Guild Wars 2

Nothing really to type out this time, just watch the video and let me know what you think. Thanks.

Countless

WvW Is PvP. The Difference between it and Instanced is the lack of control of population on each side. Other then that it’s basically the same.

IF you want to address WvW Problems (assuming pvp is balance) You really need to address the issues of Mechanics on the WvW itself, not really the classes.

It’s possible to tailor your idea to fit all three, but its very hard.

I think the point Hugh was making was try not to spam your idea’s and be a little more insightful and make them a little more thought out.

Anari.2137:

WvW Is PvP .

true.

Anari.2137:

WvW Is PvP. The Difference between it and Instanced is the lack of control of population on each side. Other then that it’s basically the same.

Its not really the same as far as balancing goes. Look at the original change to stab, didn’t seem to affect pvp much but had a huge effect on WvW. And this change BTW brings up an issue with Hugh’s statement. If they want players to think about the effect on all game modes then clearly they didn’t do that with the original change to stab. Not to mention letting it stay that way for so long which was a major contributory factor in the decline of WvW.

Just wasted 4mins of my life.

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Trigr.6481:

Nothing really to type out this time, just watch the video and let me know what you think.

i think you have a solution that’s looking for a problem

i was hoping you would actually have some interesting thoughts on skill balance but you just say “but they have to be filtered through PvE and WvW”

but ‘filtering’ for PvE balance is not hard at all; PvE balancing is 90% mob strength, 10% player output balancing. players dealing too much damage, increase mob hp. players dying too quickly, change boss mechanics. very few skills that actually matter for PvE, and they’ve created breakbars explicitly so they can ignore mass control/blind effect skills. if you’re saying that PvP sux because breakbars exist in PvE then… well you have an interesting pov

and most of the changes that they make for WvW are systemic, not oriented around skills; the most recent ones include the stability processing change (which only significantly affects a few small number of skills, basically just the rev staff 5) and the rally change (only actually has an effect in wvw)

like if you had something to say about why skills get nuked into junk, like maybe if you took an actual example of a skill that the devs chip down through these filters, then maybe we’d have something interesting

Anari.2137:

WvW Is PvP. The Difference between it and Instanced is the lack of control of population on each side. Other then that it’s basically the same.

IF you want to address WvW Problems (assuming pvp is balance) You really need to address the issues of Mechanics on the WvW itself, not really the classes.

It’s possible to tailor your idea to fit all three, but its very hard.

I think the point Hugh was making was try not to spam your idea’s and be a little more insightful and make them a little more thought out.

WvW and pvp are absolutely not the same at all.

In WvW you can have numbers ranging from 1 person to 50 man groups of people (zergs). Something is not overpowered for 1 person in pvp could definitely be overpowered when used by multiple people in WvW.

If they don’t split pvp and pve and wvw this game will continue to die as players move towards new games. At least the pvp side will die.

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Then the game will never reach its full potential when it comes to balance as far as I’m concerned. Doing it “their way” when you have a desired change, or creation of an idea, you always have a specified target of what it’s going to effect “wvw, pvp, pve”. However by the time you’re done filtering said Idea or change with thinking about how it will effect the other two game modes, the idea or change is either so radically different than your original thought that it’s either

A) not worth implementing at that point because it will not bring the change to the desired effect to impact balance in a positive way

or

B) The change will bring some sort of positive balance to one of the three, but harm the other two game modes to some degree.

I understand that it would take longer to implement such a change that I’m suggesting, but I’m willing to bet in the long run for sake of balance that it will be a change worth waiting for, despite how much more resources and time it would take to allocate. I’d be willing to wait it for something great than for something mediocre now.

Countless

I have to say this wasnt your best work.

You usually have something to say, here you dont even make attempt to address the issues. You just keep crying over a split for each model. (PvP, WvW, PvE)

If you wanted to be funny, you could of did what you did at the start and continued to make fun of them that way. Instead you put up a diagram which wasnt funny. You need to test your jokes out first to see if there funny, dont just fly into the sky first.

