserkers should be nerfed because thieves can make use of every single stat.

I’m pretty sure that celestial on guardian can be pretty good. Guardians have both damage and team support, and celestial stats allow them to do both equally.

zerker amulet doesn’t make EVERY aspect of the class amazing… zerker amulet contributes little to survivality and 0 to condi dmg while celestial contrubutes to everything

i support this thread, celestial needs to go
and/or max amount of might stacks needs to be lowered in pvp

i never understood the logic of gw2 where some classes can have everything w/o any trade off and other have to sacrifice everything for 1 aspect (dmg or survival or mobility)

celestial amulet is balanced, leave it alone.
if you let them stack might, then it is your problem.
you need to look at boon removal options.

guardians can remove might boon if traited.

Does nobody remember ~1 yr ago when the common forum complaint was “everyone is either burst or bunker”? It’s an awesome situation where it either takes forever to score a kill, or it takes < 1 sec. I’d take celestial over that.

That said, it’s fine to tune numbers if needed. Last year, nobody ran celestial. If now nobody runs it, then yes, you could reduce it. I really think it’s the might stacking that puts this over the top though. Notice that it’s classes that can weapon swap for might most efficiently that are really strong here?

Another one of those…..look at your boon removal options and the specs that have plenty of it…ask your self do they struggle as much as me?

for the exact reasons bullet punch mentioned, sharks with lazers is having serious problems keeping our comp (basically TCG comp). basically, bunker guard, shatter mesmer, and s/d thief are all useless atm. since s/d thief was able to consistantly beat many cele builds, it was useful before; but atm its useless post patch. shatter mesmer also ate a big nerf with the mirror blade stealth nerf (surprisingly nobody is talking about this, but mirror blade doesnt bounce off the clone it creates resulting in a 3-4k dmg nerf). because of this bunker guard is useless since its only purpose was to stand on point while squishies kited.
so basically we’re disbanding post ToG now and everyones rerolling to engis and eles.

its not celestial its might stacks that are broken.
when you invest heavy on def and still hit like a zerk something is wrong.
prebuff celestial was bad and no one used it,now its fine and opens a lot of builds to be played with i don`t want to see it nerf.
if they cap blast might stacks in pvp to be 10s and not 20s all will be fine.
to have all ppl on a point team fight have 20-25 stacks with a tanky build isnt working out to be a lot of fun imo.
boon strip makes a dent in it but the way you can restack them is faster then you can strip by a good margin.

I agree that might stacking is the problem. Get any 2 of engi, warrior, or ele on the same point and they can blast each other’s fire fields and get to 25 might stacks in seconds. Get 3 and they’ll do it instantly. That#s 875 power AND 875 condition damage extra they’re getting, it basically TRIPLES the values the celestial amulet gives them!

Very true,

Celestial gives 3066 stats
Normal amulets give 2232 stats

That is about 37% more stats…
Take a whole team of celestials and your team is 37% stronger than the enemy team?
(just in stats)

But god that looks awe full… why is that in the game again?

That’s not really the way it works though because not all classes make equal use of all the stats. Very few professions have decent physical damage scaling AND conditions on the same weapon (warrior’s longbow and sword, most elementalist weapons, some of the engi kits, and that’s it), and few can make as good and constant use of the extra healing power as elementalist and warrior (case in point: necromancer, who can’t get healed at all in death shroud). Scaling in this game might be linear, but it’s not the same for most skills.

Celestial itself is not overpowered. It’s merely might stacking. Might stacks are insanely strong due to the buff on both power and condition damage. With the strength runes and might stacking sigils, celestial become both deadly and very sustainable. That’s where the problem lies. Remove might stacks, and celestial is exactly what it should be. Namely, a jack of all trades and master of none.

If we want a solution, do something about might stacks/stacking.

I think most people don’t get my problem. My problem is not that these builds are strong or overpowered or whatever. My problem is that celestial exists and allows certain classes which can make use of every stat celestial has to play any role. They can engage, defend, duel and teamfight which makes them surperior over dedicated supporter or zerker builds because these usually only do one of these.

