Guild Wars 2

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is. They stop the application of conditions. Blinding and evading is how i’ve always fought necros before as engi without any cleanses or condi immunity and done fairly well if i play good/perfectly, even tho necro is pretty much hard counter to engi without AR.

Condition damage isn’t really all that different from Power damage beside it being unmitigated, it’s just slower but more sustained But it can also be removed completely which makes up for that.
A 10k power burst is worth more than 10k from conditions through a burst application since it can’t be removed.
Aslo 10k power damage delivered over 10seconds is exactly the same as 10k condition damage delivered over 10seconds

The problem is not really Condition damage(or well it was during first release of dumbfire) alone, it’s the amount of control a condition spec brings to the table at the same time, but if they didn’t they would be pretty much useless.
Back before cleansinge ire(when i found warrior fun to play) and all the other warriors buffs for example i never found condition damage from a necro to be the issue for example(it was annoying to slowly die after i killed a necro though!), it was the high amount of chill and cripple…

Condition classes NEED to be more naturally tanky than a power to use it’s damage effectively(this goes for any other game out there with damage over time abilities)

There is too many ways to apply alot of different conditions, but there is also too many ways to remove conditions for some classes(anyone here actully played at a higher level as necro during the double/tripple ele meta with cantrips and remember how frustrating it was?).
If you nerf condition application, especially damageing conditions, without nerfing the amount of cleanes some classes have then necros and possibly engis will be the new mesmer and ele again.
Best way to balance conditions would be to either reduce damage alot by condis and increase control conditions applications or the other way around.

Conditions/DoTs/whatever is generally more annoying to die from since it’s more agonizing and slow than getting bursted and this goes for every game. Like wow for example i always found it more annoying to die slowly from a kiteing affliction warlock than getting kited and bursted by a mage(ice mage not counted as it just stopped you from doing anything as warriors >_>)

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is. They stop the application of conditions. Blinding and evading is how i’ve always fought necros before as engi without any cleanses or condi immunity and done fairly well if i play good/perfectly, even tho necro is pretty much hard counter to engi without AR.

Condition damage isn’t really all that different from Power damage beside it being unmitigated, it’s just slower but more sustained But it can also be removed completely which makes up for that.
A 10k power burst is worth more than 10k from conditions through a burst application since it can’t be removed.
Aslo 10k power damage delivered over 10seconds is exactly the same as 10k condition damage delivered over 10seconds

The problem is not really Condition damage(or well it was during first release of dumbfire) alone, it’s the amount of control a condition spec brings to the table at the same time, but if they didn’t they would be pretty much useless.
Back before cleansinge ire(when i found warrior fun to play) and all the other warriors buffs for example i never found condition damage from a necro to be the issue for example(it was annoying to slowly die after i killed a necro though!), it was the high amount of chill and cripple…

Condition classes NEED to be more naturally tanky than a power to use it’s damage effectively(this goes for any other game out there with damage over time abilities)

There is too many ways to apply alot of different conditions, but there is also too many ways to remove conditions for some classes(anyone here actully played at a higher level as necro during the double/tripple ele meta with cantrips and remember how frustrating it was?).
If you nerf condition application, especially damageing conditions, without nerfing the amount of cleanes some classes have then necros and possibly engis will be the new mesmer and ele again.
Best way to balance conditions would be to either reduce damage alot by condis and increase control conditions applications or the other way around.

Conditions/DoTs/whatever is generally more annoying to die from since it’s more agonizing and slow than getting bursted and this goes for every game. Like wow for example i always found it more annoying to die slowly from a kiteing affliction warlock than getting kited and bursted by a mage(ice mage not counted as it just stopped you from doing anything as warriors >_>)

I don’t think nerfing condition damage outright is a good answer. I think that condition vs. physical damage is in a good place right now, in terms of balance. Conditions perform better in small scale fights, and power damage performs better in large scale combat where damage over time is less viable, and AoE cleansing happens.

I think that problem is that people can choose to protect themselves from power damage with toughness if they want. Anybody can gear up for that. The extent to which people can protect themselves from conditions has a huge amount of variance. Some classes have great cleansing, but for others it’s much less viable.

We could do a lot to alleviate this problem if there was an optional stat on gear that reduced condition damage. It’d be factored into the cost of the gear obviously, not free, so there’d be some kind of trade off, but then people wouldn’t have to center all their traits and utilities around accessing their class specific cleansing, the quality of which may not be nearly as good as the cleansing from other classes.

If auto attacks didn’t do condition damage, I think I’d be happy.

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is.

yeah sure!

your warrior is dying? shield block!
“nope!” sorry you’re getting 3k damage a second from burn, poison and bleeds that the necro caused with his auto attack.

got Svanir runes? (they’re fun to mess around with) so you’ve hit 10% hp, don’t worry you’ll turn into an invulnerable ice cube!
“nope!” sorry you’re gonna die to conditions, and you’ve just stunned yourself so you can’t heal.

and then theres the fact that no power damage will continue to kill your enemy when they’re out of your range or around corners, there is no kiting or escaping condition damage.

Conditions are broke. It is simply way too easy to apply them and too easy to go full tank with high condition damage output. On top of that you can dot someone up then concentrate on kiting or playing defensively while those conditions just eat your opponent away.

It is the ultimate low risk high reward setup that has to require the lowest skill level to play. It also forces everyone to pack as many condition removal skills as possible or you just gonna be toast. Even with them you probably gonna get overwhelmed by the sheer number and ease at which they get applied.

I play a Warrior and I’ll be the first to say that giving warriors Cleansing Ire, Dogged March, and buffing HS then giving them S/S+LB for instance was a bad idea. Bleeds on auto-attack, Crazy high damage on Torment, good mobility, AOE F1 to clear conditions, long immobilize with high bleed, blind, and burning damage…..oh and go ahead and combine tanky build with that as well. Really?

Of course it’s just not warrior its any class that can build for toughness and still rely on high consistent condition damage that is to blame. You can’t even make toughness mitigate condition damage or you will just make tanky condition appliers have even more tankiness. Condition damage in this game is just an abomination in its current state and has led to more people I played with quitting then any other single factor in GW2.

Conditions would.be fine if they needed 3 stats like physical damage.Unfortunately until then condi is terrible unbalanced spvp wise.Risk/reward tremendously in favour of reward with minimum risk while full zerk is extremely high risk.The second problem is the extreme spammable nature.

1/10 wtb dislike button.

