Guild Wars 2

zapv.8051:

If you think condi ranger, condi mes, condi engi, condi guard, condi war, condi necro, or condi ele are a problem you need to l2p. No one good runs any of those builds with the possible exception of condi guard, and even that is at best balanced and realistically still pretty easy to counter.

I wouldn’t say I’m the best but I’m definitely good and I play condi ranger. Saying that no one good plays those builds is kind of extreme since I frequently encounter burn guards, condi mes and condi engi.

to me is much more simple:
how to counter dps burst build? get 1 stat called armor (or learn to dodge the one burst? since i’m running berserker no need even armor to counter other dps class, just avoid their burst and drop mine)
how to counter condi damage? change your entire build or even utilities to have condi cleansers. No matter how much defence stats you have, the condi damage will always be the same

Make your calculation and think if its really fair to go condi damage builds.

So is very simple to balance: make condi damage be affected by armor stat. Make cleanser skills only work against condi that not deal damage, like weakness cripple chill immobilize and whatever. Since a warrior dps would be happy to use a cleanse on weakness instead of being forced to wait using it for the condi burning/confusion burst.
Another chance would be remove all the instant/trait proc condi apply, so that there will be always a decent number of condi cleanser compared to the condi application.
I’m ok on a condi burst caused by a skill like purging flame, that can be seen and dodged just like an eviscerate, but i’m not okay on all the condi spam autoattack that is happening nowadays…

Oh also i forgot: make protection and weakness working against condi damage, to be totaly fair

I think the best thing to remember is that outside from condi having very HARD counters (Diamond Skin being one that hasn’t been mentioned yet) this is a team game. So if you happen to be weak against condi builds, don’t 1v1 them and if your whole team is weak against them that is bad team synergy.

Counters to condi damage : Vitality , Resistence , Condi cleanse , condi duration reduction , anti-condition mechs (diamond skin, zerker stances , etc ) , blinds / evades / invuln.

Playing Both, condi and zerker builds , i find both to be equaly difficult to play and they both have their counters.

What makes this game feel fustrating —> PASSIVE PROCS.

Abimes.9726:

Counters to condi damage : Vitality , Resistence , Condi cleanse , condi duration reduction , anti-condition mechs (diamond skin, zerker stances , etc ) , blinds / evades / invuln.

Playing Both, condi and zerker builds , i find both to be equaly difficult to play and they both have their counters.

What makes this game feel fustrating —> PASSIVE PROCS.

Vitality is not a counter to condition damage. Vitality overall isn’t a very good stat unless you can refill the healthpool.

There are like 3 classes that can make use of vitality: Ele, Guardian and Necro.

Necro only because his lifeforce pool is also affected by vitality and is recharged in relatives instead of absolutes. Without a way to refill the missing additional health from vitality there is no point in having a higher healthpool. 8k health without cleanses is like 2s of burning. That is not going to save you.

Vitality is a counter to conditions and 8 k burn on 2 sec …. no way or your just facetanking a burn guard without using one dodge.

simply vitality decrease condi burst effectivness and allow to presure back where a non vitality build would have died.

wherever you find it usefull or not is not my problem , btw if you look in pvp most ppl run marauder ( extra vitality) instead of zerk to prevent those 1 shot burst (condi or power).

BTW most complains are about burning (why din’t you call the thread : “nerf burn plz”)

Condi builds are low skill builds. Too much damage for such little effort.

ragnarokda.1805:

zapv.8051:

If you think condi ranger, condi mes, condi engi, condi guard, condi war, condi necro, or condi ele are a problem you need to l2p. No one good runs any of those builds with the possible exception of condi guard, and even that is at best balanced and realistically still pretty easy to counter.

I wouldn’t say I’m the best but I’m definitely good and I play condi ranger. Saying that no one good plays those builds is kind of extreme since I frequently encounter burn guards, condi mes and condi engi.

I apologize for insulting you. Let me rephrase my original statement. No one really really good plays any of the condi builds except condi guard in a competitive environment.

I love how all those people are screaming “PvP is sooo boring” “No-one plays PvP anymore” “(insert QQ here)”, and my queue waiting time is decreasing since the patches.

Just deal with the diversity. If you see 3 engineers and 1 mesmer in the other team, just change your gear, or switch your char. If not, then try to avoid them or help your team in another way. Just asking for A-Net’s help so you don’t have to change your game style is pathetic.

