Guild Wars 2

Shar.3402:

Chill should affect initiative regen the same way it affects weapon skill recharge for other classes, period.

Chill should not affect initiative regen the same way it affects weapon skill recharge for other classes, period.

Wow, that was easy – it’s almost like you can assert anything as long as you pretend facts don’t matter!

Chill affecting initiative would essentially slow 4 weapon skills at once, instead of one skill at a time. I’m not a thief, but even I can see this would really hurt them. The real problem is the initiative system itself that enables thief’s to do what they do.

stof.9341:

Shar.3402:

Chill should affect initiative regen the same way it affects weapon skill recharge for other classes, period.

And thief should get a free initiative bar when he weapon switches the same way other classes can do it?

+1
People seem to forget that a lot about thiefs :p

They got 3 skills they can do , then have to wait 15 secs to be able to do another 3 skills

people should just ask themselfs:

- why do thiefs have to use traits to get a better initiatief regain?
cause normale initiatief regain just plainly sucks.

- why did devs change ini regain from 1-1.33 ( on a class they already have nerved heavily each patch )

Maybe its cause build diversity?… Change anything to initiatief regain and every thief will be a S/D evade build , or a D/p perma stealth build

ow and just so people know D/p perma stealth builds wont have any trouble with a slower ini regain from chills ( remove condi in stealth / gain 2 ini in stealth …. )

it would just eliminate any other possible build a thief could do thats effectief in 1 way or another. leaving thiefs with a perma stealth build people complain about so much.

What about giving every thieves abilites 3-5s cd when used under chill instead of reducing ini regen? I don’t think a nerf is needed at all, just pointing an alternative.

Puru.4217:

What about giving every thieves abilites 3-5s cd when used under chill instead of reducing ini regen? I don’t think a nerf is needed at all, just pointing an alternative.

nope wont happen
anything above 1 sec = big nerf

just tell me why thiefs should even be considered for an initiatief nerf / alternative ?

only thing they need to look at is multiple heartseekers in combo with blackpowder
(atm it gives back 2ini everytime they do it , for a total of 6 ini . and that is to much)

but strangely it would be the thief build less effected by the chill chance.

A little earlier it was mentioned that the initiative recharge rate of thieves was at one point changed from 1 to 1.33. What if chilled brought it back to 1 for the duration of the chill

I think we can all agree that initiative has different properties and these need to be taken into account when considering what to do with chill but that to simply say “lets not have it affect skills 1-5” when all other classes are affected by it is silly

I’d just like to point out that when a skill is cast, the cooldown continues to recharge 66% slower even after the chill has ended – something thief initiative doesn’t even have to worry about with the proposed change.

NornBearPig.9814:

I’d just like to point out that when a skill is cast, the cooldown continues to recharge 66% slower even after the chill has ended – something thief initiative doesn’t even have to worry about with the proposed change.

I’m pretty sure (not entirely though, which is why I’m leaving room for doubt) that’s 100% incorrect. Chill causes skills to CD 66% slower While chilled, otherwise it seems like it would be ungodly OP.

Sepreh.5924:

A little earlier it was mentioned that the initiative recharge rate of thieves was at one point changed from 1 to 1.33. What if chilled brought it back to 1 for the duration of the chill

I think we can all agree that initiative has different properties and these need to be taken into account when considering what to do with chill but that to simply say “lets not have it affect skills 1-5” when all other classes are affected by it is silly

1 to 1.33 was a nerf. Before thief would regen 1 initiative every 1s, now it’s 1 every 1.33s

Ahh, I was thinking 1 per second to 1.33 per second :-p

ahuba.6430:

does chill affect life force and adrenaline?

It affects the recharge of the skills used in deathshroud and the burst skill recharge, I believe.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dredlord.8076:

Softspoken.2410:

It doesn’t, but realize exactly how crippling chill would be on a thief if it did: unlike other professions where it would slow down the recharge only of skills they’ve already used, it would slow down the ‘recharge’ of every weapon skill (besides 1) for a thief.

