Guild Wars 2

John Corpening.9847:

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As has been brought up time and time and time again since launch, get rid of hotjoins completely. Remove them from the game.

Remove the leaderboards and matchmaking completely from Solo Arena, and rename them “Random Arenas.”

Should do exactly what you want to achieve.

Maybe you should introduce a TDM mode (at least for Hot Join).

I’m not a fan of TDM, however, introducing TDM will keep the players who don’t care about the objectives out of Conquest, which means, that Conquest Hot Join will be a better learning environment for new players.

John Corpening.9847:

Thanks for the post infantrydiv. Your take on the situation is incredibly insightful and well thought out. I really appreciate your constructive feedback on where the game is and where it should go to accomodate players at all levels.

Do you feel that Solo Arena has any benefit to a player for learning how to play as a team?

Just want to hop in and say i support the TO to it s fullest, he s absolutely right on his points and they r a real improvement for everyones pvp experience!

Responding to your question John, I certainly think it does! Firstly it’s an more equal playing field since maps r designed for 5vs5s and pl who actually care about the win start to discuss before the match begins, some even reroll their class or at least talk if an enemy engages, he needs help or if a point is save.
I ve never seen such things happen in hotjoin.

for references i’m also around top 100 tpvp and 200 soloq

@John C

I still think removing solo queue is a BAD idea. At the end of the day, who cares if they move onto team queue? The idea is to get as many people as possible into PvP so that the matchups are better for everyone, regardless of how they choose to play.

As for just having everyone join team queue, that is also less than ideal. You gave an example of a team needing an extra. That is only one example. What about the scenario where one team has 5 guild members and the other team is completely random. I did that a few times today and it is not fun for either side.

What I don’t understand is why solo queue doesn’t work like the random arena system in GW1. If your team wins then it keeps your roster together for the next round. If you lose, the team is disbanded. If you win enough games in a row then you get put into team queue automatically.

If the roster loses anyone at all between rounds the counter until your random team gets put into team queue resets. The more people you have in your roster the fewer won games you need to enter team queue. If you leave the roster you can’t rejoin it unless you want to go straight into team queue.

What do people think about that?

@John C If you wanted to remove solo queue and just allow people to queue up for team queue by themselves if they wanted to, you’d still need to have some kind of buffer against premades. And even then, the fact that many premades use voice chat gives them a huge advantage. So again I’d ask for in-game voice chat, or some other game mode to queue for where voice chat amplified teamwork doesn’t give such a huge advantage.

I agree with people that want the option to solo queue and try to play seriously. Solo queue as it is right now reminds me of TF2lobby and some IRC rooms designed to setup random scrims in other games. The biggest boon solo queue has over those options in other games is that it completely eliminates premades.

Proven.2854:

What I don’t understand is why solo queue doesn’t work like the random arena system in GW1. If your team wins then it keeps your roster together for the next round. If you lose, the team is disbanded. If you win enough games in a row then you get put into team queue automatically.

If the roster loses anyone at all between rounds the counter until your random team gets put into team queue resets. If you leave the roster you can’t rejoin it unless you want to go straight into team queue.

What do people think about that?

@John C If you wanted to remove solo queue and just allow people to queue up for team queue by themselves if they wanted to, you’d still need to have some kind of buffer against premades. And even then, the fact that many premades use voice chat gives them a huge advantage. So again I’d ask for in-game voice chat, or some other game mode to queue for where voice chat amplified teamwork doesn’t give such a huge advantage.

I agree with people that want the option to solo queue and try to play seriously. Solo queue as it is right now reminds me of TF2lobby and some IRC rooms designed to setup random scrims in other games. The biggest boon solo queue has over those options in other games is that it completely eliminates premades.

I would have to agree, that every system they had in place for GW1 was optimal.

Automated Tournament system
RA > TA
HA
GvG

These were all core PvP modes, and the systems in place worked immaculately.

Unfortunately, we will have to wait until we have some other game-modes are introduced into GW2 before we can actually compare what we have (which is just a cut-down, miniature version of Alliance Battles)

John Corpening.9847:

One question I have for you as a discussion topic, if the system did better at matching similar sized teams with each other, would there be a need for SA at all? We couldn’t guarantee perfect matchups all the time so let’s also say that if it was detected that the matchup wasn’t good enough that the team at a disadvantage got a bonus for trying or at the very least was not penalized for trying? Keep in mind that we are just kicking around ideas here.

There was also some really great feedback on the topic of communication in the game. This discussion is big enough that it deserves its own thread. I’ll start that up shortly so we can brainstorm on that for a bit. Thanks to you guys who provided such great feedback on the topic of communication.

Part of the need for each of these different pvp environments (Hotjoin, SoloQ, TeamQ) is that the complexities of a competitive require a huge time investment to fully understand. I’m 99% sure that you’ll see coorelations and tendencies between the time played of players in Hotjoin, the time played of players in SoloQ, and the time played of players in TeamQ.

The assumption I’m making is that you’ll see players with less pvp time played most often in hotjoin, more often in SoloQ, and least often in TeamQ. Conversely I’m assuming you’ll see players with the most pvp time played most frequently in TeamQ, more frequently in SoloQ, and least frequently in Hotjoin.

What this shows, assuming it’s true, is that the pvp environments are largely divided by player skill (because pvp rating noticeably correllates to time played and we’re assuming that pvp ratings are an indicator of player skill), even though it’s all the same PvP and all the same game mode. Part of the problem, in my opinion is that there are too many 8 slot team servers in hotjoin. This isn’t really what you wanted to design pvp around, yet it’s what happens most often in hotjoin (from my experience). There should be significantly fewer of these 8 slot team servers so that players are more frequently experiencing pvp in hotjoin as the devs intended it to be experienced.

