Guild Wars 2

It’s no surprise that so many people would come in and say “OMG THAT IS GONNA BE SO OP IF THEY DO THAT!” However consider, right now certain classes can spam 4 or 5 conditions on a target in less than a couple seconds sometimes in one or two attacks traits depending. So in order for say a shout guard to clear those conditions he would havae to blow all his cooldowns just to negate the damage/effects done by those conditions. Having a trait where you take less damage from conditions per unique conditions would make the appliers more weary of what conditions to apply instead of rolling their face across the keyboard and watching entire teams melt because of it. Right now the removal of conditions has to be a very tactical choice. But even having a condition on you puts the player at a disadvantage compared to the person applying the condition and unless they are a necromancer the player has no real way of punishing the applier through sending it back or otherwise.

This change wouldn’t affect PvE because it would be dependent on player traits and not their vitality and for WvW I kinda already think they should remove food buffs from there. They have destroyed so many other things (mesmer confusion) in wvw on the basis of “that’s how it is in PvP” well in pvp we get no food buffs.

Anelyn.4593:

stof.9341:

Anelyn.4593:

Maybe IF our attacks (for condi weapon sets) also deal increased damage? Because pretty much that’s all there is, without stacking bleeds / poison there is no damage going (not everyone plays dhuunfire).

Maybe you shouldn’t expect doing much direct damage if you just use a Rabid amulet which is pretty defensive in itself :p Want more? Try the Rampager amulet maybe?

.

It’s just the plain simple reality, without conditions, you do 0 damage. If peeps could constantly cleanse those conditions, reduce their duration / damage, your damage would become non existant. If terror would do 4-5 k damage for duration,

Pretty sure terror does do around 5k damage in the right build. And IMO it shouldn’t do damage at all consider mesmer interrupt trait that does damage on interrupt it is negligible damage and only occurs if something gets interrupted. if it was damage on daze trait I imagine several more mesmers would take it. Fear can only be countered by a stun break since not all condi clears are stunbreaks and the amount of damage fear does even after the terror nerf is quite absurd.

Learn play with balanced build, allowed to make a few of each thing.

I like the idea of the Vitality stat providing condition damage reduction actually. Thoughness is vastly more valued than Vitality currently, in all formats of the game. This would free up that pressure you feel into taking condition removal traits and utilities, and if you go with lots of Vit you’ll either be more susceptible to direct burst or do that much less damage, it would already be balanced.
For WvW -40% and other condi duration reduction foods should get nerfed anyways.

I really like this idea, it could promore more balanced and all rounded builds instead of both extremes in damage and bunker we see currently.
It could even slow down and shape this mess of a meta we have right now.

Luke.4562:

This is what i got today. Necromacers are definetly OP. (irony)

This is probably the keyboard most Thieves are running with.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/90658/usb_nuke_button_1.jpg

Just because you are wearing a rabid amulet doesn’t mean you are ultra tanky and immune to power/crit damage builds.

I think a more realistic fix that won’t mess up PvE balancing is re-balancing the condition amulets in tPvP.

I think they should reduce the factor by which toughness and armor affects damage mitigation by a large amount and reduce all direct damage slightly. Also reduce the % mitigation from protection from 33% to 20%. And remove the vulnerability condition.

Right now condition damage is a band aid for the fact that a lot of builds are incredibly difficult (in terms of length of time, not skill required) or impossible to take down with direct damage.

jportell.2197:

It’s no surprise that so many people would come in and say “OMG THAT IS GONNA BE SO OP IF THEY DO THAT!” However consider, right now certain classes can spam 4 or 5 conditions on a target in less than a couple seconds sometimes in one or two attacks traits depending.

You know, when I was taking classes in engineering, they tried to teach us rudimentary problem solving skills. They didn’t “teach” as much as “punish you for not already knowing”, but regardless there are several things to be learned about problem solving in general.

For example, the first step in problem solving is identifying the problem. Now, after over a day of bouncing around between different extremes and troll logic, you have finally identified (what may be) the problem: There are certain classes that can apply conditions too rapidly to cleanse them.

Therefore, conditions are not overpowered. The ability to effortlessly spam them may be the problem.

This is a big step, because it helps in identifying a solution to the issue that deals specifically with a problem instead of a gigantic nuke into the metagame targeted at a tiny issue. When someon came up with the suggestion that vitality mitigates conditions directly, I said it is overpowered. While you have just denied it is overpowered, I will explain now why it is overpowered.