Liewec.2896:

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is.

yeah sure!

your warrior is dying? shield block!
“nope!” sorry you’re getting 3k damage a second from burn, poison and bleeds that the necro caused with his auto attack.

got Svanir runes? (they’re fun to mess around with) so you’ve hit 10% hp, don’t worry you’ll turn into an invulnerable ice cube!
“nope!” sorry you’re gonna die to conditions, and you’ve just stunned yourself so you can’t heal.

and then theres the fact that no power damage will continue to kill your enemy when they’re out of your range or around corners, there is no kiting or escaping condition damage.

the problem with conditiondmg is the application piece by piece with random procs and autoattack. there is nothing to dodge specifically. no big hitter that apply a lot of condis on long duration that are worth cleansing.. its just spam coupled with cc to block the player from cleansing. thats why so many passive cleansing and immunity was implemented. the wrong way… the better way would be to remove the condis from autoattack to different skills and balance for that.

IF I WERE IN CHARGE I would:

—add a ‘resilience’ stat that mitigates condi damage taken
—condi clears are reworked to clear a certain # of stacks of conditions
—remove pre-set amulet stats and give players a pool of 2000 attribute points to allocate to whatever stats they choose
—put limitations on stat allocation – 800 max per attribute and no more than 1500 total offensive (power, prec, crit, cond) or 1500 defensive (tough, vital, resil, heal)

Now you have unlimited build possibilities. You can virtually create a counter to anything. You can build to passively mitigate condition damage. Condition clears remove stacks instead of entire conditions. Example 25 stacks of bleed your condi clear may remove 10 stacks. Duration-stacking conditions would be entirely removed as they would count as 1 stack. This is important because we wouldn’t want to nerf the ability to clear immobilize, cripple, chill, poison, etc.

Some builds would be extremely susceptible to condition dmg, while others would be extremely resilient against them. Just like we have with power vs toughness currently.

Lastly, I would animate condition application so that it can be just as easily dodged or blocked as direct damage, so those without resilience stat could use their skill to hopefully outplay condition classes, since their condi clearing has been nerfed.

I disagree with the part of having to be more tanky than their power counterparts. As it stands condition damage doesn’t require consistent pressure in a lot of cases. It’s usually a one-and-done type of deal that applies multiple debuffs to your target that last quite a long time and now let you play defensively.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have power. Power is affected by Health, Armor, Weakness and Protection. Not only do you have to deal with four types of passive mitigation, you have to consistently keep pressure on your target. There is no defensive play here. While I understand that power exceeds condition damage if you can constantly stay on your target, this isn’t exactly how it works.

As I’ve stated in a few threads before, you should not be able to be tanky as well as put out damage. There needs to be a sacrifice. These condition specs(Dire, Rabid, Settlers) have all the reward, little risk.

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is.

the skills that apply the conditions might be subject to those things, but the conditions themselves are not.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is.

the skills that apply the conditions might be subject to those things, but the conditions themselves are not.

Bad semantics.

The conditions themselves ARE affected exactly the same way as power damage, as long as you’re using the correct definition of “The Conditions”.

“The Conditions” are the conditions you receive from the “The Attack”. If you dodge or block “The Attack”, damage from “The Conditions” is reduced to 0, because “The Conditions” are not applied to you. This is exactly consistent with damage from power attacks.

Dodging and Blocking does not mitigate damage you’re currently taking from “Previously Applied Conditions”, in the same way that Dodging and Blocking do not mitigate damage from previously landed power based attacks.

Dodging or Blocking or causing your opponent to miss via Blind doesn’t do anything for attacks that already hit you previously, nor should it. I wish people would stop lumping in this terrible, brain dead argument with all the valid concerns about conditions as a whole.

Liewec.2896:

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is.

yeah sure!

your warrior is dying? shield block!
“nope!” sorry you’re getting 3k damage a second from burn, poison and bleeds that the necro caused with his auto attack.

If you get hit by a 10 ranger longbow auto attacks and then press block after that, it won’t help you either. The only difference is that vs. the necro, you get hit by 10 auto attacks before your health starts to get really low.

Conditions are a really interesting mechanic. As the OP said, they’re not that different from power attacks. One other difference is regen/healing—regen is more effective vs. condition damage than direct/burst damage. For example, healing signet and adrenal health more or less “keeps up” with burning. If you hit a warrior with a 5-second burn, his health will stand still; but if you hit a warrior with a 2500 damage power attack, his health will go down by 2500 (and then come back up, of course).

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Vuh.1328:

Conditions are affected by Dodge, blind, block, invulnerability, condition immunties, evade the same way power damage is.

the skills that apply the conditions might be subject to those things, but the conditions themselves are not.

In most cases you’re only prolonging the condition damage you would have been hit with, same way with power. But as the post you quoted, while these are ways to mitigate condition damage(as well as power), there are more ways on top of these.

direct damage also has to be sustained over time, meaning they have to continuously hit you. 1-shots from full to dead are incredibly rare. blocking stops that damage from incoming over time, just as condi clearing stops condition damage.

it might make sense to make condition clears stop the effects of conditions for X seconds instead of actually remove the conditions, and then nerf the durations of conditions.

a nerf of both cond damage and cond clearing at the same time is the only way it’s going to rebalance appropriately in my eyes.

Arken.3725:

I disagree with the part of having to be more tanky than their power counterparts. As it stands condition damage doesn’t require consistent pressure in a lot of cases. It’s usually a one-and-done type of deal that applies multiple debuffs to your target that last quite a long time and now let you play defensively.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, you have power. Power is affected by Health, Armor, Weakness and Protection. Not only do you have to deal with four types of passive mitigation, you have to consistently keep pressure on your target. There is no defensive play here. While I understand that power exceeds condition damage if you can constantly stay on your target, this isn’t exactly how it works.

As I’ve stated in a few threads before, you should not be able to be tanky as well as put out damage. There needs to be a sacrifice. These condition specs(Dire, Rabid, Settlers) have all the reward, little risk.

IF you removed say toughness from Rabid, at least necro/engi wouldn’t stand a chance against zerkers(which can already keep up with rabids in 1v1) mesmers/rangers can sort of deal without the toughness since they have better active defense through evades/invul/stealth.
I’ll agree that Dire seems quite over the top in WvWvW though, but i wouldn’t as far as saying settlers is in spvp on anything beside maybe rangers.
Maybe change the way condition damage(the stat) scales differently so at lower levels(up to like 1k)it deals even less damage.