However, as previously pointed out by John C. there are other reasons these pvp environments exist. The biggest reason SoloQ needs to exist is because the most successful TeamQ players will always be on a voip application. Players that don’t want to talk/communicate will always tend to be playing in SoloQ. IF you were to add in game voip so that players can always listen to communication that is there you could potentially get rid of SoloQ and TeamQ and just have 1 Q. Even if players don’t want to add value to the team by communicating themselves, they can add value to the team by responding to communication that is happening.

When voip exists in game the pvp rating system will take over for putting players in the correct matchups that are competitive. As competitve casuals improve they won’t be moving between as drastic of change in skill between PvP environements with what currently exists (because everyone would be in the same PvP environment). I know the communication part was broken off into a separate thread, but really it’s all supposed to be part of the same system that we’re all talking about.

tl;dr

• Hotjoin needs to have only a handful of 8 slot team servers (must continue to support GW1 nostalgia!)
• The existing SoloQ and TeamQ split will always need to exist as long as there is no in game pvp voip
• When in game voip exists competitive casuals (and all players frankly) will be able to more seamlessly progress into higher tiers of pvp via the ranking system, and because there won’t be the environment shock of the skill level disparity between Solo Q and Team Q, because they should be merged after voip exists.

Shockwave.1230:

• The existing SoloQ and TeamQ split will always need to exist as long as there is no in game pvp voip
• When in game voip exists competitive casuals (and all players frankly) will be able to more seamlessly progress into higher tiers of pvp via the ranking system, and because there won’t be the environment shock of the skill level disparity between Solo Q and Team Q, because they should be merged after voip exists.

I disagree with this. The difference between high performance teams and regular teams is not just voice comms. A team that is together knows how the others play. Each has an assigned role and they perform it. They know how to do rotations. They know how to use combo fields effectively.

Voice chat with a bunch of randoms will not help. Actually it will probably make things worse since people would just be yelling at each other.

style.6173:

Shockwave.1230:

• The existing SoloQ and TeamQ split will always need to exist as long as there is no in game pvp voip
• When in game voip exists competitive casuals (and all players frankly) will be able to more seamlessly progress into higher tiers of pvp via the ranking system, and because there won’t be the environment shock of the skill level disparity between Solo Q and Team Q, because they should be merged after voip exists.

I disagree with this. The difference between high performance teams and regular teams is not just voice comms. A team that is together knows how the others play. Each has an assigned role and they perform it. They know how to do rotations. They know how to use combo fields effectively.

Voice chat with a bunch of randoms will not help. Actually it will probably make things worse since people would just be yelling at each other.

Xbox Live, Playstation Network.

You should experience these. Points you’ve mentioned are true, but so are the points I’ve mentioned.

no, more people play in hotjoin servers than solo arena or team arena.

do not remove the official hotjoin servers.

infantrydiv.1620:

Now, I’ve made these suggestions before and people have said “But I don’t want to have to queue, hotjoin allows me to get a quick game in and leave whenever I want”. I don’t really think this holds up, GW2 games are quite short compared to MOBA games, and the queue time + game time rarely adds up to more than 20 minutes.

playing in hotjoin games are like playing in counter strike or team fortress 2 public servers, i am free to jump in and drop out anytime i wish.

total freedom of playing.
i can just join another official anet public hotjoin servers and enjoy some chaotic mess. this is not possible in solo arena or team arena.
this is also why i do not play dota 2.

again, the official public hotjoin servers by anet must stay.

style.6173:

Shockwave.1230:

• The existing SoloQ and TeamQ split will always need to exist as long as there is no in game pvp voip
• When in game voip exists competitive casuals (and all players frankly) will be able to more seamlessly progress into higher tiers of pvp via the ranking system, and because there won’t be the environment shock of the skill level disparity between Solo Q and Team Q, because they should be merged after voip exists.

I disagree with this. The difference between high performance teams and regular teams is not just voice comms. A team that is together knows how the others play. Each has an assigned role and they perform it. They know how to do rotations. They know how to use combo fields effectively.

Voice chat with a bunch of randoms will not help. Actually it will probably make things worse since people would just be yelling at each other.

Not every game has a toxic voice community like Call of Duty or Dota 2. Voice comms won’t solve lack of experience or skill, but it helps a lot.

If not voice comms, how would you deal with the gap between regular and high performance teams? Or would you just cede the queue to high performance teams only?

In-game VOIP is not a magical solution. Not everyone will want to talk with strangers. Not everyone will understand the same language. And ultimately, even when VOIP is being fully used, pugs will have no chance against well-organized premades.

No matter what, a competitive solo queue arena must exist. A competitive solo queue arena IS and WILL be the pvp’s endgame for many people. So it should exist alongside team queue.

One way to add more people to team queue is by adding guild incentives to this game’s pvp. Currently, team queue attracts those who want to form a competitive team (and in turn, they usually do create a guild to give a name to their team), but it doesn’t do the opposite: it doesn’t attracts already existing guilds to create serious pvp teams for the sake of the guild’s privilege.

As I’ve mentioned in my last post, an “unrated” (with hidden MMR) queue arena is also needed to bridge players between hotjoin and solo/ team arenas. And if anet is too worried about creating way too many arenas, they can simply replace unrated queues with hotjoin. Afterall, the hotjoin experience can already be replicated with custom arenas.

This would keep the game at a minimum of four types of arenas:
1. Custom Arenas (now also for hotjoin experience);
2. (Hidden MMR) Unranked Arenas (for new players to start and learn the game, or for experienced players to test new builds or professions, without the stress of leaderboard ranking).
3. Solo Arenas (for competitive solo players).
4. Team Arenas + Guild incentives (for competitive team and guild matches).