Plus it also has the movement speed reduction which is quite punishing for any mobility based thief, which is most of them.

no you are wrong.

if any other class doesn’t have any skills on cooldown it doesnt effect any recharges and in the same way if the thief has not used any skills then initiative recharge is also not effected because it is full.

having the benefit of using the same skills over and over but dependent on a resource pool is the reward, the risk is finite resources and the opportunity cost of using one skill over another. Thieves have flexibility that no other class has in this way. This flexibility sure as hell should NOT give them 50% immunity from a condition as well.

No, you’re wrong, and “50%” is a silly number you made up that doesn’t mean anything.

Initiative has both positive and negative aspects -
Positive – skills don’t go on cooldown, can be used repeatedly.
Negative – Instead of having 2 separate weaponsets with their own unique cooldowns, thieves get 1 pool of “actions” with all equipped weapons. A warrior can go nuts and blow every single GS skill as quickly as possible…then switch to Axe/Shield and have access to all 5 skills. If a thief blows all his initiative with D/P…He’s out of actions until init regens.

In addition, spammable abilities come with a cost – thieves are denied some effects on their weaponskills precisely because they are spammable. No KD/KB/Launch/Pull. Extremely short durations on Stun/Daze/Immobilize. No skills that grant any useable duration of a Boon. I’m not claiming this is unfair (its perfectly fair, the skills are spammable), but it’s something most don’t notice because they never bothered to play thief.

Now to clear up your made up numbers. Chill has 2 unique effects – a snare, and CD increase. so, 50/50. The chill fully affects a thief – the CD increase effects skills 6-10, which all have CD timers. The only thing unaffected is weaponskills – so a thief is immune to roughly 25% of chills effect. Seeing as how reliant thief is on mobility to remain alive, however (no prot/aegis/stability, poor regen, lowest base healthpool), that snare affects them more than most other classes.

yes I covered the prosand cons of initiative in my post, were you having trouble understanding it? or did you think repeating it would add validity to your argument?

I never have problems with initiative on my thief, try a different spec or stop mashing your keys if you are having trouble here…

Now to clear up your made up numbers…
If you are going to correct me on the “math” you might as well get it right.
You have 10 weapon skills not 5, did you forget you had another weapon set or were you too busy spamming heartseeker? Perhaps we can agree on 33% immunity to chill then.

Thieves have amazing mobility even when snared rooted or hard cc’ed on top of great condition cleansing, if you didn’t spoec that way thats your own fault and just shows you are too stuborn to respec when the meta changes.

There is no good reason chill shouldn’t effect initiative gain on some level.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m pretty sure (not entirely though, which is why I’m leaving room for doubt) that’s 100% incorrect. Chill causes skills to CD 66% slower While chilled, otherwise it seems like it would be ungodly OP.

Last time I tested was september, so yea I may be wrong.

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

chilled is strong enough against a class that needs constant movement to stay alive. i think this would be a very negative change/would make some classes even more powerful

Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so.

and here you are too stupid to realize he’s on your side and still you bash him.

you need to read the posts before you respond kid.

evilapprentice.6379:

Andele.1306:

evilapprentice.6379:

Elementalists have the options to go tanky if they desire – thieves do not.

Everything after this quote is worthless since it defined your lack of build knowledge, Please tell me what else is a permastealth (and i dont mean BS poke) thief than a tanky evade kitten, you can be in a evasion movement for 4 of 5 seconds for 25~ seconds before popping a long cd utility…
.

… seriously? “Tanky”? Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take… it doesn’t grant stability.. it doesn’t regenerate health (without a grandmaster trait), you can’t hold/contest a point during it… it doesn’t let you block… and I’m the one with a lack of build knowledge? You seem to have trouble with an MMO’s basic definitions (“Tanky”,‘Dodgy", etc..), I’m not sure you’re qualified yet to understand builds.

You’ll also note, we’re specifically talking about chilled here, which seriously hampers evasive game play and stealth – if you can’t keep beating on a thief who stealthed moving at 33% movement speed, you probably should go play a game more suited to your skills, like tic-tac-toe or something (But be careful, X is OP and needs to be nerfed).

your whole argument seems to rely on us both pretending the thief doesn’t have any dodges, evades, no cooldown stunbreaks, teleports etc.

again if your build doesn’t take advantage of these things perhaps someone can help you with that.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

chilled is strong enough against a class that needs constant movement to stay alive. i think this would be a very negative change/would make some classes even more powerful

Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so.

and here you are too stupid to realize he’s on your side and still you bash him.

you need to read the posts before you respond kid.

