Guild Wars 2

I think one of the biggest arguments I see when constructing a build is “power takes more skill than condi” and there is a little truth to that in theory. However, I feel like I’ve seen these so called “faceroll” builds in the form of both. yeah there were issues with condi necros, mesmers, etc. but remember pew pew ranger, dragonhunter, turret engi, rampage warrior? I won’t include revenant pre patch because for as strong as it is, I felt like you had to know what you were doing (I’m a personal fail revenant but thats just me lol)

As someone who has different builds on different characters, I say play what you enjoy. If you’re doing good in your matches play what you’re good at.

It’s not the damage type it’s the ability, for those builds, to sustain which is the issue.

There’s easy builds and hard builds to play for both direct and condition damage, there’s not really a “direct require more skills than condi” things, they both require some skills and there’s builds for both that can be played blinded smashing the keyboard still doing good.

The great problem in sPvP is not the source of your damage but the way you can inflict it and survive at the same time.

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

engi

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

Depends on specific options.

Ie, Viper condirupt (Mistrust) mesmer with Duelling/Illusions/Chrono, Sw/F + GS, MoD requires more skill to play than Demolisher power mesmer with Chaos/Inspiration/Chrono, Sw/Sh and so on…

It’s individual weapons, traits and skills that provide the crutches in terms of survivability – for example Shield and Inspiration, which is independent of damage type.

Sure the easiest condi build is in general easier than the easiest power build – hence the current meta condi chrono – but below that there is a whole spectrum of what is more or less easy to be successful with, regardless of power/condi/hybrid.

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

engi, ranger, guardian, revenant, ele.

Most of us play meta builds.
They are all strong builds with relatively low skill floor.
But it still doesn’t change the fact that better players will always come out on top. Many of those builds can still have high skill ceiling at the same time.

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

If you’re talking about PvP (not WvW):

- Engie (condi is waaaay harder than meta scrapper)
- Rev (post Ret nerfs)
- Meta Mesmer (condi is way easier to pick up, but overall more complex so harder to master, at least according to many ESL mesmer players)
- Mistrust Mesmer (no inspiration, relies largely on landing interrupts for condi spike)

The fact is that many condi builds now run carrion, which is about on par with marauder in terms of survivability (marauder even has more overall stats). Same deal if you compare rabid with demolisher. Both power and condi builds typically rely on the same defensive traits (except power mes also uses stealth).

But with power, your damage is straightforward. With condi, you have to time your bursts around your opponent’s condi cleanse, and interrupt their key cleanse skills (like DH F2, mesmer well, engie heal turret, etc.). As a condi build, letting your opponent get a cleanse skill off is like giving them a 5k+ heal. You don’t have that problem with a power build.

Of course is this completely different in WvW, where stealth-camping condi builds are braindead easy and way more forgiving than power builds. Part of the reason is that you have more gear and food/utility options in WvW, the other part is that you don’t have to worry about capping a point. I know this is a PvP forum, but I noticed that a lot of the people who want to discuss balance here come from WvW.

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

engi, ranger, guardian, revenant, ele.

Add necro there. Power being worse than condi doesnt change that power reaper is a build without any deep mechanics that plays around proc bursts

ResJudicator.7916:

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

If you’re talking about PvP (not WvW):

- Engie (condi is waaaay harder than meta scrapper)
- Rev (post Ret nerfs)
- Meta Mesmer (condi is way easier to pick up, but overall more complex so harder to master, at least according to many ESL mesmer players)
- Mistrust Mesmer (no inspiration, relies largely on landing interrupts for condi spike)

The fact is that many condi builds now run carrion, which is about on par with marauder in terms of survivability (marauder even has more overall stats). Same deal if you compare rabid with demolisher. Both power and condi builds typically rely on the same defensive traits (except power mes also uses stealth).

But with power, your damage is straightforward. With condi, you have to time your bursts around your opponent’s condi cleanse, and interrupt their key cleanse skills (like DH F2, mesmer well, engie heal turret, etc.). As a condi build, letting your opponent get a cleanse skill off is like giving them a 5k+ heal. You don’t have that problem with a power build.

