Guild Wars 2

That’s right, the reason why there isn’t much build diversity is simply because conditions killed condition builds.

Here are the three culprits, traitors to their own kind. The conditions that killed conditions:

• Burning.
• Poison.
• Immobilize.

Burning deals high damage, even at low condition damage. Poison halts recovery by 33% and deals low damage, lastly immobilize allows crucial skills to hit.

Obvious right? Well, what’s not so obvious is that this combo KILLED condition builds.
Burning and poison makes it IMPOSSIBLE to out sustain unless you have a constant flow of condition removal. Even then, it’s poison and burning are brutal.

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So… What happened? Celestial happened. It didn’t take players to long to figure out burning and poison is all they ever need. To make things even worse, four classes can SPAM burning and poison. Even if the class has poison in their weapon skills, Sigil of Doom is infinitely better as it triggers on ANY attack, making poison available for any class on any build.

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This is why the meta is Celestial, why it’s not as effective to try to stack torment, bleeding or confusion. It’s why Rabids or Settler amulet is far outclassed by Celestials. Burning, poison and immobilize, are easier to achieve than trying to stack 8 stacks of bleeding.

I’ll say that again.
It is EASIER to spam immobilize, burning and poison than applying 8 stacks of bleeding.

That’s not okay.

There is a lot of things wrong with Guild Wars 2 PvP and it’s very apparent ArenaNet struggles to pin point the issue. Not to mention, even if they fix this problem, it still leaves GW2 with a low PvP community. Balance will come, but it should not be first. When it does come, this needs to be looked it.

Okay? They already said burning and poison will stack intensity, so that’ll solve this issue.

(snip)

Ok I follow your argument better. You’re right Celestial trivializes the concept of building condis as a priority of damage dealing.

Nova Stiker.8396:

There is a lot of things wrong with Guild Wars 2 PvP and it’s very apparent ArenaNet struggles to pin point the issue.

You and I perceive that thread very differently. They have statistics that literally shows them what we do and don’t like. They also realizes that pvp needs more resources than the current priorities they currently have allocated.

Celestials vs Conditions vs everything else is just a balance issue, that’s… imo.. going to be fixed in Stronghold. That’s not to say balancing isn’t needed, though.

The Wizland.8435:

Okay? They already said burning and poison will stack intensity, so that’ll solve this issue.

Until I see an article about it, I’m just going to assume it’s an idea. And yes, they have said and shown the changes. But everything is liable to change.

I’d say shoutbows had a hand in it too.

Well, I don’t think that those conditions “killed” conditions, you even said yourself that those conditions are still heavily used. Besides, as said above, they will stack in intensity, which will solve some of the Problem if you use your removal smartly.

What really killed conditions are IMHO these Problems:

- Shoutbow (and other AoE-Condi-removal): In a Teamfight, you basically need 1 Shoutbow to take pure condition-builds out of the equation: they won’t ever do enough dps. Add in the occasional Staff-Ele or even D/D and condition-only builds are fudged.
IMHO, there is room for condition-only builds, mostly to counter the huge amount of Cele-Rifle’s being played that often go for 1v1’s. But it’s still really tricky, cuz good rotations would again make condi-only basically useless.

- The Amu’s/Sigils are just total crap: Look at the rabid-amu for example: Condi-DMG is nice of course and thoughness as well, but precision? Power gets double-dmg on crit and tons of insanely good procs (air/fire). Condition builds get maybe 1 trait with a ridiculously low bleed on crit and at best mediocre sigils (most prefer to use doom, geomancy etc. anyways, even when going with enough precision).

- The current Meta runs tons of Cele and Zerker: both have a high HP-pool and much more burst-dmg and/or sustain to outsustain a condition-only build, if they don’t run almost no condi-removal, like a Cele-Rifle for example.

Solution:

- Tone down stupid spammable AoE-Cleanse like wahrorn and soldier-runes.
- Give Condi-builds better on-crit procs and I mean much better: You can double the durations/stacks on it and I think it might still be too low. Yes, I don’t like random procs either, but at least they are nowhere near as bad as Air/Fire, because they don’t deal the DPS instantly and you have the possibility to cleanse them.

please no. Reduce the number of onCrit procs. The last thing Guild Wars needs is more and more powerful sigil and runes

Lupanic.6502:

please no. Reduce the number of onCrit procs. The last thing Guild Wars needs is more and more powerful sigil and runes

Condition-based on crit-procs are fundamentally different from Power-based ones:

1) With Power, the Crit itself is already amazing, cuz it deals more DMG. With condition-DMG, the only benefit you get from Precision are the procs.
2) Power- based procs can often crit themselves, which is impossible for condition-based ones.
3) Air/Fire and Sigils like that are unavoidable: you cannot dodge them or otherwhise do sth. against it: you don’t know when they’re gonna hit and they are effective immediately. With Condition-based ones, they have an effect over time and you can even cleanse it.