I was bashing people like you by pointing out his position was too well thought out for anyone here to follow. Thank you So much for exemplifying exactly what I was saying so utterly perfectly. I mean, this couldn’t have gone any better. Thank you.

hahahaha nice backpedal, you look some clever now…

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

Andele.1306:

evilapprentice.6379:

Elementalists have the options to go tanky if they desire – thieves do not.

Everything after this quote is worthless since it defined your lack of build knowledge, Please tell me what else is a permastealth (and i dont mean BS poke) thief than a tanky evade kitten, you can be in a evasion movement for 4 of 5 seconds for 25~ seconds before popping a long cd utility…
.

… seriously? “Tanky”? Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take… it doesn’t grant stability.. it doesn’t regenerate health (without a grandmaster trait), you can’t hold/contest a point during it… it doesn’t let you block… and I’m the one with a lack of build knowledge? You seem to have trouble with an MMO’s basic definitions (“Tanky”,‘Dodgy", etc..), I’m not sure you’re qualified yet to understand builds.

You’ll also note, we’re specifically talking about chilled here, which seriously hampers evasive game play and stealth – if you can’t keep beating on a thief who stealthed moving at 33% movement speed, you probably should go play a game more suited to your skills, like tic-tac-toe or something (But be careful, X is OP and needs to be nerfed).

your whole argument seems to rely on us both pretending the thief doesn’t have any dodges, evades, no cooldown stunbreaks, teleports etc.

again if your build doesn’t take advantage of these things perhaps someone can help you with that.

What do stunbreaks have to do with chill? Oh yeah, Nothing.
Dodges and evades are seriously hampered by chill, which was the main part of my point.
You know what chill doesn’t hamper? Immune, block, protection, regen, stability.

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

chilled is strong enough against a class that needs constant movement to stay alive. i think this would be a very negative change/would make some classes even more powerful

Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so.

and here you are too stupid to realize he’s on your side and still you bash him.

you need to read the posts before you respond kid.

I was bashing people like you by pointing out his position was too well thought out for anyone here to follow. Thank you So much for exemplifying exactly what I was saying so utterly perfectly. I mean, this couldn’t have gone any better. Thank you.

hahahaha nice backpedal, you look some clever now…

You’re in over your head intellectually here son, allow me to educate you.

“Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so."

Read that second sentence – I’m disparaging (since I know you’re going to need it, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disparaging?s=t) those people.

I’ve specifically set shimmerless apart from that group by pointing out that he thinks.

Ergo (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ergo?s=ts), you should probably refrain from any “battle of wits” in the future. You’re clearly ill equipped.

Jayce.5632:

Chill affecting initiative would essentially slow 4 weapon skills at once, instead of one skill at a time. I’m not a thief, but even I can see this would really hurt them. The real problem is the initiative system itself that enables thief’s to do what they do.

ok I can see how the auto attack spammers can relate to this argument because well nothing is on cooldown.

When I get hit by chill most of the time it is reducing the cooldown on more than 4 of my weapon skills.

I guess thieves don’t realize this because they have the luxury of staying in one weapon set all the time.

evilapprentice.6379:

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

shimmerless.4560:

chilled is strong enough against a class that needs constant movement to stay alive. i think this would be a very negative change/would make some classes even more powerful

Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so.

and here you are too stupid to realize he’s on your side and still you bash him.

you need to read the posts before you respond kid.

I was bashing people like you by pointing out his position was too well thought out for anyone here to follow. Thank you So much for exemplifying exactly what I was saying so utterly perfectly. I mean, this couldn’t have gone any better. Thank you.

hahahaha nice backpedal, you look some clever now…

You’re in over your head intellectually here son, allow me to educate you.

“Ah, there’s your problem shimmerless – you “thought”.

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble nerf” to do so."

Read that second sentence – I’m disparaging (since I know you’re going to need it, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disparaging?s=t) those people.

I’ve specifically set shimmerless apart from that group by pointing out that he thinks.

Ergo (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ergo?s=ts), you should probably refrain from any “battle of wits” in the future. You’re clearly ill equipped.

if you are so smart why can’t you even get simple math right in your previous post?

and by all means include links in your excuse if it makes you feel smarter…

evilapprentice.6379:

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

You’ll also note it still affects heals, utilities, the class skill, and elites, because those have CD timers.