Also, I do like the idea of adding Random Arena features into solo arena. Especially the option (but only as an option) of staying with the same players for the following matches. This might also tighten up the sense of community and team playing in solo because, from the second match and on, you start to get an idea on how your team mates play, and learn how to better coordinate with them. Random Arenas was pretty great at that. Teams almost always played better together after the first match.

Some people don’t get they can’t simple join and leave a hotjoin match whenever they want, otherwise they will get no rewards for their effort spent.
Note: Rewards are only given to you at the end of a match and not when you are leaving.

So it would be better to just remove hotjoin and let only the custom arenas remain to have more people attaining soloq for a better matchmaking and for the health of this mode. There is no need to split the community apart.

Bart Weird.9671:

Some people don’t get they can’t simple join and leave a hotjoin match whenever they want, otherwise they will get no rewards for their effort spent.
Note: Rewards are only given to you at the end of a match and not when you are leaving.

So it would be better to just remove hotjoin and let only the custom arenas remain to have more people attaining soloq for a better matchmaking and for the health of this mode. There is no need to split the community apart.

no, it is you who cannot and refuse to understand why some people play hotjoin.

if i want to leave a middle of hotjoin match, it means i gotta go, and i do not care about the rewards at that point.

obviously, i cannot do that in solo arena or team arena without putting the other 4 team mates in a disadvantage situation.

again, asking for removal of hotjoin only shows how selfish you are.

public hotjoin servers by anet have standard maps rotation, standard settings, such default settings cannot be found in custom servers.

Best case
- hotjoins are a mess and should be just custom arena
- an unranked arena. based on team arena so you can join with any size group.
- solo ranked
- team ranked

reasoning
As someone who casually pvps I don’t really like hotjoins but don’t feel like ranked solo arena is a very good place for experimenting. As a result I would like an unranked arena. That said I think it should be based off of team arena not solo so that people can also play with their friends and so that it supports learning team play, unranked. The matchmaking could accounted for if a team is solo players or not.

I don’t think removing ranked solo arena is a good idea. While it wouldn’t really affect me if an unranked alternative were available there are players who like it as a competitive place to play. While it might not really meet arenanet’s original design goals sometimes it is better to meet the player bases desires and have a happy player base. I think it is perfectly acceptable to have multiple end games, team arena with esport support for some players and solo for other. A unranked arena could serve as a feeder for both of these.

Proven.2854:

style.6173:

Shockwave.1230:

• The existing SoloQ and TeamQ split will always need to exist as long as there is no in game pvp voip
• When in game voip exists competitive casuals (and all players frankly) will be able to more seamlessly progress into higher tiers of pvp via the ranking system, and because there won’t be the environment shock of the skill level disparity between Solo Q and Team Q, because they should be merged after voip exists.

I disagree with this. The difference between high performance teams and regular teams is not just voice comms. A team that is together knows how the others play. Each has an assigned role and they perform it. They know how to do rotations. They know how to use combo fields effectively.

Voice chat with a bunch of randoms will not help. Actually it will probably make things worse since people would just be yelling at each other.

Not every game has a toxic voice community like Call of Duty or Dota 2. Voice comms won’t solve lack of experience or skill, but it helps a lot.

If not voice comms, how would you deal with the gap between regular and high performance teams? Or would you just cede the queue to high performance teams only?

I like this idea:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Communication-in-game/first#post3767485

style.6173:

I disagree with this. The difference between high performance teams and regular teams is not just voice comms. A team that is together knows how the others play. Each has an assigned role and they perform it. They know how to do rotations. They know how to use combo fields effectively.

Voice chat with a bunch of randoms will not help. Actually it will probably make things worse since people would just be yelling at each other.

At best voice chat would be used in something like a competitive queue for people who want to play the game to its fullest can without getting 5 people together first… but this game isn’t competitive.
It failed at being competitive long ago.

Completely ignoring the ‘few people will use it, we are toxic, exc, exc.’ there is a major issu…
You have to understand, this game isn’t complicated, the only thing pug voice chat would be used for is ‘inc back point’ or ‘rez me’… this game isn’t very deep or strategic or team-timing based so voice chat doesn’t do much that typing in chat can’t… so I mean, if someone is ignoring your typing about incomings… they probably will ignore your talking about incomings.

If anyone wants in game voice chat…. go get friends and go on Skype.
I know it’s tough, but it is tough to find people who take this game serious enough to want to talk out tactics.

for the queue issue…
Anet just needs to switch solo and teamQ into ranked verse unranked.
Bam.
Problem solved.
If you complain that still, some good players would jump over and beat up casuals…. nothing is perfect, seriously, take a look at next to any other successful MMO or even MOBA and say that that isn’t happening.

If I want to l2p a new class hot-join doesn’t really teach me much so I have to “sacrifice” my leaderboard rankings to l2p a different class.

Rank and MRR should be character bound instead of account bound.

Also the matchmaking should lean a little bit more towards your win/loss record and little bit away from being so guess’y

DiogoSilva.7089:

In-game VOIP is not a magical solution. Not everyone will want to talk with strangers. Not everyone will understand the same language. And ultimately, even when VOIP is being fully used, pugs will have no chance against well-organized premades.

No matter what, a competitive solo queue arena must exist. A competitive solo queue arena IS and WILL be the pvp’s endgame for many people. So it should exist alongside team queue.

