Guild Wars 2

While buffs to condis may be welcome in pve i have following concerns about dmging condis:
- no counterplay to confusion anymore by not using any spells as condi removal also counts as action and might get you killed before you even clear those confusion stacks

- the play between vulnerability and condis:
now condis do more dmg while vulnerability is on target… all fine and good, the issue is condis already do considerable dmg (in pvp at least) and certanly it may be too early talk about it due to lack of numbers
BUT there is still that old investment problem – condis require only 1 stat to work (where direct dmg requires 2-3 stats for same effectivness), with duration reduction and stacking it will be even more the case meaning condi builds only need to invest into condi dmg and choose defensive stats (i really hope dire wont be added to pvp, it would be brutal).

My point is, with vulnerability buff it would make condis do way too much dmg imo and by all means they are not that hard to land (many come from massive, often unavoidable aoe or endless AA where high hitting direct dmg spells usually have CDs or some high requirements).

Suggestions (brain storming):
- I think it wouldn’t be bad to force condi builds to rely on at least 2 stats (crits, for example: if you land spell it adds 1 condi stack; if you crit it lands 2 stacks)

- rebalance application of condis on weapons – move them to 2-5 weapon spells instead of stacking effects on AA (necros and mesmers come in mind) and aoe (sup combustive shot). So condi builds actually get punished if their spells missed/got dodged/blocked etc. just like for direct dmg builds.

(inb4 direct dmg can’tbe cleansed: direct dmg gets reduced by protection, can’t affect target with invul or block on; condis ignore protection and continue to tick while target is in invul/block)

- Possibly make condi removing spells count not as action that will kill you before you clear those 10 stacks of confusion?

Discuss, flame away~

edit: put wrong condi in post, switched weakness with vulnerability _

Weakness remains untouched.

It’s Vulnerability that now affects conditions.

And it won’t be a problem in PvP for the most part, because out of condition damage dealers, only Engineers can stack a lot of vuln in short time frame.

And we’re not even sure how Engineer will look like after balance patch.

Rym.1469:

Weakness remains untouched.

It’s Vulnerability that now affects conditions.

And it won’t be a problem in PvP for the most part, because out of condition damage dealers, only Engineers can stack a lot of vuln in short time frame.

And we’re not even sure how Engineer will look like after balance patch.

You have to think about everything, not just 1v1’s. There are specs in the game that can stack lots vunlerability and having just one of them in a teamfight could be a big deal. Also, I don’t think celestial engi needed this buff, with the amount of vunlerability they can stack, I’m seriously concerned how broken they will be after this goes live.

Rym.1469:

Weakness remains untouched.

It’s Vulnerability that now affects conditions.

And it won’t be a problem in PvP for the most part, because out of condition damage dealers, only Engineers can stack a lot of vuln in short time frame.

And we’re not even sure how Engineer will look like after balance patch.

Yeah i ment vulnerability, had long day and my english isn’t best~
Switched it to right condi, ty

As far as stacking goes, actually it is not true, mesmer can put 25 stacks of vulnerability on target in extremely short time (talking about seconds here) and you can’t forget team play. Think about it: mes puts 25 stack of vulnerability, necro or engi spams AA/aoe -> RIP instantly.

burst oneshot meta – condispam meta – tanky cele cleanse spam meta

And shoutbots are getting buffed massivley with new traits

And teefs are becoming the same gods like theyre in wvw already -.-

If condition damage scaling getting a buff, torment will be broken even more than it is now.

+1, it’s actually true about burst builds having to focus on atleast 2 stats while condi builds only need to focus on 1 (since there is no condi duration on amulet as a stat)

So ye, I would actually love this change, to make those less faceroll. I would find it sad on my p/s rabid engi but hey.. Rework on conditions is needed.

Conditions and boons at their core isn’t well designed. Guild Wars 2 will forever battle conditions vs. removal. However, ArenaNet design team think this system is great and will refuse to listen any suggestions. :\

_

The only defense against conditions is full removal, with the new boon Resistance, functions similarly, complete denial.

To make matters worse, conditions are everywhere, even with weapons or traits that are power based. Sigils and even runes can liter an opponent with various conditions.

Boons suffer even more problems that hinder unique builds and play styles even more.

_
In my opinion, Vulnerability should NOT be a removable condition if ArenaNet wishes to promote it. Keeping it power based.

