Guild Wars 2

This must have been brought up at some point, but does chilled affect initiative recharge rate?

If it does not, it is kind of strange that one class would have inherent partial immunity to a condition.

What do you all think?

It has been brought up before. Thieves got their panties in a bunch, so it stopped being brought up at all.

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

It’s a good idea. I agree!
Chilled could reduce iniciative recharge speed.

No, but those two classes have … cooldowns.

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

Not.

These classes have CD in skills.

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Plus it also has the movement speed reduction which is quite punishing for any mobility based thief, which is most of them.

Softspoken.2410:

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Plus it also has the movement speed reduction which is quite punishing for any mobility based thief, which is most of them.

Please elaborate on how chill affects teleports. Because that is the thief atm

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Softspoken.2410:

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Plus it also has the movement speed reduction which is quite punishing for any mobility based thief, which is most of them.

Please elaborate on how chill affects teleports. Because that is the thief atm

Heh, it doesn’t, but ‘leaping’ skills like Flanking Strike and especially Heartseeker have reduced range (and don’t tell me that nobody uses heartseeker as a gap closer). As well, if you chill a thief, and they vanish into stealth as their ‘escape’ but the chill sticks to them, it’s not very difficult to find where they went.

OK, so how about this:
Chilled – Cooldown increased by 50% + 2 seconds instead of 66%.
Those panties still bunched up?

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Softspoken.2410:

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

I definitely see where you are coming from since the thief mechanic for skills 1-5 is different than the other classes but there has to be some balanced way to give thieves some kind of penalty to their ability to use skills 1-5 when chilled. My guess is that this would be some reduction to initiative recharge rate, whether that be 66% or some other number.

The benefit to this is thinking twice before spamming skills. For example, necro staff marks are powerful and staff auto is less powerful. If a necro decides to spam staff marks and then is chilled, however, it serves as punishment because they won’t be able to cast their next set of marks as quickly. This is just an example of something that is commonly spammed but applies to all skills of all weapon sets.

Just like this, if a thief spams heartseeker or any skill then is chilled, there should be some punishment like all other classes. Again, it doesn’t come up much as there isn’t a ton of chill going around out there but it could lead to some clutch plays (eg, stealth spammer leaves stealth, someone times chill right, takes longer to get back in stealth)

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

You’ll also note it still affects heals, utilities, the class skill, and elites, because those have CD timers.

Case closed.

evilapprentice.6379:

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

Case closed.

Well that would be an easy answer. Do you have a link to this?

Sepreh.5924:

evilapprentice.6379:

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

Case closed.

Well that would be an easy answer. Do you have a link to this?

Looking for it now – the problem is looking up “chilled” and “initiative” mainly leads to the boards.

evilapprentice.6379:

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

You’ll also note it still affects heals, utilities, the class skill, and elites, because those have CD timers.

Case closed.

[citation needed]

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

Indirectly.

They don’t regenerate at a fixed rate like init. They’re generated through the use of abilities which are affected by chill.

On the other side..chill an elementalist and watch him cry waiting for his water to come back at 1/3 the time it should

Anyone with any other ideas about how chilled should affect initiative?

Or, can anyone confirm that ANet said initiative was designed with chilled in mind?

Softspoken.2410:

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Plus it also has the movement speed reduction which is quite punishing for any mobility based thief, which is most of them.

no you are wrong.

if any other class doesn’t have any skills on cooldown it doesnt effect any recharges and in the same way if the thief has not used any skills then initiative recharge is also not effected because it is full.

having the benefit of using the same skills over and over but dependent on a resource pool is the reward, the risk is finite resources and the opportunity cost of using one skill over another. Thieves have flexibility that no other class has in this way. This flexibility sure as hell should NOT give them 50% immunity from a condition as well.

Their utilities have longer cooldowns with chilled, so 50% is quite an exaggeration.

Dredlord.8076:

Softspoken.2410:

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Plus it also has the movement speed reduction which is quite punishing for any mobility based thief, which is most of them.

no you are wrong.

if any other class doesn’t have any skills on cooldown it doesnt effect any recharges and in the same way if the thief has not used any skills then initiative recharge is also not effected because it is full.

having the benefit of using the same skills over and over but dependent on a resource pool is the reward, the risk is finite resources and the opportunity cost of using one skill over another. Thieves have flexibility that no other class has in this way. This flexibility sure as hell should NOT give them 50% immunity from a condition as well.

