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Posted by: Vague Memory.2817

Vague Memory.2817

Matches are just horrible at the moment. Too many untested elites and skills in the game. Absolutely no intelligence, effort or pretence has gone into balance in the game. The devs have poured ample amounts of evades, damage, stacking, evade speed, superspeed, leaps, quickness into PvP with no regard to how it plays out. PvP just feels in general broken to me. It beggars believe they could release such a shoddy PvP product and think it is acceptable or even fun.

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Posted by: Morwath.9817

Morwath.9817

Its just like beta or alpha… thats why I’ve asked like half year ago (or more?) about test server where community could test incoming PvP changes and devs could gather data for better quality of released content on live servers…

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Posted by: Talyn Sneider.1825

Talyn Sneider.1825

Partially agree…for now I’m just doing hot joins so I can get dailies and then head back to pve. Awaiting patiently for more balance patches.

I wouldn’t say there was no work or effort…a lot of work was done, and mostly elite specs need marginal nerfs/buffs to begin with (as these might not be enough).

DH:

->DH traps need increased cast time (1 second).

Scrapper:

->Hammer 3 needs to be reduced to 1 impact, reduce evade to 1/2 second

Revenant:

-> Reduce evade on unrelenting assault to 1/2 second

Warriors:

-> Slow adrenaline degeneration out of combat
-> Increase stances duration by two seconds
-> Evade on GS rush 3/4 second-

Tempest Elementalists:

->Make Harmonious conduit baseline
->Harmonious Conduit replacement trait: pulse blindness on overload (1 second interval)

Thief:

->Shadow refuge: Add protection on activation and pulse blindness on shadow refuge (1 second pulse) increase healing to 3000.
->Pistol skill headshot: add knockdown duration 1 second

Chronomancer:

->Increase cast time of Tides of time to 3/4
->Gravity well reduce knockdown duration to 1/2 second

This should be a nice starting point

Casual pvp’er – Can only play 2-3 hours a day

https://www.gw2pvp.de/profile/ab4bd8fa4c3f250ac9533c479b0b862b/

(edited by Talyn Sneider.1825)

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

You only give very large changes a week and a half or so to settle before deciding you’re playing perfectly, and it must be the game’s fault?

You’re doing yourself a disservice.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Vague Memory.2817

Vague Memory.2817

You only give very large changes a week and a half or so to settle before deciding you’re playing perfectly, and it must be the game’s fault?

You’re doing yourself a disservice.

I play and have played a lot of PvP, when 21K health feels like you are made of paper, or you can only land 3 hits in a 1v1 because of the obscene amount of mobility, evades and invulns I don’t think you have to wait until things settle, because that is what is happening now.

I’ve played several games where a daredevil was literally just using rolls and the stomp/evade skill, and was doing really well. There just doesn’t seem to be any common sense or testing of this stuff at all. Having rev, daredevil, or engi immortal builds is obviously not good for PvP, nor is massive boon or condition stacking. I regularly see might or vulnerability stacked up to 20. I’m genuinely baffled what game play design or philosophy (if any) the devs are using. It’s like a bunch of 8 year olds got together and said I know this would be cool to have and gave no thought to tell signs or counterplay.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

You only give very large changes a week and a half or so to settle before deciding you’re playing perfectly, and it must be the game’s fault?

You’re doing yourself a disservice.

I play and have played a lot of PvP, when 21K health feels like you are made of paper, or you can only land 3 hits in a 1v1 because of the obscene amount of mobility, evades and invulns I don’t think you have to wait until things settle, because that is what is happening now.

I’ve played several games where a daredevil was literally just using rolls and the stomp/evade skill, and was doing really well. There just doesn’t seem to be any common sense or testing of this stuff at all. Having rev, daredevil, or engi immortal builds is obviously not good for PvP, nor is massive boon or condition stacking. I regularly see might or vulnerability stacked up to 20. I’m genuinely baffled what game play design or philosophy (if any) the devs are using. It’s like a bunch of 8 year olds got together and said I know this would be cool to have and gave no thought to tell signs or counterplay.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that boon, condition, and mitigation spam are a little silly. Conditions seem to just squirt out of nowhere incidentally, boons happen the same way, and some classes chain together active mitigation in such a way that you can’t know the windows unless you sit down and practice against them, or play them yourself.

