Guild Wars 2

let say if everyone after Emerald have 50% winning change and same skill level. one has WWWWWLLLLL and another has WLWLWLWLWL. Who would go to the next tier? The first one, right? The second person does not have a single pip left with winning like that. This PvP league is all about luck. Many people work hard for hours and get nothing even though we all have equal winning chances with current MMR. I personally have WLWLWLWL like that for week I have not been in luck climbing into Sapphire(at least lost 3 then win 2, I will be happy). Should we at least reward something for those who are on top stats on a team which they try hard to flight until the very end? like not losing a pipe?

Problem there is people would consciously farm personal score points. It isn’t even something you need to farm you just have to be in the right places at the right times and even then it’s because you feel you’re needed there not farming kills. Someones I’ll pass on a tag because I see two friendlies vs. a hostile on a node then head back to mid or intercept hostiles en route to their point.

A funny story: I saw a mesmer casting moa and my interrupts were on cooldown. I time my dodge perfectly and…a teammate got moa’d instead. You may think I should have went CA and used lunar beam for an interrupt but that would have taken too long.

Actually noticing the tell in a group fight is rare too especially accounting for stealth.

I think its quite an achievement how devs @ arenanet can make the system worse every single time they update it

Still someone having the same win rate as someone else does not equal same advancement. Unless your wins by chance tend to be more consecutive you won’t get anywhere. That does turn it into a game of luck as opposed to a game of skill.

Pretty much. I spent the past few days in E3, gaining a pip, losing a pip, gaining two pips, losing three pips, going nowhere. Then tonight I won five in a row (mostly because the first one was good and I teamed up with several of them the rest of the night), and moved up two tiers. Also got my “five in one day” achievement.

As long as you have a winrate > 50% you will advance, no winning streak needed.
At exactly 50% you will probably need a winstreak once in a while… or a loose streak (no kidding there).
At below 50% you need that winstreak.

So… everytime you open your pvp window, scroll down and count your victories… as long as those arent <5, its okay, you will still progress at one point.

And here’s the all important hint, posted Idk, at least five times by me already:
Stop playing after you loose once, or latest… twice.

That’s not a good plan.. since more than half of the PvP’ers would need to quit each night after the first couple of matches.

The system is NOT competitive. It’s set up to favor some players in the extreme.

The system WILL NOT balance out. if anything, ANET will need to keep expanding the pip range to find matches. This will result in worse matches and fewer players. That will require expanding the pip range further… vicious cycle.

This experiment is a failure. The reason it is a failure is that the majority of players are not here for ultra competitive PvP, regardless of how much a small elite would like that to be true.

As long as you have a winrate > 50% you will advance, no winning streak needed.

But if your win-rate is only barely above 50% then you will only barely advance, gaining one actual pip only every few days, as most of the pips you earn get eaten just as quickly. And again, win RATE is largely out of your hands, since you have no control over who solo queue matches you with, or against. If you’re good, it helps, but it guarantees nothing, and those that think it does are only allowed to think so because the current matchmaking system blesses them with unchallenging match-ups.

Basically, there system should be all forward, no back. If you win, you should advance. If you lose, you should not advance. The only way the “win some, lose some” system works is if they can somehow get the overwhelming majority of players to gain over 50% win-rates, which if you run the numbers. . . is not a thing that can happen.

And… my very next match was against 4 dh and a reaper. We lost by over 300 points.

But here’s the thing… not everybody is supposed to just be able to grind it out to legendary. Ruby is end for those only grinding pips by playing massive amounts of matches.

You can get your backpiece in season3 when you get to ruby each season, or you can get it in season4 when you dont make it to ruby every season.

Ithilwen, did you switch to a profession to help balance the teamcomp? Or did you at least adjust your build for it? Or at the least, did you NOT go mid at start because when playing against that many pure dps, splitting them to far and close is pretty much the only way to win… and then just keep on outrotating them. They leave only one dh on mid → snag it with a +1 etc…

2 dh on point. Spear of justice instadeath full set of traps ready for next victim. Another case where class stacking wins.

But here’s the thing… not everybody is supposed to just be able to grind it out to legendary. Ruby is end for those only grinding pips by playing massive amounts of matches.

