Guild Wars 2

It has been almost 4 months since the release of the game. And here is my list of concerns I still see or have recently been a problem or a persisting problem with guild wars 2. Here they are in no current order that “I” think should be changed in some way. I will also give my opinion on the change I think they should take in general. Here they are in no particular order.

1- Stealth render glitch- Everyone is probably fully aware of the stealth rendering glitch in guild wars 2. Thieves and Mesmer’s being the most problematic. Having this problem with more than one class can really effect 1v1 or team fight, and a team fight could cost you the game. And having this problem on more than one class makes the SPvP feel unrewarding knowing there isn’t much you can do other than playing very defensively to try and counter.

2- Target system while in stealth- One of my main examples of this is say a Mesmer or anything for that matter is about to cast’s a channel’d spell on you before you enter stealth. When you enter stealth that channel should cease to work. Period. There really isn’t any reason why it should auto lock on you, thus defeating the purpose of stealth entirely. Therefore my suggestion should be that if someone is hitting you with a channeled spell it should automatically cease to target that player if he enter’s stealth.

3- Heartseeker- Heartseeker has probably been one of the most talked about abilities on the forums for several reasons. The target system is pretty laughable when it comes to what you get by simply pressing one button and nothing else. If you have a player targeted, you have to do no more than press the skill, nothing more, nothing less. With one button you leap to your target, you do damage, and regardless of where your opponent moves you follow. that many mechanics with one button is a laughing stock at best when you figure what you get for it.
Possible fix suggestions for heart seeker.

— For every heartseeker the player would have to use ground targeting every time they used heartseeker. This way there would no damage nerf, and yet you would actually have to think a little bit in order to connect it other than to simply target someone, run to them and spam 2. I’m sure alout of people would complain that you couldn’t ground target as fast because you have to hit the ability, aim it, then he does it. One might even suggest a damage buff in compensation to having to ground target. Because that way if you hit the ability, then you should be rewarded for it.

— Another possible fix even though it wouldn’t be as good as the first in my opinion is to literally raise the cost of initiative of heartseeker, so It cannot be spammed. Although it would still be a mindless ability in my eyes, but atleast players would not be able to cheese it out like before.
Although this is not the entire list of what I think needs some fixing but yeah let me know what you guys think.

-Countless-

When using Heartseeker I only land my hits 50% of the time when I’m standing right next to my targets, and I’m NOT joking.

HS spam only seems bad because its spam-able due to initiative.

For example, i’m a warrior and i use sword/shield so my sword 2 skill is fundamentally the same as hs (gap closer to target + damage). It has more gap range and way less damage, but its functionally the same. The difference? i can’t cast it 3-4 times in a row.

The initiative resource system, while unique and interesting for the thief class, just dumbs down the class really, since you are always gonna choose to use all your initiative on the most cost effective skill (for bs theives, this ends up being hs, for a d/d condition thief, this will be death blossum) and only use that skill to the exclusion of every other skill. So lets say for example, they nerfed HS into the ground. Something else (maybe CnD) would just end up replacing it, and thieves would spam that instead. This is the downside to the initiative system; theres no real cost-benefit – just choose whatever the best skill is, and spam it.

Recently.1043:

HS spam only seems bad because its spam-able due to initiative.

For example, i’m a warrior and i use sword/shield so my sword 2 skill is fundamentally the same as hs (gap closer to target + damage). It has more gap range and way less damage, but its functionally the same. The difference? i can’t cast it 3-4 times in a row.

The initiative resource system, while unique and interesting for the thief class, just dumbs down the class really, since you are always gonna choose to use all your initiative on the most cost effective skill (for bs theives, this ends up being hs, for a d/d condition thief, this will be death blossum) and only use that skill to the exclusion of every other skill. So lets say for example, they nerfed HS into the ground. Something else (maybe CnD) would just end up replacing it, and thieves would spam that instead. This is the downside to the initiative system; theres no real cost-benefit – just choose whatever the best skill is, and spam it.

I doubt they’d spam CnD. Skill costs half thier base initiative pool, it’s damage was nerfed significantly, it has melee range and they can only use it every 3-5 seconds depending it they attack. HS, is pretty much the only skill like HS. Probably see more condition Thieves with DB if HS was ubernerfed.
I’d also like to call foul on the point about init making thieves only use one skill. I play S/D and none of my skills particularly stand above the rest in damage, so I mainly auto attack and use the other skills as needed.

