Guild Wars 2

Let’s face it: the current state of pvp is quite bad. In this topic, I will present my thoughts on why it is in such a bad place, and how to fix it. Of course, some propositions could be wrong and there might be other concerns not addressed, but this is a global idea to hopefully help developers improving their game.

Before we start, I have to say I think we need more than few fixes, and the global gameplay needs a big overhaul that would be time-consuming, but would also lead toward a healthier game.

So I am going to discuss the following issues: AOEs, CCs, blocks and invulnerabilities, conditions.

- AOEs are far too numerous, too big, too powerful and kill pvp, especially as the objective is to control points on the map. Overlapping DH’s traps, chrono’s wells, ele’s elemental zones, war/zerker burning zones, rev or engi’s AOEs, they are so numerous it becomes a giant fest where people walking into it instantly die. By the way, most of the elite specializations brought many very powerful AOEs compared to what was previously accessible to core specs.
—> AOE spam, visual overload, too high damage distribution.

- CCs became too numerous, too accessible and too frequent.
Some professions and capacities are able to chain CC at such a frequency that even break-stuns can seem useless. In 1v1 fights, we’ll be able to try to dodge or break out of stun on key CCs, but in teamfights where it is a real zerg of effects and where every single profession can CC multiple times, sometimes in AOE, it becomes far too complicated. Triple AOE CC from chrono’s elite well, AOE CC from DH’s elite trap which ignores every stun-break apart from blinks, warrior’s access to a CC every 5 seconds with a single skill in berzerker mode, revenant staff ability which knockbacks every target on its way, etc…
—> CC spam without trying to use them at the right time, lowering significantly the skillcap.

- Blocks and invulnerabilities became too numerous, too accessible and too frequent.
Same statement as CCs, blocks and invulnerabilities (sometimes passive effects !) are way too numerous. How is it even possible that a warrior (yeah, you again, sorry) can block more than 50% of the time, while still being able to be immune to damage and condis via skills or talents, and have 2 dodges in addition ? Waaaay too easy. Anyway, every class got means to block with elite specs.
—> Blocks and invulnerabilities too easy without a real counterplay, lowering the skillcap.

- Conditions have gone uncontrollable !
This is really a huge nonsense. To me, conditions are supposed to be “dots”, so damage over time. But right now, they have a bigger burst than berzerker glasscanons ! WTF seriously ?… This is sad. Like it’s been said many times, direct damage specs need 3 stats to be effective (power, precision, ferocity), whereas condi specs only need one (condi power, arguably 2 with condi duration). As a consequence, those are able to strengthen with vitality, toughness or something else, even though they are more bursty. This problem sometimes goes in pair with the AOE one (condi bombs) to inflict tons of conditions in aoe. This gameplay barely has any counter as the ways to cure condis are very restrained compared to the pace of application. Conditions gameplay should rely on covering important ones by less important ones, so that the target struggles to cure them. This is more skillful, but every class has so many different conditions they can apply that you don’t even have to think about it. So people just use all their AOE condi skills in the middle of the point, and spam every skill they have. Targets’ lives are just melting without any strategy. Being downed by 20 different condis in a matter of seconds is lame. Condis should go up in intensity and damage over time with high damage if not cured.
—> Condis are too bursty, not enough means to cure them compared to their number, no defensive weakness.

Concerning solutions:
- AOEs : Simply reduce their number, their range, the number of target they hit, their CD, etc. Of course everything has to be adjusted.
- CCs : Reduce their number, transform some hard-CC into soft-CC, reduce their duration, increase their CD, decrease the number of target they hit, etc. Adjustments needed as well.
- Blocks/Invuln : Reduce their number, their duration, get rid of all passives, introduce new unblockable skills to offer more counterplay, etc.
- Condis : I am for the reduction of the number of conditions thrown on targets by some skills, the limitation of their stack number for an increase of their duration through a “new” mandatory stat (expertise). We could for instance think about dividing conditions inflicted by an AOE skill among all the hit targets (a skill inflicting 5 bleeding stacks to 1 target will inflict 1 stack of bleeding to 5 targets).
- Special – traps : Impossibility to stack traps of the same type at the same location by the same character. All DH’s traps at the same spot ? Nope, now you’ll have to think about where you want to place them. A ranger or another DH will still be able to put a trap on top of a DH’s trap.

