Guild Wars 2

Condi was supposed to be attrition based long term damage. Nowadays somebody at anet keeps trying to push for conditions to also be viable at burst damage, but doesn’t realize that cleanses are useless against a bunch of 1-2 second burns.

Why should you get to burst people by only investing in one stat, condidamage, when power burst builds have to invest in 3 stats?

Is it even questionable why condibuilds have been so broken since forever when there is such an obvious, objective, statistical imbalance here?

In the old days, conditions stacked in duration and took ages for condi damages to finalize. A 10s+ condi would get cleansed in 5s. The game is evolving in more ways than one so I don’t mind the new condi burst meta Anet brought in to make conditions a threat again.

Only thing I can agree is how easy it is for a War, Mesmer, and Necro comp to stack condi after a full cleanse. I ran a shout cleanse guard prepatch vs these comps and condition bursts were still insane. Granted Necros were stacked in that game so they had higher team dmges.

As far as whether condi is easier played than power builds? Only if you’re a perma stealthed class who just needs to face roll the keyboard to win. Otherwise, they’re skillfloor is very similar to other power builds in the game.

Condi as attrition doesn’t work with how many condi removals there are, either… The whole removal/condition system could use a large update, but it isn’t likely to happen. Until then, condi burst is the only way to even do conditions.

I completely agree with you about your post. However, I don’t think everyone else understands the point your trying to make. All anet has to do is take the burst condi skills and reduce the number of stacks a bit and increase the duration (maybe not for all classes since burn guard is fine as it only has few condis). For example Soul Spiral (Reaper shroud skill #4), instead of 12 stacks of poison for 4s, make it 4-8 stacks for 8-12 secs. Still high damage just over time so the dps is lower than that of a power build. If your going to argue that condi and power should have the same dps (in pvp at least), then go look up what the design direction behind the two damage types are, which the original maker of this post explains it really well.

Dr Patrik.3642:

I completely agree with you about your post. However, I don’t think everyone else understands the point your trying to make. All anet has to do is take the burst condi skills and reduce the number of stacks a bit and increase the duration (maybe not for all classes since burn guard is fine as it only has few condis). For example Soul Spiral (Reaper shroud skill #4), instead of 12 stacks of poison for 4s, make it 4-8 stacks for 8-12 secs. Still high damage just over time so the dps is lower than that of a power build. If your going to argue that condi and power should have the same dps (in pvp at least), then go look up what the design direction behind the two damage types are, which the original maker of this post explains it really well.

The problem is that if this was true blood is power would be one of the most OP skills but it isn’t.The reason is because a longer duration means that more of the damage is cleansed. At some point duration simply doesn’t matter.

No more two AOE condi cleanse meta build to get for your team fight.

dd ele + dd ele was the stronger one.

dd ele + b. guard
dd ele + shoutbow war
b.guard + shoutbow war

And so on.

Since everybody and there mother did so much QQ about bunker since HoT (where the problem was not bunker support, but much more how REVENANT got bunker with berzerker/viper amulet and durability runes).

The 2 AOE condi cleanses support was holding all those condi build away. So much, we were able to say playing condis is Cheeze because it don’t work versus premade. Now cheeze work versus premade. So, let’s all Cheeze, it’s our new META since season 2.

Now i enjoy playing the condition build to burst with all the others. Let’s do a race, the first to condi burst, wins!

If you idealized the damage no blocks no invouln no condition clear no resistence no protection etc then condition damage is naturally superior to power. Look at the weapon skill too tips and you will see the power damage often ranges from 250-2k while condition damage can be well over 2-6k on multiple skills after the duration is completed. If condition damage and power damage were relatively even in damage, conditions wouldn’t seem so broken. Yes they are a duration but one also has to remember many conditions also slow skills and prevent healing.

I have long stated condition damage needs a tone down. With one example Burn guardian was strong with 1k burns before they stacked so why let burning stack to 10 so they can deal 6k per tick? This is toxic to gameplay even if it can be removed.

Tim.6450:

Dr Patrik.3642:

I completely agree with you about your post. However, I don’t think everyone else understands the point your trying to make. All anet has to do is take the burst condi skills and reduce the number of stacks a bit and increase the duration (maybe not for all classes since burn guard is fine as it only has few condis). For example Soul Spiral (Reaper shroud skill #4), instead of 12 stacks of poison for 4s, make it 4-8 stacks for 8-12 secs. Still high damage just over time so the dps is lower than that of a power build. If your going to argue that condi and power should have the same dps (in pvp at least), then go look up what the design direction behind the two damage types are, which the original maker of this post explains it really well.