My problem is that you can basicly play 5 celestial classes and it will work. This makes dedicated supporters like bunker guards or zerkers like thieves more or less useless because they aren’t needed in these kind of comps. Cheese Mode already showed us that it is possible and I really think it will become the meta sooner or later. But of course people have to jump on that bandwagon, tell me that the problem is mightstacking and not celestial without actually reading and understanding the issue.

The sad part is that anet will probably wait months for the “meta to settle” and then wait some more months until they do anything about it. Expect a celestial nerf in a year or so.

I agree with this Celestial ammy is too strong the way it is right now lol

Keksmuffin.1450:

I think most people don’t get my problem. My problem is not that these builds are strong or overpowered or whatever. My problem is that celestial exists and allows certain classes which can make use of every stat celestial has to play any role. They can engage, defend, duel and teamfight which makes them surperior over dedicated supporter or zerker builds because these usually only do one of these.

My problem is that you can basicly play 5 celestial classes and it will work. This makes dedicated supporters like bunker guards or zerkers like thieves more or less useless because they aren’t needed in these kind of comps. Cheese Mode already showed us that it is possible and I really think it will become the meta sooner or later. But of course people have to jump on that bandwagon, tell me that the problem is mightstacking and not celestial without actually reading and understanding the issue.

The sad part is that anet will probably wait months for the “meta to settle” and then wait some more months until they do anything about it. Expect a celestial nerf in a year or so.

You hit the nail on the head. I would expect a celestial nerf around March 2015 at the earliest. But more likely mid-to-late 2015

The next balance patch will come around then judging from their twice a year balance patch pattern.

Cele amy has created a weird “skirmishing/kitten” meta that atm, is better than traditional meta comps, and by a great margin. Also Eles, and Engis will not be “nerfed” with a cele touch up, sure, it will bring some of your stats down, but with the changes made to the actual mechanics of the ele/engi, you guys will be fine.

Sry for the bad english, writing this late at night

~Ferox

Celestial is fine. Might stacking, particularly from Sigil of Battle, is the problem. Drop Sigil of Battle to 2 stacks or reduce its duration and you’ve cut out at least 100 power and condition damage from these builds.

Further, the inability to customize stats properly hurts professions that can’t do the might stacking + celestial combo. They either explode when touched or can’t put out enough damage.

(A) Certain classes can take just as much advantage of a stat line as an Elementalist could take advantage of Celestial

(B) Stop trying to DPS as a Guardian, it has no proper CC to ensure the DPS spike lands

© Pure Celestial meta will not happen because most builds are terrible while using it

(D) Learn and well understand how rock/paper/scissoring works in Guild Wars 2
Because right now, everything is actually quite balanced
Consider that the build you use happens to be countered by Celestial characters
And that this is not true for other people using other builds

Trevor Boyer.6524:

(B) Stop trying to DPS as a Guardian, it has no proper CC to ensure the DPS spike lands

Yes, that surely is a great fix – stop playing what can be viable, there is no need to try to improve it at all since it sucks anyway…
With this kind of attitude we would’ve never seen shifts in power ever, resulting in this game being even more of the same than it is now… Quite honestly, more people need to play it so more people can help to improve it – only then will we create new oppertunities for new builds and roles to become part of the “meta” game…

On topic now; what is actually the biggest culprit for Celestial?
I see many here pointing out mightstacks, but is this really true in reality? Or is it a mix between the stacking of might and having enough self-sustain to run it?

For example, Necromancer’s have some ways of getting might, and can get up to ~15 stacks rather quickly, but you would not see them running (and dominating) with Celestial – why is this? Is it because their builds do not lend for it? Or is it because unlike the other classes which profit from Celestial have great ways and mean of self-sustain?

It is an extremely frustrating amulet, the “Jack of all Trades” aspect is tuned too highly – they are too close to being full condi/full tank/full zerk spike. They need to cut away at how well they fill all those roles at the same time. “Master of None” needs to be a real thought in mind when creating such an amulet and I feel they may have focused too much on making a Jack.
Unfortunately I think because Might Runes, Fire+Air, Celest are all relatively new additions to the game it will be a while before ANet deal with them. I think though we would all rather see nerfs to these extras than nerf to our classes which use them – so even if you’re a Celest LBow War you SHOULD be speaking out against them.
In short I agree with Bullet on both fronts – Celest OP and its here for a while :*(

GoogleBrandon.5073:

On topic now; what is actually the biggest culprit for Celestial?
I see many here pointing out mightstacks, but is this really true in reality? Or is it a mix between the stacking of might and having enough self-sustain to run it?