But even Emerald becomes a horrid grind if you don’t get placed in winning matches far more often than losing ones, that’s the point. I don’t think it’s horrible that things slow down a bit around ruby, but the current system stalls out as soon as you leave Amber!

Think of it this way, if every tier were build like Ruby, then at least half the players would NEVER make it out of Amber, likely another 10% on top of that. Requiring a 50% win-rate to advance requires half the players to fail. That is not a system that can please the overwhelming majority of players. It is a bad system.

I want the game to have some fun even you lose. I believe losing a pipe creates frustration and make game less interest.

How can people try 100 match win lose win lose and going nowhere while others can easily go to Ruby with 30-40 win streak? Skill? or just luck? not only that how about lose a match by 1 point(like 499-500) 10-12 minute play will mean nothing.

I don’t think this is a good system. Anet please let make our time worth to play your game.

not only that how about lose a match by 1 point(like 499-500) 10-12 minute play will mean nothing.

Were you on the opposing team tonight?! (I won one 500-499). If so, sorry, but that Ranger really aught to have kept me from capping far.

Ohoni.6057:

not only that how about lose a match by 1 point(like 499-500) 10-12 minute play will mean nothing.

Were you on the opposing team tonight?! (I won one 500-499). If so, sorry, but that Ranger really aught to have kept me from capping far.

Possible because I used Ranger on that match, but it was all good and my pipe line still going nowhere… ^^

mijkon.9061:

let say if everyone after Emerald have 50% winning change and same skill level. one has WWWWWLLLLL and another has WLWLWLWLWL. Who would go to the next tier? The first one, right? The second person does not have a single pip left with winning like that. This PvP league is all about luck. Many people work hard for hours and get nothing even though we all have equal winning chances with current MMR. I personally have WLWLWLWL like that for week I have not been in luck climbing into Sapphire(at least lost 3 then win 2, I will be happy). Should we at least reward something for those who are on top stats on a team which they try hard to flight until the very end? like not losing a pipe?

I do agree with you but only after sapphire.

Ohoni.6057:

Requiring a 50% win-rate to advance requires half the players to fail. That is not a system that can please the overwhelming majority of players. It is a bad system.

no it does not. once unfavorable matches arent made any more because everyone better than you has left the tier, your win rate will rise. everyone is expected to win 50% of fair matches. it just takes time, and the bads wont win the race to whatever tier is their goal. but everyone can finish the race, except for the very worst of the worst whos estimated time to tier up is longer than the season.

not that it wont be displeasing. people arent satisfied with being stomped on for however long it takes for everyone better than them to gtfo of their race position. no one likes getting dealt a bunch of unfair matches that theyre gonna lose.

no it does not. once unfavorable matches arent made any more because everyone better than you has left the tier, your win rate will rise.

No, not, do the math. Think about it. For one player to have a 51% winrate, it requires another player to have a 49% winrate. For one player to have a 90% winrate, it requires another player to have a 10% winrate.

I mean, in practical terms, this isn’t exactly what happens, but the actual result is even worse, because what really happens is that low-end people tend to just quit, meaning that for every 90% winrate player, there are likely several under 25% rinrate players.

It’s impossible for more than half the players who attempt PvP to have any long term 50%+ win-rate, that’d be like having two candidates in a race each getting 60% of the vote!

The only way that players can advance with lower than a sustained 50% win-rate (ie the ONLY way that more than half the players can potentially advance) is when there are plateaus, like in emerald, where they can advance on a streak and then lose more games than they’ve won, but not fall back down, and repeat. In the tiers without this safety-nets, it’s impossible to win without a 50%+ rate.

Uhm, teams are not fixed. Matches are not 1v1. Its a bit more complicated actually

And tbh, there are plateaus in ruby, diamond and legendary. You cant loose divisions. If you cant sustain a 50%+ winrate, maybe you arent meant to progress with your current playstyle.

Dont get me wrong, Im not talking about matchmaking here. But if you cant sustain a 50% winrate with 4 other guys in your division you form a team with (thats how you beat the bad mmr)… then… Im really sorry, but then you arent meant to get to legendary before improving yourself to the point where you are progressing again.

Im serious guys, dont misunderstand me here. After all, Im rageing too because my favorite gamemode (soloqueue) got kittened this season thanks to mmr problems. But that has nothing to do with pip progression.

