Guild Wars 2

I think the forums are major driving force on what gets nerfed or buffed which Is very sad. Yes, a lot of the stuff here are constructive but the majority are just so childish.

Let’s have an example:

Diamond Skin

• Getting an ele down by 90% is an easy job, Diamond skin on its 1st iteration is such a pathetic skill to begin with. Being above 90% is hard to thing do. at 18k Hp, the opposing team will just need 1800 damage to make a GM trait useless.

• But people argue No trait should hard counter a specific build

• Here’s my answer, PvP is a TEAM GAME no one forces a condition necro to 1v1 anDS ele on point. Bring 1 Dps Class and 2v1 him. It’s so easy. I have no Idea how people see this as OP.

• The problem with players here is that they give so much Importance to WINNING A 1v1 This is not 1v1, It’s 5v5 Conquest.

Druid

• I see a lot of Complains about Druid. But to tell you the truth, out of all the elite specs, Druid has clear counters.

• Conditions and CC. Druid has only 1 source of reliable Stab which is the elite. The other needs you to be rooted and eat all the damage.

• Druid has poor condition clear. Anyone who use Verdant Etching know it needs 2-3 Seconds before the condition Clear portion procs AND you have to stay on that circle. Druidic Clarity? So you are telling me that If I get focused I need to pop AF? So what If my team does need healing at that time? And when the time comes I need AF to heal I wouldn’t have it because I used it up.

The point I am getting at is that, The forums influence the balancing in a very wrong way. It’s just the quantity of whining over the real justification of why is something being nerfed or buffed. Which time and time again, destroys build diversity in this game and Most of all If a Class will be viable or not.

I do hope the Balance team do SOME REAL TESTING before listening to the whining pvp crowd.

Again not defending these classes/ traits, just used them as few examples. There are more like this in the game which in my opinion stems a lot from forum people whining.

I just hope they do not destroy classes again next patch

Diamond Skin alone wasn’t bad, but the problem came from Cele D/D and after the expansion launch, Tempest. The meta builds had so much access to healing that they could boost themselves back up over 90% at will. Of course, the nerf went way overboard, and now Reapers can spam condis with impunity.

Same problem with Druid. Alone, Druid alone isn’t OP, but combined with the new shout buffs and the meta build (Nature Magic/Beastmastery), they have plenty of access to stun breaks and condi cleanses. Not to mention projectile destruction, water fields, and blast finishers. A well-played Druid is immortal in a teamfight.

Thuggernaut.1250:

Diamond Skin alone wasn’t bad, but the problem came from Cele D/D and after the expansion launch, Tempest. The meta builds had so much access to healing that they could boost themselves back up over 90% at will. Of course, the nerf went way overboard, and now Reapers can spam condis with impunity.

Don’t forget that Tempests could also get a crazy amount of Protection that was also slightly stronger than normal, alongside the extra healing. Most condition builds had a lot trouble even if they ran some Power.

Thuggernaut.1250:

Diamond Skin alone wasn’t bad, but the problem came from Cele D/D and after the expansion launch, Tempest. The meta builds had so much access to healing that they could boost themselves back up over 90% at will. Of course, the nerf went way overboard, and now Reapers can spam condis with impunity.

Same problem with Druid. Alone, Druid alone isn’t OP, but combined with the new shout buffs and the meta build (Nature Magic/Beastmastery), they have plenty of access to stun breaks and condi cleanses. Not to mention projectile destruction, water fields, and blast finishers. A well-played Druid is immortal in a teamfight.

Again, plenty of stun breakers? Any class can have a lot of stun breakers when you build around them.

I just mentioned the poor condi cleanses of druid? And you say they have a lot.

Listen, you can look outside the box and see how the build is good but you can’t just say “Oh they have a lot of condition cleanse” or cherry pick one aspect and base it all on that. Build making does not work like that.

2v2, A druid is supppeer easy to focus. Force him to use AF, bomb condis on him while on AF (Very wonky condi cleanses Af2 and glyphs) and CC. Done deal.

Druid Will either Use Menders or Sage which has 0 Toughness, Cleric is meh since it lacks precision. No HP either so yea.