That’s it. Of course, this is more than a few tweaks and many huge nerfs are implied, but I believe this is a necessary step to go in the right direction, go back to a more strategic and clear gameplay and get rid of the powercreep introduced with the HoT expansion.

Other related topics could be about matchmaking. The only thing I can say about that is that profession stacking is bad imo. Matches should have a limitation of 2 same professions per team (even possibly 1), and pvp daily should go away (imo as well as all the dailies, but this is another debate).

Thank you for reading me (or not).

You can find the original thread in French on the French forum : https://forum-fr.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Les-changements-faire-en-PvP

How are conditions uncontrollable when most of the viable builds are pure power builds?

gebrechen.5643:

How are conditions uncontrollable when most of the viable builds are pure power builds?

Because any build that actually does do condi puts them on you at such an incredible rate and quantity that no real clear except for 100% full clears make it an even fight.

DH is power because it has no condis. Scrappers are power because hammer lets them tank. Herald is power because its damage output is broken. The rest of the classes will ALWAYS do better as condi than power in a 1v1 (except ele). Don’t look at it as if it were some quantitative thing when it’s qualitative.

A condi mesmer or warrior put out such an absurd volume of conditions I can’t realistically see it being balanced. In fact, condi herald is amazing, as is condi engineer. They’ll break you faster than the power variants will, except herald.

gebrechen.5643:

How are conditions uncontrollable when most of the viable builds are pure power builds?

As Afrocrusade said. Plus the conclusion sentence on condis : “Condis are too bursty, not enough means to cure them compared to their number, no defensive weakness.”

Also this has nothing to do with the fact that more power build are viable. See this as a question of balance. Condis are supposed to be dots. If you read all the post, power builds also need fixes anyway.

gebrechen.5643:

How are conditions uncontrollable when most of the viable builds are pure power builds?

Actually, not really.
The problem with conditions is that we’re stuck in a tank-heavy meta since HoT, that means most viable builds work around surviving for long without a real trade-off in damage. The only real way to go around those tanky builds is condition-heavy builds that are harder for many tanky builds to mitigate or at least force them to make a real choice in skills.

So while the OP makes some interesting points, condition damage is right where it needs to be at this point. Otherwise we’ll go back to season 1 unkillable classes.

Pomdepin.7068:

blocks and invulnerabilities (sometimes passive effects !) are way too numerous. How is it even possible that a warrior (yeah, you again, sorry) can block more than 50% of the time,

LOL. Do you know this game have a class it call Revenant? You should use it for example.

Original Poster raises all the exact sentiments I have been raising for a considerable amount of time now.

Anet needs to enact more discipline in game balancing in concern to pvp on all those listed fronts.

gebrechen.5643:

How are conditions uncontrollable when most of the viable builds are pure power builds?

Its not only about conditions in a vaccum. There are a few specs that have ridiculus condi cleanse to the point where they can somewhat battle the worst condi spam specs. This makes it so that if you actually want to run a condi build you need to be one of the OP ones or the cleanse output simply makes your condis vanish instantly.

Conditions and condition remove is ridiculous. The old condition remove was fine once they nerfed A.R and Diamond skin. They brought A.R. back with resistance warrior and rebuffed diamond skin while giving mesmer condition removal on shatter. Then they over buffed everyone’s conditions after they already made them all stack. The result is a power creeped balance of condition damage and condition removal. Some power creep is fine. But you must have the hp to deal with it. This power creep requires twice the Hp across classes because they are doing twice the damage of the pre HoT builds.

Overall there are too many builds that have far too much of everything.