Leagues are meant to make you improve yourself to the point that you enter legendary division and maybe at one point play ball with the big shots Its not meant to be grinded out to legendary by everyone.

Uhm, teams are not fixed. Matches are not 1v1. Its a bit more complicated actually

It is more complicated, but the outcome is that you need to “feed” more players into the “winners” than you actually have “winners.” If everyone wins only the bare minimum number of matches they need to beat 50% then you can spread that out over relatively few players that get constantly decimated, but for every player with an 80%+ win-rate you need around two “losers” to offset them.

It’s impossible to achieve a level in which most of the players have reasonably high win-rates, unless you don’t count players that get chewed up and spit out.

Dont get me wrong, Im not talking about matchmaking here. But if you cant sustain a 50% winrate with 4 other guys in your division you form a team with (thats how you beat the bad mmr)… then… Im really sorry, but then you arent meant to get to legendary before improving yourself to the point where you are progressing again.

So you see that it’s broken, and then just go “but I like that it’s broken.”

I don’t think many people would actually care if they had just made the tiers be about prestige. I would laugh at anyone who seemed to take pride in having a little diamond next to their name. But they tied the tier progression, victories, all sorts of elements in the the Ascension achievements, meaning whether you care about leveling tiers or not, you have to do it if you want to progress the recipes. If they could disassociate the Ascension recipe from the PvP tiers then people could go back to not caring whether PvP is broken or not.

Leagues are meant to make you improve yourself to the point that you enter legendary division and maybe at one point play ball with the big shots Its not meant to be grinded out to legendary by everyone.

I don’t particularly mind that, I would just prefer a more pleasant experience to the middle, rather than having 80% of my matches being uphill climbs, both ways, in the snow, and that’s if I’m lucky.

Ohoni.6057:

no it does not. once unfavorable matches arent made any more because everyone better than you has left the tier, your win rate will rise.

No, not, do the math. Think about it. For one player to have a 51% winrate, it requires another player to have a 49% winrate. For one player to have a 90% winrate, it requires another player to have a 10% winrate.

I mean, in practical terms, this isn’t exactly what happens, but the actual result is even worse, because what really happens is that low-end people tend to just quit, meaning that for every 90% winrate player, there are likely several under 25% rinrate players.

It’s impossible for more than half the players who attempt PvP to have any long term 50%+ win-rate, that’d be like having two candidates in a race each getting 60% of the vote!

The only way that players can advance with lower than a sustained 50% win-rate (ie the ONLY way that more than half the players can potentially advance) is when there are plateaus, like in emerald, where they can advance on a streak and then lose more games than they’ve won, but not fall back down, and repeat. In the tiers without this safety-nets, it’s impossible to win without a 50%+ rate.

now consider that you only need a small amount of wins to actually progress. on the order of like 100.

youre falling into a trap where yes, out of all games for all time, only 50% of people can win. but since this system is not zero sum, advancement does not come at the cost of another person, it comes at the cost of simply playing enough games to get streaks and take advantage of the non-zero-sum-ness.

Ohoni.6057:

(…)
So you see that it’s broken, and then just go “but I like that it’s broken.”

I was talking about mmr, which is currently only used for determining your teammates. Hence, if you choose your teammates yourself, improve with them through steadily playing, trying out different tactics, seeing what works when best – basically learning – you dont run into mmr hell anymore.
The enemy team gets chosen by which teams/players fit together according to their rostersize and div (+/-15 pips of highest player in team).
MMR is broken. Dont soloqueue if you lost too many games already.
But progression – what you are talking about – is actually not that broken. At least not for a casual friendly game like gw2.

Ohoni.6057:

(…)
I don’t particularly mind that, I would just prefer a more pleasant experience to the middle, rather than having 80% of my matches being uphill climbs, both ways, in the snow, and that’s if I’m lucky.

See above, dont soloqueue, especially if you have a bad mmr.

And about that backpiece… you can get to ruby by grinding it out with your own team, doesnt matter if your team isnt actually that good. You need one ruby if I remember correctly and rest you can get via other seasons. You just wont get it now, but at end of year. But then, its pvp, not pve.

mijkon.9061:

I want the game to have some fun even you lose. I believe losing a pipe creates frustration and make game less interest.

This is one of those design choices where I wonder whether they know anything about game design at all. Making players feel as bad as this does is just the worst design you can possibly imagine.