If you wanted to make fun of them for thinking they actually balance PvP go ahead. In the video the guy says people need to think about the idea that there is 3 areas that need balance for 1 group of weapons.

Talk about or make jokes about

• Core builds

*The fact they can change the difficulties of PvE content and raid bosses

*If they are so worried about WvW how come they couldnt come out with a decent new map. We now have back our old BL, which asks the question for WvW players. Why buy HOT and why the 20% gun flame nerf?

You could of had alot of material to really roast them but instead this video would of been boo booed of stage.

Trigr.6481:

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

Then the game will never reach its full potential when it comes to balance as far as I’m concerned. Doing it “their way” when you have a desired change, or creation of an idea, you always have a specified target of what it’s going to effect “wvw, pvp, pve”. However by the time you’re done filtering said Idea or change with thinking about how it will effect the other two game modes, the idea or change is either so radically different than your original thought that it’s either

A) not worth implementing at that point because it will not bring the change to the desired effect to impact balance in a positive way

or

B) The change will bring some sort of positive balance to one of the three, but harm the other two game modes to some degree.

I understand that it would take longer to implement such a change that I’m suggesting, but I’m willing to bet in the long run for sake of balance that it will be a change worth waiting for, despite how much more resources and time it would take to allocate. I’d be willing to wait it for something great than for something mediocre now.

Countless

Also i would like to point out that it be better for the players and you but not for the company.

They already have a script and a model that they like. Its takes alot of time and work to do this. Many gaming companies are talking about how they are playing the money business game with free 2 play games that are quick,easy to make, and lack the replay value.

X company makes a simply app game that took 20 man hrs and will make $200 per hour since its f2p and people will pay for quick character fixes/ new characters/ among other things.

Anet has made a huge MMO game that has no monthly fee which is why you see all the really bad gliders and outfits. They have to put in X 1,000 hrs per dollar and you are asking them to refit the whole thing when in 4-5 years the game probably will move onto GW3.

We are almost at the point where maybe the majority owner of the company sells to another company who will bury it by simply using its name to make money and put no effort into the game. Dragon Age Origins for example.

Aren’t there already some skill splits though? I.e.: in pvp access to certain stat sets/runes (durability) is barred. If I remember correctly they changed superior sigil of energy so in pvp it only grants vigor. If that isn’t proof enough that it’s too late to simultaneously balance around three separate game modes:

Retaliation is a boon. It scales off power because soldier’s was the original tank set. In PvE it’s negligible because everything does a few hard hits instead of many weak ones, and trying to tank damage and “wear them down” is pointless because the enemies are pretty much health sponges. But in PvP and WvW (according to the wiki) retaliation damage is reduced by one third.

Torment and confusion are terrible PvE condis from what I hear. Most enemies, again, attack infrequently and don’t move around too much. Old content mobs take an action once every few seconds, and you don’t want them moving too much or you waste AoE’s. But (correct me if I’m wrong) one of condi mesmer’s main strengths in PvP lies in confusion.

In WvW structures only take damage from raw power (non crit). It seems to be a balancing point between raw power and condis as well as an immersion aspect, so for instance there’s always some practical reason to take soldier’s over dire. In fractals they changed mechanics to better suit player builds, so you can now make gates bleed and stab ballistae in the eyes (apply condis and crits).

There are a couple ways to try and address these disparities: one is to balance separately between the game modes, which is undesirable because ideally you should be able to use similar builds with comparable performance in all three to success (too late for pvp, hold all these wack amulets and RIP soldier’s). The other is to redo most of the PvE mobs to behave more like players: similar actions/effects, more movement, etc. but this would take an obscene amount of time and work. What we have now is some slight differences between the game modes (except pvp where they’re pretty huge) but balancing has to be tried in all three and it’s failing. Pretty sure nobody plays condi mesmer in PvE.