I am fine with players having access to;
1) stealth
2) teleports
3) Invulnerability
4) snares
5) instant spike damage
6) Blocks
7) Condition removal
8) interrupts
9) Stun breaks
10) Pets
11) super speed
12 En masse boons

My issue is when one build can have 90% of all of this and in limited cases 100%.

It forces a situation that if a player can have all of this, they’d be stupid not to use it.

Ergo the same meta professions and builds prevail and the game becomes stagnant.

Pomdepin.7068:

Anyway, every class got means to block with elite specs.

Reapers would disagree with that statement. Lol

xeonage.1253:

Pomdepin.7068:

blocks and invulnerabilities (sometimes passive effects !) are way too numerous. How is it even possible that a warrior (yeah, you again, sorry) can block more than 50% of the time,

LOL. Do you know this game have a class it call Revenant? You should use it for example.

Don’t get me wrong, revenant is just another example. But imo the common mace-shield berzerker build involves more blocks and invulnerabilities than the power rev with his staff and shield/sword oh. One being cheesy doesn’t mean the other isn’t. Just recognize it.

Shaogin.2679:

Pomdepin.7068:

Anyway, every class got means to block with elite specs.

Reapers would disagree with that statement. Lol

Well maybe not literally EVERY class, but you got it, elite specs got many new powerful skills, even reapers. For example necros-reapers have been overbuffed with all the corruption effects, on more and more skills. Really, I don’t focus on any profession in particular. As I said, I think they are all too powerful in the current state. Like said above, too many can do a lot of everything.

Pomdepin.7068:

Let’s face it: the current state of pvp is quite bad. In this topic, I will present my thoughts on why it is in such a bad place, and how to fix it. Of course, some propositions could be wrong and there might be other concerns not addressed, but this is a global idea to hopefully help developers improving their game.

Before we start, I have to say I think we need more than few fixes, and the global gameplay needs a big overhaul that would be time-consuming, but would also lead toward a healthier game.

So I am going to discuss the following issues: AOEs, CCs, blocks and invulnerabilities, conditions.

- AOEs are far too numerous, too big, too powerful and kill pvp, especially as the objective is to control points on the map. Overlapping DH’s traps, chrono’s wells, ele’s elemental zones, war/zerker burning zones, rev or engi’s AOEs, they are so numerous it becomes a giant fest where people walking into it instantly die. By the way, most of the elite specializations brought many very powerful AOEs compared to what was previously accessible to core specs.
—> AOE spam, visual overload, too high damage distribution.

- CCs became too numerous, too accessible and too frequent.
Some professions and capacities are able to chain CC at such a frequency that even break-stuns can seem useless. In 1v1 fights, we’ll be able to try to dodge or break out of stun on key CCs, but in teamfights where it is a real zerg of effects and where every single profession can CC multiple times, sometimes in AOE, it becomes far too complicated. Triple AOE CC from chrono’s elite well, AOE CC from DH’s elite trap which ignores every stun-break apart from blinks, warrior’s access to a CC every 5 seconds with a single skill in berzerker mode, revenant staff ability which knockbacks every target on its way, etc…
—> CC spam without trying to use them at the right time, lowering significantly the skillcap.

- Blocks and invulnerabilities became too numerous, too accessible and too frequent.
Same statement as CCs, blocks and invulnerabilities (sometimes passive effects !) are way too numerous. How is it even possible that a warrior (yeah, you again, sorry) can block more than 50% of the time, while still being able to be immune to damage and condis via skills or talents, and have 2 dodges in addition ? Waaaay too easy. Anyway, every class got means to block with elite specs.
—> Blocks and invulnerabilities too easy without a real counterplay, lowering the skillcap.