One way to add more people to team queue is by adding guild incentives to this game’s pvp. Currently, team queue attracts those who want to form a competitive team (and in turn, they usually do create a guild to give a name to their team), but it doesn’t do the opposite: it doesn’t attracts already existing guilds to create serious pvp teams for the sake of the guild’s privilege.

As I’ve mentioned in my last post, an “unrated” (with hidden MMR) queue arena is also needed to bridge players between hotjoin and solo/ team arenas. And if anet is too worried about creating way too many arenas, they can simply replace unrated queues with hotjoin. Afterall, the hotjoin experience can already be replicated with custom arenas.

This would keep the game at a minimum of four types of arenas:
1. Custom Arenas (now also for hotjoin experience);
2. (Hidden MMR) Unranked Arenas (for new players to start and learn the game, or for experienced players to test new builds or professions, without the stress of leaderboard ranking).
3. Solo Arenas (for competitive solo players).
4. Team Arenas + Guild incentives (for competitive team and guild matches).

Also, I do like the idea of adding Random Arena features into solo arena. Especially the option (but only as an option) of staying with the same players for the following matches. This might also tighten up the sense of community and team playing in solo because, from the second match and on, you start to get an idea on how your team mates play, and learn how to better coordinate with them. Random Arenas was pretty great at that. Teams almost always played better together after the first match.

In game voip is a magical solution. It adds an enormous amount of value, definitely adds potential for bad experiences, but is the single most important feature in online console gaming. That’s how magical it is, remove Voip from console gaming and it will end up crashing hard. Voip and friend hub features carry console gaming popularity.

There’s no reason to deny having in game Voip would be an overall better experience from a user perspective, assuming reporting features and mute features exist.

The only challenge is whether it’s feasible from the business side.

Just my two cents but well….
With all this talk still going on after years about how to do PvP correctly, I don’t really understand why the PvP models from the original GW game are not given a shot in any way shape or form.
Is it like a pride thing or something? I don’t mean to be challenging to Devs in any way, I super enjoy actualy PvP combat in this game, but I’ve honestly been dumbfounded since release (still dumbfounded honestly) on the obsession with point capping in this game. Be it the 3 same ole points over n over in s/tPvP, or the groups of zergs running up against doors, it seems to be the only fighting model available.
I don’t understand this for 2 reasons honestly:
1. People ask for, like, and fight Deathmatch style in games all over the place. Especially for a Team game, as a poster above mentioned, the first thing you do when fighting for points in PvP is split up, and the first thing you do in WvW to get those points in group into massive zergs. Neither battle is ever really a balanced team vs. a balanced team. Can it hurt to set up some PvP like this and see if people like it? The only reason I seem to get is ‘we decided in the beginning on point cap, so it’s all we’ll ever do’
2. The Much Bigger Reason:
PvP in GW1 was 4v4 Deathmatch w the occasional kill the lord, or Guild vs Guild to kill the lord and essentially wipe the guild. Even after years, while competing with WoW and whatnot, this playstyle remained very popular. RA(random arena) was not friendly to people who sucked, but was more fun then a barrel of monkeys for people who liked a challenge and enjoyed creating cutting edge builds. No, you did not just buy GW1 and start playing RA. You had to learn first, you had to fight PvE and test your skills, build combos, see the effects happening.
So the big thing I don’t understand with some companies these days is how you can make a sequel to a game and just leave out or massively change certain aspects of it that were very popular? If you want introduce ‘cool new concepts’ that’s great, but don’t do it at the expense of your successful endeavors. When you make a Sequel game, you are attempting to sell me a new game based on the merits of the old one, so where are those merits?
Every single form of PvP combat from GW1 has been absent from GW2, and this is not an ignorable factor for a gamer who thinks about their purchases. Give up some 4v4 or 5v5 death match, some kill the lord for victory, and some of those old school guild battles instead of all this point capping, and you will INSTANTLY see people move back that way i think.
Popular game franchises over many years still successful: Super Mario, Legend of Zelda, Halo, CoD, Streetfighter, basically all the FPSs really… What do they all have in common? The do Not take away gameplay people enjoy to experiment with new stuff that will be ‘more fun.’ You add to what is already there, you don’t knock it down with a bulldozer, put something new there, and call it ‘The Old Game 2’

Do I like the actual skills/movement/combat in GW2? Absolutely. I just wouldn’t call it Guild Wars, since there is no more balanced PvP combat or Guild fighting literally at all. Guild wars, no guild fighting. Guild wars, no guild fighting. Guild wars, no guild fighting. See, doesn’t make sense. I would call it like ‘SteamFantasy Point Capping Wars’. There. I said it.

to add to my post, since i may have come off negative towards GW2/devs.

I’m kittening DYING to fight deathmatch in GW2 like GW1 style. I literally dream of the destruction. It would be so glorious. There are many like me who got GW2 to satisfy the PvP Bloodlust cause gw1 deathmatches were the best anywhere.

Reikou.7068:

John Corpening.9847:

~

As has been brought up time and time and time again since launch, get rid of hotjoins completely. Remove them from the game.

Remove the leaderboards and matchmaking completely from Solo Arena, and rename them “Random Arenas.”

Should do exactly what you want to achieve.

What a ridiculous statement. Why would they get rid of leaderboards AND matchmaking from solo arena? Why would you ever get rid of matchmaking from anything? Do some people think before they type?

Solo arena is one of the only really quality things they have added to this game and you want it removed for your own selfish reasons? Random arena already exists in the form of team queue. Most people don’t team queue with 4 other people anymore. Most people queue in 2’s and 3’s or even solo just to mess around. Anet should have figures on this if their system is coded to record such data (which surely it is).

Solo arena is end game for most people. It is the top of the tree because playing with 4 other regular dudes is almost an impossibility for anyone with other commitments (aka most people) or just people who want to play when they want to play and not have to log on to play cos the other 4 dudes want to roll. It is absurd.