Case closed.

btw we are still waiting for your reference, too busy pretending to be smart?

One thing to mention about chill affecting initiative regen: Chill only affects skills on other classes that are used with the chill condition on. If you made chill slow down initiative regen that would mean that, effectively, skills that were used prior to being chilled would have their cooldowns slowed down which would mean that it would impact the thief class more than other classes.

The only reasonable suggestion I’ve seen is having chilled affect the amount of initiative that skills required.

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

The Boz.2038:

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

Unfortunately I could not find the article I was referring to. Oh well.

So, do you have any reason you disagree with me, or are you on the “Blind assertions are always right” bandwagon? Agree or disagree, I listed the reasons why I felt that way. If you want to assert that I’m wrong, you’re going to have to back it up.

NornBearPig.9814:

I’d just like to point out that when a skill is cast, the cooldown continues to recharge 66% slower even after the chill has ended – something thief initiative doesn’t even have to worry about with the proposed change.

NornBearPig.9814:

Last time I tested was september, so yea I may be wrong.

Ah. So, first make a bold, assertive claim about your understanding of a certain mechanic and then quick back peddling after you are exposed to actually not knowing a kitten ed thing about what you are talking about. Why not take the time to actually look into something before spreading baseless claims?

I even love how you have the “I’d just like to point out” as if what you were pointing out was something that had flown over our heads originally and we need your deep insight to show us how we carelessly overlooked this tricky dynamic within the world of chilled targets.

This kind of misinformation ruins threads and quality of forums.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sepreh.5924:

evilapprentice.6379:

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

Case closed.

Well that would be an easy answer. Do you have a link to this?

Looking for it now – the problem is looking up “chilled” and “initiative” mainly leads to the boards.

oh I see now, you read some other player say it so it must be true and then I guess you got busy “parroting” what you heard other thief fanboys say and it became gospel?

is this what happened?

you seem to be somewhat familiar with this scenario…

evilapprentice.6379:

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble my class is too hard to play and spec” to do so.

cmon tell me this isn’t what happened

Zzod.5791:

NornBearPig.9814:

I’d just like to point out that when a skill is cast, the cooldown continues to recharge 66% slower even after the chill has ended – something thief initiative doesn’t even have to worry about with the proposed change.

NornBearPig.9814:

Last time I tested was september, so yea I may be wrong.

Ah. So, first make a bold, assertive claim about your understanding of a certain mechanic and then quick back peddling after you are exposed to actually not knowing a kitten ed thing about what you are talking about. Why not take the time to actually look into something before spreading baseless claims?

I even love how you have the “I’d just like to point out” as if what you were pointing out was something that had flown over our heads originally and we need your deep insight to show us how we carelessly overlooked this tricky dynamic within the world of chilled targets.

This kind of misinformation ruins threads and quality of forums.

That’s unfortunately how these forums operate. People spread mis-information (Most just stick to it like a hard Line, at least Nornbearpig was willing to admit he might be wrong), and let confirmation bias kicks in. The amount of kitten people post on these boards that expose how kitten poor their understanding of this games most basic mechanics is astounding. I’ve never participated in a forum where this problem was as bad as it is here.

Go ahead and look, literally everything a thief can do is considered OP by someone, and they can easily find support for their harebrained opinion.

Dredlord.8076:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sepreh.5924:

evilapprentice.6379:

google.3709:

Thief are immune to 2 conditions : )

1. Chill for stated reasons
2. Blind (barely noticible unless its on CnD)

Immune to chill? Do thieves not move at a reduced speed when they’re chilled? News to me.

Chill was specifically designed with initiative in mind – someone at Anet specifically used chill as an example to how thieves CD mechanics were different than the other classes, mentioning that the CD slowdown part of chill was specifically designed to not affect initiative.

Case closed.

Well that would be an easy answer. Do you have a link to this?

