Guild Wars 2

I was just watching a team paradigm stream, and the guy playing the mesmer was asked this question. He replied:

‘Tier 1 : Thief, guardian and mesmer’
‘Tier 2 : Everything else but the warrior’
‘Tier 3: The warrior’.

After having played a warrior using every single combination of weapons/traits/runes etc I have to agree. I pondered the reasons why the warrior would place last in picks and the answer is pretty obvious.

We lack utility, group synergy, mobility in a fight and viable ranged attacks.

I find myself having to take balanced stance in traits as there are so many knockdowns/stuns/knockback/fears etc firing off all the time I can’t stay close to a target without it. Even then roots and cripple are my bane.

If you trait for defense you can’t have damage and vice versa. To actually reach a target to inflict damage you need enough defence/damage avoidance to stay up, this is the basics of a melee class. With all but 2 weapon sets you need to be in the thick of the fighting, running through multiple aoes and facing ranged foes with high dps. If you do reach them they have multiple escape skills to avoid your damage.

Let’s look at weapon sets:

Rifle : No group utility, all single target damage, one skill requires you’re next to the person, two do no damage. Burst skill only reason to take.

Bow : Poor aoe damage, poor multi target damage, 3 sec root on long timer, Burst skill : nice but it’s on a timer, needs to be stood in and have the adrenaline built up.

Maces : low damage, single target, no group utility, only the 1 skill does damage, if the person has stability it negates the entire line.

Axes: Good damage, but no group utility, no mobility, easily neutralised. Entirely based on building 3 adrenaline bars and bursting. Apart from the spin all single target.

Swords: Poor damage, have to religiously stick to the same targets to build bleeds. If they clear it (as many skills do) you end up with 0 damage. No group utility, the burst is low damage, just a nice root.

Shield: no group, only benefits you, long cool downs.

Warhorn: Group utility!!!! Nice when traited, but that’s it. You wish you had a shield for the 3 sec block when a thief is tearing you apart and you’re tooting the horn.

Greatsword- No group skills, 2 skills do damage, HB self roots, and has a long duration unless you combine it with frenzy, even then you end up taking 50 percent more damage from everyone else. Nice escape skills/closer skills.

Utility skills : Many of the skills are either just unusable, no group purpose, very short lived or are highly situational/selfish and on a long cooldown (banners…2 minute timers..cough cough).

So all in all the warrior fails in high level tournys/against decent teams because it brings nothing to the table. It does nothing that a guardian can’t do and more. You want melee dps bring a rogue, you want dps with defence+group utility bring a guardian.

If you’re going to design a class where in order to kill things they need to be near their target give them better defence/stability in a lower tier, higher hps, more damage mitigation or more ways to move through cc.

When I play spvp as a warrior you know who I look for first to fight as I know they’ll fall over easiest? The warrior. I know if they haven’t spent points in stability I will decimate them with utter ease. Closing down every other class is like a benny hill chase if they have an ounce of skill.

i agree with you. but how can you improve warrior?
warrior has good movement skills and good damage btw, he has 2-3 usually used CC plus some more less used.
i think the main reason it sucks, it is the little differences between ligh, medium, heavy armor; toughness and armor itselves changes so little damage token.
a good balancing start could be modify these problems.

Yeah, when I’m playing my thief, I love seeing a warrior as an opponent. Just the way it is.

Thief rnt tier 1, lol.
They are scrubstompers.

The basic fact is that warriors seem to take damage as easily as any other class. Heavy armour shows very little difference to cloth in actual combat.

Yet the cloth/medium classes get viable ranged abilities and ways to avoid damage, whilst the warrior by its very nature is expected to be in the thick of battle.

If you spec all defence as a warrior to extend your lifespan that little bit more you become a non factor in the fight as you hit like a wet noodle.

Simply put the warrior needs more group utility abilities and better survivability amongst all that ranged/aoe damage.