And yes you need to be more tankier as a condition spec since you lose the ability to burst like a zerkers which in turns make the fight last longer already, if condi classes like necro and engi didn’t have their toughness and weakness/chill etc they would be practically free food for the current zerkers, which they almost already are if focused.
The sacrifice is you can no longer burst and your damage can be completely nullified through condi clears. Also condition specced classes like engi/necro tend to have way less in combat mobility than Zerkers.

What i would see first before any nerfs/changes to base stats would be normalize the conditions clears a bit more between all the classes, right now it’s just way to hard to balance conditions since some classes have INSANE amount of clears/immunities while some have basicly none.

You’re pretty much off base about mobility(except for necromancers). If you did remove the defensive amulets those professions would actually have to position themselves properly against zerkers. Last I checked, in most cases those hard-hitting skills have decent animations. There’s no proc-on-crits that apply significant damage, they must keep hitting you consistently.

While yes you are unable to burst as quickly as someone running zerker, your application of conditions are more guaranteed compared to zerker where most of that damage comes from melee. Another issue is that nearly all zerker players must be within melee range to do anything significant. Condition damage builds are already at an advantage in terms of range and position.

As I’ve stated before, you can’t have both. If i’m running zerker, i’m taking a huge risk in both armor and health. Conditions are only affected by removal and Vitality. Physical damage has to deal with Protection, Weakness, Armor and Vitality.

Arken.3725:

You’re pretty much off base about mobility(except for necromancers). If you did remove the defensive amulets those professions would actually have to position themselves properly against zerkers. Last I checked, in most cases those hard-hitting skills have decent animations. There’s no proc-on-crits that apply significant damage, they must keep hitting you consistently.

While yes you are unable to burst as quickly as someone running zerker, your application of conditions are more guaranteed compared to zerker where most of that damage comes from melee. Another issue is that nearly all zerker players must be within melee range to do anything significant. Condition damage builds are already at an advantage in terms of range and position.

As I’ve stated before, you can’t have both. If i’m running zerker, i’m taking a huge risk in both armor and health. Conditions are only affected by removal and Vitality. Physical damage has to deal with Protection, Weakness, Armor and Vitality.

The only other class than necro who are actully kinda viable as full condition spec is engineer and engineer don’t have high in combat mobility either, rocket boots you might say but then they have no stun breaker and squishier than most other targets available.

Try play a necro or engineer using rampager with a offensive condition spec, as in not bunker speced, against a good team that knows you are using rampager.. you will be spending more time in downstate and running to fights than actully fighting.
Only real condition class right now which can afford to run carrion(no toughness) without getting butt screwed is rangers due to their evades and decent uptime on protection
And actully most of the popular zerker classes now have fairly good range damage aswell; thief shortbow, warrior longbow, ele scepter, mesmer greatsword. They all also have better active defense than necros, necros already are super squishy even when running rabid if focused since death shroud doesn’t fill that fast as condition spec

I do think that necros and engineers need less proc traits and them moved more towards the actual skills though and i do think weakness/chill is way to harsh right now

So let me get this straight.

Condition damage and direct damage are about equal damage wise. Only conditions have a lot of cleansing against it. Where as direct damage, well, nothing really. You get hit, and that health is gone.

And a lot of people are concluding from this that there for, conditions should be weakened? I am puzzled by this.

Condition damage:
1) You apply it and yor condition deal damage wituout your action. You can use a skill to cover your enemy whit conditions (necro and engi can full an enemy of conditions in less than 5 sec) and then you can run, dodge, be blinded, stunned, knocked, confused, etc, and you deal damage anyway.
2) Conditions gives very good damage because there’s a lot of different conditons you can use. You can give 400 damage of burn + 300 of poison + 500 of bleed (whit a lot of stack) at the same time, in one second, whitout attack. 1200 at second easy to give, and if you use the auto attack deal 500+ damage (depend on the weapon and on the enemy armor). 1400-1700 damage every sec, easy to give whit the right build.
3) The enemy can clean your conditions, but you can apply conditions easy whitout all that problems, if you know how to play, and there’s a large amount of AoE condition damage Fields to use, that deal conditions damage or convert enemy boons in condiitons.
4) Almost all the weapons that give conditions = ranged weapons!
5) To max the condition damage you need ONLY ONE STAT!
6) BEST CONDITION DAMAGE EQUIPMENT IS A DEFENSIVE BUILD EQUPMENT!!!

Direct Damage:
1) If the enemy stun, blind, knock, block, evade, you can’t do damage. There’s nothing you can do to damage an enemy that block you. If the enemy hp drop he flee and you can’t do nohing to continue to deal damage. That’s why to kill a thief you need conditions damage: they flee in stealth but they continue to lose hp whit conditions and they die.
2) There’s a lot of classes that can obtain Protection, that reduce your damage dealt by 33%.
3) The best direct damage weapons is a melee weapon. you need to stop the enemy if you want to deal damage. If the enemy use stability and ranged weapons you’re in trouble. You need to use your utility to obtain skills that block the enemy, give you the chance to reach the enemy or that clean conditions (es cripple and chill). Or if you want to use a melee weapon in situations like wvsw… a bad choice.
4) To max your damage you need Power, Critical Chance and Critical Damage. 3 Stats!!!
5) Best direct damage build is a Berserker Build, that make you a glass cannon easy to kill. Dangerous, but very easy to kill.

condi is not mitiagted by toughness, condis are usually either applied by massive aoe or AA spam

to do equivalent amount of direct dmg you need power/prec stats + quite few CDs/combos…usually high dmging direct dmg attacks are also single target

direct dmg doesn’t usually involve controll, most condis have some kind of side effect

crippled + chilled at the same time is worst kitten ever

i thought condis were really strong untill i rolled hybrid necro and killed ppl with scepter AA alone… then i realized how brainless that kitten is

i think reducing aoe would help~

Silv.9207:

Condition damage:
1) You apply it and yor condition deal damage wituout your action. You can use a skill to cover your enemy whit conditions (necro and engi can full an enemy of conditions in less than 5 sec) and then you can run, dodge, be blinded, stunned, knocked, confused, etc, and you deal damage anyway.
2) Conditions gives very good damage because there’s a lot of different conditons you can use. You can give 400 damage of burn + 300 of poison + 500 of bleed (whit a lot of stack) at the same time, in one second, whitout attack. 1200 at second easy to give, and if you use the auto attack deal 500+ damage (depend on the weapon and on the enemy armor). 1400-1700 damage every sec, easy to give whit the right build.
3) The enemy can clean your conditions, but you can apply conditions easy whitout all that problems, if you know how to play, and there’s a large amount of AoE condition damage Fields to use, that deal conditions damage or convert enemy boons in condiitons.
4) Almost all the weapons that give conditions = ranged weapons!
5) To max the condition damage you need ONLY ONE STAT!
6) BEST CONDITION DAMAGE EQUIPMENT IS A DEFENSIVE BUILD EQUPMENT!!!

