Guild Wars 2

We all know how conquest can feel like a loss well before the game has actually ended which is almost certainly a product of the point system being a sum of small points over a long time. As a result, envisioning comebacks while in a match is difficult / daunting / requires a ton of patience (which conflicts with the pace of combat).

In a moba there’s a few factors which are taken into account when trying to decide which team is currently winning: map control / buildings destroyed and gold/key items on key characters. Those two facets of a moba aren’t boiled down into one score which dictates the outcome of the game (because they’re not directly linked to the win condition) so there’s some room for arguing and deciding where the advantage lies.

In gw2 there’s one metric by which you can compare the performance of two teams who are facing each other: the score. The only time when the score and winning the game don’t go hand in hand is if you’re playing on foefire and one team did a 5 man gank on the lord while the other team 3capped them. Unfortunately the team with the upper hand in this case is so obviously the 3capping team that there isn’t really much to be said.

Do we care? Are there solutions? Am I meowing out of my kittenbits? Team?

Solution: Make secondary Objectives give more Points….

PowerBottom.5796:

Solution: Make secondary Objectives give more Points….

http://tumblr-gifs.com/pics/51.gif

Funny though how they said they were going to do that like 2 months ago…not happened.

guys
guys listen
guys
i have an ide
guys
what if we removed the nodes from foefire

ensoriki.5789:

PowerBottom.5796:

Solution: Make secondary Objectives give more Points….

http://tumblr-gifs.com/pics/51.gif

Funny though how they said they were going to do that like 2 months ago…not happened.

Hence the thread (since the obvious solution has been implicitly dismissed by anet)

Forest NPC used to give 50 points when first released IIRC. They toned it down to 25.

They can increase it again. And then do the same to the Guild Lord. But I think the reason why they reduced the points for NPC kills in Forest was to not rely too much on the secondary objectives. However, with the evolution of the meta and now having bunkers rule, I think they need to bring it back up to allow for some shifting and what-not.

They should do something like the closer your team gets to 500 points, the more points your team member’s deaths are worth for the opposing team. For instance, if team A stands at 400 pts while team B is down at 250 pts, then team B should get like 15-20 pts for each team A member they kill whereas team A would still get only 5 pts per kill. Yet, if team B manages to comeback and the score now reads team A 480 pts and team B 405 pts, then both teams can get 15-20 pts for each opposing member they kill.

This way a team winning by a large margin has to stay alert because both secondary objectives and the above point idea can allow for sharp turnarounds. This would not work in hotjoin but can provide better tpvp.

Vence.6974:

They should do something like the closer your team gets to 500 points, the more points your team member’s deaths are worth for the opposing team. For instance, if team A stands at 400 pts while team B is down at 250 pts, then team B should get like 15-20 pts for each team A member they kill whereas team A would still get only 5 pts per kill. Yet, if team B manages to comeback and the score now reads team A 480 pts and team B 405 pts, then both teams can get 15-20 pts for each opposing member they kill.

This way a team winning by a large margin has to stay alert because both secondary objectives and the above point idea can allow for sharp turnarounds. This would not work in hotjoin but can provide better tpvp.

I don’t think you should punish the better Team, thats not how a balanced game is supposed to work. Besides, as stated before, there is a very simple way to make games more interesting, give Teams a wider arrey of possible Strategies and make more Comebacks possible:

Make secondary Objectives more important!

It’s not only about scaling Point-Gain on most Maps, but maybe also make it a bigger investment for the Team (Point-Gain should also be scaled in that regards, but generally higher than now). Here’s an example:

On Forest, the Creeps could be twice as strong, but they shouldn’t only give twice the Points, but maybe four times the Points. This way, one Thief couldn’t just solo sth. within a few seconds, but it had to be an actual choice for the team and a constant tension between Node-capping and secondary Objectives.

On Foefire, killing the Guild Lord could maybe even give an instant-win, but they could add in more NPC’s (for example on the Top of the Walls near the Gates), Gates could have more HP and maybe there could even be a repair-kit that would give the Gate back some health.

In General, having multiple (equally) important Objectives in a Game has several Advantages (of course there can also be too many, but even with much more important secondary Objectives, GW2 wouldn’t run that risk). Well, here are the Advantages:

1) The Game gets more Balanced in Terms of Builds used and Team-compositions: Take the Problem with current Builds of the Ele that are very Tanky: They’d be good at holding Nodes, but when you fight against a Team using them, you could always focus on the Secondary Objective (because those Ele’s probably won’t kill anything really fast and would probably only be very strong on Relic-Runs or sth).
2) It gives Teams more Options how to play a Game, what Team-Comp to run etc.
3) Comebacks could be a possibility.
4) The Metagame would probably become more diverse and Interesting.
5) The Game would get more Skill-intensive in terms of Strategy.

