Guild Wars 2

Perhaps fault lies on my side, I can’t quite deny it. Sometimes framerate gets wonky or a brainfart happens and I get blasted, but let’s put that aside for now.
As much as I despise the sheer concept at its base, I understand how mesmer works. It’s not about how good you are but when mesmer makes a mistake that leads you to win a fight with them. Blocks are a fine method of not getting hit, obviously it can be countered. However, invulnerability and evades cannot, these two are the best in terms of avoiding damage, and I think that mesmer has a tad bit too much of it. I’ve fought a considerable bunch of these pinkish lads and gals. I would lie if I said it’s a noob class, for it takes skill, thus as much as I feel disdain for this cheeky play style of the class, I have to agree that it takes a lot of experience, if one wishes to play it right.
Still… even though I dodge one or two shatter bombs (sometimes I get hit one by one which is a ruthless strat, who will dodge on one shatter? Still you gonna get stacked with damage), I find it hard to spot an opening, which is okay, this means that the opponent knows how to rotate. But, whenever I defend against shatters (more or less) the sheer ammount of evades and invulnerabilities on top of escape on demand makes it quite unsettling at how mesmer pulls the strings.
Also yes, before you mention it, it is a QQ reaction straight from ranked Nevertheless I know when enough is enough. After whole 2 weeks, after every death by mesmer’s hand I told myself “gotta git gud brah”, but as much as I have no real problems with any of the other 8 classes, mesmers are by far the most dangerous in how they can play you like a toy.
I won’t ask for nerfs, as much as devs’ balance is kinda wonky, they still know better than me. However, I’ll ask you how can I counter mesmers on a meta warrior or guardian (with no damaging traps)?

P.S.
Also I’ve noticed one thing. Shatters deal damage in a “minionish” kind of way. However, shouldn’t at least retaliation link this damage back to mesmer? That would balance a few things without hurting the mesmer class itself (heh).

Try to dodge at the end of their block, or break line of sight, this will prevent them from spawning a phantasm.
Alternatively, since you play war and guard, you have access to tons of unblockable cc, so time them when they are blocking. A mesmer who can’t spawn phantasms is at huge disadvantage.

Go full ham after they used their blocks and distortion and try to interupt the signet of illusion.

In a 1v1, guards whould have a net advantage over mesmers, i’m not sure about war, but you definitely have a fair chance.

I don´t play guard but as war i can bring them down the moment their blink is on CD. He is vulnerable to CC. As ele i directly assault and spam AE on top of them … That at least troubles them.

As stated above, dodge at the end of the shield block (bonus points for not hitting the block too) to prevent phantasm summons. Without phantasms they have no damage and a lot less defence.

Interrupt the signet of illusions and no 2nd distortion.

That is how you win, to clarify you win by making them leave.

Any other mesmer build is so hilariously weak in this meta it isn’t worth talking about.

There are no viable warrior builds that can 1v1 meta mesmer.

Guard with longbow can beat mesmer 1v1 quite easily, if you’re using some other build without Test of Faith or the Trap Heal then you’re going to lose eventually because mesmer just has more sustain than you and you have no burst without longbow or ToF.

Also don’t think that the Anet devs know more about PvP than the players. Most Anet devs can’t get to plat and only balance off data.

Potato is correct. Mesmer counters warrior hard. Don’t even bother.

Condi mesmers counter every DPS build except for Dragonhunters and Thieves and other Mesmers.

Imagine if conditions were reverted back to how it was before HoT, one stack of damaging conditions. Even though the change would kill off condi mes, condi warr and condi rev, maybe condi necro, it would revive a ton of builds that don’t rely on condition clears.

Anyone else think condition stacking killed off build diversity? Keep it in PvE, but not in PvP or even WvW.

Prior to the change in conditions, Mesmer was trash tier.

I’m a Mesmer devotee and normally play a PU condi build. It’s pure vanilla even though I have HoT on both my accounts from day 1.

The biggest mistake people make in fighting me is to run away. You break and run, you’re mine. Mesmer is really very delicate in relation to other builds.

The recent trend in power shatter nukers works because the enemy let’s it work. That build has almost no defense. Again, you run away, you’re dead meat.

Seeing a pattern here? Mesmer isn’t OP, other players fail to understand. As often as not, my opponent will panic when they see the shatter coming in and blow cd’s.

Keep your head and pay attention and I’m at a serious disadvantage. But, for the sake of The Six.. please no more nerfs… I played at trash tier for years and I’m sick of it.

