Condi - Counterplay system

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Posted by: Redscope.6215

Redscope.6215

Here’s to hoping I don’t get flamed for this idea, but it seems to me that condition clearing isn’t enough because conditions are being applied way more often than was the case prior to release…due mostly to players understanding their immense power and playing the game better.

Instead of just giving a flat nerf to condi duration or coming up with some sort of new boon that eats condition duration (like we need any more boons/conditions), why don’t we implement a specific playstyle condition clearing system. When you play a certain way, it counters specific conditions. These would be outside of your class or build.

Some conditions have exceptions, but here’s a quick list of what I think you could make as hard condition counters:

  • Weakness – Landing attacks reduces Weakness duration
  • Vulnerability – Getting hit reduces 1 stack of intensity
  • Torment – Moving reduces Torment duration
  • Poison – Receiving HP reduces Poison duration
  • Immobilize – Attempting to jump reduces Immobilize duration
  • Fear – Exception Condition, counts as both a condition and a control effect
  • Cripple – Moving reduces Cripple duration
  • Confusion – Using a skill reduces 1 stack of intensity
  • Chilled – Acquiring Burn condition negates both
  • Burning – Dodge roll reduces burning duration
  • Blind – Already hard-countered with attacking
  • Bleed – Exception Condition, no counter but to clear

Fear, Chilled and Bleed are slight exceptions and here’s why. Bleed just straight-up does damage. There’s really no reason to hard-counter a condition that was meant simply to damage, not to control the way you play. Fear is always short, won’t stack, is removed by stunbreakers and you’re immune to it with Stability up. There’s enough counter to Fear.

Chilled should only last for short periods of time and classes who frequently apply Chilled are not without burning. The ele is a prime example here. If you have a Chilled target, it creates a situation where you don’t want to immediately swap to your Fire attunement and hit him with Burning. If you’ve just used a Freeze Grenade on your engi, you want to avoid the Flamethrower kit or stack Blowtorch with Rocket Kick. The necro would have to think about whether he’s building for crit and damage with burning or fear and chill…sort of a ‘hot’ necro or ‘cold’ necro.

Well you get the idea. I understand there would have to be a few skill tweaks and trait tweaks with classes that have specific applications and removals…that comes with the territory of a change like this.

I also realize that it might be too late in the game’s life for a change of this caliber…and if it is, its just too bad. This is exactly the kind of gameplay countering that should have existed in the first place.

Good, bad, thoughts, etc below…just please don’t flamewar about the condi meta, we’ve got enough of that.

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Posted by: Aquin.3192

Aquin.3192

I’ll log in to give this a thumbs up! Very creative thinking.

We all know conditions are delivering too much reward for the calculated effort contributed.

This is a good first step!

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Posted by: kirito.4138

kirito.4138

Why add more complexity?

Just revert or tone down some of the changes that buffed necro and spirit rangers.

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Posted by: TGSlasher.1458

TGSlasher.1458

Interesting ideas, but Burn and Chill counter, while realistic this would remove 2 of the Elementalist conditions, us eles don’t like being forced into changing but its they way our class was made. Also a few of our skills (utilities) apply burning or chill in all attunemnets (not to mention auto burning on crit)

Others are good ideas

Slasher Sladorian – Charr Warrior – [DECM] | Sea of Sorrows
Sophea Sladorian – Charr Ranger – [DECM] | Sea of Sorrows
Sophea Of Elements – Human Elementalist – [DECM] | Sea of Sorrows

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

Anet made cleansing terribly.
It’s their fault they tossed the easy way to make conditions dynamic out the door…. adding another large complication to the game… ehh… don’t see it helping at all.

Making conditions innately situational… that would have been great, like confusion was a short duration ‘attack denial’ sort of condition, chill really impacted something like dodging, bleed/burn weren’t raw dmg but involved actual conditions to pull notable numbers… you may say ‘but the game is already like that’… conditions have to be your only dmg source for any dmg one to be notable… that utterly kills situational conditions.
Anyways great potential, wasted by Anet…
kittening devs.

(edited by garethh.3518)

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Posted by: Oxygen.5918

Oxygen.5918

Good ideas. It’ll add a bit of skill to the game, which caps pretty early

I was the best at burning things. Especially bosses that
didn’t move.