Look at GvG in GW1, which was IMHO one of THE BEST Team-oriented Game-modes I’ve ever encountered. You had to worry about running the Flag, holding the Middle, protecting your base, Killing the opposing Players and a few Gimmicks depending on the Map (like a Treb or Pathways that could be opened in a certain Manner). Each of those Aspects was important and could get you the win and you had to decide on what to focus, how to play against certain Team-comps etc.

That’s the reason why for me, Temple is atm the best map, due to the buffs can change the whole game. Also it’s not so focused on the nodes.

Temple, spirit watch, khylo…are in a lot of ways the strongest maps. As the secondary objective is always present.

Temple – buffs respawn rapidly, they pull people in every direction. Big buff to help with mid/late game comeback.

Spirit Watch – once the orb is capped, it respawns…its always present and hard to ignore.

Kyhlo – treb is extremely powerful and the moment its destroyed a repair pack appears. The secondary objective always opens up oppurtunities.

Rest of the maps the secondary objective is either
not always present – Nifihel
ignoreable/one time event – Foefire
“capricorn” enough said.

idea for new game mode I hope we can do with custom arenas:
spiritwatch, turn nodes off, each orb cap worth 100 pts. (aka ctf)
jesus that sounds awesome.
then we would actually see real teamplay.
edit: turn off scores for kills, etc as well?

milo.6942:

idea for new game mode I hope we can do with custom arenas:
spiritwatch, turn nodes off, each orb cap worth 100 pts. (aka ctf)
jesus that sounds awesome.
then we would actually see real teamplay.
edit: turn off scores for kills, etc as well?

Actually not. that would just force you into one thing you have to concentrate the whole game. You need several objectives to make the match dynamic and not only focused on one thing.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

milo.6942:

idea for new game mode I hope we can do with custom arenas:
spiritwatch, turn nodes off, each orb cap worth 100 pts. (aka ctf)
jesus that sounds awesome.
then we would actually see real teamplay.
edit: turn off scores for kills, etc as well?

Actually not. that would just force you into one thing you have to concentrate the whole game. You need several objectives to make the match dynamic and not only focused on one thing.

what a weird comment
is fighting other players not dynamic enough for you?

A 5v5 is not more than zerging in hotjoin, just organized and with VOIP. So no need for any tactics beside who you target first (the guy with the orb). Mabye you can explain a bit more detailed what you expect from this game-mode, so I can get a view of how you imagine as it would be?

milo.6942:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

milo.6942:

idea for new game mode I hope we can do with custom arenas:
spiritwatch, turn nodes off, each orb cap worth 100 pts. (aka ctf)
jesus that sounds awesome.
then we would actually see real teamplay.
edit: turn off scores for kills, etc as well?

Actually not. that would just force you into one thing you have to concentrate the whole game. You need several objectives to make the match dynamic and not only focused on one thing.

what a weird comment
is fighting other players not dynamic enough for you?

aren’t you fighting other players in conquest too?

im not talking about hotjoins, i’m talking about organized teams. 1 guy carries the orb, rest of his team works to keep the other team cced, and removed conditions (chill, immob, cripple) from their orb carrier. hammer warriors suddenly useful. rifle engineers suddenly useful. guardians can spec more offensively. etc. game becomes less about roam vs bunker, and more about cc, defending your team, supporting your carrier, moving as a single unit, coordinating spikes to get rid of enemies that are causing problems, etc.

milo.6942:

im not talking about hotjoins, i’m talking about organized teams. 1 guy carries the orb, rest of his team works to keep the other team cced, and removed conditions (chill, immob, cripple) from their orb carrier. hammer warriors suddenly useful. rifle engineers suddenly useful. guardians can spec more offensively. etc. game becomes less about roam vs bunker, and more about cc, defending your team, supporting your carrier, moving as a single unit, coordinating spikes to get rid of enemies that are causing problems, etc.

it becomes a burstfest. nothing more.

yea it could be a clusterkitten, but i see many possible counters that are not seeing play atm because of the bunker v roaming burst gameplay. off the top of my head: warrior hammer F1 — save it for when enemy tries to spike your carrier. stuff like that. you know, teamplay.

milo.6942:

yea it could be a clusterkitten, but i see many possible counters that are not seeing play atm because of the bunker v roaming burst gameplay. off the top of my head: warrior hammer F1 — save it for when enemy tries to spike your carrier. stuff like that. you know, teamplay.

you can’t expect to cc anybody midburst. people will just run stability.
the spikedmg that can be applied by a full 5 man party is way to high to support any 5v5 fights. that’s why we have conquest in the first place.
i don’t really mind anet adding a deathmatch mode or a ctf mode later on for hotjoin and custom arena only. but it really shouldn’t be a priority right now and it should never be added to actual tournamentrotations.
tournamentrotations need to be strictly one game mode and one game mode only.

milo.6942:

im not talking about hotjoins, i’m talking about organized teams. 1 guy carries the orb, rest of his team works to keep the other team cced, and removed conditions (chill, immob, cripple) from their orb carrier. hammer warriors suddenly useful. rifle engineers suddenly useful. guardians can spec more offensively. etc. game becomes less about roam vs bunker, and more about cc, defending your team, supporting your carrier, moving as a single unit, coordinating spikes to get rid of enemies that are causing problems, etc.