Direct Damage:
1) If the enemy stun, blind, knock, block, evade, you can’t do damage. There’s nothing you can do to damage an enemy that block you. If the enemy hp drop he flee and you can’t do nohing to continue to deal damage. That’s why to kill a thief you need conditions damage: they flee in stealth but they continue to lose hp whit conditions and they die.

2) There’s a lot of classes that can obtain Protection, that reduce your damage dealt by 33%.
3) The best direct damage weapons is a melee weapon. you need to stop the enemy if you want to deal damage. If the enemy use stability and ranged weapons you’re in trouble. You need to use your utility to obtain skills that block the enemy, give you the chance to reach the enemy or that clean conditions (es cripple and chill). Or if you want to use a melee weapon in situations like wvsw… a bad choice.
4) To max your damage you need Power, Critical Chance and Critical Damage. 3 Stats!!!
5) Best direct damage build is a Berserker Build, that make you a glass cannon easy to kill. Dangerous, but very easy to kill.

Condition:
1. Same with power actully beside the damage is applied instantly as power damage, no need to wait for the damage to happen.
2. burn ticks for almost 600, poison less then 200, bleeds, slightly less than 100 per stack. Only necros and rangers can reliably stack over 10 bleeds, engineers can however stack higher amount of burning. Engineer #1 with pistol is a 2½ second bleed, 156 damage and ½ second cast time. Not sure about necros.
Thieves can crit for over 3k on a light armor target with using 1 on sword, i’ve seen up to 4k and most zerkers can easly reach over 2k on their autos.
3. I’ll agree that alot of the aoes are kinda condi based.
4. True
5. False you need 2 stats, duration and damage, and tougness actully else you will never be able to live long enough for your damage to actully matter.
6. Rabid isn’t really defensive, at the very least the toughness is needed to even be able to keep up with zerkers in a 1v1, try using rampager instead and you will die way to easy.

Direct damage:
1. If the enemy stuns, blind, knock, block, evade you can’t apply conditions to the target so no damage is done.
2. True
3. Mesmer greatsword great damage at range, thief shortbow great damage at “range” just not as high damage as sword or dagger, warrior longbow, ok damage if you can hit your arcing arrows, ele scepter is almost a range weapon.
4. Truth.
5. Truth, but zerker classes that are viable(thief, mesmer, ele, warrior) all have better ways to avoid taking hits than both engi and necro(necro gotta tank all the damage).

Cynz.9437:

condi is not mitiagted by toughness, condis are usually either applied by massive aoe or AA spam

to do equivalent amount of direct dmg you need power/prec stats + quite few CDs/combos…usually high dmging direct dmg attacks are also single target

direct dmg doesn’t usually involve controll, most condis have some kind of side effect

crippled + chilled at the same time is worst kitten ever

i thought condis were really strong untill i rolled hybrid necro and killed ppl with scepter AA alone… then i realized how brainless that kitten is

i think reducing aoe would help~

That is the main problem with conditions along with stuff like burn on crit, which should be on actual skills instead.
I think splitting the damageing conditions and the control conditions would make it better, but would probably require alot of weapon skill reworks :/
Hybrid damage in general is quite kitten stupid, that “old” axe+sword+longbow had incredible damage aswell.

AOE damage need to be reduced in general, not just condition aoe yeah

1. Except as we’ve discussed, Power requires you to constantly hit your opponent. You can’t just hit someone once and run away to play defensively.

2. You can’t just put Thieves as the only reasonable argument for significant direct-damage. The rest of the professions actually require proper position and obvious animation.

5. It is true, you do need two stats but i’d say 90% of it goes to just Condition Damage. The only real time I see someone stack a bit of duration is to increase burning for an additional tick.

6. Rabid is a defensive amulet. The only professions that can get away with this are those with mid-high tier health. Once you’ve reached that threshold, you now have the best of both offense and defense. You never see a Guardian, Thief or Elementalist run with this because of the low base health. Not to mention the lack of condition stacking.

Just to go a little off-topic here. Are we really advocating that Conditions are okay the way they are? As stated above most if not all are from ranged, AoE and have very little animation attached to properly dodge. Hell, even if you do dodge, you’ll eventually get hit with a crit for a burning proc and then it all rolls down hill. Very little counter play and no thought process on the attackers behalf.

Blackjack.2083:

Conditions are broke. It is simply way too easy to apply them and too easy to go full tank with high condition damage output. On top of that you can dot someone up then concentrate on kiting or playing defensively while those conditions just eat your opponent away.

It is the ultimate low risk high reward setup that has to require the lowest skill level to play. It also forces everyone to pack as many condition removal skills as possible or you just gonna be toast. Even with them you probably gonna get overwhelmed by the sheer number and ease at which they get applied.

I play a Warrior and I’ll be the first to say that giving warriors Cleansing Ire, Dogged March, and buffing HS then giving them S/S+LB for instance was a bad idea. Bleeds on auto-attack, Crazy high damage on Torment, good mobility, AOE F1 to clear conditions, long immobilize with high bleed, blind, and burning damage…..oh and go ahead and combine tanky build with that as well. Really?

Of course it’s just not warrior its any class that can build for toughness and still rely on high consistent condition damage that is to blame. You can’t even make toughness mitigate condition damage or you will just make tanky condition appliers have even more tankiness. Condition damage in this game is just an abomination in its current state and has led to more people I played with quitting then any other single factor in GW2.

^

Arken.3725:

1. Except as we’ve discussed, Power requires you to constantly hit your opponent. You can’t just hit someone once and run away to play defensively.

2. You can’t just put Thieves as the only reasonable argument for significant direct-damage. The rest of the professions actually require proper position and obvious animation.

5. It is true, you do need two stats but i’d say 90% of it goes to just Condition Damage. The only real time I see someone stack a bit of duration is to increase burning for an additional tick.