Peronally I got no problems with my Warrior in tPvP and sPvP as well. The problem why most people simply fail with warrior is … they start to open up on everything with their Bullscharge + Frenzy + HB combo and almost everyone who isn’t a hardcore scrub will avoid the main dmg this way.

What I usually simply do is that I open up on my enemy with Rush, because somehow most ppl think this would be the bullscharge dmg combo coming up so they decide to pop everything they have to block it. I end up hiiting my enemy up to 1/2 of his Health and always keep looking if he wastes his defensive CDs just to stay alive or to get away.

As soon as they did pop nealy everything I end up suddenly doind my HB Combo in mid fight, swapping to my Mace + Shield combo and keep them in the stunlock of death and bam it works.

Most people simply undestimate the dmg of the other warrior abilitys next to HB. My Whirlwind Attack often just hits with 6-7k Crits what is about 1/2 of the dmg HB does in just less amount of time
Rush also often ends up as an opener crit with 4-5k Crits
Bladetrail can deal tons of dmg if it hits.

And if you’r smart enough and you see you don’t have cripple on for a little time:

Pop your Signet of Rage and combine it with Rush, you’ll reach your opponent in just a second while he will try to jump back and this can be followed by another Whirlwind Attack

Thief rnt tier 1, lol.
They are scrubstompers.

Until the thief gets a proper build and some skillz then they are probably the best profession in game atm.

phaeris.7604:

The basic fact is that warriors seem to take damage as easily as any other class.

If you spec with little to no defense in mind then yes, however you have more passive defense built in than most classes.

Please, make an alt Elementalist; less health, less armor, and more complexity. Sure you have range but the amount of CC and gap closers more than accounts for this. Not to mention that Elementalists, unless staff -equipped, have to be in melee range for most of their damage.

This will enlighten you.

When properly played, Warriors are far from bottom-tier and have plenty of survivability if you don’t start the match trying to 100b everything in sight.

Like I said, this came from a member of team paradigm. So i assume they’re pretty experienced in high level tourneys and what is effective and what gets rolled over.

I’m not saying you can’t hit for those numbers, but i’ve seen thieves put out that damage in a 3-4 second span with backstab builds and they have more chance of getting away if targetted. You on the other hand will be ccd and then rolled as you have 0 stability trait in your build to get such high numbers and low toughness/hps.

So why would I take you over a thief? or a burst build guardian?

That’s the point i’m making. Warriors are ok, but don’t shine in offence, or defence or range and have no real group support skills. CC is more of an issue to them as most weapon sets mean you have to get to the target to hit them.

I’ve seen some tremendously played elementalists. It’s a higher skill cap class due to the rotations involved though. I would still place it above warrior in spvp use.

Warrior is the most flexible class in game. If you can’t find a build that suits you, I doubt you’ll succeed with any of the other classes.

I was wondering how long it would take the L2P post to occur. Thanks for not dissapointing me.

Yes, higher skill cap, higher skill cap.

Show me these tremendously played elementalists and I will be able to show you why we are in a bad place.

I think we can all agree thieves are top tier at the moment. A well played thief is practically gg unless you have specific counter builds for them. Just know, they can and are frequently, shut down though. Warriors are harder to “shut down” when played well.

MickPea.3982:

Yes, higher skill cap, higher skill cap.

Show me these tremendously played elementalists and I will be able to show you why we are in a bad place.

I think we can all agree thieves are top tier at the moment. A well played thief is practically gg unless you have specific counter builds for them. Just know, they can and are frequently, shut down though. Warriors are harder to “shut down” when played well.

Wait, what?

You made the statement so tell us how this is the case. Warriors are the easiest class to shut down.

Well, certainly not to derail the thread on elementalists. I got a bit carried away.
Still waiting on the video though.