2. I think it would make sense for channeled and incoming ranged attacks to disjoint after stealth. From my experience with the Elementalist’s arc lighting skill however ANet seems to have trouble with channeling skills and targets that are no longer targetable (dead or invis) so it might be a technical issue that prevents them from implementing this. For now treat it as a counter to slealth, lol…

3. IMO, the thief profession simply needs to be redone. Conceptually and mechanically its cheesy profession that adds little to PvP interactions. That’s not to say that they’re hard to beat, but they’re simply not very interesting or fun to fight against.

The real problem is initiative and how it promotes spamming of key skills. Whether intended by the user or the fault of the stupid skill queue system, it’s become a spam mehcanic. In multiplayer games these spam mechanics. especially those that work absurdly well, tend to leave those on the receiving end frustrated and dissatisfied with the experience and prevent the ones using them from becoming more experienced with more complex tactics. Why ANet let this pass is beyond me.

Additionally Heartseeking is tied with deathblossom, a skill that also moves you uncontrollably, as one of the most functionally broken thief skills. If not the entire profession, those two skills need to be redone.

Recently.1043:

HS spam only seems bad because its spam-able due to initiative.

For example, i’m a warrior and i use sword/shield so my sword 2 skill is fundamentally the same as hs (gap closer to target + damage). It has more gap range and way less damage, but its functionally the same. The difference? i can’t cast it 3-4 times in a row.

The initiative resource system, while unique and interesting for the thief class, just dumbs down the class really, since you are always gonna choose to use all your initiative on the most cost effective skill (for bs theives, this ends up being hs, for a d/d condition thief, this will be death blossum) and only use that skill to the exclusion of every other skill. So lets say for example, they nerfed HS into the ground. Something else (maybe CnD) would just end up replacing it, and thieves would spam that instead. This is the downside to the initiative system; theres no real cost-benefit – just choose whatever the best skill is, and spam it.

If you look at D/D direct damage, its not even a cost effectiveness ratio – there’s no other skill in the weaponset that does a good amount of damage immediately (CnD->Backstab requires positioning and timing, something you may not have). If your low and I’m afraid you might hit your heal soon, its spam HS or let you heal.

Also, you can’t compare Warrior Sword 2 to Thief Dagger 2 without acknowledging the other differences in the classes. In a fight where both you and a thief are equipped exactly the same (same runes, same sigils, same stat boosts from traits), your warrior has 8k more HP and more total armor. If the thief can’t deal damage a bit faster than you over a limited time (Not higher DPS over an extended period, just higher burst), he’d have to play nigh perfectly to win the fight.

I think you are missing the point i was making. I wasn’t implying that HS is broken or OP or anything of the sort. I was saying due to the way the initiative system works, you are essentially forced to spam 1 ability (in this case hs) for maximum efficiency.

Its makes playing the class somewhat overly simple: there really are no “decisions” to make like other classes that are limited by cooldowns (and have to decide "do i use this ability now, or do i use it later) The right decision is almost always just to use the ability now, and the ability that is the strongest (hs). It creates a lot less variability in the attack pattern (which can be good or bad depending on how you see it) Just like most of the sPvP population, i have a thief alt too, and find it somewhat repetitive once you get past the giggle factor of destroying noobs. At least for d/d bs that is (which is why i play condition thief now even if its not as optimal, at least it requires a bit more thinking heh)

TwoBit.5903:

2. I think it would make sense for channeled and incoming ranged attacks to disjoint after stealth. From my experience with the Elementalist’s arc lighting skill however ANet seems to have trouble with channeling skills and targets that are no longer targetable (dead or invis) so it might be a technical issue that prevents them from implementing this. For now treat it as a counter to slealth, lol…

3. IMO, the thief profession simply needs to be redone. Conceptually and mechanically its cheesy profession that adds little to PvP interactions. That’s not to say that they’re hard to beat, but they’re simply not very interesting or fun to fight against.

The real problem is initiative and how it promotes spamming of key skills. Whether intended by the user or the fault of the stupid skill queue system, it’s become a spam mehcanic. In multiplayer games these spam mechanics. especially those that work absurdly well, tend to leave those on the receiving end frustrated and dissatisfied with the experience and prevent the ones using them from becoming more experienced with more complex tactics. Why ANet let this pass is beyond me.