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

StickerHappy.8052:

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

What are you even on about? Not everyone who defend thieves mains a thief.

StickerHappy.8052:

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

Confusion affects all classes, what does it have to do with thieves………..?
If anything, the part of the change makes it a tiny bit easier for thieves to deal with confusion due to dmg reduction on fast attacks…

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

Confusion affects all classes, what does it have to do with thieves………..?
If anything, the part of the change makes it a tiny bit easier for thieves to deal with confusion due to dmg reduction on fast attacks…

While true, confusion got a buff, yes weaker ticks on attack but atleast its not situational now.

StickerHappy.8052:

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

Confusion affects all classes, what does it have to do with thieves………..?
If anything, the part of the change makes it a tiny bit easier for thieves to deal with confusion due to dmg reduction on fast attacks…

While true, confusion got a buff, yes weaker ticks on attack but atleast its not situational now.

you didn’t answer my question….

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

Confusion affects all classes, what does it have to do with thieves………..?
If anything, the part of the change makes it a tiny bit easier for thieves to deal with confusion due to dmg reduction on fast attacks…

While true, confusion got a buff, yes weaker ticks on attack but atleast its not situational now.

you didn’t answer my question….

Uhmm because this will eventually a mesmer issue. Why? We are the major source of that condition.

StickerHappy.8052:

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

Confusion was nerfed waaay back, and now they tweak it, and guess what? the ever so defensive thieves take notice. lol

Confusion affects all classes, what does it have to do with thieves………..?
If anything, the part of the change makes it a tiny bit easier for thieves to deal with confusion due to dmg reduction on fast attacks…

While true, confusion got a buff, yes weaker ticks on attack but atleast its not situational now.

you didn’t answer my question….

Uhmm because this will eventually a mesmer issue. Why? We are the major source of that condition.

And what does it have to do with thieves?

Cynz.9437:

Rym.1469:

Weakness remains untouched.

It’s Vulnerability that now affects conditions.

And it won’t be a problem in PvP for the most part, because out of condition damage dealers, only Engineers can stack a lot of vuln in short time frame.

And we’re not even sure how Engineer will look like after balance patch.

Yeah i ment vulnerability, had long day and my english isn’t best~
Switched it to right condi, ty

As far as stacking goes, actually it is not true, mesmer can put 25 stacks of vulnerability on target in extremely short time (talking about seconds here) and you can’t forget team play. Think about it: mes puts 25 stack of vulnerability, necro or engi spams AA/aoe -> RIP instantly.

As much as I agree that Vulnerability can be applied by teammates, I don’t recall it as a specific problem. I mean, if you get focused and get 15 or more vuln stacks, the increase in power damage taken heavily outweights all bonus damage you would get from conditions. It’s also condition we already have to deal with, mostly due to Engineers and Shatter Mesmers.

Now, about the condition specs. We don’t exactly know yet how the situation will look like. I am no expert on Mesmers, but I don’t recall condition ones stacking much vuln on me on live servers.

As for Necromancer, it’s pretty easy deal. Condition doesn’t and won’t stack Vulnerability in any significant form. It’s up to the point that many Condimancers including Noscoc used Frality sigils for cover condi, since our only access on meta build was via corrupting Protection.

Going into Spite without the Reaper results in better, but yet not any valuable or steady Vulnerability application, mostly by occassional Bitter Chill off Dark Path. Going Curses+SR+Spite instead of BM or DM as third pick will probably result in lesser survability and bring lot of unecessary Power damage.

In case of picking the Reaper, Spite vulnerability application spikes quite a bit. However, because you’re already with Reaper and Curses traitline for Condition, you have to give up on SR and stuff like Burning to go into Spite and get Vuln.

You hyperbolize the problem, really. Vulnerability affecting Condition damage is mostly a PvE thing outside of Engi and his nadespam.

Besides, with all the buffs Thief gets in that balance patch I don’t think you should be really concerned that much. Thief will always be in every meta due to it’s mechanics.

- yes, but for 25 stacks vulerability to work with direct dmg those spells actually have to land where condis are applied by AA and consistent aoe… you do understand that it is huge buff to condi dmg (which is already not THAT low) when it is affected by vulnerability

i am not saying that vulerability change is bad, i am saying that spells applying condis need to be rebalanced to match direct dmg build costs

- once again, shatter mes can get 25 stacks on you really fast, add engi or necro into fight (and pvp is all about teamplay), you will drop really fast and no invuls/blocks in the world will help you there

- necros: see point above

- so let’s pretend engis and mesmers don’t exist in pvp?