6. Rabid is a defensive amulet. The only professions that can get away with this are those with mid-high tier health. Once you’ve reached that threshold, you now have the best of both offense and defense. You never see a Guardian, Thief or Elementalist run with this because of the low base health. Not to mention the lack of condition stacking.

Just to go a little off-topic here. Are we really advocating that Conditions are okay the way they are? As stated above most if not all are from ranged, AoE and have very little animation attached to properly dodge. Hell, even if you do dodge, you’ll eventually get hit with a crit for a burning proc and then it all rolls down hill. Very little counter play and no thought process on the attackers behalf.

No i don’t conditions are okay as they are, there need to be less reliant on autos/on crit procs and more reliance on actual skill usage with clear animations, but some power setups need more tells as well on their bursts. Also think hybrid amulets should go away, they either are useless or make certain specs vs some classes way to over the top.

1. While power needs to constantly hit your target the damage is applied instantaneously and cannot be cleansed so i don’t see a problem here.
2. Positioning is just as important as a engi/necro since while you have more toughness than both say mesmer and thief, they have better active defense and tend to have blinks/teleports to instantly disengage.
5. So much wrong here, both necros and engineers stacked duration just as much before dhumfire patch to be able to keep their conditions up, it’s not all about the burn ticks(or well for engineers it sort is cause their ability to stack bleed is pretty minimal compared to say necro).
6. Only reason why thief, guardian, ele can’t go rabid is cause they have bad condition builds in general and it’s not cause of their hp, if eles for example could put out as much condition pressure with several different conditions like a engi/necro then it would be totally viable. Same reason why zerker necro, engi, guardian isn’t viable since mesmer,thief, warrior just outshines them in every way
When i’m on my mesmer i don’t have too much trouble keeping up with engineer/necro damage, if they didn’t have the toughness from rapid they would be dead meat to any burst power class in the game. The main thing that makes me lose vs necros/engis is not actually the damage they do but the blind+weakness/chills they do.
If weakness would get nerfed again you would suddenly see way more power specs become viable again.

I’m sorry you are playing guardian and tries to make zerker/condi viable, but that isn’t a problem with other classes, more about your own class..

Blackjack.2083:

Conditions are broke. It is simply way too easy to apply them and too easy to go full tank with high condition damage output. On top of that you can dot someone up then concentrate on kiting or playing defensively while those conditions just eat your opponent away.

It is the ultimate low risk high reward setup that has to require the lowest skill level to play. It also forces everyone to pack as many condition removal skills as possible or you just gonna be toast. Even with them you probably gonna get overwhelmed by the sheer number and ease at which they get applied.

I play a Warrior and I’ll be the first to say that giving warriors Cleansing Ire, Dogged March, and buffing HS then giving them S/S+LB for instance was a bad idea. Bleeds on auto-attack, Crazy high damage on Torment, good mobility, AOE F1 to clear conditions, long immobilize with high bleed, blind, and burning damage…..oh and go ahead and combine tanky build with that as well. Really?

Of course it’s just not warrior its any class that can build for toughness and still rely on high consistent condition damage that is to blame. You can’t even make toughness mitigate condition damage or you will just make tanky condition appliers have even more tankiness. Condition damage in this game is just an abomination in its current state and has led to more people I played with quitting then any other single factor in GW2.

I’m pretty sure the ridiculous state of warriors and s/d thieves have made more non warrior/thiefs quit than conditions have.
Warrior is also the only class right now besides maaaaaaybe rangers who can build conditions and tanky to become truely tanky, Necros and engis running a standard condition build with rabid is already quite squishy since they have no ways to disengage.
Also people should listen less to players like you who actually seem to think warrior requires skill

Arken.3725:

1. Except as we’ve discussed, Power requires you to constantly hit your opponent. You can’t just hit someone once and run away to play defensively.

2. You can’t just put Thieves as the only reasonable argument for significant direct-damage. The rest of the professions actually require proper position and obvious animation.

5. It is true, you do need two stats but i’d say 90% of it goes to just Condition Damage. The only real time I see someone stack a bit of duration is to increase burning for an additional tick.

6. Rabid is a defensive amulet. The only professions that can get away with this are those with mid-high tier health. Once you’ve reached that threshold, you now have the best of both offense and defense. You never see a Guardian, Thief or Elementalist run with this because of the low base health. Not to mention the lack of condition stacking.

Just to go a little off-topic here. Are we really advocating that Conditions are okay the way they are? As stated above most if not all are from ranged, AoE and have very little animation attached to properly dodge. Hell, even if you do dodge, you’ll eventually get hit with a crit for a burning proc and then it all rolls down hill. Very little counter play and no thought process on the attackers behalf.

I really don’t know why you are still complaining about conditions because we are not in a condition meta anymore. If this was a condi meta we would see teams running more necros/engineers. The most dominant comp in the game right now is Guardian, Warrior, Warrior, Thief, Ranger. One condi class.

In case you hadn’t noticed, the condition based classes (Necro, Engi, Ranger) are also the classes with the least amount of in-built defense to CC and power damage. Having little to no stability and bad stunbreakers in general.

A PTV warrior can kitten on any of these classes and shrug off all conditions with cleansing ire, lyssa runes and berserker’s stance. It isn’t very hard to do. Oh, and a PTV warrior is also much much tankier than either a necro or engi.

So, yes, Arken, conditions are fine. Every time you fight a condition class you have a double chance to avoid the damage: either by evading or by cleansing at the proper time.

infantrydiv.1620:

Arken.3725:

1. Except as we’ve discussed, Power requires you to constantly hit your opponent. You can’t just hit someone once and run away to play defensively.

2. You can’t just put Thieves as the only reasonable argument for significant direct-damage. The rest of the professions actually require proper position and obvious animation.

5. It is true, you do need two stats but i’d say 90% of it goes to just Condition Damage. The only real time I see someone stack a bit of duration is to increase burning for an additional tick.

6. Rabid is a defensive amulet. The only professions that can get away with this are those with mid-high tier health. Once you’ve reached that threshold, you now have the best of both offense and defense. You never see a Guardian, Thief or Elementalist run with this because of the low base health. Not to mention the lack of condition stacking.

Just to go a little off-topic here. Are we really advocating that Conditions are okay the way they are? As stated above most if not all are from ranged, AoE and have very little animation attached to properly dodge. Hell, even if you do dodge, you’ll eventually get hit with a crit for a burning proc and then it all rolls down hill. Very little counter play and no thought process on the attackers behalf.