Additionally Heartseeking is tied with deathblossom, a skill that also moves you uncontrollably, as one of the most functionally broken thief skills. If not the entire profession, those two skills need to be redone.

Not to mention the evades tied to these techniques

No fix to current thieves, no. Because only a little weak build for thieves was p/p… so just buff it and make all builds OP =)
yawn, nothing to see in this patch then… see you in january and what happens then! ’til then, enjoy 90% teams thieves… heartseeker pros, backstab pros, pistol whip pros, condition pros… I dont know what p/p signum is but embrace that as well. So… 17 of january something else might happen then?

Looking at the “Class Balance Philosophy” post I have to wonder if anet is playing the same game the rest of us.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Looking at the “Class Balance Philosophy” post I have to wonder if anet is playing the same game the rest of us.

One of the first thing I noticed

I have played a thief, ranger, guardian, and ele and i must say i don’t believe thieves to be OP. When i play as a thief i can get absolutely murdered in a 1-2 hits. For example, if i use all of my stealth skills fighting a ranger and i get him/her down when i go to make the stop (even with full health) the rangers pet can kill me with 2-3 bites. Shield warriors can block my burst and then i am left with running away and trying to get more initiative or attempting to kill the high damage high health warrior with almost no initiative and half my utilities down.

When playing sPVP if you want to get any kills with the thief d/d burst you cannot be near groups because AOE’s aimed anywhere near you can absolutely destroy you. I have to wander around by myself trying to flank lone players. (Although the short bow is spectacular for group fights and i end up getting most of my kills from cluster bomb and the auto attack)

Trigr.6481:

1- Stealth render glitch-
2- Target system while in stealth-
3- Heartseeker- -

I agree with 1 and 2. 3 doesn’t make much sense. No good thief spams heartseeker. You should be happy if a thief does that to you. It means they are wasting their initiative.

Now on the other hand, if you are dying to some nooby heartseeker spammer, you really need to work on your play style. There is no stun with heartseeker. It is easy enough to avoid.

style.6173:

Trigr.6481:

1- Stealth render glitch-
2- Target system while in stealth-
3- Heartseeker- -

I agree with 1 and 2. 3 doesn’t make much sense. No good thief spams heartseeker. You should be happy if a thief does that to you. It means they are wasting their initiative.

Now on the other hand, if you are dying to some nooby heartseeker spammer, you really need to work on your play style. There is no stun with heartseeker. It is easy enough to avoid.

No I’m not dying to heartseeker. My point is what you get from one spammable ability compared to others, it should be a concern.

I’ll just go ahead and say it.

Anet needs to start accepting applications for new people to head up their Balance team. The team they have now is completely detached from half the classes. They have consistently over buffed the same classes over and over since the middle of beta and show no signs of doing anything else in the near or far future. They are clearly bias towards the characters they like to play the most and without cleaning house and putting people in charge without a specific bias or balancing that bias with passionate players from EVERY class, nothing will ever change.

The exact same issue happened with EQ2 and SoE. The lead class dev that was in charge of final decisions played a Rogue and was a very active and competitive Rogue player. From launch day up until the day he was moved to another project (after TSO… so pretty much the duration of the game’s commercial success), Rogue was the most powerful DPS in the game, AND received the most kills in all PvP content available (including duels) We even got to see the metric from SoE proving it.

Bias well always destroy any chance or proper class balance if you do not accommodate your development philosophy and team make-up for controlling it.

I am willing to put a money on matching the Class Balance Team and their main characters against all buff/nerf decisions made since beta and it will show a pattern that will prove my assertions beyond a shadow of doubt.

The HS change to GTAoE would change nothing.
One can keep the cursor where the opponent is and then still spam it.

I don’t see HS as a problem considering its unimpressive damage above 5% health.
If a Thief managed to get you below 25% that means he connected his stuff without you blowing any anti-burst CD or dodging during the whole – which means you fully deserved the death screen.

Red Falcon.8257:

I don’t see HS as a problem considering its unimpressive damage above 5% health.
If a Thief managed to get you below 25% that means he connected his stuff without you blowing any anti-burst CD or dodging during the whole – which means you fully deserved the death screen.

Your argument would be valid if all PvP encounters were 1v1.However they aren’t,why would you start a fight with a Thief anyway,just wait until it is time to finish it.