Looking for it now – the problem is looking up “chilled” and “initiative” mainly leads to the boards.

oh I see now, you read some other player say it so it must be true and then I guess you got busy “parroting” what you heard other thief fanboys say and it became gospel?

is this what happened?

you seem to be somewhat familiar with this scenario…

evilapprentice.6379:

Most of the posters on these boards are too busy just parroting “Thief rabble rabble my class is too hard to play and spec” to do so.

cmon tell me this isn’t what happened

Shh Shh, you’re done son.

evilapprentice.6379:

The Boz.2038:

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

Unfortunately I could not find the article I was referring to. Oh well.

So, do you have any reason you disagree with me, or are you on the “Blind assertions are always right” bandwagon? Agree or disagree, I listed the reasons why I felt that way. If you want to assert that I’m wrong, you’re going to have to back it up.

oh I have to back it up but you don’t?

you realize you sound like a spoiled little child now don’t you?

now I’m done =)

evilapprentice.6379:

The Boz.2038:

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

Unfortunately I could not find the article I was referring to. Oh well.

So, do you have any reason you disagree with me, or are you on the “Blind assertions are always right” bandwagon? Agree or disagree, I listed the reasons why I felt that way. If you want to assert that I’m wrong, you’re going to have to back it up.

Umm…
Well, see, the situation now is that thief weapon skills flat out ignore the part about chilled increasing cooldowns. The thread was made to change that, because the OP thinks this is OP. If you categorize statements such as “I think this is OP, it should be changed” as blind assertions, then yes, all we are making here are blind assertions, no matter how well be back them up with theorycraft.

The Boz.2038:

evilapprentice.6379:

The Boz.2038:

evilapprentice.6379:

Every post in this thread.

Wow, dude.
Wow.
Rarely do I see someone so consistently and persistently wrong.
Still waiting on that “the devs made it so with a reason” reference you mentioned earlier. I won’t hold my breath.

Unfortunately I could not find the article I was referring to. Oh well.

So, do you have any reason you disagree with me, or are you on the “Blind assertions are always right” bandwagon? Agree or disagree, I listed the reasons why I felt that way. If you want to assert that I’m wrong, you’re going to have to back it up.

Umm…
Well, see, the situation now is that thief weapon skills flat out ignore the part about chilled increasing cooldowns. The thread was made to change that, because the OP thinks this is OP. If you categorize statements such as “I think this is OP, it should be changed” as blind assertions, then yes, all we are making here are blind assertions, no matter how well be back them up with theorycraft.

You need to qualify why you think it’s OP – things are different class to class. I’ve offered my opinions (as have others) why they think chill affecting Initiative regen would be a bad idea. Your free to disagree, but if your counterargument is still “I just think it’s OP”, it doesn’t carry much weight.

Oh, nice attempt to obviate an entire page of discussion with “your side had no arguments”.
Go back to reading the arguments. We’ve made plenty.

Guys, lets avoid the personal attacks. Sorry the topic is so heated.

Any devs out there have an official word on whether chilled will ever affect thieves skills 1-5?

Again, I don’t want this to come out as NERF THIEF. I don’t think that needs to happen and all classes have strengths and weaknesses. I do, however, think that chilled should affect the 1-5 skills of all classes and am trying to have a healthy discussion between all classes to figure out the best way to do this

Thieves are not very good right now, as I agree Chill should effect initiative, I think that if it does the Initiative Recharge rate should be moved down from 1.33 to 1 or 0.8 per initiative with skills that lower it even more.

Daecollo, my post above is more thorough, but the reason chilled affecting ini regen rate would impact thieves more than other classes because it would target skills they have already used and effectively put them on cooldown, not just skills they use while under the effect of chilled.

evilapprentice.6379:

Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take…

LOL Are you really arguing stealth isn’t a defensive mechanic? You also neglected to mention the evades.

Also, skills you have already used are still affected by chill regardless of what class you are.

Sepreh.5924:

Guys, lets avoid the personal attacks. Sorry the topic is so heated.

Any devs out there have an official word on whether chilled will ever affect thieves skills 1-5?

Again, I don’t want this to come out as NERF THIEF. I don’t think that needs to happen and all classes have strengths and weaknesses. I do, however, think that chilled should affect the 1-5 skills of all classes and am trying to have a healthy discussion between all classes to figure out the best way to do this

I apologize for contributing to the silliness – while i disagree with you, I respect your opinion. Some others aren’t as deserving of that respect, but I shouldn’t have derailed the thread.