I run a power build on my mes and it’s doing well this season. It has a nice amount of everything.

Mesmer sucked because Chronomancer carried the class.

Actually Warr, DH, and Engi are hard fights as a mes.

Warrs have among the highest single hit attacks, 2 long blocks, ridiculous speed (gap closers), resistance, and good regen. As a Mes your only option is to kite, which takes a different skillset.

DH burn trap build, with two teleports, and what seems like regening health to full several times in a row. The teleport and burst damage is much better than Mes ileap + shatter. Stacked burn damage is likely the best condi damage in-game. Fighting a good DH is very annoying. You have to out-burst them to win. Rock , paper, scissor style.

Engi, silly amount of sustain, mobility, and that repeatable electrowhirl nonsense is like fighting a sponge.

The pros kill clones and phants with aoe power or condi damage. Without them a Mes is usually toast, and illusions are remarkably easy to kill even when traited for extra health. Like 1 auto attack hit in most cases.

Alright, I see something here. Let’s talk from DH point of view then. I didn’t play traps since HoT because it didn’t suit my playstyle and a few seasons back I had a reliable build of my own that did the trick, but does not do anymore.
Okay so, provided that I fight on a node against a mes, which is better to destroy illusions, procession of blades or test of faith? I’ve noticed that very often mesmers don’t let me destroy their illusions as they pop it in my face as soon as I target them (with low framerate and 100+ ping it is not so easy to pinpoint the exact moment when they blow up if they are in melee range so evading is more or less a gamble) either full blast or shatter after shatter.

All in all I wonder why I have such a hard time with them now. Previous seasons I didn’t encounter any relevant obstacles that would make me write a thread about it to ask for tips.

Rodzynald.5897:

Okay so, provided that I fight on a node against a mes, which is better to destroy illusions, procession of blades or test of faith? I

ToF it’s better, expecially if the illusions have to cross the border two times to reach you while shattering.

Rodzynald.5897:

I’ve noticed that very often mesmers don’t let me destroy their illusions as they pop it in my face as soon as I target them

If ToF it’s setted a very good vay to destroy illusions it’s force them to cross the border walking away or pushing them trough with shield’s knockback.
If you don’t play traps your only chance it’s dodge the shatter or cleave the illusions as soon they are created, while next to the mesmer.

Rodzynald.5897:

All in all I wonder why I have such a hard time with them now. Previous seasons I didn’t encounter any relevant obstacles that would make me write a thread about it to ask for tips.

The last season were available on crit sigils wich have helped power burst, without those sigils classes like necromancer and mesmer have gained survivability.

The best thing yoi can do is deny clone generation as ppl said dodge roght before the s4 ends to deny that clone on top of that mesmer is hard countered by classes with high cleave whoc an birst their clones fast classes like rev

Warr and guard are great at aoeing down the clones a mesmer has and a mesmer without clones is a useless mesmer. Also the f1 of dh can be used while the mesmer is mod dodge and pull them out of it

Dont quote me.on this i need to test this bu i believe you can dodge the shatter by dodging the right time. Guard and warr have also effective ways to deal with condis so play to your streinghts.

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

I play necromancer main at MO and I hate x1000 moan but what I hate most and the only change I will be happy with if we got something is this… JUMP I want to be able to jump in moa!!! I am like oh moa best jump on here to avoid Tele bust “you know that skill play Poeple do to counter something” nope can’t jump best take a 5man bust.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

Haha if the l2timing argument failed to defend acro staff and condi thieves from nerfs, I guess it’s totally viable for mesmers! Btw this is not only with UC, this also affects roll-away skills like withdraw and riposting shadows.

Remember when landing shatters was actually skillful and not just press your f buttons? Then again I also remember when thief’s best PvP DPS rotation wasn’t shadowshot autos. Games just kittened.

BeepBoopBop.5403:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

Haha if the l2timing argument failed to defend acro staff and condi thieves from nerfs, I guess it’s totally viable for mesmers! Btw this is not only with UC, this also affects roll-away skills like withdraw and riposting shadows.

Remember when landing shatters was actually skillful and not just press your f buttons? Then again I also remember when thief’s best PvP DPS rotation wasn’t shadowshot autos. Games just kittened.

Yeah I remember those days when shatters detonated outside of 240 range might have potentially hit 50% of the time. Now without superspeed they hit 0% of the time, heck I remember playing core mesmer and all shatters were countered by simply moving in the opposite direction if not detonated on spawn as post HoT nearly everyone has permanent swiftness or other movement speed increases.