By the time you realise a Thief has shadowstepped into the fight and you will be dead in 3 seconds,it is normally too late.Except for classes that can quickly pop vulnerability and teleport.Doing big damage and being a gap closer at the same time without a CD it’s simply bad design IMO.And i’m not saying it’s OP,because it’s not.It’s designed with PvE in mind and that shows,like many many others (*cough Mesmer *cough).

kittenon.8572:

Red Falcon.8257:

I don’t see HS as a problem considering its unimpressive damage above 5% health.
If a Thief managed to get you below 25% that means he connected his stuff without you blowing any anti-burst CD or dodging during the whole – which means you fully deserved the death screen.

Your argument would be valid if all PvP encounters were 1v1.However they aren’t,why would you start a fight with a Thief anyway,just wait until it is time to finish it.

By the time you realise a Thief has shadowstepped into the fight and you will be dead in 3 seconds,it is normally too late.Except for classes that can quickly pop vulnerability and teleport.Doing big damage and being a gap closer at the same time without a CD it’s simply bad design IMO.And i’m not saying it’s OP,because it’s not.It’s designed with PvE in mind and that shows,like many many others (*cough Mesmer *cough).

Yeah something has to be done about Thief Leaps. They should probably target the ground at the feet of the target so they can’t just teleport leap over and over to a moving target and stab for up to 10k with secondary skills like Heartseeker.

I can guarantee with absolute certainty that if you go back and ask all the players who quit playing GW2 pvp the #1 reason 90% of them quit was Heartseeker spam. I understand the need for melee gap closers… but a gap closer with no cooldown that can’t miss even if the target is in motion… Especially one that can hit for 10k…

There is just no identifiable forethought in that decision. Other than the Lead Balance Dev plays Thief.

Heartseeker is just a very very strong finisher. However, while “heartseeking”, they are very fragile and vulnerable (No dodge, no stealth, no evade). They can easily get dazed and get oneshotted by the team. And quishy thieves die extremely easy (No good defensive cooldowns, 12k hp, no toughness).

In 1v1 heartseeker is very strong, if you don’t dodge or use defensive cooldowns when you’re under 50% HP, you will die. However, heartseeker is incredible easy to dodge or to evade. Also a dodge usually evades two heartseeker if you time it right (right before the heartseeker lands).

Teabaker.9524:

Heartseeker is just a very very strong finisher. However, while “heartseeking”, they are very fragile and vulnerable (No dodge, no stealth, no evade). They can easily get dazed and get oneshotted by the team. And quishy thieves die extremely easy (No good defensive cooldowns, 12k hp, no toughness).

In 1v1 heartseeker is very strong, if you don’t dodge or use defensive cooldowns when you’re under 50% HP, you will die. However, heartseeker is incredible easy to dodge or to evade. Also a dodge usually evades two heartseeker if you time it right (right before the heartseeker lands).

You don’t get it and don’t want to. Heartseeker is not used like that in practice. Heartseeker is spammed as a means to drain health bars completely, not as the intended finisher. And when you can use a skill 3 times with zero cooldown (up to 5 times with traits) that hits for 5k to 10k damage on each hit, while the target is running, and from range, with zero chance to miss, you create a problem.

And heartseeker is the hardest skill to dodge of any other skill because you might dodge once but here comes 2 to 4 more Heartseekers, and with quickness they come so fast that you cannot not even dodge again before all of them hit you.

It is stupid, it is broken, and EVERYONE hates it. Even thieves talk kitten about other thieves that Heartseeker spam because it is literally an IWIN BUTTON.

There is no valid argument to the contrary. The number one complaint I see in PvP is Heartseeker spam. Period. It is stupid OP to allow a single skill with no cooldown to spam damage greater that the highest hitpoint tank build possible.

Even if the skill was a 3 tier skill that ended in a 3rd step finisher that did WAY more damage… it would be preferable to all parties involved to this nonsense that is Heartseeker spam. It is just plain stupid and EVERYONE hates it except thieves that use it. Period.

.. Heartseeker deals like 2k damage to squishies with full HP? Doesn’t autoattack deal more?

EDIT: I can’t even reliable kill the NPCS in heart of the mists with heartseeker-spam. Yea, it kills noobs and newbies. But if you start to balance around that the whole games goes down.

Teabaker.9524:

.. Heartseeker deals like 2k damage to squishies with full HP?