No, you’re wrong, and “50%” is a silly number you made up that doesn’t mean anything.

Initiative has both positive and negative aspects -
Positive – skills don’t go on cooldown, can be used repeatedly.
Negative – Instead of having 2 separate weaponsets with their own unique cooldowns, thieves get 1 pool of “actions” with all equipped weapons. A warrior can go nuts and blow every single GS skill as quickly as possible…then switch to Axe/Shield and have access to all 5 skills. If a thief blows all his initiative with D/P…He’s out of actions until init regens.

In addition, spammable abilities come with a cost – thieves are denied some effects on their weaponskills precisely because they are spammable. No KD/KB/Launch/Pull. Extremely short durations on Stun/Daze/Immobilize. No skills that grant any useable duration of a Boon. I’m not claiming this is unfair (its perfectly fair, the skills are spammable), but it’s something most don’t notice because they never bothered to play thief.

Now to clear up your made up numbers. Chill has 2 unique effects – a snare, and CD increase. so, 50/50. The chill fully affects a thief – the CD increase effects skills 6-10, which all have CD timers. The only thing unaffected is weaponskills – so a thief is immune to roughly 25% of chills effect. Seeing as how reliant thief is on mobility to remain alive, however (no prot/aegis/stability, poor regen, lowest base healthpool), that snare affects them more than most other classes.

Softspoken.2410:

it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Congrats, you realized how chill works for any other class. If someone uses a skill under chill, they have to wait longer until the skill is ready again. That has the exact same effect if initiative would be chillable.

shimmerless.4560:

chilled is strong enough against a class that needs constant movement to stay alive. i think this would be a very negative change/would make some classes even more powerful

Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so.

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

chilled is strong enough against a class that needs constant movement to stay alive. i think this would be a very negative change/would make some classes even more powerful

Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so.

Aw, I hope nobody thinks I was thinking NERF, NERF, NERF when I created this thread. That was not the intention. I found it unusual that chilled did not affect intiative and wanted a discussion with both sides. Not playing a thief, I am unable to think of all the implications to a change like this so all the input is much appreciated.

What would you think about some reduction in initiative recharge but lower than 66%. I am not sure what number would make sense. It seems like there should be SOME effect on ability to use skills 1-5, it is just not clear to me how much

Okay, my thoughts on chill and why thieves should get the full pentalty on initiative regen.

• Chill durations are balanced around the 66% recharge penalty. That’s why chill lasts shorter than cripple

• Every class gets the full 66% penalty on skill recharges. Giving thieves a 66% initiative penalty is mechanically equivalent.

• Thieves still have skills and traits that grant initiative regeneration by fixed amounts (1 or 2 initiative per 10 seconds) or even as a proc effect (initiative on crit). I made a nice post that converts x additional initiative / 10 seconds in effective cooldown recharge traits.

• The counter-argument mobility/survivability: There are other classes which are dependent on mobility for survival (elementalist and any full-glass spec to a degree) which get the full recharge and movement penalty from chill. Also stealth, evades and shadow steps still work while chilled.

Edit: Here is the breakdown on init/10sec vs cooldown reduction

Chill could simply affect initiative at 1/4th the rate it’d affect other classes cooldowns. Why? On anyone else, 4 skills is the most chilled can affect.

So, about a ~17% reduction on initiative generation.

Oxygen.5918:

Chill could simply affect initiative at 1/4th the rate it’d affect other classes cooldowns. Why? On anyone else, 4 skills is the most chilled can affect.

So, about a ~17% reduction on initiative generation.

Okay once again: Chill does affect skills used during the chill. The new cooldowns recharge slower until the chill ends.

Also, I don’t get your logic for the 1/4th rate. Elementalists have 16 weapon skills which are affected by chill – should they only get a 1/16th of the normal chill penalty?

As long as initiative recharge goes back to what it was in beta.

