Guild Wars 2

I would love to reward you for this new matchmaking because I know you put a lot of hard work in it, but I can’t because of how terrible it is…
I thought this was going to create good games… First game of the season, 106-500… I guess we have very different definitions of things like “balanced” and in general about “good”…

you do realize every player has to play 10 matches before their rating starts to settle and also everyone had a soft reset which means most peoples ratings are bunched up closer together.

Sheesh, patience seems to be in short supply.

This is terrible start. So many noobs that are playing pvp for the first time.

At the beginning of each season, 10 placement matches are required to earn a skill rating and division placement.

Just survive the first 10 games.

I would love to reward you for this reading comprehension….

Evan Lesh.3295:

Everyone got a rating reset, at least wait until you place.

That’s a great idea, so basically it is up to total luck during your placement games, whether rng will be on your side and not the other team’s to determine your placement.
The problem with soul destroying games is that they are … soul destroying… a few like that in a supposedly improved system will quickly make me not caring and just tag along not even trying… because.. you know, what’s the point? I actually wanted to have some games before the new horizon stream but I just finished the 2nd game and it wasnt any better… already in a bad mood….

The threads are coming. Flame Auras up everyone!! /thread

Madman.6912:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Everyone got a rating reset, at least wait until you place.

That’s a great idea, so basically it is up to total luck during your placement games, whether rng will be on your side and not the other team’s to determine your placement.
The problem with soul destroying games is that they are … soul destroying… a few like that in a supposedly improved system will quickly make me not caring and just tag along not even trying… because.. you know, what’s the point? I actually wanted to have some games before the new horizon stream but I just finished the 2nd game and it wasnt any better… already in a bad mood….

The system is designed to place you in your proper divsion/tier.

To do that, it needs information and that is gathered from the first 10 matches you play. Worst case, even if you were to lose all 10 placement matches, you would be placed in a division/tier with others with a similar experience. From there, you can work on advancing.

You need to let the system do it’s work … the real question of whether MMR is really working will be found once you’re placed in your proper division/tier.

If you DC mid-game often, you’ll be placed in a tier where everyone DC’s I think, topkek.

So I’ll take my leave from the GW2 forums for the near forseeable future till things change. RNG always reign supreme in MMOs between GW2 and ESO I have lost all faith that the MMO genre can produce any type of decent competitive skill based PvP action. So I’ll once again take my competitive PvP drive to the dedicated PvP dev team games.

Nothing like matches like this. My first 2 matches of the season eval put on the other side of this with team mates because of the game mode design left me absolutely helpless. I actually will blame it on the way conquest mode is designed in GW2. It’s more of a social based PvP game mode then the skill based PvP game modes I’ve got accustomed to after giving up on GW2’s PvP game mode mid Season 3. People told me in the past if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all. However at least I can tell people I gave GW2’s PvP another shot.

I might risk getting infracted, or bieng accused off bieng an secret anet emplyee/fanboy. This comes purely from myself. And I’m not here to protect a-net. trust me, i’m quite critical which is an understatement.

With that out of the way. I want to say all all players that whine so quick into the season. people whining about placement matches, the same people whining about visible mmr resets, people whining and declaring a new seasonal meta. You are all terrible people.

that is all.

I guess my only question about the placement matches is this: Is our placement rating based on game stats or W/L?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Everyone got a rating reset, at least wait until you place.

This is absolutely crap..your division placement should be based on accurate rating…not pure luck, unless you can explain me again how does it work.

Won my first 3 matches against almost equally skilled opponents…the 3rd game I get absolute crap, like 2 dh killed by a condi rev…or people losing 2vs1 on close, all this happened during my last match.

This is not like “you lose against a better team”, on the contrary you get teammates that are total crap and not really an indication of my skill level.

OMG such crybabies. No system will get your placement spot on. Like everything else it takes a certain amount of time. More games you play the easier for the system to “figure out” in which tier you belong. Even then I’m sure it won’t be flawless but at least it’s a step to a right direction. Ranting even before finishing placement matches :|

Win or lose give it at least some time before you judge it.

masterfan.8375:

This is terrible start. So many noobs that are playing pvp for the first time.

Please enlighten us why is this terrible? Means pvp community is growing.