The thing is no other class has any issue dodging shatters as you dodge into them. The only reason this is an issue on thief is because they have such rediculous travel distances in the evades that they just travel straight past the shatters without them registering to detonate sometimes.

Abelisk.4527:

Condi mesmers counter every DPS build except for Dragonhunters and Thieves and other Mesmers.

Imagine if conditions were reverted back to how it was before HoT, one stack of damaging conditions. Even though the change would kill off condi mes, condi warr and condi rev, maybe condi necro, it would revive a ton of builds that don’t rely on condition clears.

Anyone else think condition stacking killed off build diversity? Keep it in PvE, but not in PvP or even WvW.

Condo chronos put on the 2 condis that are lethal to thieves…torment (as thieves can’t stand still and are usually highly mobile) and Confusion ( Thieves have a lot of quick attacks that have good chain of damage, shut the damage down and thief is almost useless lol).

If it was 2-3 stacks of each its not that big of deal, but when you can plug 8+ stacks of each, things can get messy. Chrono’s condi sustain is better than the # of cleanses most thieves have. A lot of this is based on experience, however a good thief knows how to take a few stacks, or times their cleanses so they have as few stacks of each as possible.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

You’re just being petty now Cynz.

I don’t think it’s high on the priority of things to address about skills tbh especially when it’s on only 2 skills and 1 trait.

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

Rodzynald.5897:

Alright, I see something here. Let’s talk from DH point of view then. I didn’t play traps since HoT because it didn’t suit my playstyle and a few seasons back I had a reliable build of my own that did the trick, but does not do anymore.
Okay so, provided that I fight on a node against a mes, which is better to destroy illusions, procession of blades or test of faith? I’ve noticed that very often mesmers don’t let me destroy their illusions as they pop it in my face as soon as I target them (with low framerate and 100+ ping it is not so easy to pinpoint the exact moment when they blow up if they are in melee range so evading is more or less a gamble) either full blast or shatter after shatter.

All in all I wonder why I have such a hard time with them now. Previous seasons I didn’t encounter any relevant obstacles that would make me write a thread about it to ask for tips.

I don’t play DH. I can say that Test of Faith will usually stop clones or stop me from shattering.

The key to dodging a Mesmer shatter is to dodge toward the oncoming illusions. If you dodge away you will probably be hit.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

You’re just being petty now Cynz.

I don’t think it’s high on the priority of things to address about skills tbh especially when it’s on only 2 skills and 1 trait.

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

I can attest that shattering without superspeed is a losing gamble at best.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

You’re just being petty now Cynz.

I don’t think it’s high on the priority of things to address about skills tbh especially when it’s on only 2 skills and 1 trait.

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

And i would prefer if you stayed away from personal attacks and remained by discussion.
Point is, all Anet left thieves for defense is dodges, stealth is eh…… yeah, let’s not go there. So the main defense of the class is absolutely useless because of…. well, how should we put it nicely… oversight? And it is ok because core mes can’t land shatter?
I mean at this rate we can defend DHs pulling people into walls because DH is not used in tourneys kek.
I understand the problem with shatters not landing sometimes when clones don’t run like Flash across the map but this is different topic and you are welcome to post suggestions how to fix it without relying on exploits/bugs.

(Oh and as side note, did you know that downstate AI from mes ignore stealth completely and continue to attack you? I wonder how you would defend that <pulls popcorn>.)

Thiefs complaining about stuff moving to fast, “leaving barely any counterplay”. And then especially mesmer, which they counter already.
Oh, the irony.

On a more serious note, I can’t believe the superspeed on shatter is actually a topic.
Shatters pre HoT were arguably in need for some kind of speed buff already. Shatters/shattercombos are like 80% of a mesmers dps in pvp.
And with everything HoT added to the game/classes, giving superspeed on shatter so illusions atleast reach their target (in most cases) instead of being obliterated or just ignored through one of the 10 damage negation skills every class has, is not op in any way; it’s a necessity.

Cynz.9437:

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

While we’re at it, will you actually defend the fact that mesmers can not use 50-80% of their skills (depending on build) vs. stealth?
Then i want illusion skills to auto target thiefs in stealth just because.

What, he defends the fact that mesmer has atleast 1 thing now that can effectively attack a thief? Have to agree with you there, that’s just ridiculous. Remove it right now.