Of course is this completely different in WvW, where stealth-camping condi builds are braindead easy and way more forgiving than power builds. Part of the reason is that you have more gear and food/utility options in WvW, the other part is that you don’t have to worry about capping a point. I know this is a PvP forum, but I noticed that a lot of the people who want to discuss balance here come from WvW.

I agree – it can be much more straightforward to kill people with power builds than condi, and survival is not much different.

For example I consider the GS2/(blink)/F1/MoD/GS3 totally brainless to execute – and it can destroy majority of someone’s health pool – with the only problem being passive survival traits/procs. It is no different to a condi bomb such as F5/(blink)/MirrorImages/F321, and I often see it treated as a mindless rotation rather than using the skills situationally in combination.

Speaking of wvw the only issue I have against condi isn’t the builds as such, it’s the gear – ie Dire and Trailblazer which when used in combination with things like PU make for “broken” builds. Ideally I’d change Dire to Condi/precision/vitality or something (get rid of one defensive stat), and I’d change Trailblazer to Condi/vitality/Precision/toughness with both defensive stats being secondary. Either that or make one defensive stat primary and delete the other.

In pvp there is little difference in sustain from amulet stats between power and condi (ie Marauder and Carrion as mentioned), instead more a reliance on crutch traits and skills which both condi and power builds use.

Condi scrapper harder than power? Eh maybe.
Revs no
Necro no
Mesmer no
Thief no
Warrior no
Druid eh the class requires such little skill period it’s almost a wash
Guardian I would say even
Ele condi easier.

Classes like ele, druid, DH don’t have the amulet to support the condi builds.

So honestly engineer I would say definitely.

Forgot to add that the PvP team has kept most of the condi builds in check by removal of amulets. That and the fact this is a conquest game is why most condi builds aren’t seeing more play. Take for example condi mesmer before HoT. Completely not viable but infinitely easier than power.

Pvp amulet restrictions help a lot. Wvw a build with 20k to 30k hp and 3k toughness can drop a 5k burn tic on you with a macro. Some of the argument may be carrying over from that.

Pvp is probably more balanced.

Yeah I get the sense Azukas is coming from WvW land, which I have nothing against. Those conclusions just don’t apply to PvP-Conquest for all the reasons explained in this thread.

ResJudicator.7916:

Yeah I get the sense Azukas is coming from WvW land, which I have nothing against. Those conclusions just don’t apply to PvP-Conquest for all the reasons explained in this thread.

No I’m not I’m simply stating condi is,easier to play in general to power. The only class i can see otherwise is engineer but condi scrapper vs power in my eyes is,a wash. Out of my characters I don’t play that one,enough so I gave it to y’all.

The fact that amulets are regulated along with the conquest game type are the reasons lots of the most cancerous builds are not in pvp

Azukas.1426:

Condi scrapper harder than power? Eh maybe.
Revs no
Necro no
Mesmer no
Thief no
Warrior no
Druid eh the class requires such little skill period it’s almost a wash
Guardian I would say even
Ele condi easier.

Classes like ele, druid, DH don’t have the amulet to support the condi builds.

So honestly engineer I would say definitely.

Forgot to add that the PvP team has kept most of the condi builds in check by removal of amulets. That and the fact this is a conquest game is why most condi builds aren’t seeing more play. Take for example condi mesmer before HoT. Completely not viable but infinitely easier than power.

I think there needs to be clarity and a distinction between discussing only top tier meta builds and discussing all other possible builds.

Taking mesmer again as an example (because it is the most familiar for me to comment on) – sure the meta condi Chrono is easier to play and more successful than the “best” power build – largely down to the overpoweredness of Shield and Inspiration (which can also be used in power builds). That is why it is meta.

Below this level though are many shades of grey with some power builds being easier than condi and vice versa.

Coming back to this example – surely you can’t say that a Viper Duelling/Illusions/Chrono GS+Sw/P condirupt build requires less skill than a Marauder/Demolisher Chaos/Inspiration/Chrono GS+Sw/Sh power build? The latter has far more brainless damage mitigation, passive boon procs and sustain whereas the former is 100% glass with barely any condi cleanse. The latter can unload huge burst effortlessly while maintaining that sustain and even keep possession of a node for a while (especially if using staff instead), and while the former can unload a large aoe condi burst that can wreck a teamfight, it requires time to tick and it lacks the brainless sustain to survive while waiting for condis to tick so requires allies to babysit.