This is the thing, 1v1 Yes These examples I mentioned are unkillable. But lemme reiterate this again PvP is 5v5, It is a Team Game

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Ele could carry in season 1 by literary tanking 1v2 even 1v3 (i have seen it plenty of times) thus causing 4v2 somewhere else. Given it was with combination of amy, various ways of dmg reduction and heals but if 1 trait forces you to bring 2 players there IS something wrong. 100% hardcounters are bad. Old DS implementation was bad. Period.

And just fyi, devs took advises from pro league players for balancing patch.

StickerHappy.8052:

I think the forums are major driving force on what gets nerfed or buffed

If that was the case the game would be in a better place. Sure, a lot of stupid things were said here but ArenaNet does things that surpasses all forum posters. They listen to no body. It doesn’t matter how good your suggestions are or how famed you are in PvP, ArenaNet doesn’t care and continues to push combat to a worse state.

The game needs to slow down, more risk/reward. More punishment for failure. Skills cast to fast, recharge too quickly, boons are too easily spammed and there is no reason for any attack to land more than 2 conditions.

Combat is too broken, ArenaNet is actively removing fun from combat. It doesn’t need balance. It needs rework.

Cynz.9437:

Ele could carry in season 1 by literary tanking 1v2 even 1v3 (i have seen it plenty of times) thus causing 4v2 somewhere else. Given it was with combination of amy, various ways of dmg reduction and heals but if 1 trait forces you to bring 2 players there IS something wrong. 100% hardcounters are bad. Old DS implementation was bad. Period.

And just fyi, devs took advises from pro league players for balancing patch.

No it couldnt,

If you want to say that about bad players well guess what in season 1 i had a guild member watch win a 1 vs 2 on my warrior. Please tell me that warrior is op because that happened.

Ele lost its place in ESL because revs did enough damage on power build to kill a ele 1 vs 1 and condi rev could quickly burst them down in team fights. Ele was actually the first class to lose its place in the season followed by DH and necro.

Complaining about eles abilities in healing and etc must of forgotten that necros have 2 life bars, druids have cele form and engy can literally go from 25% health to 100% in about 3 sec. Ele were on par with other classes when it had cele amulet and it was simply posted by the op that the heavy majority of the people on the forum simply cry things into nerf.

Taking advice from Pro League players is even worse than listening to the forums. The Pro Leaguers have a highly skewed perspective compared to regular players.

They make opinions based on obscure move combinations and teaming combinations that would never happen in a real everyday PvP game.

On top of that, several Pro League streamers have expressed strong personal biases and agendas. At least one went far out of his way to defend smurfing last season.

ANET definitely should not give much weight to pro league opinion.

kdaddy.5431:

Cynz.9437:

Ele could carry in season 1 by literary tanking 1v2 even 1v3 (i have seen it plenty of times) thus causing 4v2 somewhere else. Given it was with combination of amy, various ways of dmg reduction and heals but if 1 trait forces you to bring 2 players there IS something wrong. 100% hardcounters are bad. Old DS implementation was bad. Period.

And just fyi, devs took advises from pro league players for balancing patch.

No it couldnt,

If you want to say that about bad players well guess what in season 1 i had a guild member watch win a 1 vs 2 on my warrior. Please tell me that warrior is op because that happened.

Ele lost its place in ESL because revs did enough damage on power build to kill a ele 1 vs 1 and condi rev could quickly burst them down in team fights. Ele was actually the first class to lose its place in the season followed by DH and necro.

Complaining about eles abilities in healing and etc must of forgotten that necros have 2 life bars, druids have cele form and engy can literally go from 25% health to 100% in about 3 sec. Ele were on par with other classes when it had cele amulet and it was simply posted by the op that the heavy majority of the people on the forum simply cry things into nerf.

ESL is played by extreme minority of the player base. Is this game balanced for handful of players or for actual player base? Turret engis were never ESL material but they were too rewarding in your daily ranked, carried bad players and got nerfed eventually (which was a good thing).

Eles are not in bad place right now, imo. Yes reaper is strong, so is scrapper. Those classes got buffs and/or didn’t get nerfs they should have last balancing patch. However it is not ele issue but rather devs bad decisions in regard of these classes. This game’s pvp got really bad because of increasing power creep every patch. The nerfs are not pleasing thing but they need to happen (for pretty much every elite and most classes) if pvp is to become fun and make sense again.

