Guild Wars 2

Anyone else kinda get this feeling? I was messing around on my necro earlier and so often I’d just bomb someone and even if they escaped or killed me (I’m terrible necro btw lol I dunno what I’m doing and just mash no muscle memory lol) I would drop them with the duration alone.

Someone I was practicing with said “How am I supposed to cleanse all this at the rate you apply it? And how is my heal supposed to have any effect if it’s ticking for like 5 min” Clearly he was exaggerating the last part, and it didn’t help my poison was nerfing his heal (unless that’s still bugged?). But his point kinda stands… Most condi clense or mitigation are one hit wonders that get you out of jail once unless your a engie or a warrior, and I find the “avoid it” to be rather invalid due to there being not much of a wind up or cast time for these things and anything AoE is usually overwhelming on a small capture point. (actually off topic but why is burst so much easier to avoid than condi? is this intentional?)

I had no real way to answer his question and the prospect puzzles me to… Do you guys think duration stacking is a bit extreme?

I mean you can take both damage and duration and still be super survival, true if you eat burst while just standing there you’ll die but unless you play like a total idiot (like I was doing when I died lol) I can see how any decent player who’s had at least 5 days with the class would just laugh at any real attempts other than getting 2v1ed.

I myself on glass burst builds find myself avoiding conflict with them unless I know I had some kind of advantage, be it an invis gank or I know they used their c/ds and I could exploit that ect ect.

But maybe it’s the way they stack? Should bleeds really last more than 5 seconds without a significant wind up like churning earth? Or Perhaps it’s more of a problem
with duration stacking conditions? You can throw down an instant 10 second (base) stack, Why? shouldn’t that 10 seconds be built up to? If not what’s the point of stacking, doesn’t that make it a bit mindless?

Anyways I know condi’s are in a semi OP spot right and a super controversial topic riddled with flame and angst from the baby QQers and the super defensive zealots being all like “Arturo alduin! KEEP ME OP!” (poking fun at both sides in jest)

But what are your opinions on this matter? Please try to be constructive.

I actually already talked about this in the past. It’s insane how strong condition duration is. If my math is right then 50% extra condition duration equals +500 condition damage. That’s rougly 14 stacks of might constantly.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Conditions/first#post2877612

but tbh I don’t see any change soon, it’s been like this for months now and it seems they can’t figure out what’s really beyond broken and what’s not.

Bsgapollo.5364:

I actually already talked about this in the past. It’s insane how strong condition duration is. If my math is right then 50% extra condition duration equals +500 condition damage. That’s rougly 14 stacks of might constantly.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Conditions/first#post2877612

but tbh I don’t see any change soon, it’s been like this for months now and it seems they can’t figure out what’s really beyond broken and what’s not.

Wouldn’t that mean that 10 stat points is roughly equal to 1% extra duration, i.e. exactly the ratio that traitlines give?

yeah condis are stupid as hell right now… you can stack too many in a small time space and they last a long time if not cleansed… The only classes that can even cleanse them fast enough are the ones who use condis… i dont even…

honestly thinking about just maining my engi or necro and sheling my other classes.

Peow peow.2189:

honestly thinking about just maining my engi or necro and sheling my other classes.

You should.

So many hotjoin heroes coming to the forums complaining about whatever they aren’t playing being OP. It’s the same with every game but that doesn’t make the behaviour any less ridiculous.

Try every class. Try as many builds as possible. It helps you gain a realistic perspective.

Direct damage classes crit for 2K+ dmg, and a bleed with ~1kdmg in total is OP?

this 50% = 500 condition damage makes no sense. 50% duration means 50% more damage u deal with your condition. With 3k condition damage, 50% will result in more than 1,5k bonus condition damage, that sounds great, right? But do the math with precision and crit-dmg and you will see compareable numbers.

They did try to nerf durations but I’m not sure how that worked out or was that not part of the last balance patch?

a t s e.9614:

Yes condi is OP , if something crits for 2k you must have a zerker amulet , unless you’re a warr with UF trait .