The grind and up and down nature of the pip system, the way players are jerked around emotionally makes me hate GW2 spvp. Once all the achievements are completed I will not want to look at spvp ever again I’ll be so sick of it.

I had 5 days loosing strike in ruby, but after the legendary players had they pip farm with me, it was my turn yesterday, I’ve made 28 pips, 26 pips with solo queue, after that I met 2 players, we teamed up, and against a 5 man pre-made we won! ( No TS, enemy had TS! )
If you get good team mates in solo queue, then team up with them..and win more! I have a winning strike, and today I will play with them, hopefully with 1 more win get the diamond! We were considering that we could make a 5 man pre-made even…
And yes, kittens are still being carried to diamond and legendary, because they team up, TS, etc. If they abuse the system, you can abuse it to, in the positive way, it’s not an exploit, it’s just more effective..
MMR is designed this way: first help the best (legendary) players to climb, after that the good players ruby/diamond, and so on.. so if you are an emerald player, you will get good matches in about April, and you will advance somehow to sapphire/ruby, until then learn to play better!

now consider that you only need a small amount of wins to actually progress. on the order of like 100.

In a row, which people who are prone to losing will never achieve. If you keep losing along the way 49 losses for 51 wins, then you’d only gain around a few pips, and need hundreds of wins to get even 10-20 pips in once out of Amber or Emerald.

and factor in that the best players won’t just stop playing because they have “enough” wins, they’ll keep playing, and keep causing other players to lose to them, just to grind out additional legendary ranks, so even once they have achieved the “necessary amount,” people will continue to suffer.

youre falling into a trap where yes, out of all games for all time, only 50% of people can win. but since this system is not zero sum, advancement does not come at the cost of another person, it comes at the cost of simply playing enough games to get streaks and take advantage of the non-zero-sum-ness.

And again, that works fine for Amber, and if people are very very lucky they can get through Emerald like that, but with poor match-making, streaks are few and far between, so they’ll never get through Ruby that way. So long as one loss equals -1 pips, it’s impossible for everyone to get ahead.

I was talking about mmr, which is currently only used for determining your teammates. Hence, if you choose your teammates yourself, improve with them through steadily playing, trying out different tactics, seeing what works when best – basically learning – you dont run into mmr hell anymore.

First, you shouldn’t have to do that. Second, while that may solve the solo-queue “idiot draft” process, it doesn’t solve the teams you get matched against, which can vary from “equally hopeless” to “might as well be aim-bots.” I mean, kudos they’re really good at the game, but I have no interest in being their punching bags.

The enemy team gets chosen by which teams/players fit together according to their rostersize and div (+/-15 pips of highest player in team).

I haven’t heard anything of the sort out of ANet. My understanding of team selection was that 1. If you’re on a five-man pre-made you get matched only against other 5-man premades (but 4-man premades can be matched against open pugs), with absolutely no consideration for party composition, and also no consideration of anything other than league tier, so you could get matched against any players in the same tier as you, regardless of skill level.

And about that backpiece… you can get to ruby by grinding it out with your own team, doesnt matter if your team isnt actually that good. You need one ruby if I remember correctly and rest you can get via other seasons. You just wont get it now, but at end of year. But then, its pvp, not pve.

. . .see that it’s broken, and then just go “but I like that it’s broken.”

LordOtto.2650:

MMR is designed this way: first help the best (legendary) players to climb, after that the good players ruby/diamond, and so on.. so if you are an emerald player, you will get good matches in about April, and you will advance somehow to sapphire/ruby, until then learn to play better!

First it was wait a week now its wait until just before seasons end, yeah great advice……………. not.

Ohoni.6057:

now consider that you only need a small amount of wins to actually progress. on the order of like 100.

In a row, which people who are prone to losing will never achieve. If you keep losing along the way 49 losses for 51 wins, then you’d only gain around a few pips, and need hundreds of wins to get even 10-20 pips in once out of Amber or Emerald.

and factor in that the best players won’t just stop playing because they have “enough” wins, they’ll keep playing, and keep causing other players to lose to them, just to grind out additional legendary ranks, so even once they have achieved the “necessary amount,” people will continue to suffer.

youre falling into a trap where yes, out of all games for all time, only 50% of people can win. but since this system is not zero sum, advancement does not come at the cost of another person, it comes at the cost of simply playing enough games to get streaks and take advantage of the non-zero-sum-ness.