Toughness and vitality straddle a thin line between their effectiveness. Vitality provides a bigger health bar to take every type of damage and provides more up-front survivability, whereas toughness reduces direct damage in such a way to improve healing effectiveness, providing sustainable survivability. The important thing to note is that in this respect, they are roughly equal to each other…

However, if you give vitality reduction to condition damage, it makes it so vitality is unquestionably superior to toughness. This is gives vitality the advantage toughness had over vitality: improved healing efficiency against a certain type of damage. This would be fine, except for the fact that vitality also provides survivability against direct damage as well. This makes vitality do everything where toughness is just an inferior version to vitality.

Then we have the side effect of this change: there are classes that use conditions that do not spam a multitude of conditions all at once (a horrible simplification of how a good condition build works). Guardians, Warriors, Thieves, and Elementalists fall into this category. A suggestion such as the vitality one will completely kill any viability that these class could have in the condition line, and it will do this for no good reason whatsoever.

Likewise, increasing the cleansing available to classes will kill any hope that condi Guardians, Warriors, Thieves, and Elementalists may have. If you give every class enough cleanses to completely mitigate the conditions caused by engineers and necromancers, then this ruins the potential other condition classes have to win.

Then you have to look at things from a balanced view point. If we aren’t going to look at counter builds, then the offensive power and utility of condition builds should be equal to that of power builds. So, how do you propose that we achieve this? In what way is a condition build supposed to beat another build? You complain that condition builds just throw on a bunch of conditions, but against passive cleansing how else are they supposed to maintain an offense? Are condition builds meant to be completely countered by an adept major trait? What is the appropriate balance between condition application and cleansing? Should all classes apply an equal amount of conditions at the same rate? Should all classes have an equal amount of passive and active condition cleansing? Then we have to factor in counter builds, and how much of an advantage one build should be given against another build, even when specced to specifically beat one another.

Have you considered any of this at all before going to the forums and making a topic about it?

Look, I’m not a smart man. If I was, I’d be rich. All of this comes from effort, not brilliance. I actually try to think things through. I’d wager that most of the QQ on these forums would fade away if people would just wait 5 minutes before making up their mind on an issue, and actually look into what is causing a problem if it is a problem at all.

I’m not suggesting that vitality do anything to condition mitigation. I was not the one that suggested that. I suggested that there be a way to directly counter conditions through traits other than removals. Guardians and eles are pretty much set in this sense but other classes are way further down on the totem pole and need better condi mitigation. Which is why this is my suggestion in that is 30 points deep into the vitality FOR SOME CLASSES such as warrior, engineer, mesmer, maybe in ranger but as I understand it their condi removal is pretty decent.

My suggestion is “Take 3% less damage from conditions for each unique condition on you.” The number is not of great importance however a way to directly punish condition spammers is of great importance. There are ways to punish putting a ton of boons on yourself such as destruction of the empowered (not sure if it is taken) however I do know that flanking/larcenous strike is taken. And it is an amazing way to help a team spike down a boon heavy bunker through straight DPS.

Boon Heavy Bunkers=Have a counter through LS and condition damage.
Toughness Heavy Bunkers are countered through condition damage.
Vitality heavy bunkers are non-existent because vitality is a terrible counter to condition damage and goes down with even bigger numbers like wet tissue paper to direct damage.

So no i am not suggesting making vitality scale where you take less condition damage the more vitality you have then we would see nothing but P/T/V in the entire meta.
What I am suggesting is to make it so that there are traits that mimic the “more damage for a condition on a target” I am suggesting there be a trait that says “take x% less conditon damage for each unique condition on you.”

CC is the counter to Necro’s It seems

While my Technobabble build I run in WvW isn’t completely great for taking out Necro’s (I can do it, but its tough, really need to swap Signet of the Hunt with SoR) Its very easy to see how good Daze/Stun Builds can hurt them.

OP plays mesmer. Nuff said.

Also, people shouldn’t expect to keep conditions off them 100% of the time. Otherwise conditions would be completely useless. You need to use your clears strategically. 9 times out of 10 people will blow their condi cleanse on the first 3 bleed stacks I put on them. L2P issue I think.

Kravick.4906:

OP plays mesmer. Nuff said.

Also, people shouldn’t expect to keep conditions off them 100% of the time. Otherwise conditions would be completely useless. You need to use your clears strategically. 9 times out of 10 people will blow their condi cleanse on the first 3 bleed stacks I put on them. L2P issue I think.