Cynz.9437:

(Oh and as side note, did you know that downstate AI from mes ignore stealth completely and continue to attack you? I wonder how you would defend that <pulls popcorn>.)

I’d like to switch that with rangers everyday. Imagine being able to use your F-Skills while downed would be amazing. Theh.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

You’re just being petty now Cynz.

I don’t think it’s high on the priority of things to address about skills tbh especially when it’s on only 2 skills and 1 trait.

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

And i would prefer if you stayed away from personal attacks and remained by discussion.
Point is, all Anet left thieves for defense is dodges, stealth is eh…… yeah, let’s not go there. So the main defense of the class is absolutely useless because of…. well, how should we put it nicely… oversight? And it is ok because core mes can’t land shatter?
I mean at this rate we can defend DHs pulling people into walls because DH is not used in tourneys kek.
I understand the problem with shatters not landing sometimes when clones don’t run like Flash across the map but this is different topic and you are welcome to post suggestions how to fix it without relying on exploits/bugs.

(Oh and as side note, did you know that downstate AI from mes ignore stealth completely and continue to attack you? I wonder how you would defend that <pulls popcorn>.)

Just calling you out on it Cynz, what else would you call asking for your attacks to suddenly negate defences used by every single class because one trait on one class all of a sudden doesn’t interact well with 2 skills and a trait?

Everyone that’s spent any time fighting mesmers knows stealth shuts down mesmers hard and they have no reveal mechanic, best they can do is try to interrupt it. Someone already mentioned phantasms don’t spawn if you’re in stealth. How do you justify a skill not working at all because someone is in stealth but otherwise would be hit by every other class/skill in the game?

I love how you think dodges are the main defence of thieves as if unblockable blind, interrupt and teleports aren’t a thing. A lot of these work wonders against mesmers and as I mentioned stealth works wonders still. Don’t bring up every other class please, this is mesmers we are talking about and against mesmers pretty much your entire kitten nal of defences works.

You’re now bringing up DHs and other mechanics to justify what you say in some kind of I don’t want to say straw man arguement but it’s increasingly getting there. Take your own advise and stay on topic.

Mesmer clone hitting in stealth while downed again, shouldn’t happen but I can think of 100 things more deserving of changing than this. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone but you complain about that, ever. Once again the sly attack with pulls popcorn, boring.

Edit: Forgot to mention I would legit switch the clone spawn and random teleport for thieves ground targeted teleport. I’d switch it for many downstate skills as 90% of the time it teleports you into more danger.

I think you two really don’t understand issue of intended and unintended behavior. Mes not being able to summon phantasm because of stealth is intended behavior same way why thief cannot interrupt mes while mes is using invul. Same way why (most) channeled and delayed spells hit thieves in stealth anyway.
Clones ignoring dodge and withdraw because of superspeed is not an intended behavior (same goes for downstate bug). Once again, your only argument for the bug is balance between mes and thief. Bugs are bugs (these specific bugs are also game changing in the fight, it is not just some typo), they should be fixed and balance should not be based on it.

I brought DHs up because this is literary same thing: DHs can abuse spear to pull people into walls thus gaining advantage, it is not intended behavior but by your logic it shouldn’t get fixed because DHs don’t do so well in tourneys. Or thieves should be able to attack through blinds and blocks because DHs hardcounter them!

I can’t believe people are actually defending exploiting of the bugs because QQ Anet balanced classes around counters.

Despite some arguments here, when I was playing my pewpew druid, I “loved” the bug that allowed my channeled rapidfire to still hit those in stealth. As long at i started channeling it just a hair before the stealth happened, still hit. Never understood why as stealth is supposed to break your sight awareness.

Playing a D/P + P/P teef, unload also does it. Its still a pain in the kitten to deal with as it is a bug that anet has no intention of fixing, it still doesn’t make sense that it happens and being on both sides of the situation, can hinder the enjoyment factor of gameplay for those that play any class that stealths (teef, mes, engi, ranger)

Either way, the way it is, if I play something that uses stealth vs something with a channeled attack, I gotta watch my timing as previously stated, Anet doesnt care about that bug so you gotta roll with it and adapt

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Despite some arguments here, when I was playing my pewpew druid, I “loved” the bug that allowed my channeled rapidfire to still hit those in stealth. As long at i started channeling it just a hair before the stealth happened, still hit. Never understood why as stealth is supposed to break your sight awareness.