And again, that works fine for Amber, and if people are very very lucky they can get through Emerald like that, but with poor match-making, streaks are few and far between, so they’ll never get through Ruby that way. So long as one loss equals -1 pips, it’s impossible for everyone to get ahead.

you only need 3 in a row to progress through emerald. when the odds of winning are 50/50, the chance of winning 3 in a row is approximately 1/8. when you play about 100 games, thats 33 trials of 3 games. so, you will get a streak of 3 about 4 times. ill revise my estimate to about 120 games to get all the way through emerald, which is only about 60 wins. not 100.

you only need 3 in a row to progress through emerald. when the odds of winning are 50/50, the chance of winning 3 in a row is approximately 1/8. when you play about 100 games, thats 33 trials of 3 games. so, you will get a streak of 3 about 4 times.

Which is true. If your odds of winning are 50/50. Which they rarely are. In GW2, your odds of winning are more typically either 80/20 or better if you have “blessed” MMR, or “30/70” if you have “cursed” MMR, which a lot of people seem to.

Ohoni.6057:

you only need 3 in a row to progress through emerald. when the odds of winning are 50/50, the chance of winning 3 in a row is approximately 1/8. when you play about 100 games, thats 33 trials of 3 games. so, you will get a streak of 3 about 4 times.

Which is true. If your odds of winning are 50/50. Which they rarely are. In GW2, your odds of winning are more typically either 80/20 or better if you have “blessed” MMR, or “30/70” if you have “cursed” MMR, which a lot of people seem to.

nah.

thats just people spewing kitten out of their mouths because they have no clue what anyones mmr is because anet refuses to show us the numbers because for some twisted reason they wanna Help Prevent Elitism Today.

Ithilwen.1529:

And… my very next match was against 4 dh and a reaper. We lost by over 300 points.

That is the time ppl should profession swap and easily counter that composition. One auramancer + 1 bulwark gyro engi easily counter that.

thats just people spewing kitten out of their mouths because they have no clue what anyones mmr is because anet refuses to show us the numbers because for some twisted reason they wanna Help Prevent Elitism Today.

And yet the fact remains that plenty of people are getting unwinnable match-up after unwinnable match-up, with only the occasional potential victory.

Link to a reddit post (by someone else) that summarises the issues of this season rather well: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/485sx2/the_official_season_2_rant_thread/d0lbup5

Ohoni.6057:

no it does not. once unfavorable matches arent made any more because everyone better than you has left the tier, your win rate will rise.

No, not, do the math. Think about it. For one player to have a 51% winrate, it requires another player to have a 49% winrate. For one player to have a 90% winrate, it requires another player to have a 10% winrate.

I mean, in practical terms, this isn’t exactly what happens, but the actual result is even worse, because what really happens is that low-end people tend to just quit, meaning that for every 90% winrate player, there are likely several under 25% rinrate players.

It’s impossible for more than half the players who attempt PvP to have any long term 50%+ win-rate, that’d be like having two candidates in a race each getting 60% of the vote!

The only way that players can advance with lower than a sustained 50% win-rate (ie the ONLY way that more than half the players can potentially advance) is when there are plateaus, like in emerald, where they can advance on a streak and then lose more games than they’ve won, but not fall back down, and repeat. In the tiers without this safety-nets, it’s impossible to win without a 50%+ rate.

you basically right which means ANET favor some players to run faster in tiers by opposing them with low lvl players till the equalibirum is balanced than you will see more and more 50% rate and no one will gain to next tier. which means for next season if you got stuck in sapphir you wont try harder to get their again or the climb to ruby . and you know you belong to sapphire and same thing for everyone else. so basically Anet put an icon which is permanent on everyone this season. you belong to first tier, the other second and your third and so on.

and pair you up with teammates who have a similar skill level to your own. We’ll then find you opponents within that same pip range and pair them against you, regardless of their skill level. For players that queue as a pre-made group, the pip range that we’ll use to find you both teammates and opponents will be based off of the player with the highest division placement in your group

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-league-season-two-changes/

I love how every QQ post seems to come from people struggling to get past emerald/sapphire. Maybe, the new MMR is working perfectly, and it’s cases of operator error. Time to interpret the tea leaves, and accept that you have reached your skill cap. Take the lumps, improve, and either start winning matches, or try again next season.