You forgot the misinformation, that condition builds only need one stat to increase their damage, which is wrong, they need 3. The only difference is, that they get condi duration out of runes and traits, and it is no armor stat, which maybe should be changed. But their damage needs time to effect the target, so they need to survive longer than burst builds .

a t s e.9614:

While condi stills gets the defensive stats.

Because their damage need time to build up. A crit is a crit, a bleed needs a few seconds to deal his damage, so some defense is needed, isnt it?

a t s e.9614:

And they can’t be dodged or anything , you either eat them or cleanse .

wrong, conditions are applied by skills, (except dhuumfire and other traits), everything that negates the damage of that skill, blocks the condition apllied, easy isnt it? And they can be removed. even dodging works.

a t s e.9614:

Conditions should be a secondary source of dmg instead of primery .

nope, this would make the whole combat booring. The team which arrives first at the capturepoints with their bunkers will win.

a t s e.9614:

You realise that a clsss like thief simply has no chance against necros or engis and condi warrs. Eles can’t do anything aswell.

L2P, they can remove conditions, dodge, stun and deal damage. Everything that is needed to kill people. Maybe your build isnt good against condition builds, maybe you should change it?

a t s e.9614:

The game was more balanced back then , when people were either full glass cannon or full bunker .

what changed since release, they included torment, added dhuumfire and recused quickness. And some number changes here and there. Plus they included condition removes and imunities. Yes it was more balanced….. The only point nobody played condition builds earlier, was that direct damage was better because of quickness. Then everybody played bunker builds and conditions started to shine and now everybody cries.

more absurd is why i can be chilled when have burning on me?^^

It’s amazing how some people still try to defend condition damage builds…

whyme.3281:

Direct damage classes crit for 2K+ dmg, and a bleed with ~1kdmg in total is OP?

this 50% = 500 condition damage makes no sense. 50% duration means 50% more damage u deal with your condition. With 3k condition damage, 50% will result in more than 1,5k bonus condition damage, that sounds great, right? But do the math with precision and crit-dmg and you will see compareable numbers.

Although it is true that condition duration works based on how much condition damage you have, you can’t really compare how much condition duration you would need for achieving a certain amount of condition damage. In other words yes I was some what wrong on that fact. However, my calculation was probably based around 800 condition damage ( can’t really remember since it was so long ago when I did the math ) It’s the avarage number people get in spvp without having any sort of might stacks.

And like you said crit dmg works exactly the same probably, if I were to have 1k power and 50% crit dmg it would result in 1.5k power. However unlike conditions, power actually has several counters.

1. Our damage doesn’t keep damaging an opponent while dodge rolling
2. Protection
3. Weakness, glancing blows
4. And I would even say retaliation, the amount an elementalist spams his skills compared to a necro is a lot more.

You could counter the fact that conditions don’t have a lot of burst compared to power classes, and need these kind of advantages, that would be wrong. Yesterday I got 1 shot by a spirit ranger that the ranger actually laughed how fast I died. The same goes for necro’s, with a decent fear chain they can almost 1 shot everyone as well.

And not to mention they only need 2 specific stats in order to be effective, they can build defensively while power classes have to go full glass cannon in order to keep up with their damage.

Other then cleansing your conditions there is very little counter play to it.

Bsgapollo.5364:

1. Our damage doesn’t keep damaging an opponent while dodge rolling

Actually, dodging works the same for conditions and direct damage. If you dodge the skill, it doesn’t damage you. If you don’t dodge the skill, it damages you, even if you dodge later after the skill hit you.

Take this a little biased as an engineer but necro conditions in certain cases are far longer than mine and in other cases mine are longer.

Shrapnel nades=16s bleeds
Shrapnel trait16s blled
Burns= incindiary powder 4s
Burn bomb 2s per tick
Poison nades= up to50s

Engi pistol =2s

Necro
Necros autoattack =6s bleed /poison
Fear-1-2s
Burn 2s

Necro signet of spite……no comment.
Blood is power…no comment
Condi xfers…. no comment….
Takein mind both use +50 condi duration

Lol , I need to learn to dodge condis ? Nice joke . Most of them are autoatacks and just a braindead spam. I’m sorry but condi builds require no skill whatsoever. Try to play glass cannon and tell me how pro you are

Bsgapollo.5364:

Other then cleansing your conditions there is very little counter play to it.