(1, instead of 1.33)

pmnt.4067:

Softspoken.2410:

it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Congrats, you realized how chill works for any other class. If someone uses a skill under chill, they have to wait longer until the skill is ready again. That has the exact same effect if initiative would be chillable.

Missing the point of the entire post

Also incorrect. If initiative suffered from chill, the effect would be that if a thief used a skill, they would either be able to still use it again immediately, or have to wait longer to use anything at all.

What about this: chilled causes skills to consume 50% more initiative. This way the counterplay is exactly the same as classes with cds: wait for the chilled effect to wear off before spamming your heart out.

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

Does blind affect initiative regen? Because it does affect life force and adrenaline. So does aegis or dodging.

pmnt.4067:

• The counter-argument mobility/survivability: There are other classes which are dependent on mobility for survival (elementalist and any full-glass spec to a degree) which get the full recharge and movement penalty from chill. Also stealth, evades and shadow steps still work while chilled.

Elementalists have the options to go tanky if they desire – thieves do not.

Elemenatalists have access to protection, stability, blocks, supplemental heals, and immunity skills regardless of their spec – Thieves do not. In fact, every class in the game (Except maybe necro? I don’t know them that well, but top tier base HP and a second health bar certainly help) has the option to slot a utility that stops all direct damage/total immunity, and many have blocks attached to their utilities/weapon choices.

Stealth is useless while chilled – it’s really easy to keep hitting a thief moving at 66% movement speed. Evades that move you 33% of the distance don’t do kitten to get you out of trouble. Shadow steps will get you out of trouble, but you have the potential to be almost completely useless because there are plenty of situations where Shbow doesn’t cut it, and we have no other competent ranged options.

Chilled clearly affects thieves more than any other class because thieves are by far the most reliant on mobility to both deal damage AND stay alive. We can’t knock you down to keep you in place – our stun options are limited to a 1s cast time elite and PW, which last 1s and .5s respectively. Immobilize is limited to Inf strike and a venom which see’s little use due to how poorly designed venom’s are. Tripwire and scorpion wire might one day invalidate some of what I’ve said above, but they’re currently poorly implemented/designed, and not worth taking.

Zenith.7301:

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

Does blind affect initiative regen? Because it does affect life force and adrenaline. So does aegis or dodging.

It does – if you spend init on a skill that misses due to blind, it’s hurt your initiative pool… the same way that a blind/aegis/dodging hurts adrenaline/lifeforce buildup – you’ve spent a resource and saw no gain from it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Zenith.7301:

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

Does blind affect initiative regen? Because it does affect life force and adrenaline. So does aegis or dodging.

It does – if you spend init on a skill that misses due to blind, it’s hurt your initiative pool… the same way that a blind/aegis/dodging hurts adrenaline/lifeforce buildup – you’ve spent a resource and saw no gain from it.

This is so stupid lol. By that logic the same can be said of any ability, and then you have non-intiative classes double penalized by chill and blind.

First of:
Why should thief need a nerf like that ?

1 chill on a thief that doesn’t uses stealth = he is gone be dead
Seeing non stealth non S/x based thiefs have no way of successfully managing condition removals without dropping damage.
and a thief that isn’t moving = a dead thief .

so all this would do is make sure thiefs would either play perma stealth builds or S/X evade builds

now secondly:

a thief that presses a skill 2 times , will do the skill 2 times , even if he didnt want it to.
the downside of not having any cooldowns and having skills that can be Que’d after each other ( punishing spamming )

Now imagen a thief that pressed 3 times Hearthseeker , and a necro that gave him chill after the first HS, the 2 other Hs will still go off , and thief will have wasted that initiatief and there’s nothing he can do about it.

so chill does punish the initiatief system , but only for thiefs that spam attacks .

I wonder if Chill on Initiative has actually been tested internally. I kinda get the feeling that it would be incredibly painful to try to deal with; Chill’s still a very nasty condition even if it only affects utility skills, and while I’m not an expert in thieves, condition clearing isn’t exactly their strong suit.

Chill should affect initiative regen the same way it affects weapon skill recharge for other classes, period.

Shar.3402:

Chill should affect initiative regen the same way it affects weapon skill recharge for other classes, period.