If they remove solo arena this game will crash to new lows. It must stay as it is. A simple reworking of hotjoin to incentivise team play and to make people more likely to stay in the game for the duration AND with even teams is all that matters. IDK how they can do this. But to ask for removing solo arena and taking away ANY competitive element for ANYONE who wants to be competitive without no-lifeing with it 4 other regular guys (aka 99% of people) is really stupid and hence why I am replying to counter this flawed argument.

You should consider that not everyone actually wants to get to a competitive level. I don’t care about ladders or ranking, just occasionally get the mood to fight some people. The random cluster-kitten that is hot join is just right for that, and I have no intention to “advance to the next level”.

As such I think a casual pvp option should be left in.

Remove hotjoin, leave custom arenas, remove the leaderboard from soloq, so everyone can attend it without being punished to try new things out and group leaderboards in teamq to represent teams simply as tht.

People will adopt to it pretty fast.
Better matchmaking, skill improvement overall
and if someone like you, Deimos has to aciddently leave,
well thn it s not more thn a loss.

No one can take a soloq leaderboard for srs, how can it be seen as endgame content if people with 10wins 2 loses can be top 10 and one good player can t be measured by getting paired with four baddies.

In all honesty, it s not the developers fault tht matchmaking doesn t work, it s having hotjoin in addition to leave out the majority of the playerBASE. As a result the mmr system doesn t work or how can it be i jump over 100 places within one loss/win and get paired with pl not on the leaderboard or the top end of 1000 if i am in the top 200?

John Corpening.9847:

Do you feel that Solo Arena has any benefit to a player for learning how to play as a team?

No matter how much negativity I hear about Solo Arena, in my personal opinion, this game mode teaches you quite a bit on the competitive scene. I’ve improved a lot playing Solo Arena on various areas including but not limited to map awareness, tactical movements, battle skill and reading enemy animations and it’s completely obvious to me that the experience helps me when I’m playing with my team in tournaments.
That said, I’m not necessarily a proponent of separating Team Arena from Solo Arena and I definitely hate the existence of Skyhammer in Solo Arena.

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.
2. Solo queue stays the same with ranked leaderboards. (Matchmaking does need to be improved though)
3. Team queue stays the same with ranked leaderboards. (Matchmaking does need to be improved though)
4. Custom arenas stay the same as today.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.
2. Solo queue stays the same with ranked leaderboards. (Matchmaking does need to be improved though)
3. Team queue stays the same with ranked leaderboards. (Matchmaking does need to be improved though)
4. Custom arenas stay the same as today.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

My ideal set up is:

1. Custom Arenas for messing around
2. Unranked queue with all maps
3. Solo queue (Forest, Khylo, Foefire, Temple)
4. Team queue

infantrydiv.1620:

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.
2. Solo queue stays the same with ranked leaderboards. (Matchmaking does need to be improved though)
3. Team queue stays the same with ranked leaderboards. (Matchmaking does need to be improved though)
4. Custom arenas stay the same as today.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

My ideal set up is:

1. Custom Arenas for messing around
2. Unranked queue with all maps
3. Solo queue (Forest, Khylo, Foefire, Temple)
4. Team queue

Agreed completely. Hopefully this gets implemented.

Bart Weird.9671:

Remove hotjoin, leave custom arenas, remove the leaderboard from soloq, so everyone can attend it without being punished to try new things out and group leaderboards in teamq to represent teams simply as tht.

People will adopt to it pretty fast.
Better matchmaking, skill improvement overall
and if someone like you, Deimos has to aciddently leave,
well thn it s not more thn a loss.

No one can take a soloq leaderboard for srs, how can it be seen as endgame content if people with 10wins 2 loses can be top 10 and one good player can t be measured by getting paired with four baddies.

In all honesty, it s not the developers fault tht matchmaking doesn t work, it s having hotjoin in addition to leave out the majority of the playerBASE. As a result the mmr system doesn t work or how can it be i jump over 100 places within one loss/win and get paired with pl not on the leaderboard or the top end of 1000 if i am in the top 200?

no, i won’t leave, but a lot of people will not be happy with the removal of public anet hotjoin servers. and no, removing solo arena will not help at all. you can keep on dreaming about that though.

you still don’t get it, don’t you? people play it for join not to improve, but simply to pass time, have fun. forcing the hotjoin players to play in solo arena will only make things worse for everyone, and definitely not fun.

also, more people play in hotjoin, because there is no waiting time, people can start and end their games anytime.

custom arena will not do, because the map settings are not default.

actually, there will be more custom arenas and less official servers if more people bought the custom arena.

the problem is, custom arena does not offer much, besides a customized name and some minor settings to tweak.

there is not even an option to assign other people as admin for the custom arena.

improve the custom arena options so more people may buy custom arenas, with more people buying custom arenas, the number of official hotjoin servers will go down.

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.

people already can play solo or team, in solo arena and team arena. there is no need to remove hotjoin. hotjoin players play in the official anet hotjoin servers because they do not like playing in solo arena or team arena. removing hotjoin will not achieve anything at all.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

no, this does not cater to players who wish to play in the original public anet hotjoin servers with default map rotation and settings.

