Guild Wars 2

What’s a good way to counter mesmers with heavy retaliation?

Im not talking about removing boons, because alot of professions have no way to remove boons, so how can we counter it?

Confusion + retaliation mesmers do alot of damage, only choice is to not attack them which is auto win for them…

I can remove confusion from me easily, but because they sill have retaliation up almost 100% of the time, they tank like crazy and if I attack them I die…because of 15-20k retaliation….so my only choice is to not attack….while they still do heavy damage even without the retaliation….

How is that balanced?

You can’t attack them without killing yourself from retaliation, and they still do heavy damage even if you don’t attack them when retaliation is up…either way they win…just by running that build giving them an auto win…

So is there another way to counter this im missing besides not attacking / removing boons since I do not see those at decent ways to counter…I dont even see that as a counter at all…

This doesn’t even include the clones aswell…

Here are a few counters:

1. Single large hits
2. Conditions (condi necros, caltrop thieves etc)
3. Boon stripping (as you mentioned)
4. Minions (you let them do the damage instead)
5. Quick burst (retal gets more powerful as the fight drags on)

bhagwad.4281:

Here are a few counters:

1. Single large hits
2. Conditions (condi necros, caltrop thieves etc)
3. Boon stripping (as you mentioned)
4. Minions (you let them do the damage instead)
5. Quick burst (retal gets more powerful as the fight drags on)

Large hit didnt work for me, the mesmer would just not go down
Conditions they just removed
I don’t have any boon stripping on this profession
No minions
Quick burst also not enough to kill them and hurt me more..

First and foremost if its the build I am sure you are talking about… Focus the illusions here… ignore the Mesmer to begin with… First thing… take down the phantasmal defender right as soon as he pops… DO NOT USE AOES while you’re trying to do it because in that case you will kill yourself… once the defender is down… enjoy… This build does NO damage outside of retal I know this because I run it on a regular… If someone stands there and lets me beat on them and they do nothing but heal… I literally will not get them down… ever… They (the Mesmer) removed conditions because either A.) they have removal on heal or B.) they have runes of melandru… sadly in a 1v1 this is a very hard build to bring down… but that is the point of it… But the best thing to do is spam what conditions you got… I can’t think of too many professions that don’t have that great of access to conditions… Guardians pretty much get burning and in bunker v bunker… They fight usually won’t end… And if you are a guard… DO NOT use whirling wrath because you will kill yourself…

TRON.1085:

bhagwad.4281:

Here are a few counters:

1. Single large hits
2. Conditions (condi necros, caltrop thieves etc)
3. Boon stripping (as you mentioned)
4. Minions (you let them do the damage instead)
5. Quick burst (retal gets more powerful as the fight drags on)

Large hit didnt work for me, the mesmer would just not go down
Conditions they just removed
I don’t have any boon stripping on this profession
No minions
Quick burst also not enough to kill them and hurt me more..

These do work. I know because they counter me and I play a retal build. Single large hits work. Conditions work. Minions work. Boon stripping works.

If your build has none of these, then I just think that you found a counter for it.

1) Game is not balanced around 1v1, but around the conquest mode 5v5. “The Immortal Build Mesmer”, to which you are probably referring to, is by no means considered overpowered, or even strong enough to be competitively viable within the conquest mode meta, because it’s not a proper bunker (it lacks the sustain of a bunker), and it doesn’t burst (killing yourself on confusion/retaliation is not considered bursting).