Actually OP plays thief/engi/ranger/warrior/mesmer. And I don’t expect to keep conditions off me 100% of the time I expect people that spec to counter conditions to actually have a chance at doing so. Right now they don’t.

And currenlty my mesmer is shelved because they don’t bring much to a tpvp team anymore that someone else can’t do better. Which is ridiculous.

jportell.2197:

I’m not suggesting that vitality do anything to condition mitigation. I was not the one that suggested that. I suggested that there be a way to directly counter conditions through traits other than removals. Guardians and eles are pretty much set in this sense but other classes are way further down on the totem pole and need better condi mitigation. Which is why this is my suggestion in that is 30 points deep into the vitality FOR SOME CLASSES such as warrior, engineer, mesmer, maybe in ranger but as I understand it their condi removal is pretty decent.

My suggestion is “Take 3% less damage from conditions for each unique condition on you.” The number is not of great importance however a way to directly punish condition spammers is of great importance. There are ways to punish putting a ton of boons on yourself such as destruction of the empowered (not sure if it is taken) however I do know that flanking/larcenous strike is taken. And it is an amazing way to help a team spike down a boon heavy bunker through straight DPS.

Boon Heavy Bunkers=Have a counter through LS and condition damage.
Toughness Heavy Bunkers are countered through condition damage.
Vitality heavy bunkers are non-existent because vitality is a terrible counter to condition damage and goes down with even bigger numbers like wet tissue paper to direct damage.

So no i am not suggesting making vitality scale where you take less condition damage the more vitality you have then we would see nothing but P/T/V in the entire meta.
What I am suggesting is to make it so that there are traits that mimic the “more damage for a condition on a target” I am suggesting there be a trait that says “take x% less conditon damage for each unique condition on you.”

I didn’t say you suggested anything about vitality. It was someone else who mentioned the vitality idea, which you immediately supported. Of course, the beginning of your thread didn’t provide much in the way of suggesting, either:

“The game needs more. Condi removal and vitality aint cutting it.”

Is the topic post. This says nothing, so you’ll have to realize not every player is going to chase after every stray thought that comes along in the thread. After supporting another, you offer this nugget of wisdom:

“Conditions have no hard counter.”

Which is perplexing since nothing in the game is meant to be a hard counter to anything. Boon hate itself was introduced into the game not to be a hard counter, but because there was no counter for boons, period. Either you brought a necro with consume conditions, or you were stuck fighting your way past nigh permanent protection, retaliation, and vigor on bunkers. The confusing is also that condition builds do have some really powerful obstacles to deal with.

I main an engineer in sPVP, second a necro, and in WvW vice versa. I encounter builds that flatten my condition builds a lot, sometimes not even through intentional mechanics. I miss half the time because they’ve got vigor or weapon skill based evades, or they pop in and out of stealth frequently. Sometimes their direct damage is so massive that I spend half the fight just running away and blocking. Sometimes I get knocked around so much that I can’t get up and fight. Sometimes they happen to stack so much active and passive condition removal that I can’t hit them for beans. Probably the worst time I was ever pwned on my condition builds was when I was on my Engineer fighting a Mesmer who just happened to be packing Arcane Thievery. Good bye might stacks, retaliation, and swiftness, hello my own 12 second burn, 10 stacks of vulnerability, and 8 bleeds.

So when a mesmer managed to obliterate me through the use of one skill, most thieves run enough cleanse to nullify me (hide in shadows, shadow’s embrace, shadow step), guardians and elementalists have so much passive cleans that I have to risk all my cooldowns to make an impact, Automated Response Engineers laugh at me, and I can’t hit rangers for beans, I have to wonder who exactly condition builds are overpowered against. The only conclusion I can come up with are people who don’t run condition cleansing, and people who don’t know how to use condition cleansing that well (I.E. blow it as soon as they see 3 bleeds). And warriors, whom everyone is overpowered against.

jportell.2197:

Kravick.4906:

OP plays mesmer. Nuff said.

Also, people shouldn’t expect to keep conditions off them 100% of the time. Otherwise conditions would be completely useless. You need to use your clears strategically. 9 times out of 10 people will blow their condi cleanse on the first 3 bleed stacks I put on them. L2P issue I think.

Actually OP plays thief/engi/ranger/warrior/mesmer. And I don’t expect to keep conditions off me 100% of the time I expect people that spec to counter conditions to actually have a chance at doing so. Right now they don’t.