For example, Necromancer’s have some ways of getting might, and can get up to ~15 stacks rather quickly, but you would not see them running (and dominating) with Celestial – why is this? Is it because their builds do not lend for it? Or is it because unlike the other classes which profit from Celestial have great ways and mean of self-sustain?

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Heavy might stacking classes like Warriors and Elementalists have innate fire fields and blast finishers! A Necromancer has to sacrifice a utility for many might stacks!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Heavy might stacking classes like Warriors and Elementalists have innate fire fields and blast finishers! A Necromancer has to sacrifice a utility for many might stacks!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Frankly, seeing as how important most utility skills are for Necromancer’s I am inclined to agree…

But that, funny enough, holds no ground for Engineer – yes, they can blast their firefields, but this is at the cost of BoB, Magnetic Shield, or blowing up a turret – all of these are rather clunky and requires a form of positioning a Warrior and Elementalist doesn’t need to cope with…
Sure Sigil of Battle synergizes rather well, but a Celestial Engineer, or at least from my experience, has a much harder time getting a good amount of might stacks as to compared to Warrior’s or Elementalists… Yet, the Engineer can very well run Celestial with little problems

Same with Ranger, I started playing a Celestial Axe build recently, but if you do not bring a warhorn, you have little ways to blast your firefields (though Fire Shield also works), this means if you run Axe, you “have to” autoattack to even remotely get a reasonable amount of stacks, not something you want to do unless the enemy is a Mesmer… The same deal is with this class though, I have outpeformed Warriors and Elementalists respectively – now this also might be due to the enemy not knowing how to “fight” me properly since Rangers were so rare, but I still find it odd considering I have not even played over 20 matches with my Ranger, and most of my weapon and combat knowledge are from PvE and experiences on other classes respectively…

All of these classes have something in common though, all of them either have a healing skill tied to combat, or amazing Regen uptime, while some classes lack this completely…

I am just thinking out loud though, I have by no means the answer, but could the issue not be both rather than just one?

Might stacking is what makes celestial op and makes bunkerish specs deal way too much dmg (Both cond and direct) with no real drawback, celestial would be fine without nonsense stacks of permamight…if we hadn’t migh stacking and intelligence sigils you won’t see dat many 3k armor specs dishing out 5-6k crits all over the place. Bunker specs being able to kill stuff is the main problem in this pvp (And always had been)..bunkers should be like guardian…can stay alive but still can’t decap (Maybe with hammer…but you’re gonna die way faster then) and for sure can’t kill kitten…now we have wars, eles and engis being as tanky as bunker guards (Actually they can probably survive MORE than a guardian when it comes to just staying up) while still being able to kill….and not even slowly (I can tryshot a glass cannon like mesmer or thief with soldier hambow and even if i don’t play ele and engi i think it would be pretty much the same once you’re up to 20+ might on both of them too…while still running around with 24k hp and 3k armor on hambow, indecent buffs like permaregen, protection and permavigor on d/d eles and insane amount of blocks, cc and condispam on engi)…bunkers that can still fight almost like a dps specs (Or full condition specs) are the real kitten in this pvp, and this is way more evident just looking at CM comp

lol its not celestial lol
its the kitten that we have an amulett for all stats..
give us rings, earrings, amulett … ( the same as in pve ) and u can delete celstial.

in pve i dont use celstial because i can mix the stats…
…
…

Keksmuffin.1450:

I think most people don’t get my problem. My problem is not that these builds are strong or overpowered or whatever. My problem is that celestial exists and allows certain classes which can make use of every stat celestial has to play any role. They can engage, defend, duel and teamfight which makes them surperior over dedicated supporter or zerker builds because these usually only do one of these..

take away the might stacks and you still get jack of all trades which is what celestial exists for but they will be master of none and a full celestial team will kill at most a critter the entire game.
take on a challenge m8 go play d/d ele with celestial but dont use sigil of battle/intellect- strength/fire ect runes-and dont blast any fire field just do your best to avoid might at all cost and tell me if you still think celestial is all what you make it out to be.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

On topic now; what is actually the biggest culprit for Celestial?
I see many here pointing out mightstacks, but is this really true in reality? Or is it a mix between the stacking of might and having enough self-sustain to run it?