P.S. eles were on par with other classes? Really? Tell it to thieves and wars, tell it to bunker guards, tell it to shatter mes, tell it to every non-druid ranger~

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

StickerHappy.8052:

I think the forums are major driving force on what gets nerfed or buffed which Is very sad. Yes, a lot of the stuff here are constructive but the majority are just so childish.

Let’s have an example:

Diamond Skin

• Getting an ele down by 90% is an easy job, Diamond skin on its 1st iteration is such a pathetic skill to begin with. Being above 90% is hard to thing do. at 18k Hp, the opposing team will just need 1800 damage to make a GM trait useless.

• But people argue No trait should hard counter a specific build

• Here’s my answer, PvP is a TEAM GAME no one forces a condition necro to 1v1 anDS ele on point. Bring 1 Dps Class and 2v1 him. It’s so easy. I have no Idea how people see this as OP.

• The problem with players here is that they give so much Importance to WINNING A 1v1 This is not 1v1, It’s 5v5 Conquest.

Druid

• I see a lot of Complains about Druid. But to tell you the truth, out of all the elite specs, Druid has clear counters.

• Conditions and CC. Druid has only 1 source of reliable Stab which is the elite. The other needs you to be rooted and eat all the damage.

• Druid has poor condition clear. Anyone who use Verdant Etching know it needs 2-3 Seconds before the condition Clear portion procs AND you have to stay on that circle. Druidic Clarity? So you are telling me that If I get focused I need to pop AF? So what If my team does need healing at that time? And when the time comes I need AF to heal I wouldn’t have it because I used it up.

The point I am getting at is that, The forums influence the balancing in a very wrong way. It’s just the quantity of whining over the real justification of why is something being nerfed or buffed. Which time and time again, destroys build diversity in this game and Most of all If a Class will be viable or not.

I do hope the Balance team do SOME REAL TESTING before listening to the whining pvp crowd.

Again not defending these classes/ traits, just used them as few examples. There are more like this in the game which in my opinion stems a lot from forum people whining.

I just hope they do not destroy classes again next patch

This is mostly A-net’s fault.. They are the guys getting paid to balance kitten. U already admit that most of it is not constructive then who is here to blame? A-net !. They lack nuance.

People can whine and whine all they want. But who friggin made Diamond skin useless? The balance team. Who is on a spree to removing amulets, Well a-net, well they just killed bunker mesmer in it’s entirity now. Viligant amulet is footsie.

If A-net listens to nerf everything into the ground crowd then it’s thier fault. Honestly they listen to half your points, and indeed apply nerfs and buffs but how it’s implemented is almost all decided by the balance team with a loosely general direction of the forums at best.

Cynz.9437:

kdaddy.5431:

Cynz.9437:

Ele could carry in season 1 by literary tanking 1v2 even 1v3 (i have seen it plenty of times) thus causing 4v2 somewhere else. Given it was with combination of amy, various ways of dmg reduction and heals but if 1 trait forces you to bring 2 players there IS something wrong. 100% hardcounters are bad. Old DS implementation was bad. Period.

And just fyi, devs took advises from pro league players for balancing patch.

No it couldnt,

If you want to say that about bad players well guess what in season 1 i had a guild member watch win a 1 vs 2 on my warrior. Please tell me that warrior is op because that happened.

Ele lost its place in ESL because revs did enough damage on power build to kill a ele 1 vs 1 and condi rev could quickly burst them down in team fights. Ele was actually the first class to lose its place in the season followed by DH and necro.

Complaining about eles abilities in healing and etc must of forgotten that necros have 2 life bars, druids have cele form and engy can literally go from 25% health to 100% in about 3 sec. Ele were on par with other classes when it had cele amulet and it was simply posted by the op that the heavy majority of the people on the forum simply cry things into nerf.

ESL is played by extreme minority of the player base. Is this game balanced for handful of players or for actual player base? Turret engis were never ESL material but they were too rewarding in your daily ranked, carried bad players and got nerfed eventually (which was a good thing).