And currenlty my mesmer is shelved because they don’t bring much to a tpvp team anymore that someone else can’t do better. Which is ridiculous.

It’s more ridiculous want to counter every expect of the game with every class and every build at the same way.
And it’s obvious you are pointing necros, a class that uses conditions as a defence becouse of lack of stability, vigor, invulnerability, stealth etc etc. Same old story.
Conds reduction means ruin a part of the game aswell. Have you ever tried to play in wvw against conditions cleans? Uhm?
Basically you are asking to waste a class (or conds classes/builds ) becouse of your issues. And THIS is ridiculous.

TL;DR

The only conclusion I can come up with are people who don’t run condition cleansing, and people who don’t know how to use condition cleansing that well (I.E. blow it as soon as they see 3 bleeds)

If you cannot bring down a bunker (even with 3 offensive stats Power/Precision/Crit Damage) then just don’t waste all three stats for offense but only one and beat him. Thats very strange. You can invest 1/3th of the attributes into offense and still kill people more effectively – and you can even be rather tanky at the same time.
On top of that you apply your bleeds and then you can kite/use your defensive abilities while huge condition damage is ticking while a zerker build has to play perfectly well and has a huge risk (except maybe thiefs).
In my opinion that is the problem. Condition damage is simply too strong for what you have to invest.
A solution to this could be:
Condition damage is lowered to 1/2 of what it is now but conditions can crit. That way if someone really wants to deal tons of condition damage they have to invest into offense.
They would need to invest into condition damage/precision/critdmg to deal huge amounts of damage like power-characters too have to.
This might solve the problems in my opinion. The downside: It will probably take quite some time to implement and they might have to add armors sets with these stat combinations.
But conditions are too strong as they are now because once applied the target melts away while the applier can kite around and watch his target die.
A condition build needs to invest alot less overall time attacking. He attacks and the damage comes over time. That can be a huge advantage.
If this is not possible I support the suggestion to make a way to lower condition dmg. Vitality would really be a possible way to do so.

jmatb.6307:

I wouldn’t say all Necro builds. Running Spectral Walk and Armor takes care of that, generates life force, gives you a way to disengage if you use it and blink back to range if it gets hot, and if you use DS and hit Armor you can actually absorb a huge amount of damage. Gotta read the opponent though it’s tricky. Also if you know the other team is running condis too, then Plague Signet lets you break out and send their condis back to them.
XD

Little notes, Swalk is worthless since nerf, better go with wurm, its at least of some use. Sarmor works for 1v1, 2v2, not teamfights (strong point of necro and the aoe potential), Psignet is a fake projectile, like CB, that means if you get knocked down, 4/5 cases it gets blocked by invisible walls/pebbles on the way and it pulls condis onto you, what isnt really a good thing for any kind of pvp.
If old Swalk was still here, id agree on its not so bad (despite cc still being the bane of every necro ever) and that there is a viable defensive option to stop cc locks, now not really.

Really, peoplecomplaining about conditions being applies too fast?

So i hit 3 times with my scepter in about 4-5 seconds applying a bit of bleed and some poison, the only deep condition on necro is spite signet. and it is basicly our only fast condition application, too bad guardians can stand still, and use one click to cleanse them after that i have to wait 60 seconds to reapply them, now tell me what is the cooldown on a guardians or warriors or elemantalist or engie or ranger or thief’s (or even mesmer) cleanse?

Exactly, and if you dont bring cleanse because you want to hit for 16 k damage after a lockdown you should just stop talking..

Oh and 5k hits on terror? really? must be after 20 stacks of weakness and all conditions applied and have the necro traited for squish.

“kitten you necro’s you made me have to reconsider my build and actually think about how to cast things insted of spamming stuns & leaps while my character does the autotargeting for me so i can leap at people with my eyes closed”

really?

I run a condi clear build have condi clear in my heal skill and a trait that makes me immune at 25% HOWEVER it is still not enough. And please tell me how hard life is for your AUTO ATTACK scepter that applies condis. Or how about your several other sources of bleed/weakness/cripple in that one weapon set. And then you have a heal that clears ALLL your condis as a necro. And then you have a clear in your heal skill. You also have one that transfers conditions in a weapon set. Not to mention plague signet. Seriously necros should never gripe about clearing conditions considering the ease at which they do it.