In general the sustain of mesmer boils down to Inspiration and Shield (in wvw though it can also be Chaos/PU), which ought to be carefully rebalanced at the same time as the overpowered sustain of other elite specs.

Well also conditions will still tick while people are blocking, when direct damage will just be completely blocked.

Just like others, I think conditions can be played too safely thanks to amulets granting defensive stats. So for many professions, there is high reward for very few risk.
Also, while cleansing conditions is a means to defend yourself, it can be hard for some professions with few cleansing skills to survive when many conditions are applied at the same time. I mean in a teamfight where a necro will inflict bleeds, a guard burn, and a mesmer confusion, cleansing will be hard considering they are pretty much bursts as well.

But I agree also, some power builds are quite easy to play. Pew pew ranger was a good example I think. High damage from 1200 range with many escape skills…

Once again, I think elite specs brought too much amazing skills – aoe cc, blocks, etc – and permitted classes to be able to do almost everything.

Konakona.4130:

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

engi

Depends if it’s a core spec or not. Core power rifle is far harder than a p/p condi build if both the specs are core. I definitely agree that power scrapper would be easier to succeed with over condi scrapper though.

Pomdepin.7068:

Well also conditions will still tick while people are blocking, when direct damage will just be completely blocked.

Just like others, I think conditions can be played too safely thanks to amulets granting defensive stats. So for many professions, there is high reward for very few risk.

You can block conditions just as well as you can block power dmg. You just have to block the application of the dmg, not after you got hit. And at least in PvP, condi builds don’t have more defensive stats than power builds.

Sure they can be blocked, I meant, once it is applied damage will tick even if you intend to block.

Power builds usually use marauder which gives 560 vita, carrion is 900. Simple fact, power builds need 3 offensive and dependant stats to work (power, preci, fero), when condi builds only need one (condi dmg). Rest is free stats, vita, power, whatever you want. Power should need less, or condi more imo. Question of equity.

Pomdepin.7068:

when condi builds only need one (condi dmg).

This is false, condi builds use condi dmg and expertise, and in most cases precision. (most condi traitlines have on-crit traits that require the precision, also sigils)

A condi build that only has condi dmg will not be dealing equivalent damage to power build running marauders or beserker. This is easy to test too, simply parse a meta condi build with dire stats on the raid golem, and compare it to a meta power build with marauder gear.

I know, what you meant and it doesn’t make sense. You can not block power dmg that got already applied, why should it be different with conditions?

Power builds use marauder or paladin, the latter gives more defensive stats than any condi amulet. And some condi builds use wanderer amulet, which gives exactly as much defensive stats as marauder (toughness instead of vitality, but the latter is better in most cases anyways).

The underlying issue is that many people don’t know how to distinguish between condis generated by autoattacks, which do way less damage than power autoattacks, and condis generated by key skills. They blow all their cleanses on the autoattack condis, and then facetank the condi burst. But since this is condi, the condi burst doesn’t feel like it’s killing them until the other guy is back to autoattacking or using defensive skills, so they feel like they just died to “passive” damage.

Here’s a clear example: When people fight a power war, they know to dodge the Axe F1. If you facetank the eviscerate, you see your health drop by 10k+. You obviously know not to blow your dodges, blinds, and invulns etc. against the autoattacks.

When people who complain about condis fight a condi war, they get hit with on-swap sigils, see a bunch of condis on their bar, and then cleanse. Then they facetank the Mace f1 (which literally functions the same as eviscerate in terms of how hard it is to land). Then they slowly die to confusion over the next few seconds, thinking that they’re taking “passive” damage.

Part of the problem is the GW2 UI doesn’t give sufficient information about condi damage. When you take a 10k power hit, you see the big “10,000” in red. But whether you take a 500dmg bleed stack (from autoattacks) or a 3k bleedstack, it looks about the same on your condi bar.

The other part is that a lot of people who complain about condi builds just don’t know them well enough, so they see it as “spam spam spam apply condis run around win,” which obviously isn’t the case.

Azukas.1426:

What condi build is harder to play then a power build for the same class?

Engi, but once you get it down and are patient with it, it’ll come together.