2) Now to the question of handling one, it will depend on what situation you are in:

a) mesmer is defending a point: you need another person together with you, just like you would against a trap ranger, bunker ele, bunker engi and pretty much any proper close point defender build. It’s just not gonna work out if you are attacking him alone, but why would it? Attacking a node solo is just a waste of time anyway. If you really really wanna waste your team’s resources though, you MUST dodge the first shatter combo (retaliation building), as it gives you a lot of stacks of confusion. Avoid using AoE skills that would hit the phantasms too, because phantasms have 100% retaliation uptime skyrocketing the damage you would take. Pick a target (warlock or mesmer, ignore wardens unless you are a projectile based profession like ranger, because of reflect) and focus down that target. Avoid using multi or fast-hitting attacks like ranger shortbow #1, grenades or flamethrower, because that’s the highway to hell, even if it costs you damage. Wait out your opportunity, because unlike what paper says, this build usually does not have 100% retaliation uptime, as it heavily relies on reapplication via combo fields (asynchronic cooldowns between skills) and RNG from chaos storm, either of which is not certain, so sooner or later, mesmer will be without any retaliation and that’s when you strike at him.

b) mesmer is attacking a point: easy mode, he’s not going to kill you unless you try to kill him really hard. That’s the problem with this build, people wanna kill retal mesmers way too hard, thinking they’re shatter spec, and that’s why they fail. As long as you keep standing on your point the mesmer is not going to cap it, and he’s not going to kill you if you concentrate on defending yourself, just wait it out until reinforcements arrive (with a defensive build you could effortlessly wait all game), and dodge the shatters just like you would normally.

c) mesmer is contesting an uncapped point: if you are there, he’s not capping it, but his friends are coming. Unless yours are coming too, get out as fast as you can. It’s a good idea to focus this mesmer down at the beginning of the fight, as he will do heaps of mayhem from all the random AoEing and bashing and smashing at all directions during a teamfight (I daresay even more than a normal shatter spec).

The bottom line is, that retaliation is only as strong as you make it out to be. Remember that it does not mitigate any damage at all, and that the one killing you is nobody but yourself.

Aside from traiting one of their shatters, Mesmers have only one way to get Retaliation; leap finisher through a light field. They have access to one light field on a 25s CD, and two leap finishers on two different weapons. One of them is on staff, which they couldn’t use in correlation with the light field (on focus) unless they weapon swap. Which would be stupid because the leap finisher on their 1 hand sword is a lower c/d than weapon swapping when traited.

I mean really, could there be an easier thing to counter?

Celeras.4980:

Aside from traiting one of their shatters, Mesmers have only one way to get Retaliation; leap finisher through a light field. They have access to one light field on a 25s CD, and two leap finishers on two different weapons. One of them is on staff, which they couldn’t use in correlation with the light field (on focus) unless they weapon swap. Which would be stupid because the leap finisher on their 1 hand sword is a lower c/d than weapon swapping when traited.

I mean really, could there be an easier thing to counter?

Wow… just no… Okay number one in this build the focus is traited so its CD is 20 seconds not 25 (duration of 5 seconds… So really 15) You can get a total of 3 combo finishers off of it in 5 second duration (iLeap+Swap+Blurred+Phase Retreat) Each one gives 7 seconds of Retal… So off of one light field they can get 21 seconds… Then for the traited shatter they get 5 seconds for each illusion… And the CORE PART OF THIS BUILD is to have phantasms up at all time because each one of them has full uptime on retal minor trait in inspiration… So this build specifically has a full uptime on retaliation plus 5 different sources I say 5 because this build also depends on having a phantasmal defender which naturally has retaliation from hits that it absorbs for people it defends… So any AOE… Is just an instant win 1v1 for this build 9 out of 10 times.. In groups its harder to keep the defender alive but Not impossible.

TRON.1085:

bhagwad.4281:

2. Conditions (condi necros, caltrop thieves etc)

Conditions they just removed

this is funny as hell, i saw in another topic like a mesmer complains about having no chance against conditions this forum doesnt stop to make me laugh

bhagwad.4281:

TRON.1085:

bhagwad.4281:

Here are a few counters:

1. Single large hits
2. Conditions (condi necros, caltrop thieves etc)
3. Boon stripping (as you mentioned)
4. Minions (you let them do the damage instead)
5. Quick burst (retal gets more powerful as the fight drags on)

Large hit didnt work for me, the mesmer would just not go down
Conditions they just removed
I don’t have any boon stripping on this profession
No minions
Quick burst also not enough to kill them and hurt me more..