It’s not about them being applied to fast it is the amount of clear vs. application that is imbalanced.

Necro = conditions / conditions = necro.

But yeah i will roll 2 signets on my necro utility with 60 second cd with a huge chance to miss.

Also i shall yield a staff for #4 to tranfer my conditions on you if you are silly enough to activate it while i am in it too….

again, i dont complain about our cleanse, we can cleanse out of form once.. woohoo.
Consume conditions < that is our only direct cleanse. wich is also our heal so yeah..

I complain about people not being able to cleanse while they have auto cleane in their traist. have clease on heals cleanse in utilities in elites etc most have 2-3 ways to directly cleanses not to mention their own fields to blast.

So no, necors are condition based and should be able to play with conditions other classes have. those classes in themself have cleanse out the kitten .

lets not mention Melandru or Lyssa at all in this..
[actually let’s! Equipt the runes, that support any melee/burst class, activate your elite. As far as i know you can cleanse and gain all boons with the same cd as the necro’s strongest skill.]

So yeah, learn to cleanse.

So an engineer is complaining about auto attacks applying conditions? REALLY?

Oh wait, you’re complaining about a necro AA applying conditions, your AA doing same is completely fine. Biased much? Dude seriously…. You have access to ALL conditions as an engineer, and AoE versions of them (utility kits + main weapon set + traits). You have the easiest access to most reliable and longest burns in game. A heal that cures condition (turret), stealth, can self stack might, several blocks / pull / KD / KB / confussion / snare / chill etc.

Engi condi burst is easier and more deadly than what a necro can do.

Anelyn.4593:

So an engineer is complaining about auto attacks applying conditions? REALLY?

Oh wait, you’re complaining about a necro AA applying conditions, your AA doing same is completely fine. Biased much? Dude seriously…. You have access to ALL conditions as an engineer, and AoE versions of them (utility kits + main weapon set + traits). You have the easiest access to most reliable and longest burns in game. A heal that cures condition (turret), stealth, can self stack might, several blocks / pull / KD / KB / confussion / snare / chill etc.

Engi condi burst is easier and more deadly than what a necro can do.

Except i use rifle? lol Also I spec bunker hence the automated response. I also think HGH engi is extremely overpowered. Just because I use a class doesn’t mean I don’t recognize extremely overpwowered spec. Engis can do alot but their condition damage is also out of hand this is due to the hgh bulid. Aside from that engi condi damage isn’t all that great.

jportell.2197:

It’s not about them being applied to fast it is the amount of clear vs. application that is imbalanced.

It’s ALMOST as if there’s this thing called DAMAGE, and then there’s HEALING, and the amount of healing vs. damage is imbalanced! Healing just can’t keep up!

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

It’s not about them being applied to fast it is the amount of clear vs. application that is imbalanced.

It’s ALMOST as if there’s this thing called DAMAGE, and then there’s HEALING, and the amount of healing vs. damage is imbalanced! Healing just can’t keep up!

Except for someone specs for nothing but insane healing they get rewarded by being almost impossible to kill through direct damage. However when someone builds to insanely (as insane as it can get) mitigate condition damage they are still relatively easy for any condi spec to steam roll through. There is a very big disadvantage for the effectiveness of someone that is trying to bunker against conditions.

You’ve said that before. It’s not at all true.

The Boz.2038:

You’ve said that before. It’s not at all true.

Really so a high condi damage necro won’t be able to beat a bunker guard or d/d cleric ele at all right?

jportell.2197:

The Boz.2038:

You’ve said that before. It’s not at all true.

Really so a high condi damage necro won’t be able to beat a bunker guard or d/d cleric ele at all right?

A good necro can kill a guard pretty fast. Good news is that good necros are a rarity.

Anti-power guardian? The necro will eat him for breakfast. Anti-condition guardian? The necro will most likely suicide against the retaliation.
But the ele I do see most often falling to the necro, because the ele bunker is a condition damage build, and condition necros laugh at those.

The Boz.2038:

Anti-power guardian? The necro will eat him for breakfast. Anti-condition guardian? The necro will most likely suicide against the retaliation.
But the ele I do see most often falling to the necro, because the ele bunker is a condition damage build, and condition necros laugh at those.

Anti condition guardian?`You mean a shout-guardian? ye, like the retaliation will kill him with 25k life and 20k in DS. Bunker-guards are absolute monsters. They hit you with 150 autohits. Really hard to keep up with the 1.5k fear-hits and covered burning.