And for the record, I play condition and regular builds equally, and I win and loose equally. So, it all depends on you, your team-mates (if playing random) and of course the other team.

Crudelis.8640:

I love how all those people are screaming “PvP is sooo boring” “No-one plays PvP anymore” “(insert QQ here)”, and my queue waiting time is decreasing since the patches.

Really, really bad logic. Queue times are easy to adjust based on the matchmaking. They could give everyone a 30 second queue if they wanted by just pairing together the first 10 people who queue.

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse. There are 7 sources of resistance in the game ( 1 of which is in a traitline nobody takes for Mesmer. Guardian, Necro and Engie all acquire it unreliably through converting a condition into said boon, which leaves 1 RELIABLE source of resistance IN THE GAME, which comes from warrior using healing signet ). Most condition builds have the same burst damage as a power build and are safer to play ( apply conditions then LoS / pop invuln / run away / etc ) . Don’t even get me started on the damage scaling of Confusion / Torment/ Burning.

Anet either needs to change the way conditions work, or bring more baseline cleanses into the game. There is no equivalent to Protection, Weakness, Block, or evade for conditions. My proposed change to conditions would be either: Remove 50% condition duration on ALL CONDITIONS on you when you evade BASELINE / make condition cleanses significantly easier to come by across the board / Make coniditions actually scale with time ( IE: When 12 stacks of burning are applied, it would do the same amount of damage over the duration, it would just start with low damage ticks and increase over time according to duration / stacks) making it actually damage over time and not BOOM 12 stacks of burning you’re ticking for 25% of your hp every second.

The current state of conditions / celestial in PvP is a joke.

GrandHaven.1052:

They literally are getting carried to higher levels of play because lower tiers do not know how to deal with conditions and so they become more common across most tiers.

Fighting a team with 4 condi heavy players makes the game completely unfun, whether they win or not. Conditions promote bad play and pollute the game.

Its simply not fun to have face such condi heavy comps.

Despite popular belief conditions have LESS counterplay than power.

Conditions are too effective at lower tiers and needs to be adjusted on a PER build/skill basis. Thank you.

EDIT :
Source for this :

I run a guild that teaches PvP. We are not pros but we can handle ourself.

MOST if not all of the new players default to condi heavy builds because they are easier and more forgiven and then quickly and consistently face players that are completely above their skill level to such an extend that they don’t even have a chance in 1v1 or even the slightest idea how to play PVP.

I fought several top players and I found that condi mes, cele engi, signet necro are currently best condi class i guess

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

Some of you actually seem to think that burning is balancing right now.

style.6173:

Some of you actually seem to think that burning is balancing right now.

Have you fought a necro using Wetfire?

style.6173:

Some of you actually seem to think that burning is balancing right now.

Burning in and of itself is fine. There are lots of factors, though, that put it over the top.

For example, you’re a lot more concerned about the burning from an Ele than a Necro, even if their condition damage is the same. Application rate is everything for this particular comparison.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

no wonder these players think condi is OP. they aren’t smart enough to think of blocking or evading the attacks that apply the condis. I thought it would be obvious that that’s what I meant, but no some people hadn’t even thought of it.

maybe it’s because I have a wvw roaming background so I’ve had to fight condi builds. either you learn how to deal with condis in roaming or you spend all your time in downstate. it’s not just burning either, confusion, torment etc they will all kill you. condi hits much harder in wvw too, but then again so does power (4k hammer autos on warrior bruhh).

zapv.8051:

ragnarokda.1805:

zapv.8051:

If you think condi ranger, condi mes, condi engi, condi guard, condi war, condi necro, or condi ele are a problem you need to l2p. No one good runs any of those builds with the possible exception of condi guard, and even that is at best balanced and realistically still pretty easy to counter.

I wouldn’t say I’m the best but I’m definitely good and I play condi ranger. Saying that no one good plays those builds is kind of extreme since I frequently encounter burn guards, condi mes and condi engi.

I apologize for insulting you. Let me rephrase my original statement. No one really really good plays any of the condi builds except condi guard in a competitive environment.

I think top players don’t use heavy condi pressure because good teams can counter that type of dmg very easily. I think to a top play burst condi builds are more forgiving because if you mess up and don’t evade crucial condi burst skills then you can rely on a cleanse. A lot more forgiving than being Insta gibbed by power burst.