Just don’t reward hotjoin..no rank points, no titles, no silvers…nothing. Ppl are playing it just for fun right? They will still have fun…but no cookies for zergers, if you want rewards you must go the hard way

Archaon.6245:

Just don’t reward hotjoin..no rank points, no titles, no silvers…nothing. Ppl are playing it just for fun right? They will still have fun…but no cookies for zergers, if you want rewards you must go the hard way

fun, but with minimal rewards.
it is fine as it is now.

increase the rank points, silvers rewards for solo arena, team arena, that is okay.
there is no need to remove hotjoin servers and remove rewards for hotjoin servers.

and no, solo arena, team arena is not also the hard way, but the un-fun way as well.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.

people already can play solo or team, in solo arena and team arena. there is no need to remove hotjoin. hotjoin players play in the official anet hotjoin servers because they do not like playing in solo arena or team arena. removing hotjoin will not achieve anything at all.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

no, this does not cater to players who wish to play in the original public anet hotjoin servers with default map rotation and settings.

and they can continue to do so in custom arenas.

style.6173:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.

people already can play solo or team, in solo arena and team arena. there is no need to remove hotjoin. hotjoin players play in the official anet hotjoin servers because they do not like playing in solo arena or team arena. removing hotjoin will not achieve anything at all.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

no, this does not cater to players who wish to play in the original public anet hotjoin servers with default map rotation and settings.

and they can continue to do so in custom arenas.

no. they cannot do that. custom arenas are once public anet hotjoin servers, turned into custom arenas by players who bought them.

custom arenas do not have standard map settings and rotation.

would all the solo arena players stop being so selfish already?
solo arena players are the minority, the majority plays hotjoin.

also, asking to remove hotjoin servers is impossible, because the public anet hotjoin servers are custom arenas using default server names, map settings and rotation.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.

people already can play solo or team, in solo arena and team arena. there is no need to remove hotjoin. hotjoin players play in the official anet hotjoin servers because they do not like playing in solo arena or team arena. removing hotjoin will not achieve anything at all.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

no, this does not cater to players who wish to play in the original public anet hotjoin servers with default map rotation and settings.

and they can continue to do so in custom arenas.

no. they cannot do that. custom arenas are once public anet hotjoin servers, turned into custom arenas by players who bought them.

custom arenas do not have standard map settings and rotation.

would all the solo arena players stop being so selfish already?
solo arena players are the minority, the majority plays hotjoin.

also, asking to remove hotjoin servers is impossible, because the public anet hotjoin servers are custom arenas using default server names, map settings and rotation.

So why exactly do you like hotjoin so much? Is it:

A. The rampant team stacking?
B. Beating up on rank 1s who just started pvping?
C. Being able to leave your team and force autobalance so you can rejoin to the winning team?
D. Not playing the game modes/maps as intended?

infantrydiv.1620:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

@infantrydiv

I think I miss-understood one of your original points. I thought you wanted to replace hot join with custom arena. I’m not a fan of that. I do like the following:

1. Hot join goes away. It is replaced with an unranked team queue. (This way people can play solo or with friends) All maps are part of the rotation.

people already can play solo or team, in solo arena and team arena. there is no need to remove hotjoin. hotjoin players play in the official anet hotjoin servers because they do not like playing in solo arena or team arena. removing hotjoin will not achieve anything at all.

This way it pretty much caters to all the current player types.

no, this does not cater to players who wish to play in the original public anet hotjoin servers with default map rotation and settings.

and they can continue to do so in custom arenas.

no. they cannot do that. custom arenas are once public anet hotjoin servers, turned into custom arenas by players who bought them.

custom arenas do not have standard map settings and rotation.

would all the solo arena players stop being so selfish already?
solo arena players are the minority, the majority plays hotjoin.

also, asking to remove hotjoin servers is impossible, because the public anet hotjoin servers are custom arenas using default server names, map settings and rotation.

So why exactly do you like hotjoin so much? Is it:

A. The rampant team stacking?
B. Beating up on rank 1s who just started pvping?
C. Being able to leave your team and force autobalance so you can rejoin to the winning team?
D. Not playing the game modes/maps as intended?

A. sometimes. in the past, i used to check the leaderboard after the game has ended for player ranks and try to remember their names, then join them in the same team the next match. but i don’t do that anymore, nowadays, i just pick the team with professions that i do not intend to fight against.

B. not really. i try to beat up anyone who gets in my way, or flee to my hearts content when someone is trying to beat me up.

C. if i want to leave, i leave. i will not return to the game.

D. i am playing hotjoin 8 vs 8 conquest as intended. capture points, kill enemy, etc.

again, removing hotjoin is not possible, and will not fix solo arena problems.

infantrydiv.1620:

So why exactly do you like hotjoin so much? Is it:

No queue.
No penalty for leaving.
No leaderboard.
8vs8.

Shinzan.2908:

infantrydiv.1620:

So why exactly do you like hotjoin so much? Is it:

No queue.
No penalty for leaving.
No leaderboard.
8vs8.

yes! basically these points! thanks Shinzan!

we can’t find such features in solo arena and team arena.

John Corpening.9847:

What seems to have happened is that for a lot of players Solo Arena became a way to never have to think about making a team. This is in large part because a player could gain some fame from the SA leaderboard. As a result, a lot of highly competitive players did not move on to Team Arena and as teams inevitably broke apart many of those players drifted back to SA and made it their thing. So this area that was meant to be the next step for potential new hardcore players became the end goal for many existing hard core players.

That’s exactly what happened, and I’d go further and say SA is more hardcore than TA. I’d guess that fewer people play SA, and that’s the people who want to be at the top of the leaderboards, and can’t get a team.

The competitive casual group is a very important, and very large, part of the PvP ecosystem. They are the people who have taken or want to take that step out of Hotjoins but are not ready to be running the meta builds, to be looking for animation ques, or take on specific roles on a cohesive team comp, etc.. Most of them want a more competitive atmosphere but really want to keep it just for fun. Some of them will develop further and will become the next group of top tier players.