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

You mean they have made a business decision based on profit margins which is totally valid but lets not beat around the bush. SPVP makes very little money for them and there for gets the least consideration for balance concerns. That’s why we see stuff like DH getting gutted despite already being mediocre. WvWvW Zerglings were complaining.

best way to balance wvw is, add the pvp gear/runes/sigils system.

remove food buffs.

wvw is so terribly balanced with all those op runes and buffs that i can get bleeding to tick for 170 per stack or apply 8 confusion with 1 skill…

and then start splitting skills depending on the game mode. who cares if it’s confusing as long as it makes the game better….

Although guild wars 2 is a different game entirely, it should be noted that gw1 did have skill splits between pve and pvp, and it worked really, really well to increase build diversity. Hopefully, arenanet can change their mindset around gw2, because as it stands balancing for three game modes will never really work out.
Then again, if arenanet is not aiming for esports and esports is just commercialization, then I can see the curent model working. But then that’s just depressing and brings out cynicalism.

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

lol they were able to do that in the previous game where there was numerous builds per a character but they can’t do it here where there are 2-3 builds MAX per a profession?

That is just complete lazinest combined not giving a rats kitten

Game will never be balanced while Anet forces a broken Skills design system, and aplying filters will result in awfull balance, while that skill system isnt touched game will be a mess.

echo.2053, guardian still has one even so.. was a awfull concept.

This has been discussed plenty of times. Guild wars 1 had split skill balances between pvp and pve and it worked quite good. I dont understand what makes it so difficult to have the same split in gw2. Either way, it doesnt work well to balance the game as a whole because it affects different game modes badly and like earlier people said, we will never get a truly balanced game.

sanctuary.1068:

This has been discussed plenty of times. Guild wars 1 had split skill balances between pvp and pve and it worked quite good. I dont understand what makes it so difficult to have the same split in gw2. Either way, it doesnt work well to balance the game as a whole because it affects different game modes badly and like earlier people said, we will never get a truly balanced game.

Because anet is not prolific. You see the content we have for 4 years? we do not even have LS this time.

4/16 Legendary weapons? LOL

This is a very primitive rebuttal by Countless. IMO, both Anet and Countless are wrong. One thinks it’s important to consider everything and the other thinks it’s impossible, but they are both exaggerating.

Each profession is given tons of different options in terms of traits/gear/weapons/amulets/runes/etc. They are also given options in all three game modes for who they team up with and how those people spec too. There is very little crossover in builds unless you don’t care about optimizing your performance.

Even in hotjoin, you will see only a few builds suitable for PvP…same is true for PvE…so they’ve already created ‘defacto’ balance by making certain skills/traits/etc totally irrelevant in certain game modes.

Despite the exaggerations by both parties, you can absolutely make changes strictly for PvP since some traits/gear are 100% obvious not meant for things like PvE. Plus, they’ve already made hard code changes to separate game modes when a big problem exist. Thus, Anet requesting people to worry about other game modes when proposing changes is sheer folly and unnecessary.

Looking at Countless argument, he seems to equally think the 3 are interlinked by implying that any “filtering” will corrupt a suggestion. It’s just not true and/or not un-fixable if a major problem exists. Few people are going to make a PvP suggestion that materially impacts PvE, so filtering it through a PvE lens won’t be poor result that Countless implies.

SPESHAL.9106:

This is a very primitive rebuttal by Countless. IMO, both Anet and Countless are wrong. One thinks it’s important to consider everything and the other thinks it’s impossible, but they are both exaggerating.

Each profession is given tons of different options in terms of traits/gear/weapons/amulets/runes/etc. They are also given options in all three game modes for who they team up with and how those people spec too. There is very little crossover in builds unless you don’t care about optimizing your performance.

Even in hotjoin, you will see only a few builds suitable for PvP…same is true for PvE…so they’ve already created ‘defacto’ balance by making certain skills/traits/etc totally irrelevant in certain game modes.