Might stacking is what’s breaking the balance. Normally power and condition damage levels with the celestial amulet are too low to do significant damage. When you can maintain 15+ stacks of might easily, you now have close to the same power as someone with a beserker amulet and almost as much condition damage as someone with rabid.

Elementalist, Engineer, and Warrior are the main offenders for a number of reasons:
1. These professions also weapon swap (or equivalent) often, so they cant take the most advantage of Sigil of Battle. Other professions tend toward weapon swapping based on situation, not on cooldown, so Sigil of Battle has less effect.
2. These professions have decent access to the Fury boon to make up for less precision when compared to Berserker. Warriors get it from their elite signet, elementalists on attunement swap, and engineers get it from a minor trait in Alchemy when they hit 75% HP.
3. The defensive stats on celestial also extend the already strong defenses of elementalist and warrior. For elementalist in particular with its low base HP, celestial is the only amulet that address that issue sufficiently while still giving them toughness, but not overdoing it.
4. These professions all apply burning often for significant durations. Sigil of Doom, which goes great with their weapon swapping, gives them poison (Engineer has it through grenades and elixir gun). Axebow warrior has torment and engineer has bleeding and often confusion. So they benefit significantly from having high condition damage from celestial + might stacking.

Play any of these without sigil of battle and you’ll see a big difference in damage output.

I do have to admit after watching the finals for the Tournament of Legends 2 it seemed to me that the Guardian was heading the way of the dinosaur with respect to PvP. However I just attributed that more to ArenaNet’s very narrow vision for what the profession is and can be as opposed to the existence of the celestial amulet.

I do know it is my main reason for wanting to re-roll my profession as it seems silly to play one that has to choose whether to be a damage dealer or a pure support when there are other more viable options with other professions that let you have your cake and eat it, too.

Thanks.

i don’t think cele has to go, i just think the other amulets need a serious stat boost to match cele total stat points

nothing more to say, delete!

Still from what I have seen lot of teams/players still using other ammy.

Celestial itself is fine. The problem is the massive power-creep we got from runes and 2x sigils (or 4x sigils for warrior). Nerf strength runes and most sigils (battle especially) and celestial now has sub-par damage to go with its high survivability. Sure, classes will still be able to might-stack some, so celestial might-stacking builds will exist, but they won’t be absolute best.

Celestial and mightstacking are two different problems. The standard celes spirit ranger barely has any might and celes rifle engi has 9 or 12 at best.

Every class on every amulet can stack might with battle sigil+strength runes. With 25 mightstacks even clerics ele can kill stuff. That might be silly and should get changed but it is pretty much limited to war and ele as these are the only classes that can get to 25 stacks on their own on a viable build.

This is not what I’m talking about in my post so please stop bringing up this stupid “Celestial is fine, mightstacking is the problem”. They are two different problems and they will not gonna get solved by just nerfing mightstacking.

Personally I’d say Celestial ’s survivability states is a problem, burning base damage too high is a problem and fire fields should have a cap on the number of effective blast finishers casted on them.

Though others might have better opinions on the matter than I do but these are the things that personally sting the most about cele amulet and the classes that use it effectively….they could eat a burst live through it and slowly but surely build up enough damage with good sustain to eventually kill or stale for back up.
well at least its less frustrating than fighting settler shout warriors or regen rangers that are almost immortal

Keksmuffin.1450:

Celestial and mightstacking are two different problems. The standard celes spirit ranger barely has any might and celes rifle engi has 9 or 12 at best.

Every class on every amulet can stack might with battle sigil+strength runes. With 25 mightstacks even clerics ele can kill stuff. That might be silly and should get changed but it is pretty much limited to war and ele as these are the only classes that can get to 25 stacks on their own on a viable build.

This is not what I’m talking about in my post so please stop bringing up this stupid “Celestial is fine, mightstacking is the problem”. They are two different problems and they will not gonna get solved by just nerfing mightstacking.