Thanks for pointing this out. It sounds pretty cool. The problem with things like that is without testing or seeing it in real-play you never know how it will be in the end. So saying we see hammer-wars and rifle engineers is just a wish you have.
What if i’d say we play 4 bunker-guard and 1 bunker-ele (orb-carrier). The guards will put up blocks like shelter and mace 3 (they trigger for allies near them) and the ele just cap the orb.
I don’t wanna blame or bash you here. What I wanna point out is just if you bring up a suggestion, it should be considered from any point of view.

besaah.2516:

you can’t expect to cc anybody midburst. people will just run stability.

lol i’m gonna take a wild guess you’ve never played monk in gw1

besaah.2516:

but it really shouldn’t be a priority right now and it should never be added to actual tournamentrotations.
tournamentrotations need to be strictly one game mode and one game mode only.

my entire argument was about custom arenas

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

What if i’d say we play 4 bunker-guard and 1 bunker-ele (orb-carrier). The guards will put up blocks like shelter and mace 3 (they trigger for allies near them) and the ele just cap the orb.
I don’t wanna blame or bash you here. What I wanna point out is just if you bring up a suggestion, it should be considered from any point of view.

yea i thought of that, and it would be a big problem. possible solution may be to split up team and get in front of them, knock them off the ledges, split the team in 2 and attempt to spike the ele when it’s alone. but you’re right it’s all just wishful thinking.

milo.6942:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

What if i’d say we play 4 bunker-guard and 1 bunker-ele (orb-carrier). The guards will put up blocks like shelter and mace 3 (they trigger for allies near them) and the ele just cap the orb.
I don’t wanna blame or bash you here. What I wanna point out is just if you bring up a suggestion, it should be considered from any point of view.

yea i thought of that, and it would be a big problem. possible solution may be to split up team and get in front of them, knock them off the ledges, split the team in 2 and attempt to spike the ele when it’s alone. but you’re right it’s all just wishful thinking.

Yep, it’s harder to develop features and new game modes than the most ppl think. Btw: 4 guards = 4 x stand your ground = 4×6 sec stability = 24 sec. Recast on SyG = 24 sec (if traited). So it’s even a bigger mess if you start to specify it

milo.6942:

besaah.2516:

you can’t expect to cc anybody midburst. people will just run stability.

lol i’m gonna take a wild guess you’ve never played monk in gw1

i’ve been playing prot-monk ever since i got into gvg.

gw1 had a lot more mechanics when it comes to damage mitigation.
a well timed SoD could stop a full 5 player spike.
gw2’s damage mitigation won’t save you when 5 semi-capable players want to see you dead.

milo.6942:

besaah.2516:

but it really shouldn’t be a priority right now and it should never be added to actual tournamentrotations.
tournamentrotations need to be strictly one game mode and one game mode only.

my entire argument was about custom arenas

well.. i agree that some casual game modes wouldn’t hurt as long as they don’t become a priority.

well.. i agree that some casual game modes wouldn’t hurt as long as they don’t become a priority.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

milo.6942:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

What if i’d say we play 4 bunker-guard and 1 bunker-ele (orb-carrier). The guards will put up blocks like shelter and mace 3 (they trigger for allies near them) and the ele just cap the orb.
I don’t wanna blame or bash you here. What I wanna point out is just if you bring up a suggestion, it should be considered from any point of view.

yea i thought of that, and it would be a big problem. possible solution may be to split up team and get in front of them, knock them off the ledges, split the team in 2 and attempt to spike the ele when it’s alone. but you’re right it’s all just wishful thinking.

Yep, it’s harder to develop features and new game modes than the most ppl think. Btw: 4 guards = 4 x stand your ground = 4×6 sec stability = 24 sec. Recast on SyG = 24 sec (if traited). So it’s even a bigger mess if you start to specify it

punish the guard-ball with aoe and boon-hate (they said they gonna have more of this right?). i’d say compositions that are balanced and prepared for gimmicks would still have the upper hand, just from my personal experience. your point still stands however, i’m just spitballing

you can surely run 5 necros to counter that build, but this would also result in a counter. Hope you get what i mean.