Playing a D/P + P/P teef, unload also does it. Its still a pain in the kitten to deal with as it is a bug that anet has no intention of fixing, it still doesn’t make sense that it happens and being on both sides of the situation, can hinder the enjoyment factor of gameplay for those that play any class that stealths (teef, mes, engi, ranger)

Either way, the way it is, if I play something that uses stealth vs something with a channeled attack, I gotta watch my timing as previously stated, Anet doesnt care about that bug so you gotta roll with it and adapt

Who said it was a bug?

Cynz.9437:

I think you two really don’t understand issue of intended and unintended behavior. Mes not being able to summon phantasm because of stealth is intended behavior same way why thief cannot interrupt mes while mes is using invul. Same way why (most) channeled and delayed spells hit thieves in stealth anyway.
Clones ignoring dodge and withdraw because of superspeed is not an intended behavior (same goes for downstate bug). Once again, your only argument for the bug is balance between mes and thief. Bugs are bugs (these specific bugs are also game changing in the fight, it is not just some typo), they should be fixed and balance should not be based on it.

I brought DHs up because this is literary same thing: DHs can abuse spear to pull people into walls thus gaining advantage, it is not intended behavior but by your logic it shouldn’t get fixed because DHs don’t do so well in tourneys. Or thieves should be able to attack through blinds and blocks because DHs hardcounter them!

I can’t believe people are actually defending exploiting of the bugs because QQ Anet balanced classes around counters.

This isn’t about DH please stay on topic.

I guess you’ve never summoned a phantasm as a thief goes into stealth eh? Attack is used before stealth begins yet phantasm just sits there like pudding. That is what a lot of people mean.

Once again the shatters do not ignore dodge they don’t hit you while in an evade frame they hit you at the beginning or end but not during. I have yet to see anyone post a video of them hitting in an evade frame. This isn’t a bug, this is one of those weird interactions that happens.

Btw I never justified it by thief countering mesmer just that thief has so many active defences that do work on mesmer I found sad you even say evades are the main defence of thief in this topic.

Cynz.9437:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Despite some arguments here, when I was playing my pewpew druid, I “loved” the bug that allowed my channeled rapidfire to still hit those in stealth. As long at i started channeling it just a hair before the stealth happened, still hit. Never understood why as stealth is supposed to break your sight awareness.

Playing a D/P + P/P teef, unload also does it. Its still a pain in the kitten to deal with as it is a bug that anet has no intention of fixing, it still doesn’t make sense that it happens and being on both sides of the situation, can hinder the enjoyment factor of gameplay for those that play any class that stealths (teef, mes, engi, ranger)

Either way, the way it is, if I play something that uses stealth vs something with a channeled attack, I gotta watch my timing as previously stated, Anet doesnt care about that bug so you gotta roll with it and adapt

Who said it was a bug?

Ill have to locate the source, however I know I read on a couple of places (at least 1 or 2 from a GW2 dev) that it was something that was not intended, however something they do not plan on fixing. Call it a bug or exploit either way, it shouldn’t have been.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

I think you two really don’t understand issue of intended and unintended behavior. Mes not being able to summon phantasm because of stealth is intended behavior same way why thief cannot interrupt mes while mes is using invul. Same way why (most) channeled and delayed spells hit thieves in stealth anyway.
Clones ignoring dodge and withdraw because of superspeed is not an intended behavior (same goes for downstate bug). Once again, your only argument for the bug is balance between mes and thief. Bugs are bugs (these specific bugs are also game changing in the fight, it is not just some typo), they should be fixed and balance should not be based on it.

I brought DHs up because this is literary same thing: DHs can abuse spear to pull people into walls thus gaining advantage, it is not intended behavior but by your logic it shouldn’t get fixed because DHs don’t do so well in tourneys. Or thieves should be able to attack through blinds and blocks because DHs hardcounter them!

I can’t believe people are actually defending exploiting of the bugs because QQ Anet balanced classes around counters.

This isn’t about DH please stay on topic.

I guess you’ve never summoned a phantasm as a thief goes into stealth eh? Attack is used before stealth begins yet phantasm just sits there like pudding. That is what a lot of people mean.

Once again the shatters do not ignore dodge they don’t hit you while in an evade frame they hit you at the beginning or end but not during. I have yet to see anyone post a video of them hitting in an evade frame. This isn’t a bug, this is one of those weird interactions that happens.

Btw I never justified it by thief countering mesmer just that thief has so many active defences that do work on mesmer I found sad you even say evades are the main defence of thief in this topic.