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Posted by: ensoriki.5789

ensoriki.5789

It is an interesting idea…cripple should be standing still though.
Burning removing chill conflicts with the elementalist as well. Hell If I recall Rune of the Elementalist is burn and chill affiliated.

However adding these additions just feels unnecessary unless they’re doing a full revamp of things. Should just nerf crap.

The great forum duppy.

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Posted by: Rozbuska.5263

Rozbuska.5263

Great ideas here for sure.

Tekkit Mojo – Engineer
Tekkit’s Workshop

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Learn to use condition remove spells =)

trait + spells
Thief 5x
Guardian 14x
Necro 9x
etc

All class have 4+ condition remove spells. Problem is the players who instead of use condition remove spell go on forum and start cry.

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Dirame.8521

Dirame.8521

For Eles, just add a trait called Cold Fire or Hot Ice; Applying Burning on chill or vice versa does not cancel one or the other.

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Posted by: Sabull.5670

Sabull.5670

Umm some of those suggestions fight against the whole point of the condition. Which is not cool at all. The premise idea of something like this is nice but the suggestions are bad. Suprised why nobody picked on this. Actually these are the exact
opposites what should happen.

" quote
-Weakness – Landing attacks reduces Weakness duration
% instead of “i got weakness, let me cleverly wait it to run out before I unleash my burst, or spend my time healing/ conditions instead” —> “just spam weakness off”

-Vulnerability – Getting hit reduces 1 stack of intensity
% hmm alright

-Torment – Moving reduces Torment duration
% “I have 5 torments on him! Now he has to stand still for not to kill himself” —> “meh just keep running, torment countered by just ignoring it existing”

-Poison – Receiving HP reduces Poison duration
% " I shall wait the poison to run out before using my heal" → “fuk dat just ignore poison and heal will do best”

-Immobilize – Attempting to jump reduces Immobilize duration
% hmm ok nothing wrong on this direction

- Fear – Exception Condition, counts as both a condition and a control effect
% don’t quite understand whats the difference here? For stunbreaker or what?

- Cripple – Moving reduces Cripple duration
% “meh just ignore cripple instead of target swap, or using movement skill to remove it. Just keep running”

-Confusion – Using a skill reduces 1 stack of intensity
%" 10 stacks of confusion! better stop attacking" → “spam spam”

-Chilled – Acquiring Burn condition negates both
% ok thats a idea. But hope it doesnt happen.
-Burning – Dodge roll reduces burning duration
% ok thats a idea too.
- Blind – Already hard-countered with attacking
% yep
-Bleed – Exception Condition, no counter but to clear
"

Torment already is example of a nice condition. Does more damage if you move → target does quick calculation and decides to target swap for a closer target.
Tbh Torment should do zero damage is standing still. Total opposite of your suggestion which is “torment wants to stop you, meh just keep running”.

[TA]

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Posted by: Marduh.4603

Marduh.4603

Fear

1 second daze replaces the 4 second stun
Fear easy stacking

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Posted by: Myrmidian Eudoros.4671

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671

The reason why condis are running rampant at present is that more conditions were introduced to the game without introducing more cleanses, and Weakness got a massive buff making direct damage much less effective than had previously been the case.

While I agree that condi’s need more counter-play, I think there is a better way than what you have suggested staring us all in the face. The Field/Finisher system is completely under-utilized in its current incarnation, and I think that this would be a terrific way to add depth to combat while also introducing better condition mitigation. A number of the cleanse skills are badly in need of buffs to remove more condi’s than they currently do, but taking the time to further develop the cross-profession combo playability would make the game a lot more fun and allow for more specialization/customization in team comps.

Suggestion:
Cleansing Bolts (whirl finisher + light field) – Buff to cleanse 3 or 4 condis

Leeching Bolts (Whirl + Dark) – Change to Corrupted Bolts transfer 3-4 conditions to struck foes

Blast Finish + Ethereal Field – Remove 2 Conditions + Area Chaos Armor

There is a ton of other stuff they could do with combo fields (water needs to be nerfed anyway), and I think these are reasonable places to start.