My argument remains the same however. Mobility and stealth are a thief’s primary defenses. The movement debuff on chill affects thief more than any other class because a reduction in mobility is a severe debuff to both offense, and defense, with no “special” way to counter it (IE, any class can cleanse the debuff, but a guardian can block through it, or an ele could mist form, etc). Even if a thief teleports away, there are plenty of classes that can follow or keep pounding on him at range (and he can’t escape, due to being chilled)

Any other class has other ways to deal with being chilled defensively – they can throw up protection, stability, regen. They can hit an immune skill or start blocking – chill doesn’t affect any of these the way it affects a thieves defenses.

In addition, as others have pointed out, slowing down the entire initiative bar punishes every skill on both weaponsets rather than skills individually like chill does for other classes – you can’t draw a direct comparison between the two.

As it stands, thieves are mid-tier atm at best in TPvP – while you might feel it would be “Fair” if chill affected their weaponskills in some way, its a power reduction on a class that already doesn’t really have a solid place in TPvP.

In addition, the game isn’t built on being “Fair” – some classes have higher base HP – some have great access to dodges – others have great access to block. It’s not fundamentally flawed if chill affects thieves differently. “Balanced” or “Fair” does not mean that every condition effects every class exactly the same way – just that every class is relatively close to each other in potential.

Navzar.2938:

evilapprentice.6379:

Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take…

LOL Are you really arguing stealth isn’t a defensive mechanic? You also neglected to mention the evades.

Also, skills you have already used are still affected by chill regardless of what class you are.

No, I am not arguing that. Please read my post in full before responding.
My claim was Stealth does not make you “Tanky”, and that’s 100% true. “Tanky” is not the same as “Defensive”. My further point was that Stealth isn’t a great counter to Chilled in particular because it’s very easy to track a thief moving at 33% speed, even in stealth.

In addition, I’ve mentioned evades a number of times – particularly because chilled reduces the evade-movement is my claim as to why chilled affects thieves defensive mechanics so heavily.

I meant evades as in the mechanic, not manual evading through movement and movement skills.

Hey evil, thanks for the well thought out reply. Just a couple points that came up in my head while I was reading it that I thought you could comment on. Again, don’t mean to be antagonistic but do really want to understand the issues and implications.

It seems like there are several issues with chilled affecting initiative:

1. Lack of ways to defensively deal with chilled – I can definitely see this to some degree but also have to think that thieves do have some defensive ability vs. chilled. Again, correct me if I am wrong but from my understanding there are several defenses. For example, withdraw is a heal, is on a 15s cooldown and will not only remove chilled but create distance. Shadowstep will remove chilled but is on a long cooldown. Shadows embrace must be traited for but can remove chilled as often as a thief can stealth. Additionally, as opposed to block or aegis, there are some builds that use evade which can have a similar effect to block or aegis. There are also blinds which do not prevent AOE chilled but are effective for single target chills. As far as chills actually hitting thieves, its the difference between AOE and single target. For example, I can see it very likely that the AOE chill of my chillbains or AOE chill of a engineer/ele will hit the thief. There are, however skills that require a target to hit, for example (I am using necro examples because that is what I main and know best) spinal shivers or dark path. For these, stealth serves as a defense as you cannot be targeted while in stealth.

2. Affecting the initiative bar affects two weapon sets more severely than other classes – I can see this being the case which is why I think that the effect on initiative should be tested and likely be something less than a 66% reduction on recharge. As a side note, it appears that elementalists may preferentially also have underlying reduced effect of chilled due to having 16 skills to use rather than 8. Same may be said for engineer swapping kits or necro going into deathshroud for more skills. I think the point is that they are all affected to some degree in their 1-5 skills by chilled

3. Thieves are not overpowered so why nerf them – I have not played enough to say if this is true but I tend to also think that they are not overpowered. As somewhat of a counter argument, however, chilled is not a condition that is going around like crazy, at least from what I can see, and it is unlikely that the change will affect most encounters out there.

Feel free to rip those points apart. I will appreciate either way as debate is the only way for me (and others I would guess) to understand the implications of any proposed change

Sepreh.5924:

Hey evil, thanks for the well thought out reply. Just a couple points that came up in my head while I was reading it that I thought you could comment on. Again, don’t mean to be antagonistic but do really want to understand the issues and implications.