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

I want to say all all players that whine so quick into the season. people whining about placement matches, the same people whining about visible mmr resets, people whining and declaring a new seasonal meta. You are all terrible people.

Fully agreed

You know, it first has to literally make up MMR to place you somewhere to begin with. Instead of placing every single player at the same MMR (which would lead to even more chaotic and unbalanced matches), you are given a series of 10 placement matches to place you roughly where you belong. (so you don’t go through hell climbing out of divisions much lower or much higher than you should be in)
If the system makes bad matches after roughly 30 matches played, yea, then you can start whining.

In all honesty, it’s the exact same issue Overwatch has with the exception that it doesn’t average your previous finished seasons from pass leagues.

The 10 placement mayches really is more about luck than anything else. The Devs have even said it takes numerous games to accurate place a players skill level. Not just 10.

I’ve only played one match so far, but it was a pretty close game. My team was doing pretty bad at first and we were falling behind, so I just had to start rotating everywhere to pick up the slack. I love how it shows who got what top player achieve on the scoreboard at the end, because next to my name at the end of the match was every single top player achieve possible. I am guessing I was matched with a bunch of low skill players, and that this will get much harder as I progress. I am really looking forward to this season.

Shaogin.2679:

I’ve only played one match so far, but it was a pretty close game. My team was doing pretty bad at first and we were falling behind, so I just had to start rotating everywhere to pick up the slack. I love how it shows who got what top player achieve on the scoreboard at the end, because next to my name at the end of the match was every single top player achieve possible. I am guessing I was matched with a bunch of low skill players, and that this will get much harder as I progress. I am really looking forward to this season.

I too. I’m impressed with the Defense stat they have, “in a fight near the point”.

I hope they evolve the statistics to make them more intricate. Who knows, maybe there really will be some form of in-game skill measurement some day.

Shaogin.2679:

I’ve only played one match so far, but it was a pretty close game. My team was doing pretty bad at first and we were falling behind, so I just had to start rotating everywhere to pick up the slack. I love how it shows who got what top player achieve on the scoreboard at the end, because next to my name at the end of the match was every single top player achieve possible. I am guessing I was matched with a bunch of low skill players, and that this will get much harder as I progress. I am really looking forward to this season.

That’s how you know you carried.

Evan Lesh.3295:

R O C.6574:

I guess my only question about the placement matches is this: Is our placement rating based on game stats or W/L?

If by game stats you meant he damage, healing, defense, etc, then no, those don’t factor into rating adjustments.

So it’s purely W/L? :|
Pity to all the scores getting killed by bad teammates.

I’m actually was surprised how good first 5 games were. From 10 games only 2 were because of bad players on my team, but on the other hand I won 2 times because enemy team was bad. And in the end I’ve been assigned to a gold league, wich is great for I’m an average pvp player. And now when there’s a leaderboard I have a reason to play more and improve my rating.

I honestly think this is a better system in the long run. But it’s just cancerous right now.

Madman.6912:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Everyone got a rating reset, at least wait until you place.

That’s a great idea, so basically it is up to total luck during your placement games, whether rng will be on your side and not the other team’s to determine your placement.
The problem with soul destroying games is that they are … soul destroying… a few like that in a supposedly improved system will quickly make me not caring and just tag along not even trying… because.. you know, what’s the point? I actually wanted to have some games before the new horizon stream but I just finished the 2nd game and it wasnt any better… already in a bad mood….

Found the guy who has never played a competitive PvP game before.

10 matches to set your rating is literally the STANDARD, I cant think of a real competitive game where it doesnt have you play ten matches at the start to set your initial rating.

I think responses like this basically sum up why devs don’t listen to forums.

With all the complaints in this thread about setting your MMR, it really drives home the point of how casual the pvp crowd in this game is, would love to see the DOTA2 or LoL crowd react to threads like this.

Evan Lesh.3295:

R O C.6574:

I guess my only question about the placement matches is this: Is our placement rating based on game stats or W/L?

If by game stats you meant he damage, healing, defense, etc, then no, those don’t factor into rating adjustments.

If those stats don’t factor, then how come the guy (jaberse.8726) that I duo’ed all ten placement matches with ended up with a different rating?