I really don’t know why you are still complaining about conditions because we are not in a condition meta anymore. If this was a condi meta we would see teams running more necros/engineers. The most dominant comp in the game right now is Guardian, Warrior, Warrior, Thief, Ranger. One condi class.

In case you hadn’t noticed, the condition based classes (Necro, Engi, Ranger) are also the classes with the least amount of in-built defense to CC and power damage. Having little to no stability and bad stunbreakers in general.

A PTV warrior can kitten on any of these classes and shrug off all conditions with cleansing ire, lyssa runes and berserker’s stance. It isn’t very hard to do. Oh, and a PTV warrior is also much much tankier than either a necro or engi.

So, yes, Arken, conditions are fine. Every time you fight a condition class you have a double chance to avoid the damage: either by evading or by cleansing at the proper time.

We’re not in the condition meta anymore, you can blame Warriors for that. However, that doesn’t mean that those builds aren’t relevant to the meta along with Warriors.

And built-in defense? Necromancers are the only ones on that list that have very little defense when it comes to CC and power. Engineers have Constant Swiftness, tons of vigor, protection upon cced/crit and a lot of AoE to help them retreat along with the shortest cd shield stance. Rangers have quite a few evades and a lot of protection up time.

Necromancers are the only ones with a valid argument. The rest, absolutely not.

Also, can we stop comparing these to the Warrior? The discussion is about conditions, not how obviously OP Warriors are at this moment.

Certainly the strength of conditions like chill and weakness are the most frustrating part. They just so happen to be more abundant in condi specs and also get more condi duration than everyone else.

You can dodge a time-limited Eviscerate or Pistol Whip with your limited Endurance.

Have fun dodging a spirit ranger’s autoattacks just completely wrecking you.

That’s the problem with conditions. I agree with you however that both condition application and cleansing has to be nerfed. Unfortunately it looks like Anet plans to carry on buffing cleansing to compensate for the crazy condition application in the game right now.

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

So let me get this straight.

Condition damage and direct damage are about equal damage wise. Only conditions have a lot of cleansing against it. Where as direct damage, well, nothing really. You get hit, and that health is gone.

And a lot of people are concluding from this that there for, conditions should be weakened? I am puzzled by this.

Most people have no idea how they work and absolutely refuse to even attempt to understand.

There is no logic to the typical anti-condi arguments, the devs are smart enough to know this and make changes accordingly.

often complaints come from ‘zerkers, who can kill in 2-3 hits yet complain when they can be killed easily themselves. It’s a tired case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.

If only people would try out what they think might be OP before complaining, we’d get so much less of this.

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

Phantaram.1265:

Certainly the strength of conditions like chill and weakness are the most frustrating part. They just so happen to be more abundant in condi specs and also get more condi duration than everyone else.

this what i’ve been trying to say, you said it in less words

Jzaku.9765:

You can dodge a time-limited Eviscerate or Pistol Whip with your limited Endurance.

Have fun dodging a spirit ranger’s autoattacks just completely wrecking you.

That’s the problem with conditions. I agree with you however that both condition application and cleansing has to be nerfed. Unfortunately it looks like Anet plans to carry on buffing cleansing to compensate for the crazy condition application in the game right now.

Which will lead to buffs in condition applications eventually which will hurt the classes that are left with horrible cleansing :/

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

That would most certainly help the issue at hand. I’m just discussing other problems. I can honestly say the only time I ever have an issue is anytime I get hit with a crit(happens all the time because I don’t have nearly enough condition cleanse to keep up. Removing it initially usually puts a skill you have on a long cd and then you have a small opportunity to try and return the favor. Problem is, like most of these specs, they’re built defensively. So not only are you going to have trouble getting to your opponent(sticking to them as well) but you’re dealing less damage because of the innate high armor/health.

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

That would most certainly help the issue at hand. I’m just discussing other problems. I can honestly say the only time I ever have an issue is anytime I get hit with a crit(happens all the time because I don’t have nearly enough condition cleanse to keep up. Removing it initially usually puts a skill you have on a long cd and then you have a small opportunity to try and return the favor. Problem is, like most of these specs, they’re built defensively. So not only are you going to have trouble getting to your opponent(sticking to them as well) but you’re dealing less damage because of the innate high armor/health.

Yeah but if they didn’t have the defense there situation would be the condition user dying before even having a chance of his damage to do it’s work, which would be an equal big problem. Dps guardian in general have very hard time to stick to anything kiting though

To be honest, I feel like cleansing should be reduced, as well as application. In my mind, the problem with condis are:

1. Lack of animations: I have been playing my necro lately, and I find it silly that with staff and scepter, I just wave my hand and BOOM: Condis applied. There is no projectile on scepter 1. There is no warning that a mark is below you that you have to dodge. Just a wave of the hand, and I am not sure if the attack is an important one or less important one.

2. Applying multiple condis in single attacks – especially from traits. A fight stays reasonable when someone is putting out a slow stream of condis, or even has a skill like signet of spite that I KNOW to watch for and dodge. If I die b/c Spite hits me – its my fault. What kills me is when I get condi bursted by on-swap or on-proc traits/sigils that let condi users burst-apply condis from nowhere without additional cast-times.

3. Immediate proc as opposed to fields, or even slow attacks. Let’s compare a power weapon that can AOE wreck a team if unchecked to a condi weapon that does: Staff ele vs. staff necro. Staff ele requires people to be cc’d in a field or to jaunt around in meteor shower for quite a while to kill them. Necro just waves his arms and everyone has all of the damaging effect applied instantly. Engie nades/bombs just proc and you have all the condis.

I think if some of these things were fixed, it wouldn’t be an issue that condi-specs could be defensive. For instance, a settler’s amulet ele isn’t killing anyone, because he can’t just apply a million condis then kite. Necros, engies, and even spirit rangers and condi warriors can just chain multiple attacks that load you up with all kinds of condis then kite. If we reduce number that are applied/spammed out then they can keep the tankiness necessary for their DoTs to have effect and require them to keep application up to prevent cleansing.

BlackBeard.2873:

To be honest, I feel like cleansing should be reduced, as well as application. In my mind, the problem with condis are:

1. Lack of animations: I have been playing my necro lately, and I find it silly that with staff and scepter, I just wave my hand and BOOM: Condis applied. There is no projectile on scepter 1. There is no warning that a mark is below you that you have to dodge. Just a wave of the hand, and I am not sure if the attack is an important one or less important one.