I think the Rune/Sigil system are part of the problem, honestly. I think runes/sigils should be extremely basic and weaker, mostly just extending durations of individual boons/conditions, increasing damage by a bit, or providing effects on weapon swap (like life steal, etc.).

However, one thing I’ve really been working on is tempering my frustration with respect to active mitigation spam. Sure, initial appearances are irritating. You feel like you can’t get any hits in, when you do they feel ineffectual because of heals/etc., and it can feel fruitless. I’ve felt that keenly in the past, especially since I play a Necromancer, a class where they seemed to still believe in the idea of graphical tells. It felt like they could just “roll their face” across all of their mitigation, while initiating attacks/dazes/etc. instantly to counter almost all of my abilities.

I know that irritation when another class feels like it has the advantages, but is it truly a bad thing to have to learn another class? Imagine the case where you practice for a long time against a Daredevil using stomp and evasion, then you run into one in a game and obliterate him. Now what does he do? He’s already spamming evasions, so where does he go from there?

He has to learn what you’re doing and use his mitigation properly instead of spamming it. If he spams it, he’s predictable, and if he’s predictable, he’s probably counterable.

Is this good design? Eeeeeeeeh, hard to say. It makes the barrier of entry annoying for new players when they are evade-spammed and feel helpless, potentially constricting the influx of newer players. On the flip side, many games have instances where your first encounters with certain heroes/levels/etc. are difficult/feel impossible. There’s something to be said for persevering and actively wanting to become a better player to overcome those difficulties, so I think in a sense it’s fine.

Combined with condi spam (especially blind) and boon spam, it feels like too much. I’ll agree with that. I think more people need to separate themselves from the emotional frustration of early failure, though, so they can explore solutions and grow as players instead of just quitting. Otherwise, they’ll end up hopping from game to game, quitting whenever things get difficult. If they enjoy that, that’s fine, but I don’t know if you can design a game around it, unless it’s an easy, non-competitive game.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Caine.8204

Caine.8204

Partially agree…for now I’m just doing hot joins so I can get dailies and then head back to pve. Awaiting patiently for more balance patches.

I wouldn’t say there was no work or effort…a lot of work was done, and mostly elite specs need marginal nerfs/buffs to begin with (as these might not be enough).

DH:

->DH traps need increased cast time (1 second).

Scrapper:

->Hammer 3 needs to be reduced to 1 impact, reduce evade to 1/2 second

Revenant:

-> Reduce evade on unrelenting assault to 1/2 second

Warriors:

-> Slow adrenaline degeneration out of combat
-> Increase stances duration by two seconds
-> Evade on GS rush 3/4 second-

Tempest Elementalists:

->Make Harmonious conduit baseline
->Harmonious Conduit replacement trait: pulse blindness on overload (1 second interval)

Thief:

->Shadow refuge: Add protection on activation and pulse blindness on shadow refuge (1 second pulse) increase healing to 3000.
->Pistol skill headshot: add knockdown duration 1 second

Chronomancer:

->Increase cast time of Tides of time to 3/4
->Gravity well reduce knockdown duration to 1/2 second

This should be a nice starting point

Starting point? A lot of these are nerfs and buffs far more powerful than the ones ANET would dish out. These would straight up ruin balance.

DH Traps need a longer cast time, but increasing it by 1/4 a second is a 50% increase.. it should stop there

Scrapper is decent but rare, it’s harder to play. I agree on the evasion nerf, evasion is too prevalent now

Rev was already nerfed. they should just reduce the damage on that ability (that makes them invuln) by 10-15% and call it good.

Warrior, reduce adrenaline reduction out of combat, but make some of the other abilities good. Increasing stance duration? everyone already runs stances…

we need more diversity, not more meta builds.

(edited by Caine.8204)

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Posted by: Vague Memory.2817

Vague Memory.2817

I appreciate the well thought out answer (@Cogbyrn). Not used to that in the PvP section. Thing is I’m not a new player. There has to be a threshold level where it feels like no effort has been put into PvP game play. It just isn’t enjoyable to play it at the moment.