The problem is that if this was true blood is power would be one of the most OP skills but it isn’t.The reason is because a longer duration means that more of the damage is cleansed. At some point duration simply doesn’t matter.

Condi duration isn’t useless. If it was then amulets with expertise wouldn’t be on metabattle for top builds. Also, just as condi builds have to play around condi clear and resistance, power builds have to play around blocks (which condis go through), evades (which condis go through), heals (since most power builds don’t have poison like condi builds do), and counter pressure (since they cant stack toughness and vitality like condi builds can). Finally, if to many condis are being cleansed for condi duration to be effective then just remove/increase cd for some condi cleanses across the board.

power builds have to play around blocks (which condis go through)

no they dont unless unblockable but power has unblockable attacks too.

evades (which condis go through)

no they dont.

heals (since most power builds don’t have poison like condi builds do)

Untrue and irrelevant, condi builds have to play around heals.

and counter pressure (since they cant stack toughness and vitality like condi builds can)

condition amulets only come with 1 defensive stat bar sage which had vit and healing. The only amulet that has toughness and vit is paladins.

Sounds like you enjoy condition builds. But they do need to be toned down. Take a poll and most players would suggest a slight shave to condition damage.

Zelulose.8695:

Sounds like you enjoy condition builds. But they do need to be toned down. Take a poll and most players would suggest a slight shave to condition damage.

The notion that condi players dont have to care about attacks being blocked or that condis go through block is untrue. Unless the attack is unblockable you can block any hit that would have applied a condition to you since almost all condition attacks use a physical hit to apply it. The same with evades. saying it goes through the two of them is wrong. You have already had the damage dealt to you…why should it suddently stop because a block skill or evade has been used AFTER the damage has been applied. Would be like asking to be hit for 2k but since you blocked 1s after you have 1.5k hp returned to you.

Everyone has to play around heals and its available to anyone via a sigil and only some condi builds can regularly apply it enough for it to become a proper hindrance to healing output.

The thing about amulets was a fact. There is no way to take toughness and vit because such an amulet doesnt exist for condi builds since it was removed.

BTW I only play power builds. I have never said condi builds dont need to be toned down its just some people use bad arguments.

Condition needs to go back to be condition over time. Shave the stack add duration reballance condition removal across classes around that. Unblock able attacks need to be toned down as well. Unblock able damage is one thing but unblockable interrupts need to be removed. Long duration blocks need to be toned down. Base healing needs to be toned down across the board, physical spike needs a tone down burst builds need increased CDs. There are a lot of things that need to be toned to bring it to a healthy place.

Sigmoid.7082:

Zelulose.8695:

Sounds like you enjoy condition builds. But they do need to be toned down. Take a poll and most players would suggest a slight shave to condition damage.

The notion that condi players dont have to care about attacks being blocked or that condis go through block is untrue. Unless the attack is unblockable you can block any hit that would have applied a condition to you since almost all condition attacks use a physical hit to apply it. The same with evades. saying it goes through the two of them is wrong. You have already had the damage dealt to you…why should it suddently stop because a block skill or evade has been used AFTER the damage has been applied. Would be like asking to be hit for 2k but since you blocked 1s after you have 1.5k hp returned to you.

Everyone has to play around heals and its available to anyone via a sigil and only some condi builds can regularly apply it enough for it to become a proper hindrance to healing output.

The thing about amulets was a fact. There is no way to take toughness and vit because such an amulet doesnt exist for condi builds since it was removed.

BTW I only play power builds. I have never said condi builds dont need to be toned down its just some people use bad arguments.

Ah I see. How very unbiased of you carry on because I do prefer intelligent arguments. It is very true that condition damage and power damage have many variables making it hard to compare the two. That is why it is best to check out what is most effective build-wise in pvp. Is it condition based builds or power based builds? Or a little bit of both? From what I have seen Conditions are strong on all the profession but truth be told, I feel power Revenant stand above all the condition builds entirely. Yet it is hard to deny that condition builds are extremely effective if not the most effective on all the other classes right now.