It seems like there are several issues with chilled affecting initiative:

1. Lack of ways to defensively deal with chilled – I can definitely see this to some degree but also have to think that thieves do have some defensive ability vs. chilled. Again, correct me if I am wrong but from my understanding there are several defenses. For example, withdraw is a heal, is on a 15s cooldown and will not only remove chilled but create distance. Shadowstep will remove chilled but is on a long cooldown. Shadows embrace must be traited for but can remove chilled as often as a thief can stealth. Additionally, as opposed to block or aegis, there are some builds that use evade which can have a similar effect to block or aegis. There are also blinds which do not prevent AOE chilled but are effective for single target chills. As far as chills actually hitting thieves, its the difference between AOE and single target. For example, I can see it very likely that the AOE chill of my chillbains or AOE chill of a engineer/ele will hit the thief. There are, however skills that require a target to hit, for example (I am using necro examples because that is what I main and know best) spinal shivers or dark path. For these, stealth serves as a defense as you cannot be targeted while in stealth.

2. Affecting the initiative bar affects two weapon sets more severely than other classes – I can see this being the case which is why I think that the effect on initiative should be tested and likely be something less than a 66% reduction on recharge. As a side note, it appears that elementalists may preferentially also have underlying reduced effect of chilled due to having 16 skills to use rather than 8. Same may be said for engineer swapping kits or necro going into deathshroud for more skills. I think the point is that they are all affected to some degree in their 1-5 skills by chilled

3. Thieves are not overpowered so why nerf them – I have not played enough to say if this is true but I tend to also think that they are not overpowered. As somewhat of a counter argument, however, chilled is not a condition that is going around like crazy, at least from what I can see, and it is unlikely that the change will affect most encounters out there.

Feel free to rip those points apart. I will appreciate either way as debate is the only way for me (and others I would guess) to understand the implications of any proposed change

TBH, I’m more curious as why you feel chilled Has to affect initiative regen? As you pointed out, chilled can potentially be less effective/nearly useless on an Ele and maybe an engi due to their ability to run more than 2 weaponsets, and you don’t see that as unfair. IMO, it’s not as if thieves are regenerating Init crazy fast regardless of spec, and they need to be affected by chill to bring them into line.

Without specifically speccing for initiative regen, thieves already have pretty kittenty initiative regen. You’re seeing alot of thieves go 30 points into acro for Quick Pockets AND quick recovery because without them, our init pool regenerates at a pathetic rate. The only other options are to go crazy burst so we get a fantastic rate of Damage per Init spent, or to invest heavily in SA so we can use stealth to give us time to regen init (usually both of these combined, actually).

Dredlord.8076:

Jayce.5632:

Chill affecting initiative would essentially slow 4 weapon skills at once, instead of one skill at a time. I’m not a thief, but even I can see this would really hurt them. The real problem is the initiative system itself that enables thief’s to do what they do.

ok I can see how the auto attack spammers can relate to this argument because well nothing is on cooldown.

When I get hit by chill most of the time it is reducing the cooldown on more than 4 of my weapon skills.

I guess thieves don’t realize this because they have the luxury of staying in one weapon set all the time.

Perhaps I should have clarified that, barring any weapon swapping, chill only increases the CD of a weapon skill after its been used or is already recharging. This does not apply to thiefs because their skills do not have a recharge time. Their entire weapons bar uses only one recharge, by which if chill increased it, then it would be putting 4 skills on recharge reguardless if the thief used them or not.

Having chill increase the initiative recharge rate would hit thief’s too hard. If the idea is to get them to slow the attack rate of their weapons bar, it would have been better if people ask for chill to increase the initiative cost of the individual skills themselves by 20,25,or33%.

I’m sorry, I was not aware that quoting every single argument in a discussion was a requirement to participate in that discussion.

evilapprentice.6379:

As it stands, thieves are mid-tier atm at best in TPvP – while you might feel it would be “Fair” if chill affected their weaponskills in some way, its a power reduction on a class that already doesn’t really have a solid place in TPvP.