Just had to log out of this. The first 10 games were fun and I went 7/3. Then once the rating hit it was defeat, defeat, win, defeat, defeat. Just like previous seasons, there’s this “screw you wall” where the game just starts putting you into impossible matches. Absolutely no fun to have such poor quality match’s either.

Should have tanked the first 10 games and probably would have had a much more fun season. Now I’m locked into this for months.

DeWolfe.2174:

Just had to log out of this. The first 10 games were fun and I went 7/3. Then once the rating hit it was defeat, defeat, win, defeat, defeat. Just like previous seasons, there’s this “screw you wall” where the game just starts putting you into impossible matches. Absolutely no fun to have such poor quality match’s either.

Should have tanked the first 10 games and probably would have had a much more fun season. Now I’m locked into this for months.

I’m having a similar experience. The problem with W/L “skill meter” is that even IF you repeatedly get top stats on your team, and even if you HIGHLY contribute on a match by match basis, you only get up-ranked if the other 3-4 RNG’d members of your team are also good at sPVP. Otherwise you just head toward the 50/50% long term W/L average faster while watching teammates run to a mid with 4 enemy players on it instead of taking the sides. x.o

Its not really your skill that means anything, its your RNG team’s total skill/composition versus the other teams same things.

If it was actually based off your contribution/percentage of team stats, which we know is measured because its shown directly to us every match as a percentage, then it’d be skill based.

So far it’s making me extremely salty. In my first game I was stuck on a loading screen. In the last 2 of my 10 placement matches, the same exact dude afk’d when I was at 4-4. This put me down at 4-6 but somehow placed me lower than my friend who placed above me with the same score. I mean what gives you the actual rating if not the raw stats you talked about before? Just wins? Would you say it’s fair on solo queue players who depend on the duo queue players to actually preform, causing our rating to fall at the same rate?

Ok, riddle me this:

How is it that I have the same win-loss ratio as one of my friends and an even better one than another friend, yet my MMR is significantly lower? Also, to note, I have been receiving at least 2 top stats categories every single match this season.

http://i.imgur.com/Hzet7fO.png

So wtf?

Evan Lesh.3295:

DeWolfe.2174:

Just had to log out of this. The first 10 games were fun and I went 7/3. Then once the rating hit it was defeat, defeat, win, defeat, defeat. Just like previous seasons, there’s this “screw you wall” where the game just starts putting you into impossible matches. Absolutely no fun to have such poor quality match’s either.

Should have tanked the first 10 games and probably would have had a much more fun season. Now I’m locked into this for months.

The longer the season runs, the better matches will gets. It hasn’t even been 12 hours yet. There are a lot of people that will be going through placement matches for a while, and they don’t have a fully accurate rating yet. This ‘wall’ could just be players getting home from work and school and playing PvP for the first time today.

Please, don’t try to not say (oh ho!) that your match making don’t do stupid things like:

1- putting people of different skills level in the same team.
2- putting people of differents skills level in the other team.
3- Plug and Pray that the matches will get good.

Actually, from experiences, most matches have 1 guy that is considered the best that need to carry 2 guyz that can’t swing a sword properly.

People will be happy when TEAM A and TEAM B will have people that have similar skill level all together.

And unfortunately, this is not the case at all even in the “new placement” match-making, we could still get paired with people that don’t know what rotations is versus PVP god players (simply player that know rotations and know how to pilot a build in 1v1 without dying).

Nothing of this related to the first match of a guy coming back from school or work.

It’s much more about the fact, that you cannot put people of similar skills together versus another team of the same level. And nobodies know why, except you.

Enokitake.1742:

its your RNG team’s total skill/composition versus the other teams same things.

I bet Even could do a Ctrl+F on the match making code and not find the random number generator. That’s not how teams are formed. They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr. Let me repeat that:

10 closest to each other.

Not random. Only in the sense that it only takes into account other people who are queuing at the same time as you, so sure there could be others closer to make a more even match.

If you played chess and ended with 8 pieces and the other 4 but you got checkmated, guess what you still lost. And real chess players use the same exact glicko system, based off wins and losses.

Honest John.4673:

Enokitake.1742:

its your RNG team’s total skill/composition versus the other teams same things.