Well in any other online game, “competitive casuals” would have a place they can thrive: the lower rungs of the leaderboard! If a game has decent matchmaking they’ll play against other puggies and they’ll have a fun game.

Sadly, in GW2, partly because of the vagaries of your Glicko system, but mostly because of the low population, it was far too frequent for top-tier premades to get matched against PUGs of beginners. This caused shouting on the forums, leading you to introduce solo arena.

I’m sure you know what I’m gonna say next: splitting the already low population into 2 was not the best idea! The queues got longer, the rank mismatches got worse, and pvp went through its lowest ebb for me.

The low pop problem these days is a lot better, thanks to Wintersday bags, so I think TA is a healthy environment. There’s enough folks playing that low-ranked casual PuGs will get matcehd against each other. It’s a safe place for people just coming out of hotjoins to fight against others of their skill level. Solo queue, otoh, is a different story: the queues there are still long, the rank deltas wider, the amount of 4v5s higher, and the playerbase more abusive. I would be tempted to say “no wonder these people can’t get a team”, but if I play enough solo queue I become like that too, so clearly it’s the frustrating environment that turns peoeple into shillbottles! :p

So honestly, I would seriously consider merging the two queues back together. The only people who would mind are that small (but vocal) subset of highly competitive solo arena players for whom their ranking is the only thing that matters, and who aren’t able to get a team to achieve that ranking with. Everyone else would win from the increased population.

There are a few things you can do to reduce the fallout from this:

1. Introduce GUILD-BASED RATING. This is important for everyone who ever wants to try out a new build, or mess around casually, without jeopardising their ranking. It’ll allow people to play as a team under a guild tag whose ranking matters, and then switch to a “smurf guild” whose ranking they don’t care about if they want to mess about casually on join solo.

2. Autostart the next match for winners! Any team that wins a match gets automatically invited to join the next one. Repeatedly playing with the same people will help you get to know them and encourage the formation of teams. It’d be technically easy to implement, and you could apply it even if you didn’t follow any of my other suggestions – you could even apply it to solo queue.

3. Rewards for consecutive wins! This would encourage PUGs to stick togehter if they’re having a winning streak.

4. Merge NA and EU pvp. I don’t know if this is technically feasible but the increased population could only be a good thing.

The problem is that they step out of Hotjoins and enter a highly competitive SA environment or they solo queue into TA to potentially face premades. From my experiences as a player, the latter option tends to be a better choice. I have often found groups grateful to pick up a fifth, willing to offer guidance on what they want me to do given my build and accepting that I’m a pug and probably not very good anyway. The attitude I often see in SA is that if everyone in this random group of pugs isn’t top notch then RAGE!.

That’s been my experience too: I was very vocal in my opposition to solo queue when it was introduced, but it turned out to make the game better for me personally because it drew all the most obnoxious players and made team queue a better environment for me to join solo! :p

Vash Past.4385:

Just my two cents but well….
With all this talk still going on after years about how to do PvP correctly, I don’t really understand why the PvP models from the original GW game are not given a shot in any way shape or form. <snip>
Do I like the actual skills/movement/combat in GW2? Absolutely. I just wouldn’t call it Guild Wars, since there is no more balanced PvP combat or Guild fighting literally at all. Guild wars, no guild fighting. Guild wars, no guild fighting. Guild wars, no guild fighting. See, doesn’t make sense. I would call it like ‘SteamFantasy Point Capping Wars’. There. I said it.

Thank you! I could write REAMS about why GvG was so balanced and exciting, but you did it for me and I already wrote another long post so I won’t. :p

FrownyClown.8402:

infantrydiv.1620:

I’ve been thinking about ty Guild Wars 2 handles matchmaking, and match options for a while now. As for myself, I initially bought this game for the PvE and ended up getting hooked on PvP instead because I didn’t find the PvE engaging/challenging enough. I’ve been ranked in the top 50 of both solo queue and team queue but I’ve never considered myself a ‘competitive’ player. I enjoy playing the game (sometimes) and watching streamed tournaments/matches. In short, I consider myself the kind of player that Arenanet needs if they want the PvP scene to grow

The problem I have currently is that options available for casual/noncompetitive players who just want to have fun learning different classes and fighting conquest in a less stressful environment are really lacking.

Team Queue: Team Queue is great but after I get home every day I don’t necessarily feel like trying to find another four players to join with me.

Solo Queue: This mode is a step in the right direction but is actually probably the most toxic aspect of PvP. I see almost everyone running builds like Decap Engineer or Minion Necro or bunker warrior, and the imbalanced maps Spirit Watch and Skyhammer are frustrating to anyone who wants to play a specific class.

Hotjoin: No one plays hotjoin to try and learn the conquest game mode. It is a disorganized deathmatch with rampant team stacking.
———————————————————————

My suggested solutions:

1. Remove the leaderboards from solo queue or create an unrated queue. This will instantly stop the majority of the complaints about Skyhammer and create a friendlier environment for new and less competitive players to enjoy playing conquest as intended.

In addition to the above reasons, I believe that removing the leaderboards from Solo Queue would increase the amount of teams being formed because there are people seeking recognition on the Solo Queue leaderboards (even though they are broken) who would now move to team queue.

2. Remove hotjoin, keep custom arenas. Why? Hotjoin is a mess and is a terrible place for new players to try and learn the game. It is not uncommon to see a full team of rank 40-50 players against eight 1-20s. The games are invariably blowouts because even if both teams have even numbers of players, you can still join the one ahead by 200 points. The new unrated queue with a hidden MMR would serve as a much better place for new players to learn the game and feel like they are participating in something meaningful.