2. Applying multiple condis in single attacks – especially from traits. A fight stays reasonable when someone is putting out a slow stream of condis, or even has a skill like signet of spite that I KNOW to watch for and dodge. If I die b/c Spite hits me – its my fault. What kills me is when I get condi bursted by on-swap or on-proc traits/sigils that let condi users burst-apply condis from nowhere without additional cast-times.

3. Immediate proc as opposed to fields, or even slow attacks. Let’s compare a power weapon that can AOE wreck a team if unchecked to a condi weapon that does: Staff ele vs. staff necro. Staff ele requires people to be cc’d in a field or to jaunt around in meteor shower for quite a while to kill them. Necro just waves his arms and everyone has all of the damaging effect applied instantly. Engie nades/bombs just proc and you have all the condis.

I think if some of these things were fixed, it wouldn’t be an issue that condi-specs could be defensive. For instance, a settler’s amulet ele isn’t killing anyone, because he can’t just apply a million condis then kite. Necros, engies, and even spirit rangers and condi warriors can just chain multiple attacks that load you up with all kinds of condis then kite. If we reduce number that are applied/spammed out then they can keep the tankiness necessary for their DoTs to have effect and require them to keep application up to prevent cleansing.

I completely agree with most of the things you said, especially the animation part.
However if you reduce the amount of condis from proc traits(which they should) without reducing the sustain of some classes like warrior and cleanses then the condition builds would need to be compensated through skills somehow(necros could get the bleeds back for example).
But i’d start with removing the burn on crits for necro and engineer and instead add a few more bleeds or a tick of burn on some weapon skill, reduce the cleansing(especially passive) for some classes but add a bit better access to better cleanses for classes that have big troubles with conditions(mesmer/engi without AR for example) to normalize it. Also change some of the cleansing abilities to specific cleansing.
Oh and change the immunity skills/traits like Automated Response, Berserker Stance, Diamond Skin.

Solstice.1097:

IF I WERE IN CHARGE I would:

—add a ‘resilience’ stat that mitigates condi damage taken
—condi clears are reworked to clear a certain # of stacks of conditions
—remove pre-set amulet stats and give players a pool of 2000 attribute points to allocate to whatever stats they choose
—put limitations on stat allocation – 800 max per attribute and no more than 1500 total offensive (power, prec, crit, cond) or 1500 defensive (tough, vital, resil, heal)

Now you have unlimited build possibilities. You can virtually create a counter to anything. You can build to passively mitigate condition damage. Condition clears remove stacks instead of entire conditions. Example 25 stacks of bleed your condi clear may remove 10 stacks. Duration-stacking conditions would be entirely removed as they would count as 1 stack. This is important because we wouldn’t want to nerf the ability to clear immobilize, cripple, chill, poison, etc.

Some builds would be extremely susceptible to condition dmg, while others would be extremely resilient against them. Just like we have with power vs toughness currently.

Lastly, I would animate condition application so that it can be just as easily dodged or blocked as direct damage, so those without resilience stat could use their skill to hopefully outplay condition classes, since their condi clearing has been nerfed.

This guy knows what to do.

Solstice.1097:

IF I WERE IN CHARGE I would:

—add a ‘resilience’ stat that mitigates condi damage taken
—condi clears are reworked to clear a certain # of stacks of conditions
—remove pre-set amulet stats and give players a pool of 2000 attribute points to allocate to whatever stats they choose
—put limitations on stat allocation – 800 max per attribute and no more than 1500 total offensive (power, prec, crit, cond) or 1500 defensive (tough, vital, resil, heal)

Now you have unlimited build possibilities. You can virtually create a counter to anything. You can build to passively mitigate condition damage. Condition clears remove stacks instead of entire conditions. Example 25 stacks of bleed your condi clear may remove 10 stacks. Duration-stacking conditions would be entirely removed as they would count as 1 stack. This is important because we wouldn’t want to nerf the ability to clear immobilize, cripple, chill, poison, etc.

Some builds would be extremely susceptible to condition dmg, while others would be extremely resilient against them. Just like we have with power vs toughness currently.

Lastly, I would animate condition application so that it can be just as easily dodged or blocked as direct damage, so those without resilience stat could use their skill to hopefully outplay condition classes, since their condi clearing has been nerfed.

I like this.. But arenanet will never ever do something like this since it would require way to much stuff to rework for them

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

That would most certainly help the issue at hand. I’m just discussing other problems. I can honestly say the only time I ever have an issue is anytime I get hit with a crit(happens all the time because I don’t have nearly enough condition cleanse to keep up. Removing it initially usually puts a skill you have on a long cd and then you have a small opportunity to try and return the favor. Problem is, like most of these specs, they’re built defensively. So not only are you going to have trouble getting to your opponent(sticking to them as well) but you’re dealing less damage because of the innate high armor/health.

Yeah but if they didn’t have the defense there situation would be the condition user dying before even having a chance of his damage to do it’s work, which would be an equal big problem. Dps guardian in general have very hard time to stick to anything kiting though

I’m not 100% sure that would be the case. All it would do would require the condition player to watch the animations of power users more closely instead of relying on passive effects. You could be right, it might hinder some classes to allow their conditions to work but if you can avoid most animations from power users(except thiefs), you should be fine in most cases.

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

That would most certainly help the issue at hand. I’m just discussing other problems. I can honestly say the only time I ever have an issue is anytime I get hit with a crit(happens all the time because I don’t have nearly enough condition cleanse to keep up. Removing it initially usually puts a skill you have on a long cd and then you have a small opportunity to try and return the favor. Problem is, like most of these specs, they’re built defensively. So not only are you going to have trouble getting to your opponent(sticking to them as well) but you’re dealing less damage because of the innate high armor/health.

Yeah but if they didn’t have the defense there situation would be the condition user dying before even having a chance of his damage to do it’s work, which would be an equal big problem. Dps guardian in general have very hard time to stick to anything kiting though

I’m not 100% sure that would be the case. All it would do would require the condition player to watch the animations of power users more closely instead of relying on passive effects. You could be right, it might hinder some classes to allow their conditions to work but if you can avoid most animations from power users(except thiefs), you should be fine in most cases.

You already have to do that as a condition user though, unless you want to be free meat for thieves, warriors, mesmers.

