Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Soa Cirri.6012

Soa Cirri.6012

(Of the victims)

Everything under the sun has been said about Leagues, and how the level of entertainment it provides ranges between watching a child who refuses to blow their nose insist on rambling at you, an inch from your face, with a glisten trailing down their lip, and the sensation of nails scratching against a chalkboard while you beat your head against said chalkboard.

The mechanical problems of divisions, pips, MMR, class (im)balance, etc, have been detailed and reiterated and seconded and third-ed and forty-fourth-ed. So I’m not gonna discuss that.

I’m no expert really. I have some remarks and suggestions but it’s possible there are major holes in them I haven’t noticed.

But something has really struck me about leagues: how its dynamics of reward and punishment reward dishonorable behavior and punish honorable behavior, in such a way as to specifically cultivate feelings of distrust and dissatisfaction among honorable players, and do disservice to dishonorable ones by denying them any right to a reputation of preeminence even upon achieving victory.

I’ll explain.

Reward and Punishment

The pip system awards or detracts between 0 and 3 pips. According to the system as it is now, and as it seems to have been intended by design, how do you gain pips (reward)?

You can gain pips by beating an equal or “superior” team.
You can gain pips by losing to a “superior” team.

How do you lose pips (punishment)?

You can lose pips by beating a “superior” team (in numbers, if you have a DC)
You can lose pips by losing to another team.

How do you gain/lose zero pips (neither reward nor punishment)?

You can gain zero pips by beating an “inferior” team.
You can lose zero pips by losing against a “superior” team.

Do you notice a pattern here? With every match, the possibility of reward or punishment is completely inconsistent with your level of ability. It’s just as much determined by circumstances beyond your control. As one player you cannot control:
What team you are paired against (superior or inferior, determining whether you stand to gain reward without punishment, or punishment without reward)
What members of your team disconnect
And outside of a full party, you cannot influence in any way the level of ability of your other teammates (even in a party, you are completely at the mercy of others’ skills).

In this system, a player or group of players engaged in the leagues, playing as it is meant to be played, from the beginning, soloQ or with a group of people they know, are at a severe disadvantage. They might gain pips, lose pips, or gain/lose nothing at all. For playing consistently, they can receive a completely inconsistent set of rewards, punishments, and non-reward/punishments.

However, one way to achieve certainty is to put yourself in a position of dishonor, by confusing the system itself, via throwing games or by including lower-ranked people in your party.

By this means you can reliably face groups with a lower skill level than your own while being considered “equal” by the MMR system, guaranteeing a pip gain in the event of a win. This is obviously a superior course to the honorable, “intended” reward/punishment system which is completely inconsistent.

Incidentally, the practice of inconsistently rewarding or punishing the same behavior is a tactic employed in methods of mind control. Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part (or at least I hope it isn’t), but this tactic is used to generate feelings of inferiority, hopelessness, and self doubt.

I’m not sure what is intended by the pip system, but regardless of the intentions, it is clearly generating the emotions produced by similar systems used elsewhere. Levels of dissatisfaction, frustration, and discontent are very high.

But, I mean, come on. This is a kittening videogame. This is playable content that is advertised to everyone, loudly and repeatedly. Why is it set up in this way?

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Soa Cirri.6012

Soa Cirri.6012

Validation vs Invalidation

Let’s say you have a balls-to-the-wall, knock-down, drag-out match that’s neck and neck the entire time. Through the heroic act/sacrifice/last-minute-skill-use of yourself or a fellow player you narrowly manage to snag the win.

This, I assume, is meant to be the height of the PvP experience, with an emphasis on ‘experience.’ Something that is intense, and fun, and harrowing and exciting.

For that experience you gain a pip. But that is not just a pip… that is a notch on your belt, a mark of victory a form… of validation.

You deserve that pip. That pip is a signifier that you have validated yourself under trying circumstances.

However, the system doesn’t care. It may pit you in the next match against four diamonds and an emerald who are farming lower-MMR groups for profit, and they whip you 500-30.

Not only have you lost that pip, you’ve lost all of the significance it stood for. Your entire experience has been invalidated by removing what it has earned you from existence.