3. At a certain point, if participation in team queue picks up, teams should be grouped together under their guild name on the leaderboards. Arenanet has not done enough to make pvping as a guild group rewarding. Winning matches with your guild should give upgrade points to your guild the same way doing guild missions or world events does.

I agree with what he is saying. How I would do it is award points each time your team wins. Lose points if the team loses. People within a certain threshold of points will fight people within a similar threshold. Example. 100 to 200 points will not fight with someone with more than 200 or less than 100. Each threshold also gives access to different rewards such as exclusive armor or obtainable ascended gear or even pvp trinkets with stats not otherwise obtainable ( higher ranked trinkets could give more stats). I feel like this would make competition worthwhile and elitism rewarding to the individual. There would be a different set of points for each game mode. For example points awarded in a team deathmatch would not give me points in a capture the flag game. This would create sub communities and even new forum topics.

Team que and solo que should then be combined, giving the player the option to form a team or be assigned to one ( have players choose a team roll such as support or damage dealer so randomly assigned teams can be matched decently or just apply an algorithm)

This:
manveruppd.7601

1. Introduce GUILD-BASED RATING. This is important for everyone who ever wants to try out a new build, or mess around casually, without jeopardising their ranking. It’ll allow people to play as a team under a guild tag whose ranking matters, and then switch to a “smurf guild” whose ranking they don’t care about if they want to mess about casually on join solo.

2. Autostart the next match for winners! Any team that wins a match gets automatically invited to join the next one. Repeatedly playing with the same people will help you get to know them and encourage the formation of teams. It’d be technically easy to implement, and you could apply it even if you didn’t follow any of my other suggestions – you could even apply it to solo queue.

3. Rewards for consecutive wins! This would encourage PUGs to stick togehter if they’re having a winning streak.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Shinzan.2908:

infantrydiv.1620:

So why exactly do you like hotjoin so much? Is it:

No queue.
No penalty for leaving.
No leaderboard.
8vs8.

yes! basically these points! thanks Shinzan!

we can’t find such features in solo arena and team arena.

Well, how about we compromise:

1. Arenanet keeps the 8v8 public hotjoin servers open (as many as needed for everyone who wants to use them), but people need to manually join a match.
2. The ‘Play now’ button is removed and replaced with “Unrated Match”: An unrated queue with all maps on it. This queue will make use of a hidden MMR to pair players fairly and stop match stacking.
3. Skyhammer and Spirit Watch are removed from Solo Queue.
4. A new tutorial system which explains conquest, map mechanics, and generally how to navigate the Heart of the Mists

This way, players who wanna mess around in 8v8 still have the opportunity to do so
New players are directed more toward the more balanced unrated match system. Solo queue becomes a more fair game mode for rated play without the two most imbalanced maps.

infantrydiv.1620:

My suggested solutions:

1. Remove the leaderboards from solo queue or create an unrated queue. This will instantly stop the majority of the complaints about Skyhammer and create a friendlier environment for new and less competitive players to enjoy playing conquest as intended.

In addition to the above reasons, I believe that removing the leaderboards from Solo Queue would increase the amount of teams being formed because there are people seeking recognition on the Solo Queue leaderboards (even though they are broken) who would now move to team queue.

2. Remove hotjoin, keep custom arenas. Why? Hotjoin is a mess and is a terrible place for new players to try and learn the game. It is not uncommon to see a full team of rank 40-50 players against eight 1-20s. The games are invariably blowouts because even if both teams have even numbers of players, you can still join the one ahead by 200 points. The new unrated queue with a hidden MMR would serve as a much better place for new players to learn the game and feel like they are participating in something meaningful.

3. At a certain point, if participation in team queue picks up, teams should be grouped together under their guild name on the leaderboards. Arenanet has not done enough to make pvping as a guild group rewarding. Winning matches with your guild should give upgrade points to your guild the same way doing guild missions or world events does.

These suggestions will make me quit PvP.

infantrydiv.1620:

2. Remove hotjoin, keep custom arenas. Why? Hotjoin is a mess and is a terrible place for new players to try and learn the game. It is not uncommon to see a full team of rank 40-50 players against eight 1-20s. The games are invariably blowouts because even if both teams have even numbers of players, you can still join the one ahead by 200 points. The new unrated queue with a hidden MMR would serve as a much better place for new players to learn the game and feel like they are participating in something meaningful.

I just needed to post again to say that while I agree with your other suggestions I don’t agree with this one. Hotjoin is indeed a mess, but the reason it’s a mess is because it’s so casual-friendly (being able to switch teams, no penalty for leaving, etc). And the game desperately needs a casual gamemode, somewhere where complete newbies can jump in to simply hit stuff and practice their rotations, somewhere where you can spend a few minutes while your tournament or WvW queue pops, and not worry about being penalised for leaving when it does, somewhere where people don’t need to worry about quitting mid-match (when their newborn wakes up and needs changing or the doorbell rings cause their pizza is here) because someone else is bound to drop in and take their place.

I agree that it’s a horrible place to learn conquest, but it’s a fun and casual way to play gw2. Not every game mode needs to be about training a new generation of newbies to become leaderboard-topping Conquest Superheroes.

I agree with the poster above me who said the “Play Now” button could be made to drop you in a server according to your rating. That would improve how uneven the matches are.

I liked your other 2 suggestions, but I believe that if ANet implemented your 3rd suggestion (guild-based rating), then your 1st suggestion for an unrated match becomes unnecessary, as you would just be able to change guild tags to My Smurf Guild [nub] when you wanted to play a casual match

Unfortunately, playing hotjoin ‘as intended’ (by trying to do actual ‘conquest’) means you’re doing it wrong.