Regarding DHs: example (from thesaurus):
noun
1.
one of a number of things, or a part of something, taken to show the character of the whole:
This painting is an example of his early work.
2.
a pattern or model, as of something to be imitated or avoided:
to set a good example.
3.
an instance serving for illustration; specimen:
The case histories gave carefully detailed examples of this disease.
4.
an instance illustrating a rule or method, as a mathematical problem proposed for solution.
5.
an instance, especially of punishment, serving as a warning to others:
Public executions were meant to be examples to the populace.
6.
a precedent; parallel case.

Wait, so you want phantasms to actually attack target through stealth? Am i reading his right?

If i dodge into shatter say on warrior, they explode and disappear. If i dodge same way on thief into shatter, they just run after you instead of registering the dodge process. it is NOT intended behavior. If dodge doesn’t actually do what it supposed to do just because of 2 traits interaction then it is a bug.

Actually you did justify it with mes vs thief balance, just read your previous posts again. I find it sad that you still attempt to defend bugs.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

I think you two really don’t understand issue of intended and unintended behavior. Mes not being able to summon phantasm because of stealth is intended behavior same way why thief cannot interrupt mes while mes is using invul. Same way why (most) channeled and delayed spells hit thieves in stealth anyway.
Clones ignoring dodge and withdraw because of superspeed is not an intended behavior (same goes for downstate bug). Once again, your only argument for the bug is balance between mes and thief. Bugs are bugs (these specific bugs are also game changing in the fight, it is not just some typo), they should be fixed and balance should not be based on it.

I brought DHs up because this is literary same thing: DHs can abuse spear to pull people into walls thus gaining advantage, it is not intended behavior but by your logic it shouldn’t get fixed because DHs don’t do so well in tourneys. Or thieves should be able to attack through blinds and blocks because DHs hardcounter them!

I can’t believe people are actually defending exploiting of the bugs because QQ Anet balanced classes around counters.

This isn’t about DH please stay on topic.

I guess you’ve never summoned a phantasm as a thief goes into stealth eh? Attack is used before stealth begins yet phantasm just sits there like pudding. That is what a lot of people mean.

Once again the shatters do not ignore dodge they don’t hit you while in an evade frame they hit you at the beginning or end but not during. I have yet to see anyone post a video of them hitting in an evade frame. This isn’t a bug, this is one of those weird interactions that happens.

Btw I never justified it by thief countering mesmer just that thief has so many active defences that do work on mesmer I found sad you even say evades are the main defence of thief in this topic.

Regarding DHs: example (from thesaurus):
noun
1.
one of a number of things, or a part of something, taken to show the character of the whole:
This painting is an example of his early work.
2.
a pattern or model, as of something to be imitated or avoided:
to set a good example.
3.
an instance serving for illustration; specimen:
The case histories gave carefully detailed examples of this disease.
4.
an instance illustrating a rule or method, as a mathematical problem proposed for solution.
5.
an instance, especially of punishment, serving as a warning to others:
Public executions were meant to be examples to the populace.
6.
a precedent; parallel case.

Wait, so you want phantasms to actually attack target through stealth? Am i reading his right?

If i dodge into shatter say on warrior, they explode and disappear. If i dodge same way on thief into shatter, they just run after you instead of registering the dodge process. it is NOT intended behavior. If dodge doesn’t actually do what it supposed to do just because of 2 traits interaction then it is a bug.

Actually you did justify it with mes vs thief balance, just read your previous posts again. I find it sad that you still attempt to defend bugs.

I’m saying the attack that was used before stealth should connect if you go into stealth during the cast. With phantasms normally having a 1s cast time it happens a lot so them actually doing the attack they were summoned to do before stealth should still go through. If it was any other skill on any other class it would still hit someone going into stealth even when they have been in stealth for ½s.

Yes, if you dodge into it as a warrior they explode and you take no damage, hence why I said what I said. They are not ignoring dodges like you keep claiming if they were this would be an issue on all classes. The reason this is an issue on a few skills and UC is because you move too fast through them to register as hitting. If you remember clone behaviour before HoT you’ll remember they kind of stutter before shattering to execute the attack once in range. The few skills and UC are in and out of this range too fast for it to register most of the time.

This is not a bug, they are behaving exactly as programmed and they are not hitting you through evades.

Please do quote me in this thread where I say something shouldn’t be addressed because of mesmer vs thief balance. I have said some of the issues here are not what I would consider high priority but nothing more.

apharma.3741:

This is not a bug, they are behaving exactly as programmed and they are not hitting you through evades.