Tell that to the 9k, 5k, 6k Heartseeker chain thieves with Heartseeker on Auto attack that don’t even bother with backstab because it is faster to heartseeker spam without stealthing.

Or my combat log. You and it can have a discussion about how 2k does or does not equal 9643.

Dude, i just tried to spam HS against squishies. Against a squishy warrior with under 50% HP I made 3x crits for about 4.8k. Against a squishy ranger at 100% HP I did 2x crits(!!) for about 1.9k damage.

So please. No idea how the hell you get those numbers. Also all of those were with the Assassin’s Signet.

EDIT: Against a necro with a toughness-amulet: 1100, 2.5k (crit), 1.2k. I didn’t had ONE guy who died to my heartseeker-spam in the whole game.

Full squishy warrior 100% HP: 3k, 2.8k, 1.4k, 2.6k

EDIT2: First person who died to my HS spam. He didn’t dodge once. He died again, he again hasn’t dodged once.

Want more numbers? Seriously, heartseeker strike isn’t overpowered at all. Squishy thief actaully needs a buff in serious PvP.

XiL.4318:

You don’t get it and don’t want to. Heartseeker is not used like that in practice. Heartseeker is spammed as a means to drain health bars completely, not as the intended finisher. And when you can use a skill 3 times with zero cooldown (up to 5 times with traits) that hits for 5k to 10k damage on each hit, while the target is running, and from range, with zero chance to miss, you create a problem.

And heartseeker is the hardest skill to dodge of any other skill because you might dodge once but here comes 2 to 4 more Heartseekers, and with quickness they come so fast that you cannot not even dodge again before all of them hit you.

It is stupid, it is broken, and EVERYONE hates it. Even thieves talk kitten about other thieves that Heartseeker spam because it is literally an IWIN BUTTON.

There is no valid argument to the contrary. The number one complaint I see in PvP is Heartseeker spam. Period. It is stupid OP to allow a single skill with no cooldown to spam damage greater that the highest hitpoint tank build possible.

Even if the skill was a 3 tier skill that ended in a 3rd step finisher that did WAY more damage… it would be preferable to all parties involved to this nonsense that is Heartseeker spam. It is just plain stupid and EVERYONE hates it except thieves that use it. Period.

Get your WvW numbers out of this sub-forum. Even on my valkyrie ele with d/d or s/d don’t get hit close to his numbers on full hp targets. Low hp? Yeah you’ll get smacked with 5k against glass thieves.

It could probably due with an additional ini point(4 points instead of 3), but its hardly as mind-blowingly effective as you guys make it out to be. Any thief that spams heartseeker, or misses his backstab is at a serious disadvantage in a fight.

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

I feel you don’t have a good idea what most Thief skill set have to offer. Most CD builds can have situational skills but they generally also lend themselves well to Rotations to sustain DPS. Thief skills on the other had are usually highly specialized to their function. Like on D/D, you generally won’t go HS to DB to CnD or DD to DB, because it isn’t an efficient use of Initiative. To put things in perspective, Thieves have 12 initiative as a base, and 15 if they take 15 point in Trickery. HS costs 3 points, DD costs 4, DB cost 5 and CnD costs 6. DB generally only shines for condition damage on condition builds, DD is an aoe cripple and it doesn’t really have high damage anymore, same story for CnD so it’s just a tool to stealth. Which leaves HS, the lowest cost damage skill in all of Thief’s arsenal, it’s a gap closer, it’s a leap finisher and is has a mechanic that buffs damage when the target is low on health. It’s amazing for direct damage thieves that want to maximize their burst, and it can be used to gain ground in a pinch.
Now for another less popular set S/D. Sword deals less damage to single targets then daggers, but get an AE sweep as a trade off. None of this set’s skills have particularly high damage. It’s skills are Infiltrator’s Strike, which is essentially a scaled down version of Shadowstep, resulting in an ideal way to step in and out of combat quickly (costs 3 init in and 2 init out). Flanking Strike, which is the closest thing S/D has to a damage role skill, makes the user slide around the target to attack with 2 strikes, the first being unblockable and strips boon, and the second being an average damage strike, however Flanking Strike suffers from very poor tracking. FS costs 4 init. The last skills are DD and CnD again. As a result of S/D’s skills set, S/D user’s generally don’t spam anything except maybe FS to little effect. More commonly they rely on auto attack or the daze on Tactical Strike (their stealth skill). So in contrast to D/D, S/D doesn’t have a good dps skills so they don’t spam much of anything going more for a use skills as needed approach.