- Conditions have gone uncontrollable !
This is really a huge nonsense. To me, conditions are supposed to be “dots”, so damage over time. But right now, they have a bigger burst than berzerker glasscanons ! WTF seriously ?… This is sad. Like it’s been said many times, direct damage specs need 3 stats to be effective (power, precision, ferocity), whereas condi specs only need one (condi power, arguably 2 with condi duration). As a consequence, those are able to strengthen with vitality, toughness or something else, even though they are more bursty. This problem sometimes goes in pair with the AOE one (condi bombs) to inflict tons of conditions in aoe. This gameplay barely has any counter as the ways to cure condis are very restrained compared to the pace of application. Conditions gameplay should rely on covering important ones by less important ones, so that the target struggles to cure them. This is more skillful, but every class has so many different conditions they can apply that you don’t even have to think about it. So people just use all their AOE condi skills in the middle of the point, and spam every skill they have. Targets’ lives are just melting without any strategy. Being downed by 20 different condis in a matter of seconds is lame. Condis should go up in intensity and damage over time with high damage if not cured.
—> Condis are too bursty, not enough means to cure them compared to their number, no defensive weakness.

So basically, nerf every skill in the game?

Koto.1824:

So basically, nerf every skill in the game?

Hahaha, in a way. GW2 was once very skill reliant. You used poison strategically to pressure your opponent not to heal, or reduce their regen. You interrupted important skills (especially heals). You stacked condis then covered them strategically. You set up bursts and then had to time them around limited opponent dodges. Stability was important to secure resses/stomps, rather than just cleaving like a mofo if you don’t have some stupid super-res capability (druid, scrapper). Really big hitting skills mostly had a big windup, or else had some other drawback (like backstab revealing a thief who once had limited escapes).

Then, they started added extra on-hit procs (2x sigils, tons of on-hit traits). Then added more blocks. Then made everything aoe, instant, or both.

CC’s need to be reigned in (higher CD’s, or not AoE)
Instant damage procs (why condis are bursty) need to be reigned in
AoEs need to be reduced (higher CDs, less damaging than single-target abilities)
Hard defenses need to reigned in (so you don’t need to remove defensive amulets and still end up with a tanky meta b/c people can spam a rotation of blocks/invulns/evades while still doing high damage).

Great thread man, hearts in the right place but you really wasted your time typing this stuff. The studio has zero intention of making any meaningful changes to class to the classes or how they affect each other.

This type of combat hasnt been done before on this scale, and to level it out, it takes a ridiculous amount of creativity and intelligence. They have a great arts team but unfortunately thats about it.

Zelulose.8695:

Conditions and condition remove is ridiculous. The old condition remove was fine once they nerfed A.R and Diamond skin. They brought A.R. back with resistance warrior and rebuffed diamond skin while giving mesmer condition removal on shatter. Then they over buffed everyone’s conditions after they already made them all stack. The result is a power creeped balance of condition damage and condition removal. Some power creep is fine. But you must have the hp to deal with it. This power creep requires twice the Hp across classes because they are doing twice the damage of the pre HoT builds.

I see you still havent figured out why the power creep happened in the first place.

I think Anet may be employ some graphics designer to do skill/class balance and design. You can see many skill logic problems from HoT.

and you need to know
Where are HoT Power creep come from? -> RAID

example:
How to break a boss’s defiance Bar in 5 – 10 sec?
answer:
numerous CC skill ->
PVP… CC aoe , CC CD out of control
example:
How to make condi damage become MUST in raid?
answer:
condi can be stack and increase damage, make some condi hurting mode for boss->
PVP… condi kind , stack , time out of control -> cleaning become MUST -> cleaning CD , effect area out of control
example:
How to make long survival time and tank under raid boss’s crazy damage?
answer:
increase block , dodge , inv , movement , healing ->
PVP… less touch time , hard to kill people -> increase damage, boon stack out of control
example:
How to kill the raid boss/minions in a limit time and under raid’s crazy damage?
answer:
increase damage , def & off same time skill , AoE damage skill , AoE cc skill , AoE condi skill , boon stack , condi stack …… ->
PVP… Just put AoE in that smaaaaallll circle PLEASE!

Raid kill PvP and WvW.

We remind them because we love this last mmo. But if they don’t face the problem and improve it. No one can save GW2.

The main difference between a developer and a gamer is that the first know what he’s talking about, he’s the one capable of creating content , he has a clear vision.
The gamer mostly is an arrogant wannabe dev with no real knowledge of design principles, only capable of reflecting their bias through overly dramatic threads.