These do work. I know because they counter me and I play a retal build. Single large hits work. Conditions work. Minions work. Boon stripping works.

If your build has none of these, then I just think that you found a counter for it.

^this

/thread

Everyone has access to nullification sigil :P

ITT: mesmer players going to crazy extents to justify their terribly designed class, once again.

kinda pathetic at this point…

Razor.6392:

ITT: mesmer players going to crazy extents to justify their terribly designed class, once again.

kinda pathetic at this point…

Dude seriously… Even in this build… Arguably our tankiest mesmers are going to suffer with conditions… full runes of melandru one skill slot for condi removal and this build still suffers from condition damage more so than any other bunker class… The big upside to this build is it is really good at punishing the button mashers… The focus reflect still kills most SB rangers. And once again do you realize how much damage an ele can do no matter what? I already gave you an example of how you can might stack better than most other classes in this game and use churning earth while landing it… Just stop….

The best and most reliable way to kill my build is with a full damage phantasm mesmer build. That is the only build that can reliably dismantle mine.

That being said, in sPvP it is vulnerable to heavy condition stacking since I can’t use my staple -40% duration food. It does have significant condition removal between mender’s purity, runes of melandru, and the iWarden whirl finisher on the temporal curtain light field, a condition necro can still hurt, especially if I am caught off guard. Don’t even bother with a condition thief though, as that is either tons of hits (blossom) = instadead or tons of projectiles (p/d) = reflected.

Boon stripping isn’t an effective way to fight it, as the retaliation can be reapplied so often that even the heaviest boon stripping wont stick.

The most important thing to avoid is multiple hitting attacks. Whirling wrath and flamethrower are 2 attacks that will kill you within 2 seconds, and that is not an exaggeration. Grenades are almost as bad. Bouncing attacks (thief shortbow, ranger axe) are pretty dangerous too. Single target damage is preferred. Additionally, avoiding projectiles is very important, as this build has a near 100% uptime on projectile reflects if necessary to do.

Ultimately, the easiest way to kill this build is to take friends. However, unless the 2 people attacking are either extremely heavy condition damage necros or super spike thieves, I will survive long enough for my help to arrive as well.

Watch out! The best mesmer from GW2 is teaching us how the game will be played around mesmers, while he QQ how strong churning earth is.

To the topic: this build is in no way viable in tournaments. You have absolutely no damage. I mean even a thief can stay next to you dancing and won’t die. Also you lack of condition remove heavily (like every mesmer does). So probably every player that knows how this build works, can counter it.

Make a Ranger, become god.

retaliation is overpowered and needs to be nerfed by 25-50%. I see my deaths from mesmers/guardians being about 80% of the time like 5-15k from retaliation. It’s just insanely stupid.

Incidentally, this is a factual sign of a problem: When people discover something is overpowered…EVERYBODY starts doing it, pigeonholing the builds for those professions and making it so there aren’t any different options if you want to win pvp.

Meridian.8730:

retaliation is overpowered and needs to be nerfed by 25-50%. I see my deaths from mesmers/guardians being about 80% of the time like 5-15k from retaliation. It’s just insanely stupid.

Incidentally, this is a factual sign of a problem: When people discover something is overpowered…EVERYBODY starts doing it, pigeonholing the builds for those professions and making it so there aren’t any different options if you want to win pvp.

okay and everytime I die to a necro or an engi or a ranger being about 80% of the time bleeding… Does that make it so OP… I mean if its so factual then all of my deaths that are from bleeding should mean that it needs nerfed… amiright? Retaliation is a way for classes that build bunkerish to try and deal a little bit more damage… You see so much damage from retaliation most likely because you spammed AOES and everyone on the other team had it up thanks to “Stand Your Ground” and you nuked yourself… Retal damage is mitigated by high single target burst because the damage from it goes per attack not the amount of damage you do in that attack… if you sit there and keep “Pew Pew” without figuring out why your health is melting… Guess who’s fault that is? YOURS… Because retaliation does absolutely no damage if you do nothing now does this mean you may have to go to another point sure… But just bear in mind that while that guy is twittling his thumbs on an uncontested point the rest of the match is 4v5.