A few of us have already suggested that Regen and Weakness should affect condi damage more effectively but I have heard very little as to why that may not work very well.

Bsgapollo.5364:

And like you said crit dmg works exactly the same probably, if I were to have 1k power and 50% crit dmg it would result in 1.5k power. However unlike conditions, power actually has several counters.

1. Our damage doesn’t keep damaging an opponent while dodge rolling
2. Protection
3. Weakness, glancing blows
4. And I would even say retaliation, the amount an elementalist spams his skills compared to a necro is a lot more.

1. Your damage was dealt x sec. before the dodge in a single hit. The condition damage you receive was applied before the dodge. A dodge will block one attack and therefore new conditions. So it doesn’t make any difference here. Same thing for blocking, blinds and most invulnerability.
2. and 3. I wouldn’t mind, if weakness (25%) or a glancing blow (50%) would reduce the condition duration. But this should not apply to protection, too, because there are also all that cleansing around, that reduces your damage as well.
4. wouldn’t say so, that depends more on the weapon being used.
5. you forgot the armor, but therefor direct damage is much higher vs. glass cannons.

Bsgapollo.5364:

You could counter the fact that conditions don’t have a lot of burst compared to power classes, and need these kind of advantages, that would be wrong. Yesterday I got 1 shot by a spirit ranger that the ranger actually laughed how fast I died.

I think spirit ranger is broken right now and I would ignore that. Why?
Because the Ranger can get full tank and only has to max his condition damage. The pet is not effected by that. They deal the same damage as usual (crits >3k) + the conditions. So you get both high condition and direct damage, while just focusing on your survivability. Sun spirit is Op as well, 70% chance to burn some one on hit, not even a crit, for every one around is at least 50% to much.

Bsgapollo.5364:

The same goes for necro’s, with a decent fear chain they can almost 1 shot everyone as well.

For me oneshot means using one skill. The necro uses 3 skills (Staff #4, DS #4 and Wall) for such a chain. Additionally he could corrupt boons, … During that he also hits you several times. If any other build is able to hit you that often, you will probably die as well.
The fear alone will hit you for 3*2,5s*700dmg=~5250damage then there will be burning from dhuumfire for 3*700damage=2100 damage.

Bsgapollo.5364:

And not to mention they only need 2 specific stats in order to be effective, they can build defensively while power classes have to go full glass cannon in order to keep up with their damage.

Power builds can deal more damage then Condition builds, but not against tanks. That is where condition builds shine, because they ignore enemies armor. That is probably also the point, why power builds kinda suck right now, because there are a lot of bunker builds around.

And conditions need more than 2 stats. Most builds need a decent ammount of crit chance (i.e. for dhuumfire) to deal extra damage. The defense is also needed, because unlike direct damage builds, the conditions need time to kill. I think >90% of the current condition builds would swap their armor, if there would be a equivalent to zerker gear (Condi damage, duration, precision). But there is no such set. Right now we need to use those defenseiv stats, because we are forced to it.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Other then cleansing your conditions there is very little counter play to it.

Ever tried blocks , invulnerability (not endure pain), blinds or dodge against a condition build?

a t s e.9614:

Lol , I need to learn to dodge condis ? Nice joke . Most of them are autoatacks and just a braindead spam. I’m sorry but condi builds require no skill whatsoever. Try to play glass cannon and tell me how pro you are

Then dont dodge and die. But stop telling people, that conditions cant be dodged, blocked, blinded etc.

Btw, noone said, dodge every autoattack, dodge the strong skills, you dont dodge warriors autoattacks, you dodge 100blades or the hammer stun. Maybe some skills need some better animations, but that doesnt mean, conditions are op

You’re right I forgot toughness as well, thanks for that
And for crit traits to proc like dhuumfire and incendiary powder you don’t need more then 20% crit chance, it will still proc often enough.
and blocks are very limited on every class, almost useless since it can go away with a simple auto attack, invul recentely got nerfed more by making it a non capture contribution so very little people still run it, they usually have long cooldowns and that still doesn’t ignore the fact I’m still taking damage while being invulnerable. Sounds absurd in my ears, “taking damage while being invulnerable”

@whyme , I like how you ignored the part where I said condi builds can bunker while dealing massive dmg . Isint that OP? Bunker+dmg while if you try to bunker with a glass cannon build you will get facerolled.