Condition pressure is just has more counter play in a high skill cap environment and in un ranked and ranked matches typically people won’t be that coordinated.

choovanski.5462:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

no wonder these players think condi is OP. they aren’t smart enough to think of blocking or evading the attacks that apply the condis

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

no wonder these players think condi is OP. they aren’t smart enough to think of blocking or evading the attacks that apply the condis

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

That sounds like you’re talking about Condi Mesmers. Let’s look at Mesmer autoattack condi application…

Ether Bolt: 2s Torment (it tickles). Ether Blast: 3s Torment (stop that!). Ether Clone: nothing.

Winds of Chaos: 33% chance 7s Bleed (yawn). 33% chance 1s Burning (wow so OP). 33% 5s Vulnerability (I am undone!).

I think you’re very confused. 10 stacks of Confusion and Torment simply isn’t going to come from a Mesmer’s autoattack, Mesmers don’t even have Confusion on autoattack. What happened is you ate a few full Shatters, one of the most obviously telegraphed and easily avoidable bursts.

Yeah, the more I read this thread the more I’m convinced (not that I wasn’t already) that this is mostly a L2P issue. The people complaining about condi builds don’t even know what’s going on.

Embolism.8106:

That sounds like you’re talking about Condi Mesmers. Let’s look at Mesmer autoattack condi application…

Ether Bolt: 2s Torment (it tickles). Ether Blast: 3s Torment (stop that!). Ether Clone: nothing.

Winds of Chaos: 33% chance 7s Bleed (yawn). 33% chance 1s Burning (wow so OP). 33% 5s Vulnerability (I am undone!).

I think you’re very confused. 10 stacks of Confusion and Torment simply isn’t going to come from a Mesmer’s autoattack, Mesmers don’t even have Confusion on autoattack. What happened is you ate a few full Shatters, one of the most obviously telegraphed and easily avoidable bursts.

Yeah, the more I read this thread the more I’m convinced (not that I wasn’t already) that this is mostly a L2P issue. The people complaining about condi builds don’t even know what’s going on.

STOP calling L2P. kitten its the most toxic and frustrating terms in existence! Broken kitten record.

Are you DENYING that Condi mesmer is too strong? Has too much free pressure with ridiculous amount of defence?
Because if you are, i think you might have a problem.
I personally dont care for it because condi mesmer has no cap presence, that does not mean the build is way to strong though. WvW is invested with condi mesmers.

GrandHaven.1052:

STOP calling L2P. kitten its the most toxic and frustrating terms in existence! Broken kitten record.

Are you DENYING that Condi mesmer is too strong? Has too much free pressure with ridiculous amount of defence?
Because if you are, i think you might have a problem.
I personally dont care for it because condi mesmer has no cap presence, that does not mean the build is way to strong though. WvW is invested with condi mesmers.

My point is if you don’t even know what you’re talking about (as the quoted poster proved) then chances are your complaints are more a reflection on your own skill rather than whatever you’re accusing.

And this thread talks about MMR. That means it’s about sPvP, not WvW. Wait, you’re the OP so you should know.

Embolism.8106:

My point is if you don’t even know what you’re talking about (as the quoted poster proved) then chances are your complaints are more a reflection on your own skill rather than whatever you’re accusing.

And this thread talks about MMR. That means it’s about sPvP, not WvW. Wait, you’re the OP so you should know.

Well aware. But the poster you quoted is NOT wrong. He used condi mesmer as an example which IN CONTEXT might have been wrong. The POINT is still there and NOT incorrect.
You just chose to nitpick and call L2P, because you know? thats the cool thing to do.

Embolism.8106:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

no wonder these players think condi is OP. they aren’t smart enough to think of blocking or evading the attacks that apply the condis

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Ether Bolt: 2s Torment (it tickles). Ether Blast: 3s Torment (stop that!). Ether Clone: nothing.

Winds of Chaos: 33% chance 7s Bleed (yawn). 33% chance 1s Burning (wow so OP). 33% 5s Vulnerability (I am undone!).
.

Wow! Great response! You really proved your point by saying things like ’ it tickles ’, ’ yawn ’ and ’stop that! ’. Just another delusional nutjob trying to justify his abuse of over the top condition damage scaling.

Bumy.8057:

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Really? Lets take a look at the AA’s of the “relevant” classes:

Condi mesmer: slow, single stack torment, or slow bleeds/burn from staff (<<1k dmg auto).
Condi necro: slow, single stack bleed or poison.
Condi guard: No condi on AA. 1 stack of burning every kittens (a ~1k stack)
Condi ranger: No condi on AA.
Cele ele: No condi on fire attunement AA.

