Guild Wars 2

The real question we should ask when we analyze a class in pvp:
How hard it is to land your skill in pvp, and what’s the up time for dps. In pve you usually don’t have to worry if your skills hit; the monsters are not player.

Let’s assume we accept the notion that Ele’s damage is 15-20% higher than the warrior’s during a 10s period (which is very debatable). Now the total damage will be:
Warrior’s damage = 1.0 * normalized_dps * (1 – dps_downtime) * hit_rate
Ele’s damage = 1.2 * normalized_dps * (1 – dps_downtime) * hit_rate

In pve, we can assume that both the players play perfectly, so the hit_rate for both classes is 100%. It’s also widely accepted that the ele with half HP will need to interrupt their skill more often. Which class wins? It depends on your judgement of how much more often the Ele has to interrupt their skill and affects their dps_downtime.

Now in pvp, we can’t assume that the hit_rate is 100% anymore. Warrior has such an easier time to hit with their skills. Ele’s skills have longer cast time and are more predictable given both their known rotations and highly telegraphed visuals. On top of that, the 5 targets limit also reduces the hit_rate for Ele. Consider 2 Ele fighting a spirit ranger and a minion necromancer, the Ele can barely hit the real champion at all, since most of the random hits will hit the minions instead.

On top of that, the dps_downtime for Ele is also much higher. Ele usually needs to switch to water and heal, or casts their heal skill, both of which take out the dps time. The reason why the bunker ele build with Signet of Restoration was so popular is because it optimizes for a low dps_downtime variable, and it offers the Ele more dps time with decent healing. Healing with a bunker D/D just mean swap to water and dodge, and occasionally press Water 5. You have much more time to dps (that’s why together with might stacks, they still have an okay dps).

Nevertheless, Ele (especially the non D/D bunker Ele) also needs to heal more often because of their low HP pool. Ele often needs to heal after they take 8k damage, since that means they only have about 4k HP left. Warrior can keep dps longer. Imagine a warrior fighting an ele, assuming equal skill level, you can tell right away that the Ele will have to heal first, and that is a great opportunity for the warrior to finish off the ele. Warrior also has the passive Healing Signet, which has zero negative effect on dps_downtime.

Even the 20% more damage coefficient can’t help the poor ele, since the Warrior has much more armor, and it reduces the damage they deal to each other to roughly equal.

TL;DR: Conclusion: in pve, Ele is in a decent spot with the presume highest damage if played optimally, or a subpar damage if need to pay more attention to stay survive.
In pvp Ele is in a very kittenty spot since the presume damage coefficient is nullified by the other higher armor class, a kittenty hit_rate, a high dps_downtime, and a lot of wasted time for animation/healing.

Warriors have some of the most choreographed and easiest to predict abilities in the game.

But nevermind that. The class mechanics of ele have not changed much since they were disgustingly overpowered. Why does all of this apply now, and not then? If the class mechanics are proven to work, why can’t ArenaNet just change the numbers?

Here are two more problems to add to the list.

—If the ultimate goal is to have equal viability between classes we need to turn a critical eye to the issue of mobility. It doesn’t stand to reason that the devs selectively target the lowest hp/armor class with a 40 sec mobility nerf while allowing the highest hp/armor class to run wild with incredibly low cd gs/sword mobility skills. There’s at least a decent argument to be made for why a low armor class needs more mobility than a high armor one. The devs either need to unnerf rtl or tack on a 40 sec cd to warriors gs/s if they don’t hit an opponent.

— Attunement swapping, which I hope we can agree is the elementalist’s weapon swap, is grossly imbalanced when compared to other classes. As it stands now eles are being taxed 30 trait points just to get the same weapon swap cd that other classes have before spending any trait points at all. Look at warriors and necros: both classes can lower weapon swapping to 5 or 6 seconds respectively via fast hands and near to death — yes, death shroud is a weapon swap of sorts. I think if the devs would lower the cd on attunement swapping with 0 points in arcana to 10 seconds it would make the ele much more viable, allowing players to spend those wasted trait points in fire or earth. It would also significantly increase the number of viable builds. Furthermore, with 30 points in arcana the attunement cd should be reduced to 6 seconds. It’s not that wild of an idea because there is already a precedent for this in the fast hands and close to death mechanics.