I guess someone could say adapt and overcome, but what that really means it you can’t beat them, join them. I don’t think abusing broken classes or builds is fun because they have a low skill floor, and personally I don’t find it satisfying beating another player knowing there was nothing they could do about. A few people don’t find that a problem though, a win is a win them. To me, if I know I’ve played well that makes it fun.

The problem with balance in PvP at the moment is the devs just keep adding more and more variables into the mix, making it increasing difficult to balance, or even to pin down problems. For instance they introduce a whole bunch of elites with new skills etc. (untested) and then at the same time threw in a whole bunch of new runes and sigils. This makes no sense if you are trying to produce a balanced game. In science you you never add so many new variables at once because you can not predict the unintended relationships between them, making it almost impossible to have a desired outcome.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

@Vague: Yeah, I agree with your general sentiment. There are too many variables thrown in. It feels like everything is on the gas, and nothing is on the brakes, and balance will be attained by the sheer number of variables. Classes have more access to conditions, so there needs to be more condition clearing available. Classes have more access to boons, so there needs to be more boon stripping/counterplay. Then there’s more boon stripping/counter-play, and suddenly classes need more access to boons. It’s a philosophy of “more, more, more”, when I really think there needs to be someone to say “whoa, we need less” (or fewer).

I don’t subscribe to that method personally, and think less is more with respect to meaningful PvP interactions (active mitigations, condi application, boon usage, etc.). At this point though, I’m concerned it isn’t going to go through a super serious overhaul, so I’m working on taking my favorite class/build and working on nuances in gameplay to overcome certain fights/situations. I may not win tournaments, but at the very least I can enjoy my time with such a mentality shift.

And if after extensive play I conclude that something feels like it’s unbeatable, I’ll provide feedback on it. However, that will come after teamplay/role/etc. analysis. One person beating me in a 1on1 consistently because of evades isn’t necessarily OP or a design flaw if it can be countered by teamplay.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: MAN.9046

MAN.9046

@OP already beat ya to it :p if u wanna pick up a new PvP game try Smite, I did and it’s tons of fun. I love this game but its too much of a clusterkitten right now, plus since leegz r coming, we are likely to just get farmed by ratsquads unless the guys at anet add SoloQ. Or maybe not, how else are we gonna feed the esport boiz, right?

RIP
FeelsBadMan

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Posted by: TheGuy.3568

TheGuy.3568

I guess someone could say adapt and overcome, but what that really means it you can’t beat them, join them. I don’t think abusing broken classes or builds is fun because they have a low skill floor, and personally I don’t find it satisfying beating another player knowing there was nothing they could do about. A few people don’t find that a problem though, a win is a win them. To me, if I know I’ve played well that makes it fun.

What is considered balanced is in the eye of the beholder at the end of the day. If you have been in pvp this long you will realize that despite the many metas players who choose to adapt will have more success in general. Everyone with a gripe with a class or build tosses out a similar line, “I don’t feel right winning with a broken class/build”. In many cases the builds they consider broken are. In many more the builds they consider broken are not and they are just too lazy to counter or out play them.

That why we see the same complaints over and over again with the same undertone. ‘I am a good player who just wants balanced but I keep getting beat by these cheese builds’. Yet it remains that most of the build are easy to counter. They just have the tendency to go against the logic of closing the gap and running your rotation as you wait for result. Many of these cheese builds punish players who do not use logic, do not try to actively counter meta builds, or just rush in spamming. So nerfs will come but the situation remains the same. Most players can not no rather will not separate their lack of skill from critical thinking when it comes to balance. It is too emotional for them and they end up in the same state over and over.

Come to the forums beg for nerfs, when/if they come find a new build to kitten about.

What makes this some of the worst I have ever seen it is that some builds are so fresh that people opted to complain first rather than learn to counter them. This is not ele DD. This aint celestial. Most of these builds are glass with little counters to focus fire yet players who say they have been pvping for years have issues with them. It defies logic. Years of experience with various metas yet a week of traps (no different that trap ranger and the burn burst) has led to these type of tears? I keep finding myself questioning if many of you played mindless builds for 3 years, got your dragon, and just stopped trying.