And wait, what? Why shouldn’t a condi build be able to apply condi’s on auto’s? power builds have burst attacks and still hit (hard) on auto’s, why should a condi build be any different?

My guess is, if you are QQing because a condi build killed you, that player would have killed you just as easily on a power build.

Salamander.2504:

Bumy.8057:

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Really? Lets take a look at the AA’s of the “relevant” classes:

Condi mesmer: slow, single stack torment, or slow bleeds/burn from staff (<<1k dmg auto).
Condi necro: slow, single stack bleed or poison.
Condi guard: No condi on AA. 1 stack of burning every kittens (a ~1k stack)
Condi ranger: No condi on AA.
Cele ele: No condi on fire attunement AA.

And wait, what? Why shouldn’t a condi build be able to apply condi’s on auto’s? power builds have burst attacks and still hit (hard) on auto’s, why should a condi build be any different?

My guess is, if you are QQing because a condi build killed you, that player would have killed you just as easily on a power build.

i dont know any condi player that playing a berserker build can beat me
Reason? condi is based on attrition and skill rotationin, so a condi player will have average slower reaction times combo and less reflex than a pure burst player!!!

Salamander.2504:

Bumy.8057:

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Really? Lets take a look at the AA’s of the “relevant” classes:

Condi mesmer: slow, single stack torment, or slow bleeds/burn from staff (<<1k dmg auto).
Condi necro: slow, single stack bleed or poison.
Condi guard: No condi on AA. 1 stack of burning every kittens (a ~1k stack)
Condi ranger: No condi on AA.
Cele ele: No condi on fire attunement AA.

And wait, what? Why shouldn’t a condi build be able to apply condi’s on auto’s? power builds have burst attacks and still hit (hard) on auto’s, why should a condi build be any different?

My guess is, if you are QQing because a condi build killed you, that player would have killed you just as easily on a power build.

No condi players generally aren’t able to perform nearly as well with power builds.

Defending condi mesmer at this point in time really illustrates a person’s lack of wanting the game balanced and skill based.

aniway we aren’t going aniway with these discussions, if people love condi meta and adapt to it then is what we will have in pvp. If people really dislike it, pvp will lose more and more players cuz people will stop to play (what is happening nowadays).
I’ve always tought that a build based on pure condition damage should never have exist, i have always just seen condition as a support of damage during the time and attrition not as a burst, and that arenanet should have tought better mechanics ways to diversify classes than one been good with condi and one been good on pure dps.

These are my last toughts on current meta.

Shala.8352:

i dont know any condi player that playing a berserker build can beat me
Reason? condi is based on attrition and skill rotationin, so a condi player will have average slower reaction times combo and less reflex than a pure burst player!!!

T raw.4658:

No condi players generally aren’t able to perform nearly as well with power builds.

Defending condi mesmer at this point in time really illustrates a person’s lack of wanting the game balanced and skill based.

Do you guys only play one class, and one build? You never try other styles of play?

Is it truly beyond belief that there are players who excel at both condi and power builds?

I’m almost speechless.

Salamander.2504:

Shala.8352:

i dont know any condi player that playing a berserker build can beat me
Reason? condi is based on attrition and skill rotationin, so a condi player will have average slower reaction times combo and less reflex than a pure burst player!!!

T raw.4658:

No condi players generally aren’t able to perform nearly as well with power builds.

Defending condi mesmer at this point in time really illustrates a person’s lack of wanting the game balanced and skill based.

Do you guys only play one class, and one build? You never try other styles of play?

Is it truly beyond belief that there are players who excel at both condi and power builds?

I’m almost speechless.

Yes i played mesmer, both dps/shatter (wich i liked) and condi mesmer (wich literalyy made me fall asleep cuz of the slow and low skill gameplay involved, i was literaly like immortal and my opponents would have eventualy always die after time).

Tried also many other classes on condi gameplay, but less time spend on them, cuz the result was the same as with condi mesmer. Main reason was that i felt somehow sad to see my opponents dieing while i wasnt hitting them.