As for the warrior/thief discussion, I pulled these two tidbits straight from Team Paradigm’s public PvP guides (since OP said Team Paradigm said Warrior was lowest tier without a source)…

WARRIORS

" 2.) Versatility

• Versatile Playstyle: I feel the Warrior is the most versatile Profession in the game giving you the ability to encompass a huge amount of playstyle variations.
• Tank/Capture Point Holder: The warrior is naturally very tanky. First off, it has one of the highest natural heath pools of any profession; default is 24k HP. It’s also a heavy armor profession, which contributes to its damage reduction stats and makes it that much harder to be killed. The warrior also has a multitude of weapons in his arsenal, including very defensive weapons, such as shield and hammer. These not only contribute to a defensive build, but towards an effective capture point holder. They offer constant stuns and knockbacks, both of which are substantial for outlasting opponents and obtaining proper capture point control.
• Burst/Capture Point Harasser: A warrior’s ability to dish out immense amounts of damage is nearly unmatched. The warrior definitely (when traited and geared properly) has the ability to take out large percentages of the opponents health bar in seconds. Again, due to the profession’s vast arsenal of weapons you are able to mix and match some of the strongest weapons in a build. With weapons such as Greatsword and Axe, you are able to defeat foes in a relatively short period of time as they are high damage weapons. The Warrior’s ability to take down foes quickly and effectively make for one of the stronger “point harassing” Professions.
• Team Support: A Warrior has a lot of options in terms of supporting the team. Warriors have shouts and banners that AoE buff allies with stats and boons. In addition, their vast amount of stuns and knockdowns goes well with another teammate that has more of a bursty Profession that can pile damage on stunned foes quickly.
• Combination of all three: Here is where the versatility really kicks in. You can cover all three roles in one build, with the right weapons, traits and utilities, of course. In example, if you had mace/shield and axe/axe weapon sets, your able to have the defensive abilities with mace and shield (stuns and blocks). You’re able to have the offensive/burst abilities with axe/axe. Mixed with the proper support utilities, shouts and or banners you’ll be very strong in team fights and well-rounded in point harassing/holding.

Warrior Counters: Things to look out for!
• Chill – Brutal against warriors, be sure to remove it as soon as it’s applied to you if possible.
• Condition Heavy Enemy Builds
• If running burst spec, professions that can outlast burst.
• As always – Don’t get kited! "

THIEVES

" Roamer: A roaming Thief has the task of getting around the map quickly and undetected using Shadowsteps and Stealth to assist in fights over capture points using the high burst damage that comes from Initiative. Because this Thief never fights alone, a glass-cannon build is most effective.

Offensive Support: While Thieves are weak on the defensive side in the form of tanking and outlasting foes, they can provide excellent support for helping allies win fights easier. Granting Venoms to allies, using stealth to get them out of danger, or summoning an army of Thieves are all great ways to provide offensive support.

Map Control: The high amounts of mobility allow a Thief to effectively scout the positions of eneies and keep track of them. Relaying this information to your team makes for better responses toward enemy movement. Thieves have plenty of snares and are able to quickly get in and out to apply them using Shadowstepping and Stealth. Traps can lock of key choke-points. Keeping control over the movement of your foes is key in any sPvP match, and Thieves have the tools to do so. "

Now, use your brain for a bit (videos are not necessary). Warriors can have many different roles and versatility with a specific build having a bit of everything meanwhile thieves are used for two things: burst and mobility. Have a build that can outlast/block/dodge/stunbreak the burst and you are okay. The thief then essentially poses minimal threat. His utility to the team was his burst. They are shut down now. Warriors can provide ample damage as well as better team support. They have better defense when specced properly and are therefore harder to shut down.

And yes, I realize that everything cannot be put into one build before you post that, but more versatility is achievable with warrior.

Does that answer the question a bit more?