In addition, the game isn’t built on being “Fair” – some classes have higher base HP – some have great access to dodges – others have great access to block. It’s not fundamentally flawed if chill affects thieves differently. “Balanced” or “Fair” does not mean that every condition effects every class exactly the same way – just that every class is relatively close to each other in potential.

Well, I really get what you want to point out. Ofc you have to look at every class and its capabilites as a whole and in comparison to all the other things around BUT…

…any kind of ingame mechanic has to be consistent within the whole game. Like if you get hit you will gain some amount of damage calculated by the damage formula. You fall from a high cliff you die. You get affected by fear you will run away from the source of the fear in a straight line. And so on….

At the moment the chilled condition feels inconsistent to me due to the fact that the thief is not touched by the increased CD at all, whilst every other class is, in deed.

You said thief class would be affected by a lower initiative reg more than any other class with ‘traditional’ CDs but I think this is not the case if you look at the different weapon skill mechanics as balanced pools.

The thief w/o chilled condition has the potential of 100 (just an index). He can use his skills (x,y,z) and regenerate initiative afterwards and use his skills (x,y,z) again. Every other class not affected by chilled has the potential of 100 as well. They can use theier skills. Wait for the cooldowns and use their skills again. So far so good. But now chilled comes in. The thief stays at his potential of 100. He has NO drawback by this condition (but the decreased movement) due to the fact that he uses initative as his potential pool. Every other class gets the drawback of either waiting for chilled to run out and do nothing or to use a skill within the duration of chilled and have a higher CD afterwards. So if you would have used all your skills while chilled all of your CDs would be 66% longer. Your ‘potential’ would drop by 66%.

Now lets assume we add something to chilled for thiefs like ‘Initative regeneration drops by 66%’. The thief could still use all the skills he would have used before (x,y,z) but he would have to wait 66% longer afterwards to use the same skills again as long as he is chilled. But since not every thief skill has high initiative costs he could still use some of his skills (maybe only z) without having to wait much longer. So this change would only affect the burst potential (skill x and y with higher initiative costs) of the thief within a short timeframe. I guess this is something many people complain about when dealing with thiefs: very high and repeating burst potential.

This is not a matter of fairness. It’s a matter of consistency. The mechanic of the thiefs weapon skills is different from every other class. (Initiativ vs Cooldowns.) Right now chilled seems not to be ‘aware’ of that there is one class which doesnt have cooldowns. In my opinion there has to be SOME kind of drawback for the thief class as well besides the snare. It would just be consistent.

P.S. Excuse me for the bad english in advance.

I’ll have to remind people here that a thief can use at best 4 skills before he’s out of initiative (cheapest skill costs 3, init bar =12), other classes can use 8 by using a weapon swap.

Reducing the thief initiative regen is aking or chill preventing others from weapon swaping/atunement swap/kit swap.

Xari.1086:

…any kind of ingame mechanic has to be consistent within the whole game. Like if you get hit you will gain some amount of damage calculated by the damage formula. You fall from a high cliff you die. You get affected by fear you will run away from the source of the fear in a straight line. And so on….

But it’s already inconsistent – Ele’s and Engi’s have the potential to completely ignore chill’s CD increase due to their ability to have more than 2 weaponsets. Yes, they are affected by chill in the same manner, but it doesn’t mean as much when you have enough “weaponsets” to cycle through that your not affected by the slowdown at all.

I disagree that all things have to affect everyone exactly the same. The difference in base HP is also a big counter to this argument – conditions are much more dangerous for classes with a low base HP pool; should their base damage be calculated based on base HP? That would be “fair”, but I don’t think it should happen because that’s not how the game was designed.

So your argument now is “using situationally unfit skills randomly while the skills you actually want are on a long cooldown is a counter to chill”?

The Boz.2038:

I’m sorry, I was not aware that quoting every single argument in a discussion was a requirement to participate in that discussion.

I’m sorry that you don’t like that I’m pointing out that you haven’t actually contributed to the discussion (evidenced by the posts someone keeps reporting, even though I’m not being rude to you) – all I’ve asked you to do is clarify your position. “I agree with everyone else” doesn’t help because I feel I’ve offered counterarguments to their opinions. If you want to discuss, then discuss.

The Boz.2038:

So your argument now is “using situationally unfit skills randomly while the skills you actually want are on a long cooldown is a counter to chill”?

What are you talking about?