At this point the idea of getting better, playing the builds to learn their counters, and changing your own build to compensate have gone out the window in favor of crying to get your way. Even after they nerf these classes you will still lose to so many builds.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG. DH will get nerfed (more) as will most of the new elites. No real question there. Nor am I saying that this process should be stopped because balance is good for the game with all it’s highs and lows. However, I can’t imagine how in the hell you enjoy this game if every meta you go through the same crises over and over and over again? “get good”, and “L2P” are insults but they are additionally advise. The best players whoso many praise play the same broken op builds in tourney. People use them as a measuring stick but yet they consistently do the same thing and adapt to the meta. If you are not willing to do that then why the hell are you here?

Kor The Cold Heart War
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele

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Posted by: Ninjeff.6510

Ninjeff.6510

Hi. Like the OP I only come to the forums to complain. I like to call the devs names and belittle them while saying their game that I play is crap. I offer no constructive criticism, no real information on the topic, and definitely no way to fix the problems I come here to complain about. Once I am done complaining I will threaten to quit the game because they fixed nothing I have been complaining about. Not only that, I like to complain about very vague and general things, like an expansion being added to the game. I want the game to remain the same as it was when I liked it and was doing well as I am not able to adapt to any changes made. I am 90% of forum posts and offer nothing to the community. Thank you for listening.

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Posted by: rchu.8945

rchu.8945

Thief:
->Shadow refuge: Add protection on activation and pulse blindness on shadow refuge (1 second pulse) increase healing to 3000.
->Pistol skill headshot: add knockdown duration 1 second

lol, are you serious? No, just no.

Suggest nerfing elites and buff 2 classes that you probably main in PvP? Yea nice try buddy.

Sanctum of Rall
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer

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Posted by: glaphen.5230

glaphen.5230

Thief:
->Shadow refuge: Add protection on activation and pulse blindness on shadow refuge (1 second pulse) increase healing to 3000.
->Pistol skill headshot: add knockdown duration 1 second

lol, are you serious? No, just no.

Yet it still wouldn’t even let you revive with a DH in the game.

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Posted by: Vague Memory.2817

Vague Memory.2817

Hi. Like the OP I only come to the forums to complain. I like to call the devs names and belittle them while saying their game that I play is crap. I offer no constructive criticism, no real information on the topic, and definitely no way to fix the problems I come here to complain about. Once I am done complaining I will threaten to quit the game because they fixed nothing I have been complaining about. Not only that, I like to complain about very vague and general things, like an expansion being added to the game. I want the game to remain the same as it was when I liked it and was doing well as I am not able to adapt to any changes made. I am 90% of forum posts and offer nothing to the community. Thank you for listening.

Slow clap. E minus because you tried. 1/10 for entertainment. Your best score yet.

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Posted by: Ninjeff.6510

Ninjeff.6510

Am I wrong though? Yes a bunch of new abilities were added to the game, but games need this from time to time or they become stale and boring. Anet is going to be trying hard to balance PvP for the Pro Leagues and tournaments coming up. They said more balance patches and more often. Now is the time to offer constructive feedback, actual numbers, and real information. If all you do is come to the forums to complain about how the new abilities/specs added to the game broke it, then what will that fix?

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Posted by: Vague Memory.2817

Vague Memory.2817

Am I wrong though? Yes a bunch of new abilities were added to the game, but games need this from time to time or they become stale and boring. Anet is going to be trying hard to balance PvP for the Pro Leagues and tournaments coming up. They said more balance patches and more often. Now is the time to offer constructive feedback, actual numbers, and real information. If all you do is come to the forums to complain about how the new abilities/specs added to the game broke it, then what will that fix?

Yes you are wrong. You are totally ignoring the fact they made this avoidable mess in the first place. This isn’t about having new skills and mechanics in the game, this is about not testing anything before putting it in the game. Exacerbating current game play issues and then creating more problems. Then leaving it like this to fester for weeks until they can retroactively sort it out.