Eles are not in bad place right now, imo. Yes reaper is strong, so is scrapper. Those classes got buffs and/or didn’t get nerfs they should have last balancing patch. However it is not ele issue but rather devs bad decisions in regard of these classes. This game’s pvp got really bad because of increasing power creep every patch. The nerfs are not pleasing thing but they need to happen (for pretty much every elite and most classes) if pvp is to become fun and make sense again.

P.S. eles were on par with other classes? Really? Tell it to thieves and wars, tell it to bunker guards, tell it to shatter mes, tell it to every non-druid ranger~

Yes ele was on par with the elite specs and could be used as a meta build in solo play. Helseth played a shatter build during the season, bunker gaurd isnt a thing anymore and so are non druid rangers. Toker, caed and i saw impact alot during the season but there were less eles during season as the ESL meta took over alot ranked matches in PvP.

Also yeah they killed turret engy to the point that turrets are useless every where in the game which is not a good. Killing builds should never be considered a good thing. No spirit rangers, traps, shouts, basically everyone ran glyphs.

So forth and so forth, people for a long time complained about D/D ele and it got nerfed at the very end. To the point burn dmg is alot lower which is fine byt now d/d isnt a good build anymore. People complaing for nerfs when anet knew good and well what they were doing in the expansion was a way for them to say hey we gave the forum crowd what they want and now we have less and less to play then before.

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

It’s not trash. But it’s not GM worthy either. Heres the thing eles with powerful auras will not get Cleanse trait on regen. That’s why DS was the only option going earth amidst all the condition spamming. So it’s not that its good or trash, its the only you can take if you wanna take Aura Sharing.

Now on your first point, we are talking about 2 different things. Incompetent Teammates does not equate to balance. It’s an MMR issue which is thankfully getting fixed by Season 2. Now, if you are skilled yourself and get teammates who are as skilled as you, then you can negate DS correct?

@Xanctus

Yes I do get your point, but cmon lets not be blind here. GW2 has the tradition of “If you whine for a long time, it will get nerfed/buffed” Turret Engies? Check. Burn Guards? Check. DS? Check.

You see, the forum whining plays a big part in this.

@Ithwilhen @All

Oh you are completely correct. They do listen to pro-players which only balance stuff on their sole intentions. Which is super sucky. You guys remember that Grouch leaked email that he said:

• “Oh players only send me some of their ideas regarding balance”

Guess what? 90% of those changes reflected on the email made through the patch. Who exactly are these “players” Ding Dong. You guessed it right.

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

It’s not trash. But it’s not GM worthy either. Heres the thing eles with powerful auras will not get Cleanse trait on regen. That’s why DS was the only option going earth amidst all the condition spamming. So it’s not that its good or trash, its the only you can take if you wanna take Aura Sharing.

Now on your first point, we are talking about 2 different things. Incompetent Teammates does not equate to balance. It’s an MMR issue which is thankfully getting fixed by Season 2. Now, if you are skilled yourself and get teammates who are as skilled as you, then you can negate DS correct?

I’d argue that sacrificing Cleansing Water is the cost of team support on the level of Tempest and that Condi Spam should be toned down anyway.

My point is more from a design standpoint. It’s not fun to play against and it’s not terribly intelligent on the Ele’s part either and most of it’s counter-play relies on team mates (which, to be honest, this game is handling poorly; there isn’t such a concrete set of roles like in other games).

StickerHappy.8052:

I do hope the Balance team do SOME REAL TESTING before listening to the whining pvp crowd.

Yeah, because why listen to people who PvP about PvP balance? :p

If you don’t get that balance is better now than the last meta, I don’t know what to say to you. I’m personally glad that the bunker mesmer spec is gone.

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

It’s not trash. But it’s not GM worthy either. Heres the thing eles with powerful auras will not get Cleanse trait on regen. That’s why DS was the only option going earth amidst all the condition spamming. So it’s not that its good or trash, its the only you can take if you wanna take Aura Sharing.

Now on your first point, we are talking about 2 different things. Incompetent Teammates does not equate to balance. It’s an MMR issue which is thankfully getting fixed by Season 2. Now, if you are skilled yourself and get teammates who are as skilled as you, then you can negate DS correct?

I’d argue that sacrificing Cleansing Water is the cost of team support on the level of Tempest and that Condi Spam should be toned down anyway.