Maybe I’m wrong who knows ? Can you post a thief bunker vid who can tank 2 people while landing 2k crits?

is the duration of condis to hight?? i dont think so , ofc on necro signet of spite need some reduction , if condis are to strong?? No , the problem is that every calss have acces to condis even if its not condi but dps build , bruning is everywhere.

From necro point of view , yes necro condi spam atm is to much , thats why every month we are gettion some small nerfs , we already got weeknes duration nerf , less bleed , fear dmg reduced , burning duration reduced and upcoming patch will reduce the amount of condis too.

U say that condi build , using lets say rabid amulet have great dmg and its tanky , if u say that i think u never plaied necro. Necro sustain is “good” atm just becouse he can make a lot of presure by putting condis , but when u focus necro with 2-3 ppl , some cc and he is dead.

For me the main problem is that every class have acces to condis on every build so durning a teamfight one guys is getting focused and we see every posible condi from game on him 15-20 stack od bleed , then ppl say this engi or this necro is soooo OP.Ofc i am not saying that necro is in good potions when it comes to balance becouse its not , the thing is that some specs have super easy acces to bleeds,burning,poison and even if they are not runing condi build in teamfight there is a lot of might stacking , lets say guardian or warrior or dps ele get like 20 stacks of might , its + 700 condi dmg and those 3 clases have rrealy easy access to burning. So its not only like engi and necro can spam condis , the problem is bigger and idk how devs gonna fix that.

a t s e.9614:

@whyme , I like how you ignored the part where I said condi builds can bunker while dealing massive dmg . Isint that OP? Bunker+dmg while if you try to bunker with a glass cannon build you will get facerolled.

Maybe I’m wrong who knows ? Can you post a thief bunker vid who can tank 2 people while landing 2k crits?

dont know why a bunker thief, but try D/D with 100% crit in stealth and valkyre stats.
burst and survivability. Maybe he cant tank 2 player, but stealth helps here.

Sure D\D thief can tank 2 players. You obviously don’t know anything and defend cheesy spam builds.

Dhuumfire needs to go, giving Necro Burning from auto-attack spam was a stupid idea, they never needed the extra damage.

Torment needs to go from sPvP, it’s a massive damaging condition and we didn’t need yet another damaging condition on-top of the 5 we already have. What is this condition supposed to promote except condi spam and STANDING STILL to take less damage? Worst game design I’ve ever seen.

Incendiary Powder needs to go, if an Engineer wants Burning they have the Flamethrower just for that. 50% up-time on Burning just for spamming auto-attack is an utterly abysmal game mechanic.

The game mechanics just get kitten on when you introduce such easy passive play as high condition damage procs to a game supposedly based on animations, you can’t dodge the auto-attack that applies Burning because it will keep trying to proc every time until it lands the damage and THEN it goes on cool-down, unlike a Power build where you CAN dodge the big damage attack and it goes on cool-down for 0 damage.

You also can’t cleanse condis often enough as they are re-applied far too fast due to the fact that so many skills apply several conditions, instead of them being tactical applications of damage or soft control.

sPvP has been completely ruined by condition spam just so that players in PvE can do some more damage.

a t s e.9614:

Sure D\D thief can tank 2 players. You obviously don’t know anything and defend cheesy spam builds.

Come on, stop trolling. You wanted a tank-thief, not me. The main defense of a thief is its stealth and to be honest you can’t tank while invisible. Btw i never said, he can face-tank, I only said good damage and good survivability
It is the same as a non bunker condition guardian.

Ezrael.6859:

Dhuumfire needs to go, giving Necro Burning from auto-attack spam was a stupid idea, they never needed the extra damage.

Yes and no. Necros only had the terrormancer before this patch, that dealt high condition damage, so you where forced to use this build. With dhuumfire necros got an alternative damage source, when they build full offensive and therefore terror got nerfed. Before dhuumfire, there was no reason except condition duration, to take this trait line.