Though a celestial build that doesn’t stack any might is quite bad, thats the reason why people keep on bringing it up.

vincecontix.1264:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Celestial and mightstacking are two different problems. The standard celes spirit ranger barely has any might and celes rifle engi has 9 or 12 at best.

Every class on every amulet can stack might with battle sigil+strength runes. With 25 mightstacks even clerics ele can kill stuff. That might be silly and should get changed but it is pretty much limited to war and ele as these are the only classes that can get to 25 stacks on their own on a viable build.

This is not what I’m talking about in my post so please stop bringing up this stupid “Celestial is fine, mightstacking is the problem”. They are two different problems and they will not gonna get solved by just nerfing mightstacking.

Though a celestial build that doesn’t stack any might is quite bad, thats the reason why people keep on bringing it up.

Meh even if mightstacking would be nerfed heavily, you only need like ~10 stacks to get decent power and stupidly high burning ticks on most celestial builds. But that is still not my point.

My point is that celestial specs have more stats than specs that focus on one role (dedicated support/dps) while being able to play both roles which makes it possible to play with 5 celestial classes which will sooner or later push a lot of classes that can’t go the celestial way out of the meta.

not enough boon removal, without might celestial wouldnt be a problem.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Brigg.6189:

Are you sure might stacking isn’t the real problem?

brigg is right. without high might stacks celestial build would be fine. the might meta is the real problem here, that or there arent enough boon removal skills.

It’s rather no compatible boon removal skill with your spec and the amount of people willing to use them. No one builds and says I have to find a way to protect my self from conditions,cc,range,mobility and boons at the same time even if they did they did they don’t know what they will encounter.

This way always prevent 1v1 and attempts of it(duels) for an opposite player not to have a 1 or more advantages even if you consider his build cheese or the fact you feel he used skills, traits….that YOU FEEL he shouldn’t use.

yes, true -shrug-. i feel like something has to be done about this ridiculous celestial thing thats going on so just throwing ideas out there.

If celestiat +might stacking is the problem..Then why direct the nerfs to might stacking which affects everything and everywhere ?If you want to reduce the damage output of this combination wouldnt it make more sense ..to actually aim to reduce the damage output of THAT combination and NOT the damage output of every combination of a class balanced so far around high might stacking access??
It just seems easier and safer to touch the amulet..Afterall celestial is the only part of those builds that is actually exclusive only to those builds

No, the route of the problem has to do with two classes having almost 80% additional base health over thief ele and guard. The idea that aegis once per 50 seconds makes up for the loss is insane and will remain a primary reason the Guardian doesn’t get played as much. Group effects are also difficult to value in a gamestyle where your team of five is attempting to control 3 simultanious points with extra objectives. To make up for that all other classes are going to need massive def./offense skills as compared to warrior or necro. This is in no way the case.
Some classes utilize all traits while others primarily deal physical or condi. So for celestial build all skills hit with slight boost, but for focused classes 80/90% of skills hit for massive bonuses. In terms of healing power the gains are significantly different for each healing skill making it difficult to value and not overly significant to offset other factors. Additionally healing in no way compensates for bonus health pool at the base of the issue. Extra toughness is a ridiculous argument for removing celestial as it has diminishing returns and you can go up against a class with 80% bonus health and max base toughness among classes. It’s not as valuable to tack toughness on to the heavies because they already have it….
The classes that benefit from the celestial are the ones that hurt from not being able to focus on a damage type. Sorry a warrior with 80% bonus starting life heavy armor and great healing signet can’t just blast auto attack to win. No one would play the game if they had to work crazy hard paying attention to a million details to get destroyed by someone pressing 1 button. Every class should have a high skill option with high reward. Celestial is in no way the problem; massive underlying imbalances make it impossible to balance.

When teams have to run >= 3 players with cele amulet there is a serious problem.

I can agree with this issue, there’s 3-4 people on my team that run cele…

(B) Stop trying to DPS as a Guardian, it has no proper CC to ensure the DPS spike lands

Heh… You should be a game designer.

It’d be really cool if arena-net would actually listen to posts like this. Poor balance patches are the reason this game is struggling to do as well as it could be.