My point is more from a design standpoint. It’s not fun to play against and it’s not terribly intelligent on the Ele’s part either and most of it’s counter-play relies on team mates (which, to be honest, this game is handling poorly; there isn’t such a concrete set of roles like in other games).

Yes Fair Points. I am also agreeing to the point that there is a lot of condi spamming in game which needs to be fixed to promote smarter application for them, not just mindlessly spamming marks or etc.

We shall see on season 2 if roles are more evident with the so called MMR fix. Hate to say it tho, the game is balanced around 5v5 conquest so you can’t really remove the team part aspect of it.

@style

Hey dude, I am not saying that this meta is worse. I am just pointing out that I do not want to see any unwarranted nerfs or buffs next patch just because of whining. The reason being is that because of these outcries and “pro players advising” are being used as justification to destroy a class or build or trait Without Prior Testing

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

It’s not trash. But it’s not GM worthy either. Heres the thing eles with powerful auras will not get Cleanse trait on regen. That’s why DS was the only option going earth amidst all the condition spamming. So it’s not that its good or trash, its the only you can take if you wanna take Aura Sharing.

Now on your first point, we are talking about 2 different things. Incompetent Teammates does not equate to balance. It’s an MMR issue which is thankfully getting fixed by Season 2. Now, if you are skilled yourself and get teammates who are as skilled as you, then you can negate DS correct?

I’d argue that sacrificing Cleansing Water is the cost of team support on the level of Tempest and that Condi Spam should be toned down anyway.

My point is more from a design standpoint. It’s not fun to play against and it’s not terribly intelligent on the Ele’s part either and most of it’s counter-play relies on team mates (which, to be honest, this game is handling poorly; there isn’t such a concrete set of roles like in other games).

Yes Fair Points. I am also agreeing to the point that there is a lot of condi spamming in game which needs to be fixed to promote smarter application for them, not just mindlessly spamming marks or etc.

We shall see on season 2 if roles are more evident with the so called MMR fix. Hate to say it tho, the game is balanced around 5v5 conquest so you can’t really remove the team part aspect of it.

@style

Hey dude, I am not saying that this meta is worse. I am just pointing out that I do not want to see any unwarranted nerfs or buffs next patch just because of whining. The reason being is that because of these outcries and “pro players advising” are being used as justification to destroy a class or build or trait Without Prior Testing

Your mistake is assuming ArenaNet tests combat.

Dude, just look at staff necro, it’s the most boring weapon in the entire game. Yet, someone looked at the design and went, “This is okay, people will like this.”

The fact is, whoever is in charge of combat design and balance isn’t good. They’ve infected the game with tons of power creep and made some ridiculously bad decisions that even the most hardcore class fanboy would disagree with.

Hell, raids is a clear example of how the combat design lead has no idea what to do. You got 3 damage sponges on a timer with a handful of uber death attacks. My friend laughed when I said the most dangerous thing about the Vale Guardian was the green circle people had to stand in, then he proceeded to mock saying, “Back in my days, we fought bosses” yada yada yada.

At this rate, Guild Wars 2 combat will be hopelessly lost. ArenaNet needs to take a step back, look at what they got and say, “Guys, we got to bring this into 2016.”
But so far, we got the laughable joke that is EEESPPPPUURRTZ.

Nova Stiker.8396:

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

It’s not trash. But it’s not GM worthy either. Heres the thing eles with powerful auras will not get Cleanse trait on regen. That’s why DS was the only option going earth amidst all the condition spamming. So it’s not that its good or trash, its the only you can take if you wanna take Aura Sharing.

Now on your first point, we are talking about 2 different things. Incompetent Teammates does not equate to balance. It’s an MMR issue which is thankfully getting fixed by Season 2. Now, if you are skilled yourself and get teammates who are as skilled as you, then you can negate DS correct?

I’d argue that sacrificing Cleansing Water is the cost of team support on the level of Tempest and that Condi Spam should be toned down anyway.

My point is more from a design standpoint. It’s not fun to play against and it’s not terribly intelligent on the Ele’s part either and most of it’s counter-play relies on team mates (which, to be honest, this game is handling poorly; there isn’t such a concrete set of roles like in other games).