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

That would most certainly help the issue at hand. I’m just discussing other problems. I can honestly say the only time I ever have an issue is anytime I get hit with a crit(happens all the time because I don’t have nearly enough condition cleanse to keep up. Removing it initially usually puts a skill you have on a long cd and then you have a small opportunity to try and return the favor. Problem is, like most of these specs, they’re built defensively. So not only are you going to have trouble getting to your opponent(sticking to them as well) but you’re dealing less damage because of the innate high armor/health.

Yeah but if they didn’t have the defense there situation would be the condition user dying before even having a chance of his damage to do it’s work, which would be an equal big problem. Dps guardian in general have very hard time to stick to anything kiting though

I’m not 100% sure that would be the case. All it would do would require the condition player to watch the animations of power users more closely instead of relying on passive effects. You could be right, it might hinder some classes to allow their conditions to work but if you can avoid most animations from power users(except thiefs), you should be fine in most cases.

You already have to do that as a condition user though, unless you want to be free meat for thieves, warriors, mesmers.

You’re absolutely right. That would require re-balancing of those mechanics on specific professions to bring it more inline. I don’t like having to rely on these passives, especially when such passives have little risk involved. Again, it’s just something that would need to be looked at across all professions.

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

Vuh.1328:

Arken.3725:

style.6173:

Direct condi damage is fine. What needs to be nerfed is AOE condi damage. It is skill-less. Same goes with AOE power.

I don’t believe that to be the case. Nearly all condition damage is applied at range with little animation and/or counterplay(proc on crits). AoE is a huge problem but that doesn’t mean single-target isn’t an issue.

So we can kinda agree on that condition damage would be fine if it was applied more through skills who had animations and less from autos/crits And also less weakness/chill split more from condition damageing moves??
Actually though most “lots of condi” abilities have pretty nice cast times(necro casts) and animations(engineer), altho this isn’t just a problem with condition specs only

That would most certainly help the issue at hand. I’m just discussing other problems. I can honestly say the only time I ever have an issue is anytime I get hit with a crit(happens all the time because I don’t have nearly enough condition cleanse to keep up. Removing it initially usually puts a skill you have on a long cd and then you have a small opportunity to try and return the favor. Problem is, like most of these specs, they’re built defensively. So not only are you going to have trouble getting to your opponent(sticking to them as well) but you’re dealing less damage because of the innate high armor/health.

Yeah but if they didn’t have the defense there situation would be the condition user dying before even having a chance of his damage to do it’s work, which would be an equal big problem. Dps guardian in general have very hard time to stick to anything kiting though

I’m not 100% sure that would be the case. All it would do would require the condition player to watch the animations of power users more closely instead of relying on passive effects. You could be right, it might hinder some classes to allow their conditions to work but if you can avoid most animations from power users(except thiefs), you should be fine in most cases.

You already have to do that as a condition user though, unless you want to be free meat for thieves, warriors, mesmers.

You’re absolutely right. That would require re-balancing of those mechanics on specific professions to bring it more inline. I don’t like having to rely on these passives, especially when such passives have little risk involved. Again, it’s just something that would need to be looked at across all professions.

I like how we are finally agreein on things! ;D

We’ve been agreeing all along just on different fronts. I like to see the removal of brainless traits that provide too much benefit, Amulets that let you have the best of both worlds and a re balance of skills to compensate for such changes. Less passives in this game, the better.

True, these game mechanism affects the same to attacks that applies condition vs direct damage, it will always work the same. but that doesn’t mean it’s gonna affect condi and zerker gameplay the same.
Is blind and retal works the same to condi attack and direct? yes. but that doesn’t mean it’s balanced. They don’t have the same effect on condi gameplay as they do on direct dmg. Blind doesn’t work on warrior longbow F1, thief caltrops, ranger traps, etc, either do retaliation. Is the rule clear and fair yes. But does it have the same effect on both? No!

Edited by Moderator

If field goal scores 6 and touch down scores 3, is that fair to both teams, yes. But is this rule kittened up and gonna ruin the game, also YES.

Why are you so obsessed with warrior longbow F1, choking gas etc? They are mostly used in power builds anyway, and caltrop thieves have no place in the game anyway.

And yes you are wrong, blind hurts the normal condition builds just as much as power. Get some experience with higher level spvp play before you start to speak nonsense or atleast post on your main account.

But anyway instead of trying to make you understand how condi builds/classes actually work since that is a lost cause and you seem to have zero actual experience with them, how would you balance it so it would still remain viable?

test

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Vuh.1328:

Why are you so obsessed with warrior longbow F1, choking gas etc? They are mostly used in power builds anyway, and caltrop thieves have no place in the game anyway.

And yes you are wrong, blind hurts the normal condition builds just as much as power. Get some experience with higher level spvp play before you start to speak nonsense or atleast post on your main account.

But anyway instead of trying to make you understand how condi builds/classes actually work since that is a lost cause and you seem to have zero actual experience with them, how would you balance it so it would still remain viable?

Blind doesn’t affect condi build as much as power build, stop spreading your lies. vs power build, blind, weakness, confusion, retaliation, blocking, invul, stealth often means losing all or most pressure from opponent, but not so much when against condi builds. Being pressureless is golden, it gives us chance to target the real mesmer, stomp or ress downed. I hope I don’t have to breakdown how important ress and stomp is in this game.
You are so obsessed repeating game mechanism is the same for condi attack and direct attack, how many “yes” do you want to get from the community. It won’t change the fact that “most of condi, boon, and game mechanism affect less or none to condi gameplay”. For once, can you name us one condition or boon that only counters condi dmg and not power dmg?.
We all hate one button win gameplay, it’s cheap and not fun to watch however one button is how condi is mostly countered by, it’s just you have it or not.Letting power dominate we can see how weakness, chill, cripple, invul, blocking, retal, confusion, protection, positioning, movement.. are applied at the right time to counter that 7k backstab. Wouldn’t that be more fun to watch than “well this guy didn’t bring condi cleanse at all, he is kittened” or “OMG he pressed that F1 cleanse, he is WIN”.
This game has gone too far on condi, how many times you are downed by condi as VS power? How many times your banner is kittened up by poison. There are countless game mechanism that punishes and counters movement and activity, and can you name me one game mechanism that punishes passive gameplay, standing still, doing nothing but just healing.
Bottom line:
1. Most game mechanism affect less or none on condi gameplay.
2. Condi countering is cheap and no-fun.

Counter that.