I bet Even could do a Ctrl+F on the match making code and not find the random number generator. That’s not how teams are formed. They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr. Let me repeat that:

10 closest to each other.

Not random. Only in the sense that it only takes into account other people who are queuing at the same time as you, so sure there could be others closer to make a more even match.

If you played chess and ended with 8 pieces and the other 4 but you got checkmated, guess what you still lost. And real chess players use the same exact glicko system, based off wins and losses.

1) You’re assuming the original MMR determination was accurate at placing them to begin with. Since its W/L based its not. Its based on who else you got on your team and against your team during your initial MMR determination. Hence the problem.
2) Chess is a SOLO sport based only on YOUR skill. 5v5 pvp is NOT. Terrible analogy mate.

Honest John.4673:

They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr.

That is the problem. Why aren’t raw statistics from in game performance not a part of someones mmr? In a team game, you could have 2-3 people who were carried individually by others through winning games.. and then end up with these 3 people together who only feed..

Evan Lesh.3295:

DeWolfe.2174:

Just had to log out of this. The first 10 games were fun and I went 7/3. Then once the rating hit it was defeat, defeat, win, defeat, defeat. Just like previous seasons, there’s this “screw you wall” where the game just starts putting you into impossible matches. Absolutely no fun to have such poor quality match’s either.

Should have tanked the first 10 games and probably would have had a much more fun season. Now I’m locked into this for months.

The longer the season runs, the better matches will gets. It hasn’t even been 12 hours yet. There are a lot of people that will be going through placement matches for a while, and they don’t have a fully accurate rating yet. This ‘wall’ could just be players getting home from work and school and playing PvP for the first time today.

I’ll try but, we’ve always had a “Log on Lose Streak” in GW2. It’s always appeared to be beyond our control and the more you engage a lose streak, the deeper you end up digging kitten. Some of us used to take a week off from PvP if it was severe enough. Going from 7-3 to 1-4, exactly when the ratings kicked in, tells me it’s more the game than my performance.

editing to add, oy! that kitten filter. It was digging a “hole”.

editing again to add, I went a gave another match a try, a 4-5. FFS! now it’s 1-5!

Honest John.4673:

Enokitake.1742:

its your RNG team’s total skill/composition versus the other teams same things.

I bet Even could do a Ctrl+F on the match making code and not find the random number generator. That’s not how teams are formed. They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr. Let me repeat that:

10 closest to each other.

Not random. Only in the sense that it only takes into account other people who are queuing at the same time as you, so sure there could be others closer to make a more even match.

If you played chess and ended with 8 pieces and the other 4 but you got checkmated, guess what you still lost. And real chess players use the same exact glicko system, based off wins and losses.

“10 closest to each other.”

This is what we all wishes for 4 years.

This is not what we have right now in Ranked or Unranked Q.

What we have right now is a system that want you to win or lose a match. It will pair you with people it is sure you will lose with when it decide you lose that match. It will pair you with people it is sure you will win with when it decide you win that match. (Even Evan said it is so because now, its MMR based so they do that to make sure you have the right MMR)

And this is borked because, some people are under evaluated because they play with friends with bad MMR, some people are over evaluated because they only play with recognized top players and many got carried by TS/Discord captain rotations calls.

But, it would be way better if we could get those 10 closest skills level together for a match even if the rating are over/under evaluated. The new season is still new, but with the matches I got, I know it’s still the same old junk that many people are crying about since 4 years. (bad/wasted players or noob or guy that is okay, but didn’t played the thousands of game need to understand the game at veteran skill level paired with Veteran)

And unfortunately, we will get that QQ again and again because the MM is still flaw.

Jourdelune.7456:

Even Evan said it is so

That’s not what I got from what I’ve seen him write. Would anyone be able to find the quote?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Everyone got a rating reset, at least wait until you place.

“Soft reset”

Care to explain this:

How to test:
Group A: 2 Legends (assume exactly even).
Group B: 2 Legends (assume exactly even).

Group A starts 0-3, ends 7-3.
Group B starts 7-0, ends 7-3.

Group A: ~1500+
Group B: ~1750+

This is not the only game that does this. 10 placements are excessive.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Initial-3-Games-decide-where-you-place/first#post6430079

Also, what are the gains when on a win streak? Nevermind, seems to be none. The grind continues Season 5.