GrandHaven.1052:

…

Bumy.8057:

…

k so, I’ll agree with you both that burning application is somewhat over bearing on certain classes but aside from those 2 offenders (burn guard and ele) condition damage is weaker than power builds for two main reasons:

1. Condition damage as I have gone over numerous times here is cleanse able at any point in time during the encounter you can erase their build up.
2. Condition damage application for the most part is avoidable by not steeping onto fields or by dodging that skill that applies conditions to as you would with a power skill.

Conditions by all accounts have twice as many options at your disposal to deal with compared to the just outright power damage. Now I do agree with you that new or lower skilled players will struggle against condition damage for two reasons:

1. Many players do not know how or when to cleanse a condition. This only really comes with playtime experience and knowing the limit of your build.
2. Many players do not recognize the animations of condition skills. Therefore they cannot dodge or avoid them. This is mainly because power based builds have been so prevalent for so long.

To anyone that struggles with certain builds/classes with conditions(this isn’t exclusive to condition base builds btw) go play them. You’ll learn very quickly the ins out of the build that is giving you so much trouble and often realize that after they burn their cool downs most of these builds have nothing but an auto attack for the next 20 seconds. If you can figure out which two skills it usually is that you need to dodge or cleanse, your opponent for the most part becomes substantially weaker and easier to deal with.

This is why its considered a learn to play issue. You do not under stand the opponent your playing against and/or how to manage your skills for the matchup.

Eval.2371:

GrandHaven.1052:

…

Bumy.8057:

…

k so, I’ll agree with you both that burning application is somewhat over bearing on certain classes but aside from those 2 offenders (burn guard and ele) condition damage is weaker than power builds for two main reasons:

1. Condition damage as I have gone over numerous times here is cleanse able at any point in time during the encounter you can erase their build up.
2. Condition damage application for the most part is avoidable by not steeping onto fields or by dodging that skill that applies conditions to as you would with a power skill.

Conditions by all accounts have twice as many options at your disposal to deal with compared to the just outright power damage. Now I do agree with you that new or lower skilled players will struggle against condition damage for two reasons:

1. Many players do not know how or when to cleanse a condition. This only really comes with playtime experience and knowing the limit of your build.
2. Many players do not recognize the animations of condition skills. Therefore they cannot dodge or avoid them. This is mainly because power based builds have been so prevalent for so long.

To anyone that struggles with certain builds/classes with conditions(this isn’t exclusive to condition base builds btw) go play them. You’ll learn very quickly the ins out of the build that is giving you so much trouble and often realize that after they burn their cool downs most of these builds have nothing but an auto attack for the next 20 seconds. If you can figure out which two skills it usually is that you need to dodge or cleanse, your opponent for the most part becomes substantially weaker and easier to deal with.

This is why its considered a learn to play issue. You do not under stand the opponent your playing against and/or how to manage your skills for the matchup.

And wich skills/trait you change to “manage yourself” against a heavy burst team? Dont you just switch amulet from berserker to marauder or soldier if you see 2 shatter/dps mesmers? Are you even totaly change your build like you are doing against condi groups?
You know what is the main used food in wvw? the -40% condition duration… guess why

Marauder or soldier is useless against burst without additional defensive mechanics. Invuln, stunbreaker, protection, Vamp rune (sucks against condis, yet is one of the most used runes – guess why), etc …
The food is used mostly in zerg fights to make soft cc less annoying. Dmg condis were never a threat in zerg fights and in roaming/smallscale it isn’t as common.

Shala.8352:

And wich skills/trait you change to “manage yourself” against a heavy burst team? Dont you just switch amulet from berserker to marauder or soldier if you see 2 shatter/dps mesmers? Are you even totaly change your build like you are doing against condi groups?
You know what is the main used food in wvw? the -40% condition duration… guess why

I change my build every match up unless its basically mirror of the previous tho. Its called adapting. Why would anyone run the same thing over and over again unless they were matched up against the same thing over and over again. But since you asked for specifics:

In relation to the comment about wvw, most of this topic is about pvp but I will davel. The problem with conditions in wvw in application is a organized group can apply more conditions that possible to cleanse and stack up fast just from auto attacks let alone skills. A lot of the issue just stems from having more people. Which makes the application inherently unavoidable and un-cleanse-able due the sheer number of players with conditions outgoing. PvP does not have this problem because of the balanced numbers, the lack of condition food, lack of certain runes, and lack of certain armor sets.