But you do bring up some interesting points to consider. Condition damage is in a strange place right now

First, I’m not talking about skills that apply condis going through blocks (however, looks at necro staff), I mean that a condi build can land one skill and watch as it does 10k damage over 3 secs (Im looking at you warrior mace burst) and unless they have a clear, AND THE CLEAR ACTUALLY CLEARS THE RIGHT CONDI AND NOT SOMETHING LIKE 1 VULN, that person is eating that 10k damage. Also, you can’t compare a 2k power skill to a 10k condi skill. The closest thing to compare condi to that is power is unrelenting assault, which guess what, can be blocked mid way through. I would, however, like to amend my statement about amulets, I should have said toughness OR vitality. What I was getting at is that a condi build can take a 3 stat amulet and therefor more of vitality or toughness than a power build which is almost forced to take a 4 stat amulet.

Also, you can’t compare a 2k power skill to a 10k condi skill

The 2k is used was purely arbitrary.

I mean that a condi build can land one skill and watch as it does 10k damage over 3 secs (Im looking at you warrior mace burst)

That is an exaggerated number. The skill itself only does 4 stacks of bleed and 4 stacks of confusion, even at 2k+ condi damage you will only be taking just over 1k damage a second from the skill alone. What makes the mace so annoying is because of the order conditions are removed in. If you dont know conditions are removed last in first out. They are also applied in the order that they read down a skill, traits included, then sigils after that. This means that for the meta build which takes frailty and torment sigil you need to remove 3 conditions before you get to the confusion and bleed UNLESS more conditions are applied that move those two up the list. If they swap to bow to and proc geomancy+doom you will remove the bleeds sooner rather than later since they are now second.

The closest thing to compare condi to that is power is unrelenting assault, which guess what, can be blocked mid way through.

Again this is a bad example and you are ignoring the fact that you can prevent damage at the point of application. The skill itself attacks X times. A better comparison to this skill in particular would be flurry for warrior, sword burst. It attacks 8 times each applying bleed but you can prevent more bleeds being applied have way through by blocking the rest of the attack.

If conditions in general are neutered then I’d like to see suitable amulets with stats that allow for sustain while dealing damage over a longer time period (ie mercenary).

If I’m playing Viper then hell yes I want condi burst because I don’t have the stats to survive while dealing damage over a longer time.

Right now Players can sustain plenty with a mard amulet no joke. Mesmers can survive fine with any amulet. They could remove all the amulets and on base stats mesmer would be the strongest. Amulets actually hurt mesmer power or condition because other classes need them and mesmer doesn’t.

Another post of players angry why a condi build can kill them"fast"?
Is from the old burn guardian that everyone ask for a nerf to something that don’t need any.

1) There’s so much things that counter the condition damage, so much traits, skills, runes, sigils, combo, boons, that is easier counter a condition burst than a direct burst. There’s entire builds that focus on clean conditions and frequently in a good premade there’s 2 builds that can use AoE condi clean skills, making a condi burst barely impossible, or anyway weak. Or just put on Resistance and a lot of boons and look to all that conditions and laugh, expecially if the enemy don’t corrupt your resistance or don’t do it fast enough why you have a lot fo boons.

2) Condi builds need more or less the same ability to be played than any other DPS builds, expecially why frequently condi builds to be proficient have lesser survavibility than any viable DPS builds (unless for the mesmer, that still have a lot of defensive skills). A condi user have to HIT you to inflict conditions, then if you block/dodge/blind/immune, he’s unable to inflict that amount of damage. Is like use a condi bomb Combo that inflict 8k in 6 seconds or a Meditrapper that with 3 skills inflict 10k in 3 seconds (example: Procession of Fate trap, Gs5, Gs2; With more chance to combo with other traps and skills).
About a generai DPS, during a entire match Condi and Direct are similar, but direct damage is still the faster to take you down.

3) Condition is not even more a attrition damage. ANet chose to increase the condition damage to make it Viable and they made a really good work to make more builds diversity in this last year than in the 3 before it.
When condition was a pure attrition damage, making it barely noticeable or strong but never enough to make a build on it, you was unable to see anyone play a condition build. The reason is simple: Why play a bould that need a lot of practice to inflict damage but still inflict half the damage of all the other direct damage builds?
Now the condition damage is a real damage and can kill you, but if you look at the builds, not all them work on pure condition damage. They mix it with direct damage, like for the reaper, to inflict a high dps.
Now there’s players that can finally play conditions and not be blamed to do that. Condition damage is high but also highly countered by a large amount of things (runes, sigils, traits, skills, also a Boon that make you ignore all the conditions on you, a really Op thing).
If you look on the 8 top builds, 3 are direct damage dps, 3 are condition damage dps and 2 are bunkers. Do you want more balance than this?