But I guess it’s possible, or even better, to make precision useful in another way for condition-based builds:

- Make it possible for conditions to crit per proc. (kinda hard, cuz how do you calculate the additional DPS, also with Ferocity?)
- Make it possible for conditions to crit on application for added duration. (would IMHO be a bit too random)
- Make smarter Amu’s for pure condition-based classes (for example a version of Settlers with less thoughness and more condi-dps)
- Give each classes themselves better condition-based on-crit procs (would most likely be easiest to balance and maybe the smartest choice).

I have to say that when looking at the new specializations, ANet somewhat already did the last option, I still don’t know if precision will be nearly as useful as on Power-based builds.

Lupanic.6502:

please no. Reduce the number of onCrit procs. The last thing Guild Wars needs is more and more powerful sigil and runes

a lot of classes already have small on-crit procs for bleed and theyre completely fine.

i think what Powerbottom suggests would be closer to that than air/fire sigils. nothing big, just a decent DPS increase that scales with your precision.

The problem is that this isnt enough incentive for condition builds to waste stats on precision, even with sigils of torment or earth.

- Give each classes themselves better condition-based on-crit procs (would most likely be easiest to balance and maybe the smartest choice).

i like this one the most, since it’s already a thing, just too weak. also, condition builds should require ferocity.

RashanDale.3609:

Lupanic.6502:

please no. Reduce the number of onCrit procs. The last thing Guild Wars needs is more and more powerful sigil and runes

a lot of classes already have small on-crit procs for bleed and theyre completely fine.

i think what Powerbottom suggests would be closer to that than air/fire sigils. nothing big, just a decent DPS increase that scales with your precision.

The problem is that this isnt enough incentive for condition builds to waste stats on precision, even with sigils of torment or earth.

- Give each classes themselves better condition-based on-crit procs (would most likely be easiest to balance and maybe the smartest choice).

i like this one the most, since it’s already a thing, just too weak. also, condition builds should require ferocity.

In my opinion there should be no condition removal for conditions that just cause damage. Rather, you can increase your resistance to them and skills can increase/reduce durations as well. Conditions feel like they are still made in beta.

But that’s getting off topic. The point is, there is no reason to try to stack bleeding, no reason to stack confusion or stack torment. No need for rabids, carrion or settlers.

Grab a celestial amulet and burning+poison is ALL you’ll ever need.

And yet i think they should rework conditions itself completely. Conditions should bring utility olny instead of damage.

Going up as power build with no condi removal is auto loss against condi build that can stack defensive stats easily. And yet when you stack load of condi removal (shoutbow) a condi build cant do anything.

Thats show how broken conditions are and nearly impossible to balance out. Buff em now and they become op again like in the old days of dhuumfire, dont do anything and they will stay where they are right now unless joke meta change.

Boons are defensive buffs that enhance your toon, why conditions are not a opposition of boons by debuffing rather than causing damage itself? Weakness, poison, cripple are a good example of how conditions should work in this game. Bleeds, torment and burn are examples that should be reworked as all they does are damage without any sort of utility. That would solve also pve issues with conditions as nobody will moan anymore about how low damage they does cause that part will be deleted.

skowcia.8257:

And yet i think they should rework conditions itself completely. Conditions should bring utility olny instead of damage.

Going up as power build with no condi removal is auto loss against condi build that can stack defensive stats easily. And yet when you stack load of condi removal (shoutbow) a condi build cant do anything.

Thats show how broken conditions are and nearly impossible to balance out. Buff em now and they become op again like in the old days of dhuumfire, dont do anything and they will stay where they are right now unless joke meta change.

Boons are defensive buffs that enhance your toon, why conditions are not a opposition of boons by debuffing rather than causing damage itself? Weakness, poison, cripple are a good example of how conditions should work in this game. Bleeds, torment and burn are examples that should be reworked as all they does are damage without any sort of utility. That would solve also pve issues with conditions as nobody will moan anymore about how low damage they does cause that part will be deleted.

Exactly.

• Conditions and boons are NOT good mechanics.
• Condition Removal and Condition Duration are NOT good mechanics either.

When ArenaNet realizes that is when GW2 combat can start growing. Otherwise, hold your suggestions on better gameplay mechanics as they will fall onto ignorant ears.

Sure, the problem with burning+poison can be fixed. But the balance of condition removal vs. condition applying will forever be a problem.
On one hand, you have armor ignoring damage.
On the other, you have INSTANT damage removal.

_

League of Legends used to have to dodge mechanic, because they realized it wasn’t a fair mechanic they got rid of it entirely. You always want to reward hitting your target, it’s up to your target to react. If everyone can fully remove incoming damage, that is NOT a fair reaction.

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The point is, conditions are frustrating. They are frustrating to use, they are frustrating to fight against and it’s just easier to abuse burning and poison, while dealing good power damage with Celestials than it would be to deal heavy damage over time.

skowcia.8257:

Conditions should bring utility olny instead of damage.

I fully agree.
On a list of my most hated game mechanics, damage-over-time effects like this ranks very high.