Ezrael.6859:

Torment needs to go from sPvP, it’s a massive damaging condition and we didn’t need yet another damaging condition on-top of the 5 we already have. What is this condition supposed to promote except condi spam and STANDING STILL to take less damage? Worst game design I’ve ever seen.

Torment is no high damage condition, its an mix between bleed and cc, which is good for kiting. But it is not spamable in most cases. (only thief can spam them and stack them to arround 8 max. 10 without any other condition)

Ezrael.6859:

The game mechanics just get kitten on when you introduce such easy passive play as high condition damage procs to a game supposedly based on animations, you can’t dodge the auto-attack that applies Burning because it will keep trying to proc every time until it lands the damage and THEN it goes on cool-down, unlike a Power build where you CAN dodge the big damage attack and it goes on cool-down for 0 damage.

We will see 3 classes that are immune to condition damage in the next patch, but let me guess, this is good. Dhuumfire is compareable to all those +10% critdamage traits, that every calss has and guess what, that is also stupid passive play Nobody is crying about those traits, no its the op conditions.

Ezrael.6859:

You also can’t cleanse condis often enough as they are re-applied far too fast due to the fact that so many skills apply several conditions, instead of them being tactical applications of damage or soft control.

Why should everyone be able to cleanse every single condition he gets applied? This would make condition builds useless and we will see only tanks and who arrives first on the cap point wind the game.
btw, you cant cleanse direct damage at all.

Ezrael.6859:

sPvP has been completely ruined by condition spam just so that players in PvE can do some more damage.

It is not the condition spam, there are few builds that are to strong. (staff mesmer, spirit ranger…)
Conditions didn’t get buffed because of PvE, the damage difference there is still huge and you hit the condition cap on every monster, with more than one condition player. The way to go in PvE is zerker only and full glasscannon.

whyme.3281:

~

Thank you for making this discussion better!

I think that Weakness should affect Conditions just as much as regular damage.

I don’t think the duration is the problem, its the rate of application, passive procs and certain animations being hard to see.
A very simple example for my first point: if you apply a 10s burn it can be negated via one cleanse or one dodge, if you apply 7 1s burns that’s less dmg in total but more dmg if you cleanse or dodge because it won’t help against the next 6s being applied to you.
I would prefer skills with readable animations and a cast time allowing you to dodge that have a strong effect (long burn/poison, long and rather high stack of torment/bleeding) and a rather long cd over a short cd skills and traits that constantly apply shorter conditions that are hard (or impossible in case of passive procs) to dodge. Players dodging well (/blocking/blinding) would be rewarded and condition players had to make sure their skills actually land just like the classes using physical dmg. I don’t want to say there should be no passives or autoattack condis at all but they should be only low pressure, similar to the dmg physical weapons deal.

Daishi.6027:

Someone I was practicing with said “How am I supposed to cleanse all this at the rate you apply it? And how is my heal supposed to have any effect if it’s ticking for like 5 min”

The first question addressed the main problem. Because of frequency of application, it’s really hard to prioritize your main condition removal against people who are used to staggering their application when faced with a skilled foe. Vitality is not an effective counter to long-term condition damage the way toughness is against power damage. However, because a lot of conditions are tied to auto attacks/skills with low recharge, balancing this situation would require a combination of both reducing rate of application and duration, and not necessarily both at the same time for certain skills. Certain traits make it very easy to link condition application to auto attacks; these need to be toned down imo.

Is there a condition or boon duration limit? Or could you really stack it up to like 5 minutes(if it gets not removed by other things while reapplying with skills that have shorter cd thatn the amount of time they apply)?

Or was this limit only on stuff like immobilize(which I heard they want remove now so you can stack to like 20 seconds)?

i think there is cap around 1min , tbh there is simple solution remove all condis fro war , remove buring from necro ,remove confusion from engi :P

ofc it will never happen but it would be great change

Why anet want to make every calss have condi , dps and sustain builds , just for example make more vaible dps builds for wars , make more viable condi necro build , ppl then had chance to choose , i wanna play condi go necro , i wanna play dps go war. Now when every class have buring , bleed , poison etc we have ton of condi spam