- what does it have to do with thieves, o m g… if you have personal issue with me, feel free to msg me but don’t turn this thread into let’s use CynZ personal preferences as argument because we don’t have better

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Vulnerability will make you vulnerable to conditions too, awesome. Constantly I see people complaining about how condi builds are worthless. Alright they did some tweaking to conditions and suddenly it’s OMFGCONDISR2OP!!!

Shadow.1345:

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Vulnerability will make you vulnerable to conditions too, awesome. Constantly I see people complaining about how condi builds are worthless. Alright they did some tweaking to conditions and suddenly it’s OMFGCONDISR2OP!!!

- that is why i said conerns and i did state that numbers are not out yet so it is all assumptions atm; i can leave my feedback however in hopes that Anet will tweak numbers with some common sense before patch goes live
- where did i say OMGUSUCKANET? OMFGCONDISR2OP?
- condi builds are not worthless, what do you think celestials are?

Cynz.9437:

Shadow.1345:

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Vulnerability will make you vulnerable to conditions too, awesome. Constantly I see people complaining about how condi builds are worthless. Alright they did some tweaking to conditions and suddenly it’s OMFGCONDISR2OP!!!

- that is why i said conerns and i did state that numbers are not out yet so it is all assumptions atm; i can leave my feedback however in hopes that Anet will tweak numbers with some common sense before patch goes live
- where did i say OMGUSUCKANET? OMFGCONDISR2OP?
- condi builds are not worthless, what do you think celestials are?

Poison + Burning + Celestials = kills condition-type builds.

ArenaNet failure to nerf Sigil of Doom is amazing. It’s one of the most toxic sigils in PvP and why Celestials is significantly more powerful than it should be. Burning and poison can easily deal 1k damage a second and reduce recovery. Why take other conditions? They are just a waste.

Shadow.1345:

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Not a good idea with GW2 considering how glacially slow Anet is when it comes to fixing balance issues. Best for players to analyze them now for a (small) chance Anet will listen.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cynz.9437:

Shadow.1345:

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Vulnerability will make you vulnerable to conditions too, awesome. Constantly I see people complaining about how condi builds are worthless. Alright they did some tweaking to conditions and suddenly it’s OMFGCONDISR2OP!!!

- that is why i said conerns and i did state that numbers are not out yet so it is all assumptions atm; i can leave my feedback however in hopes that Anet will tweak numbers with some common sense before patch goes live
- where did i say OMGUSUCKANET? OMFGCONDISR2OP?
- condi builds are not worthless, what do you think celestials are?

Poison + Burning + Celestials = kills condition-type builds.

ArenaNet failure to nerf Sigil of Doom is amazing. It’s one of the most toxic sigils in PvP and why Celestials is significantly more powerful than it should be. Burning and poison can easily deal 1k damage a second and reduce recovery. Why take other conditions? They are just a waste.

that is my point, you don’t even need to run pure condi build for them to be effective

certanly, the 700 condi dmg change will have impact
BUT (correct me here, i am not so sure about numbers) current celestial gives 438 condi dmg, with 10% nerf it will be 394~ condi dmg; 300? will be baseline after trait patch so any character with cele amy will already sit at 700 condi dmg? throw some might stacks and certain runes/sigils in and you got same celestial cancer running around doing way too much condi dmg

I kind of agree with OP. The changes make far more sense in PvE than they do in PvP.

The problem with condi builds in PvP isn’t that conditions need more damage, it’s that shoutbow and d/d ele can put out a lot of AOE cleanse. And part of the reason why teams bring so much AOE cleanse is because condi spam is so prevalent.

So I agree with OP about shifting condi application to the higher-CD skills, (although that’s already kind of the case w/ necro). And rather than increasing condi dmg (through vulnerability stacking or scaling), they should instead re-adjust both condi-application and condi-cleanse.

Also, the confusion change is obviously meant to cater to PvE’rs.

Cynz.9437:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Cynz.9437:

Shadow.1345:

Personally I’m gonna wait and see how it plays out before I jump to the OMFGUSUCKANET reaction because some things got changed.

Vulnerability will make you vulnerable to conditions too, awesome. Constantly I see people complaining about how condi builds are worthless. Alright they did some tweaking to conditions and suddenly it’s OMFGCONDISR2OP!!!