So far, I’m taking hammering after hammering. The system experience for me is even worse than last season.

Well, played about 20 games so far, won 11, currently sitting in Gold League. Matchmaking has still been kinda weird, but I"m just gonna assume it is due to the season just starting and everyone’s mmr’s not settling in yet. I’ve had some good matches, but I’ve had some pretty bad blowouts too. Hoping this improves.

On a side note, really still wish there was a team queue. Occasionally getting matches where mmr just can’t account for the human factor. I had one match where the score was like 20-500. My team literally did not even try to win. I lost 30 points for that, simply because I got put with a team that didn’t even want to try. This is the kind of thing I wouldn’t have to worry about in a team queue.

Let the solo/duo queue remain the same, but please in the future add a separate 5v5 only team queue and actually put some work into it to provide players the incentive to play it. If you just throw up a solo queue and team queue with the exact same rewards, people are going to go solo because queues are faster and they don’t have to put in the effort to get a team together or fight more organized opponents. Just like raids vs fractals, you really think just as many people would be doing raids right now if it gave the same rewards as fractals? Hell no. You have to provide incentive to play Team Queue if you ever want it to work.

Ali.7041:

Honest John.4673:

They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr.

That is the problem. Why aren’t raw statistics from in game performance not a part of someones mmr? In a team game, you could have 2-3 people who were carried individually by others through winning games.. and then end up with these 3 people together who only feed..

THANK. YOU. Someone gets it.

The best scores should get the most points or lose the least points, and the worst scores should win the least points and lose the most points. And it should be by a wide and pre-stated margin.

Then its actually more of a “skill rating”.

Does having a losing match with a DCed player count as harshly against you as if you had no DCed ally?

Literally the worst season lol.

Enokitake.1742:

Ali.7041:

Honest John.4673:

They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr.

That is the problem. Why aren’t raw statistics from in game performance not a part of someones mmr? In a team game, you could have 2-3 people who were carried individually by others through winning games.. and then end up with these 3 people together who only feed..

THANK. YOU. Someone gets it.

The best scores should get the most points or lose the least points, and the worst scores should win the least points and lose the most points. And it should be by a wide and pre-stated margin.

Then its actually more of a “skill rating”.

Your goal is well-intentioned but incredibly hard to implement without ending up with an exploitable mess. You ultimately want individual contribution to matter more in determining how someone’s rating adjusts. Great on paper, but how to properly weigh all the stat variables against what your profession should be doing in a match? Do we even agree what the relevant stats are, what the goal of each class is and how to weigh them? Probably not. You also need to consider how weighing stats incentivizes people’s behavior in-game.

For better or for worse, GW2 is never getting a proprietary skill rating system. Those are too difficult, time-consuming and expensive to implement, not to mention we are talking about fiddling with the systems of a live game. This discussion would have been different in 2010 when GW2 was still in development, but that boat has long since sailed. Mark Glickman is the first guy to tell you that Glicko / Glicko2 are far from ideal in a 5v5 class-based team game where the players are shuffled between rounds. Take into account AFK/griefers/drunk players, and there is a huge amount of uncertainty in the system. Think of Glicko2 as a system trying to juggle a bunch of unknowns and struggling to zone in on certainty. It’s going to take hundreds of games to quantify any individual player’s skill by looking at win-loss only.

My best advice to everyone is to play 500 games first, then analyze the results. Complain afterwards if needed.

Can we please get a /gg voting function for spvp? Having to wait for hopeless matches and 4v5s to go to the bitter end makes the game mode less fun without adding any benefit. If 3 or 4 out of the 5 agree to concede there is no point dragging it out. Thanks.

LUST.7241:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Everyone got a rating reset, at least wait until you place.

“Soft reset”

Care to explain this:

How to test:
Group A: 2 Legends (assume exactly even).
Group B: 2 Legends (assume exactly even).

Group A starts 0-3, ends 7-3.
Group B starts 7-0, ends 7-3.

Group A: ~1500+
Group B: ~1750+

This is not the only game that does this. 10 placements are excessive.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Initial-3-Games-decide-where-you-place/first#post6430079

Also, what are the gains when on a win streak? Nevermind, seems to be none. The grind continues Season 5.