The Wizland.8435:

Okay? They already said burning and poison will stack intensity, so that’ll solve this issue.

It will?

Tip : It won’t.

GrandHaven.1052:

The Wizland.8435:

Okay? They already said burning and poison will stack intensity, so that’ll solve this issue.

It will?

Tip : It won’t.

It could.
There has already been talk about it, as well as a preview of the change in action.

But like the Double Leap Combo warrior trait (LOL, really? Warriors only have 1 skill that has a combo field) it’s just a test.

_

Honestly, it would be more beneficial to have a second condition (and boon) tier. Some skills stack in duration, while others stack it in intensity or even the second tier have different effects altogether.

That way you can add a bunch of effects from conditions, without adding new a bunch of conditions.

shoutbow killed conditions.

Covis.6037:

shoutbow killed conditions.

… Yep. Pretty much.

It wouldn’t be so bad if Shouthorn couldn’t 1v1 players but burning, poison and celestials made sure that is very possible. Ever fought a Shouthorn with no Sigil of Doom? No threat.

I think this falls into the same reason why Anet decided to axe dedicated healers as it would accomplish the same thing. Which is why condi’s in team fights are really not as effective as there is dedicated aoe condi cleanse but not dedicated healers. Therefore DPS rules.

Maybe the best idea would be to follow their own strategy and put better condi cleanse in the personal heal skills and tone down AOE condi cleanse dramatically. Obviously the Necro’s heal skill would not need a change, but it is the best example of what Im talking about.

nightblood.7910:

I think this falls into the same reason why Anet decided to axe dedicated healers as it would accomplish the same thing. Which is why condi’s in team fights are really not as effective as there is dedicated aoe condi cleanse but not dedicated healers. Therefore DPS rules.

Maybe the best idea would be to follow their own strategy and put better condi cleanse in the personal heal skills and tone down AOE condi cleanse dramatically. Obviously the Necro’s heal skill would not need a change, but it is the best example of what Im talking about.

I’m thinking just the opposite. Reduce the amount of condition cleansing, but also reduce the amount of condition spamming.

In my opinion, having conditions on auto attacks that can stack 7-8 times isn’t ideal. Splitting which attacks deal heavy power or heavy conditions.

The main problems are:

1. They tried including Hexes into Conditions too much. Avoiding situations when you had to have separate cleanse for Hexes and for Conditions. And simplifying it.

2. Both CC and damage are considered conditions. And we also have denial conditions in it, like Weakness, Chill, Blind and Poison in it. And all of them are affected by condition removal in the same way.

Design problems.

Nova Stiker.8396:

nightblood.7910:

I think this falls into the same reason why Anet decided to axe dedicated healers as it would accomplish the same thing. Which is why condi’s in team fights are really not as effective as there is dedicated aoe condi cleanse but not dedicated healers. Therefore DPS rules.

Maybe the best idea would be to follow their own strategy and put better condi cleanse in the personal heal skills and tone down AOE condi cleanse dramatically. Obviously the Necro’s heal skill would not need a change, but it is the best example of what Im talking about.

I’m thinking just the opposite. Reduce the amount of condition cleansing, but also reduce the amount of condition spamming.

In my opinion, having conditions on auto attacks that can stack 7-8 times isn’t ideal. Splitting which attacks deal heavy power or heavy conditions.

Well thats a whole other story and goes to a 1v1 scenario. I run thief and trust me, my bane is heavy condi builds 1v1.

If they bring more condi clear, like possibly the Resistance boon to heals, then you have each class having better but limited condi counters.

Now if were discussing broken aspects, I would think the condi’s that AI aspects produce should be toned down some. Like a mes, it doesnt make sense to me that a mes clone can produce the same condi the mes can, yet cant produce the same damage. Condi’s from mes staff clones should tick for like 1 and keep the same duration taking up space in the condi cap.

condi damage etc from ai should indd be drastically lowered…all damage from all ai imo tbh….6k pet crits on armor 2800+ is also crazy on the other hand turrets should only suffer from burn and chill not bleed and confusion etc, makes no sense. ps eviscerate needs range 450 and 50% damage improvement

Nova Stiker.8396:

Covis.6037:

shoutbow killed conditions.

… Yep. Pretty much.

It wouldn’t be so bad if Shouthorn couldn’t 1v1 players but burning, poison and celestials made sure that is very possible. Ever fought a Shouthorn with no Sigil of Doom? No threat.

Shoutbow has less condi clear than old bunker guards with pure voice and trooper runes. Group condi clear is nothing new.

choovanski.5462:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Covis.6037:

shoutbow killed conditions.

… Yep. Pretty much.

It wouldn’t be so bad if Shouthorn couldn’t 1v1 players but burning, poison and celestials made sure that is very possible. Ever fought a Shouthorn with no Sigil of Doom? No threat.

Shoutbow has less condi clear than old bunker guards with pure voice and trooper runes. Group condi clear is nothing new.