Disagree with point 2. it may make sense, but given the game mechanics, it would never be possible to hit a thief with anything channeled if this didn’t happen exactly the way it does.

Dual.8953:

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

I feel you don’t have a good idea what most Thief skill set have to offer. Most CD builds can have situational skills but they generally also lend themselves well to Rotations to sustain DPS. Thief skills on the other had are usually highly specialized to their function. Like on D/D, you generally won’t go HS to DB to CnD or DD to DB, because it isn’t an efficient use of Initiative. To put things in perspective, Thieves have 12 initiative as a base, and 15 if they take 15 point in Trickery. HS costs 3 points, DD costs 4, DB cost 5 and CnD costs 6. DB generally only shines for condition damage on condition builds, DD is an aoe cripple and it doesn’t really have high damage anymore, same story for CnD so it’s just a tool to stealth. Which leaves HS, the lowest cost damage skill in all of Thief’s arsenal, it’s a gap closer, it’s a leap finisher and is has a mechanic that buffs damage when the target is low on health. It’s amazing for direct damage thieves that want to maximize their burst, and it can be used to gain ground in a pinch.
Now for another less popular set S/D. Sword deals less damage to single targets then daggers, but get an AE sweep as a trade off. None of this set’s skills have particularly high damage. It’s skills are Infiltrator’s Strike, which is essentially a scaled down version of Shadowstep, resulting in an ideal way to step in and out of combat quickly (costs 3 init in and 2 init out). Flanking Strike, which is the closest thing S/D has to a damage role skill, makes the user slide around the target to attack with 2 strikes, the first being unblockable and strips boon, and the second being an average damage strike, however Flanking Strike suffers from very poor tracking. FS costs 4 init. The last skills are DD and CnD again. As a result of S/D’s skills set, S/D user’s generally don’t spam anything except maybe FS to little effect. More commonly they rely on auto attack or the daze on Tactical Strike (their stealth skill). So in contrast to D/D, S/D doesn’t have a good dps skills so they don’t spam much of anything going more for a use skills as needed approach.

I wasn’t saying why thieves spam. I was just replying to many of the posts that claim: “HS gives the most dmg for the least resource, (time and initiative) so we’re ‘forced’ to spam it”. I was saying their justification for spamming skills isn’t a real justification when you really look at. If what they where saying really was the case after all, it still wouldn’t be justification, broken and shoddy class design would be.

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

you should try to fail just one CnD, or be forced to fight after 2 infiltrator’s arrows to feel the weakness of initiative system.
then try to avoid any other class’s skill and you will see the difference.

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Dual.8953:

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

I feel you don’t have a good idea what most Thief skill set have to offer. Most CD builds can have situational skills but they generally also lend themselves well to Rotations to sustain DPS. Thief skills on the other had are usually highly specialized to their function. Like on D/D, you generally won’t go HS to DB to CnD or DD to DB, because it isn’t an efficient use of Initiative. To put things in perspective, Thieves have 12 initiative as a base, and 15 if they take 15 point in Trickery. HS costs 3 points, DD costs 4, DB cost 5 and CnD costs 6. DB generally only shines for condition damage on condition builds, DD is an aoe cripple and it doesn’t really have high damage anymore, same story for CnD so it’s just a tool to stealth. Which leaves HS, the lowest cost damage skill in all of Thief’s arsenal, it’s a gap closer, it’s a leap finisher and is has a mechanic that buffs damage when the target is low on health. It’s amazing for direct damage thieves that want to maximize their burst, and it can be used to gain ground in a pinch.
Now for another less popular set S/D. Sword deals less damage to single targets then daggers, but get an AE sweep as a trade off. None of this set’s skills have particularly high damage. It’s skills are Infiltrator’s Strike, which is essentially a scaled down version of Shadowstep, resulting in an ideal way to step in and out of combat quickly (costs 3 init in and 2 init out). Flanking Strike, which is the closest thing S/D has to a damage role skill, makes the user slide around the target to attack with 2 strikes, the first being unblockable and strips boon, and the second being an average damage strike, however Flanking Strike suffers from very poor tracking. FS costs 4 init. The last skills are DD and CnD again. As a result of S/D’s skills set, S/D user’s generally don’t spam anything except maybe FS to little effect. More commonly they rely on auto attack or the daze on Tactical Strike (their stealth skill). So in contrast to D/D, S/D doesn’t have a good dps skills so they don’t spam much of anything going more for a use skills as needed approach.