Yes Fair Points. I am also agreeing to the point that there is a lot of condi spamming in game which needs to be fixed to promote smarter application for them, not just mindlessly spamming marks or etc.

We shall see on season 2 if roles are more evident with the so called MMR fix. Hate to say it tho, the game is balanced around 5v5 conquest so you can’t really remove the team part aspect of it.

@style

Hey dude, I am not saying that this meta is worse. I am just pointing out that I do not want to see any unwarranted nerfs or buffs next patch just because of whining. The reason being is that because of these outcries and “pro players advising” are being used as justification to destroy a class or build or trait Without Prior Testing

Your mistake is assuming ArenaNet tests combat.

Dude, just look at staff necro, it’s the most boring weapon in the entire game. Yet, someone looked at the design and went, “This is okay, people will like this.”

The fact is, whoever is in charge of combat design and balance isn’t good. They’ve infected the game with tons of power creep and made some ridiculously bad decisions that even the most hardcore class fanboy would disagree with.

Hell, raids is a clear example of how the combat design lead has no idea what to do. You got 3 damage sponges on a timer with a handful of uber death attacks. My friend laughed when I said the most dangerous thing about the Vale Guardian was the green circle people had to stand in, then he proceeded to mock saying, “Back in my days, we fought bosses” yada yada yada.

---

At this rate, Guild Wars 2 combat will be hopelessly lost. ArenaNet needs to take a step back, look at what they got and say, “Guys, we got to bring this into 2016.”
But so far, we got the laughable joke that is EEESPPPPUURRTZ.

You are assuming too.

Who knows, maybe the reason the devs are incompetent is because the balancing is an upper management decision that prevents them from doing anything.

That’s what I hope though,, UNLESS they are really incompetent,

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

How is reverting the situation any better?
Now you need to invest everything you have in condiremoval …just to stay alive vs a reaper let alone kill him, now you need to massively outplay even the worst videogamer out there just for the simple fact he plays a reaper

If 1vs1 matter then why should reapers be allowed to hardcounter eles now?

INB4 you ask
If ele must use a special one build to just stand a chance vs a reaper why then the necro community expected to beat ele without changing any build?

That’s why I fully agree with the OP , a game balanced on community feedback without actual testing..will be always a mess because over 90% of that feedback is extremely biased in a way or another

StickerHappy.8052:

Nova Stiker.8396:

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

It’s not trash. But it’s not GM worthy either. Heres the thing eles with powerful auras will not get Cleanse trait on regen. That’s why DS was the only option going earth amidst all the condition spamming. So it’s not that its good or trash, its the only you can take if you wanna take Aura Sharing.

Now on your first point, we are talking about 2 different things. Incompetent Teammates does not equate to balance. It’s an MMR issue which is thankfully getting fixed by Season 2. Now, if you are skilled yourself and get teammates who are as skilled as you, then you can negate DS correct?

I’d argue that sacrificing Cleansing Water is the cost of team support on the level of Tempest and that Condi Spam should be toned down anyway.

My point is more from a design standpoint. It’s not fun to play against and it’s not terribly intelligent on the Ele’s part either and most of it’s counter-play relies on team mates (which, to be honest, this game is handling poorly; there isn’t such a concrete set of roles like in other games).

Yes Fair Points. I am also agreeing to the point that there is a lot of condi spamming in game which needs to be fixed to promote smarter application for them, not just mindlessly spamming marks or etc.

We shall see on season 2 if roles are more evident with the so called MMR fix. Hate to say it tho, the game is balanced around 5v5 conquest so you can’t really remove the team part aspect of it.

@style

Hey dude, I am not saying that this meta is worse. I am just pointing out that I do not want to see any unwarranted nerfs or buffs next patch just because of whining. The reason being is that because of these outcries and “pro players advising” are being used as justification to destroy a class or build or trait Without Prior Testing

Your mistake is assuming ArenaNet tests combat.

Dude, just look at staff necro, it’s the most boring weapon in the entire game. Yet, someone looked at the design and went, “This is okay, people will like this.”

The fact is, whoever is in charge of combat design and balance isn’t good. They’ve infected the game with tons of power creep and made some ridiculously bad decisions that even the most hardcore class fanboy would disagree with.