Oh ok then if you say so.

And we never said that they hit through evades. But you still get hit (after dodging) even though you evaded with UC because you were like 2 pixels off or some stupid kitten.

Come on, how is this not unintended behavior? One particular trait acts up when under very specific circumstances? You think a tester from Anet actually ran into this and was like “hey I wrote that requirement!”

I’m actually with Cynz on this one for once, this is very comparable to defending DHs pulling people into walls lol. Neither side did it on purpose (kinda like how I can dodge your shatter but they accidentally still hit me! outplayed, right?), but one side still gets kittened for what would 9/10 times under different circumstances (different dodge trait, different class) times be a solid play.

Are you dodging backwards to avoid a shatter? If so that may be why it’s still hitting you. Another possibility is they the clones/phants were set in different positions and reached you at different times.

BeepBoopBop.5403:

apharma.3741:

This is not a bug, they are behaving exactly as programmed and they are not hitting you through evades.

Oh ok then if you say so.

And we never said that they hit through evades. But you still get hit (after dodging) even though you evaded with UC because you were like 2 pixels off or some stupid kitten.

Come on, how is this not unintended behavior? One particular trait acts up when under very specific circumstances? You think a tester from Anet actually ran into this and was like “hey I wrote that requirement!”

I’m actually with Cynz on this one for once, this is very comparable to defending DHs pulling people into walls lol. Neither side did it on purpose (kinda like how I can dodge your shatter but they accidentally still hit me! outplayed, right?), but one side still gets kittened for what would 9/10 times under different circumstances (different dodge trait, different class) times be a solid play.

DH pulling people into walls actively stops them playing as well as putting them in a place they never could reach any other way. This is why I ignored the DH comment as it is in no way related either mechanically or in terms of behaviour to anything being talked about. It was being used as a way to plant the false idea that the way superspeed shatters behave with UC and a few skills is a bug by offering up the situation of DH pull pulling you somewhere no-one should be able to go.

Now had Cynz used DH pull as not respecting evade frames then that would have been a good example and actually been a discussion point. But she didn’t.

For the record I’m all for DH spear respecting dodges and evade frames or at least having a tooltip explicitly stating undodgeable.

I’ve already said about switching the superspeed with swiftness in another post on this same page, it would solve the “issue” at hand while resolving other issues with the shatter mechanic at the moment.

Edit: Found the quote for you.

apharma.3741:

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

Also yes, Cynz said clones ignore dodges in a post. I mean I don’t think I’m jumping to conclusions by taking that as hitting through evades right?

@Lalainnia.3598: read the posts in the thread. It was clearly stated that if you dodge into shatter you still get hit because due to superspeed clones don’t register dodge.

@apharma.3741: problem with phantasm attack is that it takes time for it to spawn. The channeled spells hitting in stealth works only if you cast spell while you still target the enemy before they go in stealth. By the time phantasm spawns target is in stealth thus AI itself didn’t execute the spell cast yet.

I brought up DH because it is plain bug, it is unintended behavior and it gives plain advantage to the DH player. Same applies to superspeed clones ignoring dodge into shatter. You defending such bug is about as same as defeding DH pulling players into walls. Yes, you do jump to conclusion.
Bottom line, idc how they do it, i just wish they would fix it so dodging into shatter actually did what it supposed to do – avoid getting hit by shatter instead of watching how clones do 180° turn mid of your dodge and run back at you.

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

is thag why ppl still dodge my shatters?

Cynz.9437:

@Lalainnia.3598: read the posts in the thread. It was clearly stated that if you dodge into shatter you still get hit because due to superspeed clones don’t register dodge.

@apharma.3741: problem with phantasm attack is that it takes time for it to spawn. The channeled spells hitting in stealth works only if you cast spell while you still target the enemy before they go in stealth. By the time phantasm spawns target is in stealth thus AI itself didn’t execute the spell cast yet.

I brought up DH because it is plain bug, it is unintended behavior and it gives plain advantage to the DH player. Same applies to superspeed clones ignoring dodge into shatter. You defending such bug is about as same as defeding DH pulling players into walls. Yes, you do jump to conclusion.
Bottom line, idc how they do it, i just wish they would fix it so dodging into shatter actually did what it supposed to do – avoid getting hit by shatter instead of watching how clones do 180° turn mid of your dodge and run back at you.