- that is why i said conerns and i did state that numbers are not out yet so it is all assumptions atm; i can leave my feedback however in hopes that Anet will tweak numbers with some common sense before patch goes live
- where did i say OMGUSUCKANET? OMFGCONDISR2OP?
- condi builds are not worthless, what do you think celestials are?

Poison + Burning + Celestials = kills condition-type builds.

ArenaNet failure to nerf Sigil of Doom is amazing. It’s one of the most toxic sigils in PvP and why Celestials is significantly more powerful than it should be. Burning and poison can easily deal 1k damage a second and reduce recovery. Why take other conditions? They are just a waste.

that is my point, you don’t even need to run pure condi build for them to be effective

certanly, the 700 condi dmg change will have impact
BUT (correct me here, i am not so sure about numbers) current celestial gives 438 condi dmg, with 10% nerf it will be 394~ condi dmg; 300? will be baseline after trait patch so any character with cele amy will already sit at 700 condi dmg? throw some might stacks and certain runes/sigils in and you got same celestial cancer running around doing way too much condi dmg

Nowhere did they said secondary stats would be baseline. That 300 condi damage is completely gone from traits and is being rebalanced by increasing its gain from gear and amulets. Cele builds will bee 6~10 might to reach 700+ condi damage.

The change was made to make investing into condition damage more worth while since as it is now in pvp and pve its essentially lacklustre compared to power damage because it a) takes time to ramp up, b) can be completely removed so wont do full damage, c) can now be completely ignored for small durations due to resistance.
With this change power builds will do next to no condition damage at all, cele builds will do low to average condition damage, like they are meant to, and condition builds will actually do a decent amount of condition damage like they need to to be competitive. How much more they will do than now has yet to be seen as well.

In short without might cele builds condi pressure will be so much lower, especially with the changes to poison and burn stacking in intensity. From the Dragon hunter video you can see that burn does base 150 on the parts when he is using the zerk amulet. As it is now because it does like 4~600 damage for them. Because it stacks in intensity it will be harder for them to keep it on us and ramp might for higher damage on it and any random burns wont do massive damage before falling off. Same with poison, this stacks in intensity means it wont last for extremely long times meaning you actually need to use it correctly to prevent healing. This is better since you need to be active with it instead of just stacking it as long as you can.

Stat wise cele builds will be weaker overall because of the loss of stats from traitlines. Also i fully expect conditions to have their durations looked at as well as condition duration getting the ferocity treatment and becoming a stat. If this happens then condition builds will have to branch out to decide if they want longer conditions or more defense. Even without that I dont see a problem with their only needing one stat because the damage is over time and they are meant to grind people down rather than instant power damage.

All in all i have no concerns about this change since in combination with the stat and trait changes it should bring a few things into line that were out of whack before. Cele builds namely as well as conditions being essentially meh.

i am not saying that vulerability change is bad, i am saying that spells applying condis need to be rebalanced to match direct dmg build costs

I dont agree with this. Condi damage takes a while for it to happen. An ability that can do 3k direct damage should have the same balance as one that does 3k condition damage because one is instant and the other isnt. Also if you have condition on you and someone stacks vuln to increase their pressure, or vica verca, then again i see no problem because they can be mitigated completely.

edit:
You can also see that vulnerability is working on condi in the dragon hunter video since after the trag goes burns go from 3.2k to 4.5k with 25% vuln and max condi damage due to carrion amulet.

Cynz.9437:

While buffs to condis may be welcome in pve i have following concerns about dmging condis:
- no counterplay to confusion anymore by not using any spells as condi removal also counts as action and might get you killed before you even clear those confusion stacks

What? If you get killed because damage was dealt when you cleansed yourself, then you have bigger issues here.

Cynz.9437:

- the play between vulnerability and condis:
now condis do more dmg while vulnerability is on target… all fine and good, the issue is condis already do considerable dmg (in pvp at least) and certanly it may be too early talk about it due to lack of numbers
BUT there is still that old investment problem – condis require only 1 stat to work (where direct dmg requires 2-3 stats for same effectivness), with duration reduction and stacking it will be even more the case meaning condi builds only need to invest into condi dmg and choose defensive stats (i really hope dire wont be added to pvp, it would be brutal).