It is not your right to ding legendary. Earn it, or stop complaining it’s beyond your skill level.

Guys your wasting your time, Ohoni is a carebear brickwall dripping with entitlement
Read his post history, its pretty much exclusively him complaining/petitioning to make essentially EVERY prestigious item in the game a free hand out
He even said if he had his way he would rather have to fight teams of AI bots rather than actual players for the back piece, AND that he ONLY likes pvp matches where he wins in a blow out like 500-0 because he doesnt care about competition, he only wants the legendary back piece with as little effort as possible
.
Ohoni does NOT care about competitive pvp or the health of the pvp game mode, hes ONLY interested in petitioning on making the legendary back piece easier for HIM to obtain

I cant understand why Anet cant use time proven ranking and progressing concepts. I cant give an example, but there must be something out there which can be applied to GW2. It seems like such a large and unnecessary gamble to…

1- create an mmo without the trinity
2- create classes with varying stats
3- create these classes with so little skills that balance is threatened (believe it or not having a ton of skills to counter others is a good thing, unlike the paper>rock>scissors type merry go round we have now)
4- introduce entirely new and overpowered subclasses on top of all this
5- AND try to fuddle around with your own custom mmr system.

Its ludicrous. At some point its a good idea to turn around and examine just what your digressive crusade is doing to the rest of the community. This sounds harsh but the last thing I want is for this game to fall to the wayside.

Actually, neither the mmr system, nor the pip system are genuine anet.

There are enough skills in gw2 to have counterplay, ergo balance per se is not threatened by lack of skills.

Kayberz, the thing is… and thats starting to really make me mad… I have a legitimate concern about the mmr, because something isnt working with it. I get teammates that are WAY below my skill level… I mean, what the hell… I just got a team that thought camping close with 2 eles, ranger and DH would give them the win on foefire.
And then they complain they dont do any dmg… against 2 eles and ranger….

Then players like Ohoni come here and use my concerns about mmr NOT matching people of same skilllevel, to cry for easier progression. As if its even remotely the same thing.

The only gripe I have with progression, is that a close loss against higher mmr team shouldnt cost you a pip. Because a close loss meant you did good, you shouldnt get punished for that. It still should however disrupt winstreak.
Thats the ONLY thing Id change in terms of pip progression.

I wonder which more people come to the league for legendary backpack or legendary title?

I love how every QQ post seems to come from people struggling to get past emerald/sapphire. Maybe, the new MMR is working perfectly, and it’s cases of operator error.

Even if that’s true, that doesn’t mean there’s no problem. ANet’s job is to design a system that is fun for ALL players. Even if the system is “fair,” if it is not enjoyable for a large portion of the players then ANet has failed at their job.

Ohoni does NOT care about competitive pvp or the health of the pvp game mode, hes ONLY interested in petitioning on making the legendary back piece easier for HIM to obtain

True, and I’m just as much a GW2 player as you are. It’s not my fault I have to interact with the PvP leagues, I’ve made it quite clear that I’d like nothing more than to avoid it entirely, but ANet locked the Ascension behind them, so here I am. If that bothers you, work with me to get ANet to change that and I’ll be out of your hair entirely.

basz.6129:

I love how every QQ post seems to come from people struggling to get past emerald/sapphire. Maybe, the new MMR is working perfectly, and it’s cases of operator error. Time to interpret the tea leaves, and accept that you have reached your skill cap. Take the lumps, improve, and either start winning matches, or try again next season.

It is not your right to ding legendary. Earn it, or stop complaining it’s beyond your skill level.

Anet have acknowledged there is a problem.

Yasi.9065:

Actually, neither the mmr system, nor the pip system are genuine anet.

There are enough skills in gw2 to have counterplay, ergo balance per se is not threatened by lack of skills.

Yeaahh youre right. I came here to complain about lack of skill diversity but thats another matter entirely.

This is an official ANET post. It illustrates the attitude they are taking.

Ithilwen.1529:

This is an official ANET post. It illustrates the attitude they are taking.

this is not official, otherwise you would see an anet flair next to randommuser’s name.