I wasn’t saying why thieves spam. I was just replying to many of the posts that claim: “HS gives the most dmg for the least resource, (time and initiative) so we’re ‘forced’ to spam it”. I was saying their justification for spamming skills isn’t a real justification when you really look at. If what they where saying really was the case after all, it still wouldn’t be justification, broken and shoddy class design would be.

If a direct damage D/D thief wants to maximize their dps or burst their only option is heartseeker. None of their other skills come close to it in this situation. So true D/D thieves aren’t forced to use heartseeker, just as Rifle warriors aren’t forced to used Killshot, and D/D eles aren’t forced to use their multitude of combo fields and boons, but if they aren’t, they’re holding back.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Disagree with point 2. it may make sense, but given the game mechanics, it would never be possible to hit a thief with anything channeled if this didn’t happen exactly the way it does.

So your supporting why the game should be holding your hand , great. You see I actually like to play the game, I’d rather not have the game play itself for me. If that’s the case I might as well go watch a movie because that is something I know I’m not involved in whatsoever. As long as any game continues to do hold your hand, and reward you for things you should not be rewarded for. Then it will never reach it’s potential to be a great game.

Trigr.6481:

So your supporting why the game should be holding your hand , great. You see I actually like to play the game, I’d rather not have the game play itself for me. If that’s the case I might as well go watch a movie because that is something I know I’m not involved in whatsoever. As long as any game continues to do hold your hand, and reward you for things you should not be rewarded for. Then it will never reach it’s potential to be a great game.

Talking about hand holding….
Defending/supporting stealth mechanics….

The irony amazes

If a direct damage D/D thief wants to maximize their dps or burst their only option is heartseeker. None of their other skills come close to it in this situation. So true D/D thieves aren’t forced to use heartseeker, just as Rifle warriors aren’t forced to used Killshot, and D/D eles aren’t forced to use their multitude of combo fields and boons, but if they aren’t, they’re holding back.[/quote]

You’re saying the same thing I am. It’s not the initiative resource system that is at fault, but the spec design. Also for the record, combo fields are more situational and not spamable same goes for kill shot. This being said about poor design leading to HS spam, if you look at what those spec’s are designed for, giving some people what they want in a solution just isn’t going to work. A spec that is designed for massive spike burst damage shouldn’t have the option of great sustained damage as well, meaning if you miss some of your kitten, you pay for it. That doesn’t however mean a spec should be relegated to spamming one ability because none of the others give you any sort of bang for the buck. This is where ability synergy comes into play as just one of the mechanics of class design to help avoid being pigeonholed into spamming as your only super viable option.

Point still stands tho, initiative is not to blame, people need to stop using it as an excuse. It’s poor class design. Lots of examples of similar type things to a limited-ish initiative resource system that accomplish the same things as these thief builds while maintaining their play diversity and not resorting to mindless spamming. Hell, even league of legends has examples. Some characters use an energy system. 100-200 energy where each ability uses about the same ratio of resource as an initiative ability, those characters have even fewer abilities in league of legends – and yet – no spamming. Class and spec design.

Trigr.6481:

Clark Skinner.4902:

Disagree with point 2. it may make sense, but given the game mechanics, it would never be possible to hit a thief with anything channeled if this didn’t happen exactly the way it does.

So your supporting why the game should be holding your hand , great. You see I actually like to play the game, I’d rather not have the game play itself for me. If that’s the case I might as well go watch a movie because that is something I know I’m not involved in whatsoever. As long as any game continues to do hold your hand, and reward you for things you should not be rewarded for. Then it will never reach it’s potential to be a great game.

Well that was condescending. Did you make the topic for discussion or to hate on people who disagree with you? If the second, it’s against the rules and should be deleted. If the first, then you should be glad to hear the experience of others.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Trigr.6481:

Clark Skinner.4902:

Disagree with point 2. it may make sense, but given the game mechanics, it would never be possible to hit a thief with anything channeled if this didn’t happen exactly the way it does.

So your supporting why the game should be holding your hand , great. You see I actually like to play the game, I’d rather not have the game play itself for me. If that’s the case I might as well go watch a movie because that is something I know I’m not involved in whatsoever. As long as any game continues to do hold your hand, and reward you for things you should not be rewarded for. Then it will never reach it’s potential to be a great game.