Eval.2371:

In relation to the comment about wvw, most of this topic is about pvp but I will davel. The problem with conditions in wvw in application is a organized group can apply more conditions that possible to cleanse and stack up fast just from auto attacks let alone skills. A lot of the issue just stems from having more people. Which makes the application inherently unavoidable and un-cleanse-able due the sheer number of players with conditions outgoing. PvP does not have this problem because of the balanced numbers, the lack of condition food, certain runes, and lack of certain armor sets.

ROAMING is invested with Condi PU mesmers. Because it quite literally facerolls most other builds at this point. The exception is an extremely well played DD ele.
There is no balance in zerging, so it literally shouldn’t be discussed as its impossible to keep conditions on your enemy with so many possible RANDOM cleanses.

GrandHaven.1052:

Eval.2371:

In relation to the comment about wvw, most of this topic is about pvp but I will davel. The problem with conditions in wvw in application is a organized group can apply more conditions that possible to cleanse and stack up fast just from auto attacks let alone skills. A lot of the issue just stems from having more people. Which makes the application inherently unavoidable and un-cleanse-able due the sheer number of players with conditions outgoing. PvP does not have this problem because of the balanced numbers, the lack of condition food, certain runes, and lack of certain armor sets.

ROAMING is invested with Condi PU mesmers. Because it quite literally facerolls most other builds at this point. The exception is an extremely well played DD ele.
There is no balance in zerging, so it literally shouldn’t be discussed as its impossible to keep conditions on your enemy with so many possible RANDOM cleanses.

Yes and roaming condi mesmer relies on dire gear, condi duration food, perplexity runes. All of which are outside of the current pvp system. Condition mesmer’s confusion, torment, bleeding, and burning stacks can just as easily be cleansed and dodged just like in pvp. Condition mesmer is easily ignore able in wvw, you just run away. They cannot keep up to the majority of classes and if they do they blow all their reset potential.

Edit wording.

Eval.2371:

Yes and roaming condi mesmer relies on dire gear, condi duration food, perplexity runes. All of which are outside of the current pvp system. Aside from that particular build, condi mesmer is just as susceptible to being cleansed and dodged just like in pvp.

Its like we are not even playing the same kitten game!

One of 2 things is wrong wiht this, or both more likely.
1. You do not know what the word rely means.
2. You underestimate the condi spamming nature of condi mesmer. Some classes(hell most without gimping their own builds to hell) CAN not cleanse enough and as consistently as the conditions are being applied.

GrandHaven.1052:

Eval.2371:

Yes and roaming condi mesmer relies on dire gear, condi duration food, perplexity runes. All of which are outside of the current pvp system. Aside from that particular build, condi mesmer is just as susceptible to being cleansed and dodged just like in pvp.

Its like we are not even playing the same kitten game!

One of 2 things is wrong wiht this, or both more likely.
1. You do not know what the word rely means.
2. You underestimate the condi spamming nature of condi mesmer. Some classes(hell most without gimping their own builds to hell) CAN not cleanse enough and as consistently as the conditions are being applied.

1. Your right poor choice of a words. Let me rephrase that: condition mesmer’s confusion, torment, bleeding, and burning stacks can just as easily be cleansed and dodged just like in pvp. I will agree with you that mesmer condi output is more consistently than other classes.

2. Gimping your build is walking into a fight without the tools to deal with your opponent. Not taking cleanses for a fight is one of them.

Your right it does sound like were playing two completely different games. I think that speaks volumes considering the majority of your complaints are that there is nothing that can be done in x situation yet plenty of people offer you advice on how to adjust or what to do in those situations. Then you move onto another point completely disregarding the previous points and not applying them to other situations. Sooner or later your going to realize its no ones fault but your own that you cannot deal with another’s build until anet adjusts them if they feel it is unbalanced.

This topic has become off topic I am done here.

no for real the main problem of cleanser skills, is that you cant chose wich condi you want to cleanse. Also to be a decent cleanse skill, it has to be on demand, else is not a counter, cuz is too much based on luck or situational.
Like cleansing ire and brawler recovery, are all bad cleanse mechanics. Mesmer mantra of resolve is instead a decent cleanse skill.
Even generosity sigil. yea i’m happy to proc it to transfer you my 2s bleed… so i have to wait other 10 sec to proc it again. Also need to hit to counter is so sad, promote the annoying kiting typical of condi players.

All around condi is too much luck based and less skill favored.
I mark again that condition that deal damage should not be removable and scale down based on the enemy armor. Only condi cleansable: cripple, immobilize, weakness, blind….
Best balance, and forcing condi players to sacrifice their tanky armor if they truly want to do damage with condition. So they will be at the same level of burst dps class.