• No extra skill points for win streaks.
• Initial 3 games decide placements.
• Top Stats apparently don’t matter.
• Versing the same people already (faster queues but still…out of everyone close currently in the Top 250…I’m versing/playing against the same few people).
• “Soft Reset” doesn’t seem true.
• Any sort of reset doesn’t seem true.
• Being Legendary prior seasons don’t matter.
• 9-1 on one account, without PvP history lands you higher than going 9-1 on an account with history.
• If you farmed Stronghold last year for Rank, you probably will place high.

The matchmaking is simply awful.

For example, I had to face a team where 3 DH and 2 reapers were stacked against us, while we had revenant and DD.

Now it should be obvious, the 3 DH on the enemy team can sustain each other very effectively, while the 2 reapers can put out more condi pressure than our team can cleanse.

And this was a problem with all my matches yesterday.

Why do you insist on stacking sustain + dps + condi on one team, while the other team (my team) gets a comp that can’t realistically put up a good fight? It’s not fair, and it simply NOT FUN, which means your matchmaking algorithm fails at what it’s supposed to do, both from an eSport and a video game perspective.

Could you please try to create mirror comps, so that the game is fair to both teams? and then maybe it’ll become fun to play, as well.

Aereniel.7356:

Enokitake.1742:

Ali.7041:

Honest John.4673:

They’re literally the closest 10 players to each other in terms of mmr.

That is the problem. Why aren’t raw statistics from in game performance not a part of someones mmr? In a team game, you could have 2-3 people who were carried individually by others through winning games.. and then end up with these 3 people together who only feed..

THANK. YOU. Someone gets it.

The best scores should get the most points or lose the least points, and the worst scores should win the least points and lose the most points. And it should be by a wide and pre-stated margin.

Then its actually more of a “skill rating”.

Your goal is well-intentioned but incredibly hard to implement without ending up with an exploitable mess. You ultimately want individual contribution to matter more in determining how someone’s rating adjusts. Great on paper, but how to properly weigh all the stat variables against what your profession should be doing in a match? Do we even agree what the relevant stats are, what the goal of each class is and how to weigh them? Probably not. You also need to consider how weighing stats incentivizes people’s behavior in-game.

For better or for worse, GW2 is never getting a proprietary skill rating system. Those are too difficult, time-consuming and expensive to implement, not to mention we are talking about fiddling with the systems of a live game. This discussion would have been different in 2010 when GW2 was still in development, but that boat has long since sailed. Mark Glickman is the first guy to tell you that Glicko / Glicko2 are far from ideal in a 5v5 class-based team game where the players are shuffled between rounds. Take into account AFK/griefers/drunk players, and there is a huge amount of uncertainty in the system. Think of Glicko2 as a system trying to juggle a bunch of unknowns and struggling to zone in on certainty. It’s going to take hundreds of games to quantify any individual player’s skill by looking at win-loss only.

My best advice to everyone is to play 500 games first, then analyze the results. Complain afterwards if needed.

We don’t need 500 games to see how the system once again is flawed/rigged .

I sit at 1400+ rating and the following match I get teammates who are not even 600 rating, it’s the same system like previous seasons …a luck based system, you either get decent players and climb the leaderboard..or you’re unlucky and get waste of space teammates who create a blowout match.

This is not a skill based system for the 5th time, you still get players in your team who are far far far below you actual skill level, like I have 8k hours in this game with over 12k matches…and I get these guys who barely have 600 hours and with not enough rating to be even visible on the leaderboard past 250.

And once again you have whiteknights defending a flawed system because they enjoy doing so.

Other than ending up the game with 300k+ healing done to teammates or 400k dmg+ done to enemies, ressing people under heavy fire, rushing to help every numbskull that can’t win an easy 1vs1, try to hold as many people as possible , capping or defending…..I can’t do kitten more than that as I’m not god and I can’t win the whole game by myself.

I can’t even blame the devs anymore at this point, pvp is definitely not for everyone like raids is not for every pver out there

Has anybody mentioned the worst class matchmaking I’ve ever seen in a MMO?

I mean I have been in matches that have 2, 3, or more heavies on one side and none on the other most of the time. I will switch out to something else, but honestly, what is the kitten point of it if nobody else does?