Well that was condescending. Did you make the topic for discussion or to hate on people who disagree with you? If the second, it’s against the rules and should be deleted. If the first, then you should be glad to hear the experience of others.

I’m all about constructive criticism, however his post did not offer any solution to what he is stating. In my original post I stated the problems and gave solutions to said problem. If your not going to be part of the solution then your part of the problem. But back to the topic at hand. I don’t know about you but if someone goes into stealth during a channeled cast then you should fail to hit your remaining channel, it’s pretty much common sense. It’s unfair to both parties, the ones that gain to the ones that don’t. In this situation the roles should be reversed.

Trigr.6481:

It’s unfair to both parties, the ones that gain to the ones that don’t. In this situation the roles should be reversed.

You’re kidding right? Stealth in general, at it’s core even as a mechanical concept, is already a hand holding idiot button that promotes unfairness. If someone hit you with a channeled ability you shouldn’t just get to cancel it because you hit your “whoops” button that you hit every 3 seconds anyways.

Braxxus.2904:

Trigr.6481:

It’s unfair to both parties, the ones that gain to the ones that don’t. In this situation the roles should be reversed.

You’re kidding right? Stealth in general, at it’s core even as a mechanical concept, is already a hand holding idiot button that promotes unfairness. If someone hit you with a channeled ability you shouldn’t just get to cancel it because you hit your “whoops” button that you hit every 3 seconds anyways.

Braxxus, please enlighten me on which stealth ability is on a 3 second cooldown But let me try to explain this to you Braxxus please take notes. So you click on a guy, you cast a channeled ability. That channeled ability will automatically follow and hit them if they are within range, correct? So say in the middle of that, they go stealth… If you cannot see a person “at range” then why would your channeled ability still magically be following them and be hitting them? You should not be hitting something with a channeled spell if you literally cant see them. That should be a no-brainer.

Trigr.6481:

Braxxus, please enlighten me on which stealth ability is on a 3 second cooldown

You’re kidding right? Thieves don’t have cooldowns and CnD is available as soon as the revealed debuff wears off every time.

This is like ‘thief 101’ dude. There’s a number of ways thieves are able to use the culling issues in wvw to basically live in perma stealth while attacking.

For the same reason a giant flaming spike of rock shouldn’t float over a person’s head for 2 seconds pointlessly when it doesn’t help the ele by leaving it there. Also for the same reason said flaming spike of rock does no damage when it crashes on the enemy’s head if the ele dodges during that 3s.

If things worked as realistically as you asked, stealth wouldn’t be fully invisible, it would be hiding in plain sight. We’d still see footprints, sounds, the look of someone CCed in stealth who can’t control their appearance, we’d see water that is coating them when splashed with water, or dust, or smoke when burning. We’d also be able to target everything where we want it instead of where the skill feels like targetting. We’d also be able to start channeling before a thief became visible again and unleash as soon as we see it.

So you see, being able to channel and connect if the thief goes into stealth partway though, despite being unrealistic, makes up for these other ways that we are unable to damage a thief where we should be able to realistically.

Clark Skinner.4902:

For the same reason a giant flaming spike of rock shouldn’t float over a person’s head for 2 seconds pointlessly when it doesn’t help the ele by leaving it there. Also for the same reason said flaming spike of rock does no damage when it crashes on the enemy’s head if the ele dodges during that 3s.

If things worked as realistically as you asked, stealth wouldn’t be fully invisible, it would be hiding in plain sight. We’d still see footprints, sounds, the look of someone CCed in stealth who can’t control their appearance, we’d see water that is coating them when splashed with water, or dust, or smoke when burning. We’d also be able to target everything where we want it instead of where the skill feels like targetting. We’d also be able to start channeling before a thief became visible again and unleash as soon as we see it.

So you see, being able to channel and connect if the thief goes into stealth partway though, despite being unrealistic, makes up for these other ways that we are unable to damage a thief where we should be able to realistically.

“If things worked as realistically as you asked, stealth wouldn’t be fully invisible, it would be hiding in plain sight.”

^^ In response to this I would say 2 things
1- Mesmers already hide in plain sight with illusions and people make a uproar about it.

2-You took my comment and blew it out of context, yes I said realistic but this is still a game after all. Invisible should simply mean exactly that.