I think if these two problems were addressed you would see an increase in the number of elementalists in pvp. Well, more than 0.

Minoru.1237:

Here are two more problems to add to the list.

—If the ultimate goal is to have equal viability between classes we need to turn a critical eye to the issue of mobility. It doesn’t stand to reason that the devs selectively target the lowest hp/armor class with a 40 sec mobility nerf while allowing the highest hp/armor class to run wild with incredibly low cd gs/sword mobility skills. There’s at least a decent argument to be made for why a low armor class needs more mobility than a high armor one. The devs either need to unnerf rtl or tack on a 40 sec cd to warriors gs/s if they don’t hit an opponent.

Warrior Rush is affected by snares. RtL was not. That is why Rush is not, and was not, overpowered and a 20 second RtL was. RtL also crossed the distance significantly faster than Rush does. The two skills are not equivalent. Ranger Swoop is similar to Rush, minus being a little bit faster. You can’t just tack on a 40 second CD and call it a day.

I did disagree with the 40 second CD change, don’t get me wrong. I think a more adequate change would to just make it a normal movement ability with all the hindrances of a movement ability.

— Attunement swapping,

I definitely agree with this though. The recharge on attunements is too high and it’s just a really cumbersome mechanic compared to other classes.

You can be bound while attempting rtl.

Minoru.1237:

You can be bound while attempting rtl.

I apologize. By snares, I mean chill and cripple. It’s a WoW term.

I agree on most of the points, as well, the warrior can have a 900 passive heal. Witch is outrageous, considering it takes up 0 time and nulls most of our damage. Where as we need to swap attunements, dodge, press 5 and 2. And possibly cast a heal. All while the war is regening most of its health AND dpsing the hell out of us. (Thats balance folks!)

Larynx.2453:

Warriors have some of the most choreographed and easiest to predict abilities in the game.

I think you meant to say “telegraphed”.

Larynx.2453:

But nevermind that. The class mechanics of ele have not changed much since they were disgustingly overpowered. Why does all of this apply now, and not then?

Defense and mobility have been greatly reduced, and eles were powerful due to possessing both. Damage oriented builds (defined by gear more than traits, of course) were decent, but not particularly remarkable. S/D in particular suffered without teammates to help set up burst combos.

Just one question : why to compare Elementalist and Warrior class ?

yeah i see the problem with ele’s cast time in spvp. with the cc and interruption heavy meta it is hard to pull off an ele for sure. mesmers can go in stealth if they are on cooldown and also have shorter cooldowns. probably why i still feel ok in svpv with my mes.
in wvw the ele is much more powerful and in a way better place, but in spvp u cant kite around the zerg, but if the warrior train focuses u, there is not much u can do since all the nerfs. eles have gotten about as many nerfs as wvw mesmers did(turning us into veilbots). after all other classes have been buffed, i think its time now to take a look at those nerfs and if they are still really necessary. in wvw the ele is pretty fine and strong atm, but in spvp i dont see why certain nerfs werent reverted after other classes have been buffed.

Larynx.2453:

But nevermind that. The class mechanics of ele have not changed much since they were disgustingly overpowered. Why does all of this apply now, and not then? If the class mechanics are proven to work, why can’t ArenaNet just change the numbers?

I have talked about that in my post. Maybe you missed it? I quoted it again down here.

Sunshine.5014:

The reason why the bunker ele build with Signet of Restoration was so popular is because it optimizes for a low dps_downtime variable, and it offers the Ele more dps time with decent healing. Healing with a bunker D/D just mean swap to water and dodge, and occasionally press Water 5. You have much more time to dps (that’s why together with might stacks, they still have an okay dps).