It’s not ignoring the dodge nor is it working unintended, the clones don’t spend enough time at the required proximity to you when you use the skills mentioned or UC to register to detonate. This is entirely down to them covering a lot more distance than a simple dodge and why sometimes you will dodge a clone but not another.

An obvious change could be to reduce the distance these evades travel to be the same distance as 1 dodge. That would solve all your problems while also fixing a few funny issues like not being able to dodge or use said skills in SR and other AoE circles. The clones will spend enough time in close proximity to register to detonate and do so.

Edit: About the phantasms, I know why it happens as the phantasm needs a target to use the skill it has but target has disappeared when it is summoned. What I am saying though is that it should be treated as an attack started before going into stealth, when it was summoned. In other words the attack should be linked to whether the target was visible upon summon activation not upon appearance in the world.

Mind you I’ve long been an advocate of removing phantasms as a mechanic anyway.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

You’re just being petty now Cynz.

I don’t think it’s high on the priority of things to address about skills tbh especially when it’s on only 2 skills and 1 trait.

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

And i would prefer if you stayed away from personal attacks and remained by discussion.
Point is, all Anet left thieves for defense is dodges, stealth is eh…… yeah, let’s not go there. So the main defense of the class is absolutely useless because of…. well, how should we put it nicely… oversight? And it is ok because core mes can’t land shatter?
I mean at this rate we can defend DHs pulling people into walls because DH is not used in tourneys kek.
I understand the problem with shatters not landing sometimes when clones don’t run like Flash across the map but this is different topic and you are welcome to post suggestions how to fix it without relying on exploits/bugs.

(Oh and as side note, did you know that downstate AI from mes ignore stealth completely and continue to attack you? I wonder how you would defend that <pulls popcorn>.)

All anet left thief is dodges 7 to be precice and whats wrong with dodges? i see thief managing a very good stealth uptime during fights so:/

Potato.2567:

There are no viable warrior builds that can 1v1 meta mesmer.

Guard with longbow can beat mesmer 1v1 quite easily, if you’re using some other build without Test of Faith or the Trap Heal then you’re going to lose eventually because mesmer just has more sustain than you and you have no burst without longbow or ToF.

Also don’t think that the Anet devs know more about PvP than the players. Most Anet devs can’t get to plat and only balance off data.

Condi burn warrior can defeat meta mez easy. burn then all with phatasms.

Theres why condi is come to stay: Power(Rock) > Condi(Scissor) > hit and run(Paper) > Power(Rock)… repeat.

Why i changed from power necro to condi necro? to deal with perma stun warriors, thievs, mesmz, “smart” rangers. But i rely on power classes friends to support against a gang of power warrior or engies.

zealex.9410:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

The only issue i have with mes atm is that chrono allows AI run at light speed which results in them ignoring dodge even if you dodge into shatter making dodge obsolete in such scenario.

We’ve been over this many times, it’s not an issue born from superspeed on shatter it’s from the increased dodge range on UC. Even then with proper timing you don’t get hit by the shatter, it doesn’t make dodging obsolete it just means you need better timing.

So you actually defend the fact that thief cannot use withdraw or dash to avoid shatter effectively? Then i want dagger attacks go through invuls and blocks just because.

You’re just being petty now Cynz.

I don’t think it’s high on the priority of things to address about skills tbh especially when it’s on only 2 skills and 1 trait.

A better solution would be to address the fact shatters don’t actually work without superspeed because of all the movement speed increases given out to everyone and then change superspeed to swiftness. It may not address the issue of not triggering the detonation but at least you’ll have a second to dodge properly or just outrun them because those skills will put you further away from the shatters and you have the same speed.

And i would prefer if you stayed away from personal attacks and remained by discussion.
Point is, all Anet left thieves for defense is dodges, stealth is eh…… yeah, let’s not go there. So the main defense of the class is absolutely useless because of…. well, how should we put it nicely… oversight? And it is ok because core mes can’t land shatter?
I mean at this rate we can defend DHs pulling people into walls because DH is not used in tourneys kek.
I understand the problem with shatters not landing sometimes when clones don’t run like Flash across the map but this is different topic and you are welcome to post suggestions how to fix it without relying on exploits/bugs.

(Oh and as side note, did you know that downstate AI from mes ignore stealth completely and continue to attack you? I wonder how you would defend that <pulls popcorn>.)

All anet left thief is dodges 7 to be precice and whats wrong with stealth? i see thief managing a very good stealth uptime during fights so :/ . oh and pi i forgot that because they cant kill you if they cant use their skills lul.