4) That point is only why i really hate when someone take the burnguardian as a condi strong example of how that is “OP”. Back in time, there was a insane number of posts of players that ask for a nerf why burn inflicted to then up to 90-100k of damage, killing them. in truth, that show how condition is Weak. If a condition need to inflict you 90k of damage to kill you, plus all the direct damage, is why the enemy needed to kill you 3-4 times. Actually is more or less the same thing.
Do you want to know if condition damage is OP? Theres’ a simple way to see that: when you die in a match, look at the damage you recived by the different conditions and don’t look at the direct damage. If they are 2-3 times more than your life, then the enemy needed to kill you 2-3 times before been able to do that.
If you die by a direct damage, frequently the total damage recived is lesser than 2 times your LF, frequently lesser than 1,5 if you’re dead quickly.
That why a condition need a large amount of time to kill you, while a direct damage need lesser time. A reaper kill you in 20-30 seconds, a thief that see you at 50% hp can kill you in 3-4 seconds.

Summed:
-You have more ways to protect yourself from Conditions than from Direct damage.
-Condi builds need the same skilled play as any direct damage build, with more or less the same result in dps during the match but with lesser chances to burstkill than a direct damage class (also why a direct damage class can use more offensive amulets and at the same time more defensive utility skills and traits, if you’ve a good builds)
-Who want to play a builds that don’t inflict damage? Do you really want to play conditions if you’re unable to kill someone with it? Make the conditions a real damage and no more an attrition damage made possible a large amount of builds and build diversity.
-If you’re bursted down with a focus look more to the direct damage than to the condition one. If you’ve been bursted by a condibomb, you’re in a bad team or your build is really bad.
-If you die against a condition build, don’t blame the game why conditions have to be weak, blame yourself why you was unable to kill your enemy (may the reason be why he had a build that counter yours, may be why he was more skilled than you or more things). Condi and Direct are both identified as Damage. The only difference now is the way to counter them.

Saiyan.1704:

In the old days, conditions stacked in duration and took ages for condi damages to finalize. A 10s+ condi would get cleansed in 5s. The game is evolving in more ways than one so I don’t mind the new condi burst meta Anet brought in to make conditions a threat again.

Only thing I can agree is how easy it is for a War, Mesmer, and Necro comp to stack condi after a full cleanse. I ran a shout cleanse guard prepatch vs these comps and condition bursts were still insane. Granted Necros were stacked in that game so they had higher team dmges.

As far as whether condi is easier played than power builds? Only if you’re a perma stealthed class who just needs to face roll the keyboard to win. Otherwise, they’re skillfloor is very similar to other power builds in the game.

This is a pretty accurate assessment. Condi-bursts should be a thing, it’s already difficult enough for condi builds to get kills against those with powerful cleanses. However, certain builds have too much condi-burst and reapplication, namely the ones Saiyan mentioned.

Arcaedus.7290:

Saiyan.1704:

In the old days, conditions stacked in duration and took ages for condi damages to finalize. A 10s+ condi would get cleansed in 5s. The game is evolving in more ways than one so I don’t mind the new condi burst meta Anet brought in to make conditions a threat again.

Only thing I can agree is how easy it is for a War, Mesmer, and Necro comp to stack condi after a full cleanse. I ran a shout cleanse guard prepatch vs these comps and condition bursts were still insane. Granted Necros were stacked in that game so they had higher team dmges.

As far as whether condi is easier played than power builds? Only if you’re a perma stealthed class who just needs to face roll the keyboard to win. Otherwise, they’re skillfloor is very similar to other power builds in the game.

This is a pretty accurate assessment. Condi-bursts should be a thing, it’s already difficult enough for condi builds to get kills against those with powerful cleanses. However, certain builds have too much condi-burst and reapplication, namely the ones Saiyan mentioned.

Yes the ridiculous amount of cleansing needs to go.

I’ve said this before, but I think that the super high damage conditions should be reallocated to precision based damage. This means that attrition builds can still work with just condition damage, but the burstier conditions all require a solid crit chance to work as well as they currently do.

You guy’s are heartless,

Would you really steal a one legged man’s crutch?

Nerfing conditions would amount to the same thing.

we can’t practice the law of Darwinism in these part’s ya hear
(the player base is low enough)

conditions are balanced and skillful end of discussion.

I would say condition nerfs should wait until warrior, engineer, mesmer, revenant, and ranger get their sustain nerfs. as all have to much sustain some in elite specs others in core. Once this is fixed then nerf condition damage or buff it accordingly.