Lol @ the people who are trying actively to convince everyone that it’s “skill-less” to play condi builds. The fact of the matter it’s easier to kill you scrubby power builds because you’re not used to having to care about condi damage. Condi builds LITERALLY have the same kitten weakness as power builds to conditions if they don’t slot skills for it… Guess what? I played condi and I very very rarely die to conditions. It is a L2B (learn to build) issue. Accommodate for the builds you see. Stop crying because zerker isn’t the only way to kill someone now.

T raw.4658:

No condi players generally aren’t able to perform nearly as well with power builds.

My main is necro, power necro but I also play cele signet and multiclass power and condi builds.

In my tier, I was way more effective playing the dps medi guard than I do with the burn guard. Some folks here defend burn guards and burning in general because they play it. Good for them. I defend it because it is generally easy to counter and they add a new damage source to the game. I think pvp is more challenging that way and I’d hate to see it get nerfed.

so wait… let me get this straight. the condi engi who can beat the burn guard is a scrub, but the [insert class here] who can’t beat either of them is good?

is this really the logic the ‘nerf burning plz I die everytime’ movement is using now?

Just going to throw this out there, power damage gets flat out reduced by protection, weakness and armor. You can stat build to basically resist all power builds. Condition damage builds are countered by cleanse and resistance(Don’t mention resistance because only warriors who pop sig get this and mesmers with TE and glamors too.) and specific skills like Berserker Stance and DS. Vitality isn’t a condi counter only to Condi builds either since Direct damage also affects this too. It also goes to saying condition damage also utilizes 5 damaging sources that makes it harder for smaller cleanses to remove relieve damage pressure, and makes it even harder when there are other impairment conditions. Sometimes your condition removal won’t clear that 6 to 11 stacks of bleed you have ticking away at you meaning you’ll have to use a bigger clear.

Spvp wise conditions aren’t taken because it’s a game mode about capping nodes and gaining points for the team. There will also be the variable of team AOE condi removal. Conditions also take time to do their damage when you need to kick the guy off the point Asap. The other thing that condi builds are pretty decent at are bunker breaking. Some of the cheesey condi builds like PU mesmers that don’t see play in spvp is because of stealth affecting capping. Can’t hold a point nor contest, nor are you doing group fights a favor.

WvW – Dire, Perplexity, and 40% food exists.

Even before the big (so called) balance changes, pugging against a condi team is very difficult, and from matches I’ve played would tend to win mid, and the match. After the balance changes I found this to be even more true. Being able to plaster a point with huge lingering aoe condition fields definitely gives an advantage to that team. There is just no way you can cleanse multiple conditions that are constantly being reapplied. So you have to fight off point or try and tag their home point.

This thread killed Krillin

Vague Memory.2817:

Even before the big (so called) balance changes, pugging against a condi team is very difficult, and from matches I’ve played would tend to win mid, and the match. After the balance changes I found this to be even more true. Being able to plaster a point with huge lingering aoe condition fields definitely gives an advantage to that team. There is just no way you can cleanse multiple conditions that are constantly being reapplied. So you have to fight off point or try and tag their home point.

If they’re plastering the point with AoE condition fields, go cap the other two points. There are only two of those fields with any strong uptime (Combustive Shot and Corrosive Poison Cloud) and only one of those is any good. So if you can’t avoid the pulsing condis, it’s because the majority of their team is sitting on that one point. So go cap the other two.

Bumy.8057:

Embolism.8106:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

no wonder these players think condi is OP. they aren’t smart enough to think of blocking or evading the attacks that apply the condis

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Ether Bolt: 2s Torment (it tickles). Ether Blast: 3s Torment (stop that!). Ether Clone: nothing.

Winds of Chaos: 33% chance 7s Bleed (yawn). 33% chance 1s Burning (wow so OP). 33% 5s Vulnerability (I am undone!).
.

Wow! Great response! You really proved your point by saying things like ’ it tickles ’, ’ yawn ’ and ’stop that! ’. Just another delusional nutjob trying to justify his abuse of over the top condition damage scaling.

Okay. Then please state for the record that you believe 2/3s Torment and 66% chance to apply 7s Bleeding or 1s Burning is OP and is what condition builds use to kill you after you mitigate their burst.