You say to offer constructive feedback, but really are people who think adding copious additional amounts of damage, stacking, evades, teleports, superspeed, quickness, invulns, blocks, low skill threshold gameplay, and new runes/amulets all in the pot at the same time (hoping somehow it will magically balance out) really listening. I could write a 3 essay on what is currently wrong, but should I really have to.

Anyone with common sense knows if you add all these things at once untested it will break what is left of balance. BTW I never said I was quitting the game, I said I was considering dropping PvP, so please read before making a fanciful story up.

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Posted by: Ninjeff.6510

Ninjeff.6510

Well you missed some of the irony in my first “fanciful story” post. Im not trying to attack you, but what I am saying remains true. You stated a bunch of unfounded opinions as complaints with nothing to back them up. You’ve offered nothing constructive. You’ve belittled the devs and the game they created with very little explanation other than, “The devs have poured ample amounts of evades, damage, stacking, evade speed, superspeed, leaps, quickness into PvP with no regard to how it plays out. PvP just feels in general broken to me.”

Feels broken. WTF does that even mean? Sounds like you’re just confused about the changes and how to adapt. Period.

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Posted by: eleshazar.6902

eleshazar.6902

Partially agree…for now I’m just doing hot joins so I can get dailies and then head back to pve. Awaiting patiently for more balance patches.

I wouldn’t say there was no work or effort…a lot of work was done, and mostly elite specs need marginal nerfs/buffs to begin with (as these might not be enough).

DH:

->DH traps need increased cast time (1 second).

Scrapper:

->Hammer 3 needs to be reduced to 1 impact, reduce evade to 1/2 second

Revenant:

-> Reduce evade on unrelenting assault to 1/2 second

Warriors:

-> Slow adrenaline degeneration out of combat
-> Increase stances duration by two seconds
-> Evade on GS rush 3/4 second-

Tempest Elementalists:

->Make Harmonious conduit baseline
->Harmonious Conduit replacement trait: pulse blindness on overload (1 second interval)

Thief:

->Shadow refuge: Add protection on activation and pulse blindness on shadow refuge (1 second pulse) increase healing to 3000.
->Pistol skill headshot: add knockdown duration 1 second

Chronomancer:

->Increase cast time of Tides of time to 3/4
->Gravity well reduce knockdown duration to 1/2 second

This should be a nice starting point

Well it’s painfully obvious which classes you play.

As I’ve seen in someone’s sig here: “Nerf Rock, paper seems fine. – Scissors”

All professions level 80| Champion Paragon, Phantom, Genius
Phoenix Ascendant [ASH] | Rank 80

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Posted by: eleshazar.6902

eleshazar.6902

Am I wrong though? Yes a bunch of new abilities were added to the game, but games need this from time to time or they become stale and boring. Anet is going to be trying hard to balance PvP for the Pro Leagues and tournaments coming up. They said more balance patches and more often. Now is the time to offer constructive feedback, actual numbers, and real information. If all you do is come to the forums to complain about how the new abilities/specs added to the game broke it, then what will that fix?

Yes you are wrong. You are totally ignoring the fact they made this avoidable mess in the first place. This isn’t about having new skills and mechanics in the game, this is about not testing anything before putting it in the game. Exacerbating current game play issues and then creating more problems. Then leaving it like this to fester for weeks until they can retroactively sort it out.

You say to offer constructive feedback, but really are people who think adding copious additional amounts of damage, stacking, evades, teleports, superspeed, quickness, invulns, blocks, low skill threshold gameplay, and new runes/amulets all in the pot at the same time (hoping somehow it will magically balance out) really listening. I could write a 3 essay on what is currently wrong, but should I really have to.

Anyone with common sense knows if you add all these things at once untested it will break what is left of balance. BTW I never said I was quitting the game, I said I was considering dropping PvP, so please read before making a fanciful story up.

Not testing any of the skills in game… It’s almost like you don’t know about these beta weekend events.

All professions level 80| Champion Paragon, Phantom, Genius
Phoenix Ascendant [ASH] | Rank 80