My point is, with vulnerability buff it would make condis do way too much dmg imo and by all means they are not that hard to land (many come from massive, often unavoidable aoe or endless AA where high hitting direct dmg spells usually have CDs or some high requirements).

First of all, condi builds are inferior thanks to the meta. The meta went condi cleanse thanks to condi builds? Well Sherlock, that usually what happens when players try to out play another build.

Secondly, it wasn’t fair for Vulnerability to just effect melee users. Technically if some one is vulnerable, they should be Vulnerable in all aspects., as the wording suggests. Condi’s will potentially do more burst damage but can still get hard countered by any type of condi cleanses or Resistance boon. As if Condi builds had enough to worry about.

Cynz.9437:

- rebalance application of condis on weapons – move them to 2-5 weapon spells instead of stacking effects on AA (necros and mesmers come in mind) and aoe (sup combustive shot). So condi builds actually get punished if their spells missed/got dodged/blocked etc. just like for direct dmg builds.

Condition builds are already punished by either not focus targeting properly as a team, focus targeting the wrong person (a cleansing ele) or just doing it at a completely wrong time (guard uses Absolute Resolutiom, War uses shouts, etc). Do you realize the amount of counterplay condition builds already face? There’s a reason why we’re not meta.

Cynz.9437:

- Possibly make condi removing spells count not as action that will kill you before you clear those 10 stacks of confusion?

Again, that just sounds silly. I’ve never heard of cleansing a condition killing a person. It was always because they moved, used skills, and not cleansing the condition is why the person got downed in the first place.

Sorry if you’re glassy and expect 10 conditions to not kill you. Rock, Paper, Scissors bish.

ResJudicator.7916:

The problem with condi builds in PvP isn’t that conditions need more damage, it’s that shoutbow and d/d ele can put out a lot of AOE cleanse.

Except that isn’t the problem, condi builds have pretty much always been underrepresentated, the vast majority of meta builds in this game have been power based, really the only classes that have been reasonably well represented in the meta for long periods as actual condi builds were engi and ranger, and even then condi engi was never a default pick like bunker guard, thief, hambow/shoutbow and so on, until celestial engi which is more power than condi, actual condi builds have been a rarity in this game.

The condition changes stop short of actually fixing what’s wrong. They need to limit each class to 2 damaging conditions so we don’t have condition bombs that are the antithesis of what damage over time is all about. Make conditions last longer but lower the number of stacks that can be applied quickly. Condition removals need to be changed to remove a certain number of stacks, the number of stacks removed is increased by healing power. This way condition classes need to take time to build up their stacks while trying to survive and the stacks aren’t instantly removed from a single skill, the added benefit of healing power actually being more useful as well.

All this of course assumes that some of the DD builds are brought into line to tone down the fast TTK, but that’s a whole other can of worms.

if they gonna do smt then buff direct dmg so it dosent take longer to kill eachother as it already does

zinkz.7045:

ResJudicator.7916:

The problem with condi builds in PvP isn’t that conditions need more damage, it’s that shoutbow and d/d ele can put out a lot of AOE cleanse.

Except that isn’t the problem, condi builds have pretty much always been underrepresentated, the vast majority of meta builds in this game have been power based, really the only classes that have been reasonably well represented in the meta for long periods as actual condi builds were engi and ranger, and even then condi engi was never a default pick like bunker guard, thief, hambow/shoutbow and so on, until celestial engi which is more power than condi, actual condi builds have been a rarity in this game.

Terrormancer, condi engie, and spirit ranger were quite popular in the meta for a long while. I think it was the first WTS where most teams were running 1-2 spirit rangers, and shortly after that when terrormancer + condi engie became very popular. Terrormancer became a lot less popular when they overnerfed it due to dhuurmfire and hadn’t yet buffed PoC. Right now, condi classes are less effective because many teams run 2+ players who carry AOE cleansing. This wasn’t true before the celestial buff because there was a long period where cleansing water on ele had kitten ICD, and warriors pre-celestial didn’t run shoutbow.

Your point also doesn’t make much sense logically. Being “underrepresented” doesn’t mean a class is or was inherently weak. Most top teams only run one thief, so you could say that thief is “underrepresented,” but that obviously doesn’t mean that thief is weak. How “represented” a build is on a team depends on what roles the build fulfills, rather than how strong the class is. The fact that many teams ran only 1-2 condi builds before the celestial meta doesn’t mean that condi builds were weak back then, it just meant that teams still needed other roles to round out their comp.