The OP does not mention things like Stealth Mechanic in his opening, as such I assume that this specific implementation of Stealth in GW2 is considered fine and balanced, when in truth taking in consideration other games : WoW, Aion, FF VIII, LoR among the biggest ones , we can clearly say that Stealth in GW2 is the most absurd implementation ever seen in a MMO, no drawbacks, stackable and that doesn’t break on dmg received ( this alone is the biggest mistake ).

Another mechanic not mentioned by the OP : Instant damage on low CD, the amount of insta cast attacks has increased greatly with HoT, again in other games , insta cast skill not only have longer CD but also have clear drawbacks like secondary effects : exaustion-self daze and so on

My suggestion to the OP if you hope to ever become a designer…then learn to put your bias aside, there is very little mention of thieves in your OP, which on the contrary of general beliefs on this forum, are one of the main source of concern when it comes to create your own build.

Since launch every player had to always follow 2 rules in order to use any build:

1) Has it got enough condi clear?

2) Can survive thief burst?

Because you know , as thieves are allowed to ignore LoS they make all builds that rely on positioning to stay alive….completely worthless and that is a kittening big factor that has influenced GW2 since launch.

Many power/condi build that could use positioning as main source of defense are made useless by thieves, literally unplayable , as such under no circumstance, a balance discussion can afford to leave thieves on the fringe..like they’re the victims or something, thieves are the ones who started the tank meta during Winter 2012 because of their HS broken spam and their tendency to say :" if you want to survive our burst, you need more toughness*.

What people must realize is that " Power Creep" as you call it..has always been a consequence to a sudden spike in power/condi dmg : traits like A.R and Diamond Skin were introduced after the Dhuumfire madness; d/d ele was born to give eles , a chance to stand up to HS thieves and so on

Its kind of funny that most of what you say in the OP are issues that players complained about before HoT was released. For some reason the devs thought it would be good to make all those bad things even worse with HoT.

Of course “for some reason” = pve. Obviously no consideration was given to pvp in designing HoT. And that is a real shame because imo even now it still somehow has the best small-scale pvp of any mmo.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Overall there are too many builds that have far too much of everything.

I am fine with players having access to;
1) stealth
2) teleports
3) Invulnerability
4) snares
5) instant spike damage
6) Blocks
7) Condition removal
8) interrupts
9) Stun breaks
10) Pets
11) super speed
12 En masse boons

My issue is when one build can have 90% of all of this and in limited cases 100%.

It forces a situation that if a player can have all of this, they’d be stupid not to use it.

Ergo the same meta professions and builds prevail and the game becomes stagnant.

Thats exactly the problem, the power creep is associated with this, the mechanics introduced with HOT. They didn’t just increased the power output, they gave stuff that the original class didn’t had. So what happens they have access to all kinds of stuff and not just minor things, onpar with things that other classes had specific roles to it. So instead of we maybe want a bruiser so i need to go with that class i can just go with whatever and be a bruiser that has more mobility and more damage….
But OP points some stuff, condition damage is way too powerfull, but oh! theres only 3 classes in 9 that have condi meta builds!, so youre clearly wrong ecs dee…. Obviously that there are classes that were made in mind to deal with condis, and well, you only require 1 stat to improve your condi damage! so i can do normal damage and do really good condi damage without loosing much. Another point would be just look at the changelog and watch how it balanced itself, more spamming different conditions, more condi cleanses. Guardian can only use burn, with so many condi cleans, do you think it will be ever viable to have a condi guardian? No, not like this, because the only solution that anet sees is probably just put more conditions that guardian can use, i mean if they really want to give diverse playstyles to each class, wich you wont be seeing until near the next expansion….
Every class needs an overhaul FROM SCRATCH! The game is to a degree enjoyable now with every class being played at high level but if they want to give more playstyles for each class, let the viewer actually understand all the cluster of special effects on the screen, maybe, just maybe they should actually rebuild their class specializations and retune the original class.