There are a few absolute top tier classes, which would be thief and mesmer, and then everyone else falls in place based on what you want to achieve as a team. Not every team has the same philosophy and concept for what they want to do. In TP’s case, the warrior does the least for them in their objective as team, and forcing a warrior into their composition probably requires changing the playstyles/builds/mentality/etc. of all other 4 players. That in itself should flag the class as being a problem for that team. I personally like running warrior in the comp, but I wouldn’t place it anywhere near the top of the list. It’s more along the middle/low-end of classes.

That being said, the warrior is in an odd spot right now. It doesn’t mean there’s no room for the growth/evolution of the warrior in terms of creating builds for it. It’s been previously stated that the issue with warrior is active mitigation. Many professions have different ways of handling damage. ANet decided that the warrior will rely on raw stats and actual immunity from incoming damage as its form of mitigation. This is bad in two ways: existing conditions do damage through immunity, and armor isn’t the same type of stat in other games. Now condition damage is whatever. You can work around it through traits, runes, and your bar. It does impact how big of an influence the class may end up having in a fight though. The bigger issue is that armor, while very useful, doesn’t mean anything when the usual forms of mitigation that goes with “tanking” don’t exist as a passive. This means, no natural parrying, no natural block chance, no natural dodge. All of a sudden, you’re exposed to the same attacks that all other “squishier” classes receive, and thus you aren’t any harder to kill, you simply take longer, all mitigation being equal. I would argue that the warrior is one of the easiest classes to kill, because if there’s no shield, he will die rather quickly.

ANet seems to have gone away from their original stance of “offense is king.” The way warriors used to live was through sheer CC and damage output. It put them at the top, because the other classes weren’t nearly as refined as the warrior was. However, with all the recent changes since BWE1 & 2, a lot of professions got huge defensive utility built into their bars, or are allowed to specialize their utilities to be defensive to make up for their very offensive builds. You can see it many classes like the thief (evasion, longer stun duration built into their strongest burst skill, the new shadow refuge being commonly used on glass bulids), mesmer (blurred frenzy), engineer (toolbelt skills provide offensive utility on defensive utility skills), elementalist (mist form/blink are commonly used utilities), etc. This doesn’t mean those classes are OP, it just shows a different philosophical approach or an unexpected end-result of ANet’s original design.

The warrior is one where his utilities actually need to synergize with his weapon bar properly to maximize its output, or else you put yourself in the middle in which case you’re probably less effective than another class fulfilling the same role. The great versatility of the warrior is that he can do specific things extremely well. I personally think he tends to fall flat when you start trying to adjust for counters or do more than what his role is asked for. The game is still young, and there’s plenty of room for growth (both player wise and meta). So we will continue to see the rise and fall of classes on a “tier” list. Just realize that every team has their own goal in mind when creating compositions. Unless the class is at the very top, it doesn’t really matter where it falls.

SmackMyBird.2386:

Thief rnt tier 1, lol.
They are scrubstompers.

Considering that team is #1 and beating everyone using 2 thief’s what does that make you?

MickPea.3982:

Yes, higher skill cap, higher skill cap.

Show me these tremendously played elementalists and I will be able to show you why we are in a bad place.

I think we can all agree thieves are top tier at the moment. A well played thief is practically gg unless you have specific counter builds for them. Just know, they can and are frequently, shut down though. Warriors are harder to “shut down” when played well.

Sounds like a L2P issue. http://www.twitch.tv/ac_zomoa/b/332476562 Zomoa does a 2v1 around the 1 min mark in this 3 minute video and wins very convincingly. He’s also an elementalist.

top tier? guardian.

Animosity.5231:

Sounds like a L2P issue. http://www.twitch.tv/ac_zomoa/b/332476562 Zomoa does a 2v1 around the 1 min mark in this 3 minute video and wins very convincingly. He’s also an elementalist.

Trebuchets are dangerous indeed.

lack of ranged attacks?what about guardian their ranged attacks is to easily dodged they deal 0 damage mace is also useless. and they have high hp not 10k like guardian. banners are good group support. warrior is not squishy stay mobile!