And thief should get a free initiative bar when he weapon switches the same way other classes can do it?

stof.9341:

Shar.3402:

Chill should affect initiative regen the same way it affects weapon skill recharge for other classes, period.

And thief should get a free initiative bar when he weapon switches the same way other classes can do it?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quick_Pockets
+ others.
BTW other classes got skills with 20-40s cd on their weapon sets.

As expected, the thieves have their panties in a bunch. Notice how all of them are “Oh, no, chill would totally destroy us because it would be so much more powerful on us than on any other class because reasons and bla bla bla”
These boards make me chuckle.

Shar.3402:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quick_Pockets
+ others.
BTW other classes got skills with 20-40s cd on their weapon sets.

Oh look, a Grandmaster trait. This surely means we should assume every single thief in the game takes.

The Boz.2038:

As expected, the thieves have their panties in a bunch. Notice how all of them are “Oh, no, chill would totally destroy us because it would be so much more powerful on us than on any other class because reasons and bla bla bla”
These boards make me chuckle.

I never said that. You must have problems with reading comprehension assuming you even read at all what was said.

I’m just pointing up that initiative and weapon cooldowns are different enough already you cannot just say : “Initiative is the thief CD so Chilled should affect it” without some serious justification.

Also, I’m not playing a thief in PvP. Warrior is more fun.

Why do you think I was even talking about you? Narcissistic much?

The Boz.2038:

Why do you think I was even talking about you? Narcissistic much?

Because you talked about nobody in particular, so you talked about everybody in that tread, so by extension you talked about my reply earlier too.

Stof, what do you think about chilled having some effect on initiative recharge, maybe just not the full 66%

evilapprentice.6379:

Elementalists have the options to go tanky if they desire – thieves do not.

Everything after this quote is worthless since it defined your lack of build knowledge, Please tell me what else is a permastealth (and i dont mean BS poke) thief than a tanky evade kitten, you can be in a evasion movement for 4 of 5 seconds for 25~ seconds before popping a long cd utility…

Void.4239:

Now imagen a thief that pressed 3 times Hearthseeker , and a necro that gave him chill after the first HS, the 2 other Hs will still go off , and thief will have wasted that initiatief and there’s nothing he can do about it.
so chill does punish the initiatief system , but only for thiefs that spam attacks .

Or, you know, he could press ESC, one of the movement keybinds, his dodge if needed or plain reselect/click another skill before the first HSSs animation finished.

Sepreh.5924:

Stof, what do you think about chilled having some effect on initiative recharge, maybe just not the full 66%

Honestly, it could work but I’m not sure it’s worth the bother doing it. The balance seems kind of OK currently so why change it?

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

yes
longer CD of burst skills
longer CD of deathshroud skills
longer CD of adrenaline gaining skills (outside of pure hitting)
longer CD of lifeforce gaining skills
longer CD before being able to re-enter death shroud

i would love to see chill slow down initiative regen

stof.9341:

The Boz.2038:

Why do you think I was even talking about you? Narcissistic much?

Because you talked about nobody in particular, so you talked about everybody in that tread, so by extension you talked about my reply earlier too.

I talked about thieves complaining that chill would be OP for them.
You are neither a thief, nor did you say chill would be OP for them.

Andele.1306:

evilapprentice.6379:

Elementalists have the options to go tanky if they desire – thieves do not.

Everything after this quote is worthless since it defined your lack of build knowledge, Please tell me what else is a permastealth (and i dont mean BS poke) thief than a tanky evade kitten, you can be in a evasion movement for 4 of 5 seconds for 25~ seconds before popping a long cd utility…
.

… seriously? “Tanky”? Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take… it doesn’t grant stability.. it doesn’t regenerate health (without a grandmaster trait), you can’t hold/contest a point during it… it doesn’t let you block… and I’m the one with a lack of build knowledge? You seem to have trouble with an MMO’s basic definitions (“Tanky”,‘Dodgy", etc..), I’m not sure you’re qualified yet to understand builds.

You’ll also note, we’re specifically talking about chilled here, which seriously hampers evasive game play and stealth – if you can’t keep beating on a thief who stealthed moving at 33% movement speed, you probably should go play a game more suited to your skills, like tic-tac-toe or something (But be careful, X is OP and needs to be nerfed).