Despite the exaggerations by both parties, you can absolutely make changes strictly for PvP since some traits/gear are 100% obvious not meant for things like PvE. Plus, they’ve already made hard code changes to separate game modes when a big problem exist. Thus, Anet requesting people to worry about other game modes when proposing changes is sheer folly and unnecessary.

Looking at Countless argument, he seems to equally think the 3 are interlinked by implying that any “filtering” will corrupt a suggestion. It’s just not true and/or not un-fixable if a major problem exists. Few people are going to make a PvP suggestion that materially impacts PvE, so filtering it through a PvE lens won’t be poor result that Countless implies.

I dont think you understand the video. Tbh i dont even understand most of your text because its all yidda yadda. One example to mention a bad balance was last year when burn became totally OP in pvp but was quite fine in pve. Now burn is fine in pvp but in pve if you stand in a burn field in dragon stand youre dead in 3 seconds.

I agree with your conclusion but the reasoning used to get there isn’t very well explained imo.

Jekkt.6045:

best way to balance wvw is, add the pvp gear/runes/sigils system.

remove food buffs.

I’m glad to see someone else can see the light. Unfortunately, I believe we are in the minority with this view.

It would make small groups fights ten times more balanced and fun, and large group fights would need to put a little more effort into winning, which isn’t a bad thing. Massive zergs will still be able to steamroll smaller groups and roamers would have a much more entertaining time fighting equal skilled players.

I know WvW is supposed to be this unfair unbalanced warfare kind of deal, but seriously, what is more important here? A realistic war experience or balanced (and more fun) large scale combat? Also, if WvW is really supposed to be balanced, why does each world get an identical map? Why does each world follow the same rules and have access to the same siege gear? They want it to be unfair, but add in balanced world mechanics.

Anet needs to make a decision. Is it a game to enjoy (my preferred option) or a simulator to experience war in?

Using the PvP gearing system would make WvW combat a lot more fun, I am certain of it. Not only that, but if new players could quickly jump into WvW on equal footing to everyone else (just like in PvP) I bet your bottom dollar more people would play WvW. I understand that kind of change would probably require a lot of effort on Anet’s part, but I do believe it would be worth while. The only players it would negatively impact are those unskilled few who enjoy beating on weaker opponents with their top tier gear and buffs.

Rin.1046, actually i would prefer to see cleave and aoe skills number reduced across all 3 gamemode, would be fun to see players need to know how to spike and gank well, knowing wich target needs to be atacked, w/o leeching from all the aoe/cealve extra damage floating arround.
Imagine staff ele now with a good aoe spells that hit more than 5 and has a bigger radios, since there less skill spam and less calcs server side some skills could be improved.

echo.2053:

Chaith.8256:

ArenaNet is very adamant that skill splits are too much work to be possible.

lol they were able to do that in the previous game where there was numerous builds per a character but they can’t do it here where there are 2-3 builds MAX per a profession?

how many new games do you know that actually kept, to a T, the same builds/weapons/items/mechanics from it’s predecessor? You can rule out almost every MMO game.

Anet has a very different mindset “and newer faces” presently, than it did in GW1

Saiyan.1704, one big rule is, never change what works :], improve it but dont get out from its conceptif it works.

Anet already have split some skills. Revealed was 4 seconds in PvP and 3 seconds in PvE/WvW. Runes of the Monk and other boon duration runes were 10% in PvP and 15% everywhere else. Dhuumfire used to be 4 seconds of burn on crit in PvE/WvW and 2 seconds in PvP. They just don’t want to commit.

Good find Countless. Most of pvp players don’t watch that stream where they talk about dungeons and world bosses.

It’s kind of stupid that pvp players have to follow pve meta and think how it will affect it. The other day there was post on reddit where guys did raid with green gear so pve cant be that hard.

Also as I remember confusion changes were implemented coz pve boys complained about it and it did effect pvp balance.