Hell, raids is a clear example of how the combat design lead has no idea what to do. You got 3 damage sponges on a timer with a handful of uber death attacks. My friend laughed when I said the most dangerous thing about the Vale Guardian was the green circle people had to stand in, then he proceeded to mock saying, “Back in my days, we fought bosses” yada yada yada.

---

At this rate, Guild Wars 2 combat will be hopelessly lost. ArenaNet needs to take a step back, look at what they got and say, “Guys, we got to bring this into 2016.”
But so far, we got the laughable joke that is EEESPPPPUURRTZ.

You are assuming too.

Who knows, maybe the reason the devs are incompetent is because the balancing is an upper management decision that prevents them from doing anything.

That’s what I hope though,, UNLESS they are really incompetent,

I highly doubt the developers are being held back by an executive decision.

I bet you ArenaNet hates the balance problem as much as us. I also bet whoever is leading combat design, just isn’t good at it. I wouldn’t call it incompetent, but bad at what they are doing? Yes. Do I think I can do better than them? Hell yes. The bar is so low it’s not hard for anyone to beat.

People are saying the game is balanced around community feedback, I heavily, HEAVILY disagree. Right now the community can do better, much, much better.

Heck, the excuse of “we got to balance PvP with PvE and WvW in mind” mentality the developers have is actually hindering the concept of balance. Right now, a lot of problematic powerful traits are just completely useless in PvE and designed only with PvP in mind. Ironically the game would be better balanced with PvE at the center, that’s how bad things are now.
There doesn’t need a PvP/PvE split for balance. What Guild Wars 2 needs to be a good combat developer at the wheel, one with excellent puzzle solving skills for mechanics, creative uses of tools for diversity and good at collecting testing data for balance.

All traits that the current combat design developers are currently missing.

Supreme.3164:

Malchior.5732:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

Because 1v1s do matter to a certain degree.
It’s not fun for you to be playing randomly and you meet someone who is literally impossible for you to damage just because he chose 1 specific trait and you have incompetent team mates.

Now, if the trait is so trash in a team environment, it wouldn’t be picked at all, but it was and it was infuriating to play against such a binary trait: you either completely negate someone’s damage or you don’t and you die.

How is reverting the situation any better?
Now you need to invest everything you have in condiremoval …just to stay alive vs a reaper let alone kill him, now you need to massively outplay even the worst videogamer out there just for the simple fact he plays a reaper

If 1vs1 matter then why should reapers be allowed to hardcounter eles now?

INB4 you ask
If ele must use a special one build to just stand a chance vs a reaper why then the necro community expected to beat ele without changing any build?

That’s why I fully agree with the OP , a game balanced on community feedback without actual testing..will be always a mess because over 90% of that feedback is extremely biased in a way or another

Exactly, finally someone who understands. Now lets say If the devs put Condi Removal on WH or Staff now DS wont be a necessity right? But without those you HAVE to take DS.

Same with All classes, mesmer is pigeonholed into Inspiration for condi removal, any decent mesmer build MUST trait into it.

That’s why Druid has bad condition removal, unless you wanna go full bunker and take WS/DRUID/NM.

That’s one side of the story, Choices are limited. The whining even make it worse, DS got worse from being a bad trait.

They have to test these stuff before nerfing/buffing. Maybe DS wasn’t the issue? Maybe it was the condi Spam?

Now the whining makes it So that ONLY 1 SIDE OF THE STORY gets heard AND GUESS WHAT, ANET WONT TEST IT EITHER

Every single game is and should be balance for the very top of the playerbase. The logic is thus, it is extremely unlikely that one can improve much anymore and thus issues are caused by balance and not by a lack of skill cap. And even then there is a lot of room and only the most obvious issues are fixed.

Why would you balance for the low or mid end of the spectrum when most issues can be resolved by better play?

Chokolata.1870:

Every single game is and should be balance for the very top of the playerbase. The logic is thus, it is extremely unlikely that one can improve much anymore and thus issues are caused by balance and not by a lack of skill cap. And even then there is a lot of room and only the most obvious issues are fixed.

Why would you balance for the low or mid end of the spectrum when most issues can be resolved by better play?

Balance is important.

But fun is more important.