You wonder what changed? Let me tell you:
- Signet of Restoration nerfed badly, and it only heal for half of the value in pvp now. This change means the bunker ele needs to switch into water much more often to survive. That also means the dps uptime was decreased.
- At that time, only Thief and Mesmer have the bursts that can instantly drop Ele to 20% HP. For other classes, Ele can stay out of Water a long time, and has high dps uptime. However, most of the other classes have been buffed significantly over the period, and they can deal insane damage. Now, basically any class can burst down an Ele if spec’ed into it. This reduces Bunker Ele into the state of having to spend too much time just to survive, and can’t deal damage well anymore.
- Ele can’t clean conditions well anymore. The nerf to Cleansing Fire and Water tree made Ele vulnerable to all the conditions spam from Necro/Engineers/Spirit Rangers. Beside Cleansing Fire no longer have stun break, Mist Form also got nerfed hard.
- Ele was annoying to a lot of people because they could run away from a battle. That is no longer true for most cases, since the nerf to Lightning Flash range and Ride the Lightning cooldown and Ele’s Air Aura (Swiftness duration halved). Lightning Flash also got the stun break removed.

So, in reply to your question: yes, Ele was nerfed hard, while other classes got a lot of buff
That’s the reason why all of this apply now, and not then.

Do you agree with that?

Sunshine.5014:

Do you agree with that?

The way I interpreted your post was that elementalists have a fundamental design issues, such as from this bit: "Warrior has such an easier time to hit with their skills. Ele’s skills have longer cast time and are more predictable given both their known rotations and highly telegraphed visuals. "

I’m not saying elementalists are fine, I’m just saying the issues are number issues versus class mechanic issues. You pretty much defined what I consider “number issues” in your “what changed” list.

If what you’re saying is that eles need to spend so much effort being defensive that it hurts their offensive capabilities, then sure I can understand that and might agree with it. I think I was just misunderstanding your post when I made mine.

Jesus take the wheel.

ensoriki.5789:

Jesus take the wheel.

Do you ever have any constructive contributions to threads or do you just spam them with meaningless gibberish?

Clown inc, divebomb the belugas ASAP.

Larynx.2453:

ensoriki.5789:

Jesus take the wheel.

Do you ever have any constructive contributions to threads or do you just spam them with meaningless gibberish?

Find out for yourself.

Larynx.2453:

If what you’re saying is that eles need to spend so much effort being defensive that it hurts their offensive capabilities, then sure I can understand that and might agree with it. I think I was just misunderstanding your post when I made mine.

We’re in agreement. Thank you for your constructive post.

You also brought up a good point: are the problems Ele is facing a product of class mechanisms or a number problem?

I think right now it’s definitely numbers problem; however, there are also problems with class mechanisms that make it so hard to balance Ele. It’s too easy to misbalance Ele and make the class OP or severely underpowered. Gives it too much healing capability, and it’s unkillable. Gives it too little healing, and the class die instantly in team fight due to the lowest HP and Armor.

Right now, the biggest problem Ele is facing is the average damage output from other classes are very high. Anyone can deal more than 10k damage within seconds, and that’s devastating for Ele, with the base HP of 10.8k.

I think ANet should increase the base HP of Ele and reduce the animation cast time. That way ANet doesn’t need to give Ele too much healing capability, one of the reasons why the Bunker Ele was OP in the first place.

Amongst all the clutter, a consensus seems to surface that ele damage is just fine, but he’s too busy staying alive. I like that conclusion it is how I see things too.

The latest nerfs were malicious. It introduced negativity to eles : dying without making mistakes.

You now have to be sure your RTL actually hits someone. That adds a random element to a fight that was not there before, plus it makes it stupid to use RTL as a gapcloser at its maximum range (which was also nerfed :p). The LF nerfs were equally negative and uncalled for. The stun removal is downright nasty if you die from it. Use what was once the best utility in GW2 (with an appropriately loooong cooldown) but it won’t save you reliably anymore.

Lots of eles refuse to put up with that. There’s always wvw though, where you can pick your own fights more easily.

Anet can’t measure that….so what will happen is :

1) first they wait for the new meta and see if that brings eles back with their shiny new conjured weapons or their staff and people will magically forget that stunning an elementalist WORKS. That should only take another 5 months.
2) when that doesn’t have the desired effect they will adjust the damage / healing / cooldown numbers unnecessarily to restore pvp balance.
3) at the point where eles become viable in pvp again, lots of spike builds or tanky builds or healy builds will surface, seriously affecting other game modes.

And all it takes is to have a really hard look at how an ele fight pans out compared to pre-nerf, especially when he doesn’t initiate the fight.

God i am glad theres wvw