If you don’t attack, then you can’t kill. if you can’t kill, then you automatically lose the fight. When you need to kill to take points, then this is obviously a barrier.

Bleed can be a pita, depends on what skills you have. Those with lots of regen do just fine vs bleed since their regen offsets it. However, confusion/retaliation both do MUCH more damage than bleed and are affected by your actions, thereby preventing you from performing any to…kill the enemy to take the point…

But the problem I have is that certain builds are physically IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT AT ALL with certain professions. That means those professions who are unable to kill those builds – no matter what the losing profession’s build is, it still loses – are at a disadvantage and will eventually be considered of lesser value for pvp because they can’t win. Because it’s NOT an even playing field.

Thief is one of the best examples of a profession that simply can’t make any build that will beat a few extremely prevalent mesmer builds…because there are no thief builds that can beat a good mesmer. This is an imbalanced situation. Thief is, incidentally, also a great example of a profession that CANNOT bunker worth a kitten – whereas every other profession – including ele – CAN bunker.

Warrior is another good example of not really being good enough for pvp to bother with. Too many disadvantages.

Meridian.8730:

If you don’t attack, then you can’t kill. if you can’t kill, then you automatically lose the fight. When you need to kill to take points, then this is obviously a barrier.

Bleed can be a pita, depends on what skills you have. Those with lots of regen do just fine vs bleed since their regen offsets it. However, confusion/retaliation both do MUCH more damage than bleed and are affected by your actions, thereby preventing you from performing any to…kill the enemy to take the point…

But the problem I have is that certain builds are physically IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT AT ALL with certain professions. That means those professions who are unable to kill those builds – no matter what the losing profession’s build is, it still loses – are at a disadvantage and will eventually be considered of lesser value for pvp because they can’t win. Because it’s NOT an even playing field.

Thief is one of the best examples of a profession that simply can’t make any build that will beat a few extremely prevalent mesmer builds…because there are no thief builds that can beat a good mesmer. This is an imbalanced situation. Thief is, incidentally, also a great example of a profession that CANNOT bunker worth a kitten – whereas every other profession – including ele – CAN bunker.

Warrior is another good example of not really being good enough for pvp to bother with. Too many disadvantages.

Go make an HGH engi… FOTM build right there.

Finally i got it.
Bleeds are OP cause they do lot of damage and reta is not op cause you simply need not to attack. You target will die bored and you win.

In the real world.
Bleed can be removed as condition with skills every class got. Reta could be removed if you have the proper skill, if you don’t have call your friend. I think it’s OP when you need 2 player to kill one saying more you even get killed. In this way the bunker becomes the best dps. bho

Silferas.3841:

1) Game is not balanced around 1v1, but around the conquest mode 5v5.

And conquest mode consists of 3 capture points spread across a large map. Your entire 5-man team is not going to be at every point together at all times. 1 v 1 is perhaps the most important aspect of GW2 PvP, and most informative about the state of balance between classes, too. Even during big team fights, it is the 1 v 1 interactions that accumulate into a team victory for that specific fight.

TRON.1085:

bhagwad.4281:

Here are a few counters:

1. Single large hits
2. Conditions (condi necros, caltrop thieves etc)
3. Boon stripping (as you mentioned)
4. Minions (you let them do the damage instead)
5. Quick burst (retal gets more powerful as the fight drags on)

Large hit didnt work for me, the mesmer would just not go down
Conditions they just removed
I don’t have any boon stripping on this profession
No minions
Quick burst also not enough to kill them and hurt me more..

do you know the screen name of the player and what type of clones and phantasm the enemy was using?