As long as I am having fun, it doesn’t matter if I am playing an underpowered character or class. If I am contributing, feeling active with my decisions and strategy, being weak doesn’t remove the fun from that.

_

What does remove the fun is combat being unbelievably forgiving when you poorly time your defenses, button mashing and missing attacks is not punishing at all and enough CC spammed around to create a player hurricane.

When most of the game is exactly like what I just mentioned, balance won’t do jack.

StickerHappy.8052:

This is the thing, 1v1 Yes These examples I mentioned are unkillable. But lemme reiterate this again PvP is 5v5, It is a Team Game

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

I think this is a totally bs reason for not balancing skills/traits. Skills/traits should not solely be balanced around 5v5 conquest.

The previous iteration of DS was definitely not okay. Maybe it was balanced in a 5v5, but in 1v1 (and many 2v2s) it nearly invalidated all condition builds. Don’t even try to argue this; there wasn’t a condi build alive that could take out even a slightly above average ele (lets say 60th percentile) using DS. DS was balanced in the fairly common (but not all-encompassing) 5v5 scenario, but it was ridiculously overpowered in 1v1s and even some 2v2s (team mates may heal the ele). Previous DS was NOT balanced, don’t try to argue that it was.

Arcaedus.7290:

StickerHappy.8052:

This is the thing, 1v1 Yes These examples I mentioned are unkillable. But lemme reiterate this again PvP is 5v5, It is a Team Game

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

I think this is a totally bs reason for not balancing skills/traits. Skills/traits should not solely be balanced around 5v5 conquest.

The previous iteration of DS was definitely not okay. Maybe it was balanced in a 5v5, but in 1v1 (and many 2v2s) it nearly invalidated all condition builds. Don’t even try to argue this; there wasn’t a condi build alive that could take out even a slightly above average ele (lets say 60th percentile) using DS. DS was balanced in the fairly common (but not all-encompassing) 5v5 scenario, but it was ridiculously overpowered in 1v1s and even some 2v2s (team mates may heal the ele). Previous DS was NOT balanced, don’t try to argue that it was.

Actually I rarely ever had an issue breaking DS then again I rarely go full condi. While I agree it could be toned down a bit, I don’t like how it is now at all

Keadron.9570:

Arcaedus.7290:

StickerHappy.8052:

This is the thing, 1v1 Yes These examples I mentioned are unkillable. But lemme reiterate this again PvP is 5v5, It is a Team Game

@Malchior

You are right. Here is the thing though. There were more people complaining about DS (which isn’t a problem in a team setting) because of that 1v1 MENTALITY and Anet absolutely guts a subpar trait to begin with, into uselessness.

Why? Because of the whining.

They could’ve just toned down the protection spam, not because it’s strong, because it affects allies via aura sharing.

I think this is a totally bs reason for not balancing skills/traits. Skills/traits should not solely be balanced around 5v5 conquest.

The previous iteration of DS was definitely not okay. Maybe it was balanced in a 5v5, but in 1v1 (and many 2v2s) it nearly invalidated all condition builds. Don’t even try to argue this; there wasn’t a condi build alive that could take out even a slightly above average ele (lets say 60th percentile) using DS. DS was balanced in the fairly common (but not all-encompassing) 5v5 scenario, but it was ridiculously overpowered in 1v1s and even some 2v2s (team mates may heal the ele). Previous DS was NOT balanced, don’t try to argue that it was.

Actually I rarely ever had an issue breaking DS then again I rarely go full condi. While I agree it could be toned down a bit, I don’t like how it is now at all

There is a lot of things wrong with diamond skin, first off the necessity of it just shows how broken things are.

But if the developers really wanted to balance diamond skin they needed to hit invigorating turrets. There are moderately sized gaps when it comes to healing with your auras, invigorating turrets was basically perma regen and vigor to cover during those gaps. It was the only trait with good access to regeneration outside of arcana and without that regen, tempests take a nasty hit with their sustain. Heck, a strong nerf to bunker tempest but a buff to tempest would change it so aura’s apply 1 second of quickness.

It just shows how unaware they are, not just by design but mechanics. Diamond skin was a problem to the other problems, but instead of fixing all the problems, they decided to get rid of it and give ele’s more power creep with fresh air.