Until now, and to my understanding, invalidating player experience is the opposite of what GW2 has tried to achieve. It proclaimed this standard early on by introducing instanced loot, where there is no punishment, only reward, and your dedication and skill are demonstrated by the amount and kind of rewards you have amassed, rather than whether you have them at all.

Incentivizing behavior via rewards generally creates more happy, functional children/workers/players than by alternating reward and punishment (inconsistently).

Looking at the state of PvP I see very little happiness or functionality. I see frustration, anger, discontent, distrust, and general malaise. People are quick to point fingers, call others out, and spread blame.

Many of these people will leave. I am already losing friends to this system. If it is the intention of the game’s developers to not only draw in, but keep, its player base, effort needs to be made to assure these players that only honorable behavior will be incentivized, and that great experiences will be validated.

Suggestions

Do not subtract pips, but reward them more sparingly.

Which of these two scenarios is more deserving of a pip?
1. Beating a scrub PUG team with your training-since-release pre-made
2. Beating a training-since-release premade with your scrub PUG

Since pips signify achievement, why should they ever be robbed from players, except by the commitment of gross infraction? A means of linear progression which validates every player achievement and provides predefined rewards should be maintained without the possibility of loss. However, rather than rewarding every win, only “deserving,” i.e. close wins should be rewarded. I think a 100ish gap or less between winner and loser is likely reasonably “close” enough to merit a pip.

What does this mean? Well for one thing, pro teams will gain no pips for farming lower-ranked players. It is logistically much more difficult to engineer a close win than a complete wash, making for a greater risk of actual loss, which is a chance not worth taking. Because even if “loss” is not punished with pips, it brings me to the next suggestion…

Separate pips from tiers
If pips signify your investment, tiers should signify actual skill. Rather than gaining or losing tiers based upon pips, gaining and losing tiers should depend upon win and loss streaks proportional to the division.

For example, in sapphire, it may take only three wins to gain a tier, and five consecutive losses to drop a tier. However, in diamond it would take five consecutive wins to raise in tier, and only two losses to drop. Of course divisions would form the guaranteed floor and ceiling of each set of tiers.

In such a system, a loss does not become a major setback until it becomes consecutive, rather than having a high likelihood of being an immediate invalidation of previous play.

By separating tiers from pips in this way, super pro teams would raise through divisions quickly, good teams would progress moderately, and bad teams would barely progress at all. However, all would have a means of gaining the same pips (in-game rewards) over time if they fought people of their skill level or better and won.

Now at first, pro teams could farm low levels to progress. But by locking most in-game rewards behind pips rather than tiers and divisions, they would only gain in tier and division ranking, pushing them higher into the leagues and bringing them closer to the real top prize of $x00,000. If they really wanted in-game rewards, the incentive would be to fight players closer to their own skill level, increasing the likelihood of getting a pip if they win.

I dunno, that’s just off the top of my head.

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Incidentally, the practice of inconsistently rewarding or punishing the same behavior is a tactic employed in methods of mind control. Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part (or at least I hope it isn’t), but this tactic is used to generate feelings of inferiority, hopelessness, and self doubt.

I had a giggle at this.

Just make friends and play with a team dude. There are four potential friends on your team every game you play.

They’ve already said that people they catch matchfixing to try to abuse MMR will be banned.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

I dunno, that’s just off the top of my head.

I read the whole thing (forum text walls are usualy trash) and would like to subscribe to your magazine.

Anet, let’s do what this guy said for the reasons outlined above.

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: SarcasticSeer.9152

SarcasticSeer.9152

Incidentally, the practice of inconsistently rewarding or punishing the same behavior is a tactic employed in methods of mind control. Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part (or at least I hope it isn’t), but this tactic is used to generate feelings of inferiority, hopelessness, and self doubt.

I had a giggle at this.

Just make friends and play with a team dude. There are four potential friends on your team every game you play.

They’ve already said that people they catch matchfixing to try to abuse MMR will be banned.

Would it be possible for you to offer some manner of response to the other aspects in his post? I trust that you read it, but I’m curious whether or not you contest this specific point or to the overall thesis posed here. If the latter; what qualms do you raise with the thesis?

(edited by SarcasticSeer.9152)

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Drayos.8759

Drayos.8759

Incidentally, the practice of inconsistently rewarding or punishing the same behavior is a tactic employed in methods of mind control. Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part (or at least I hope it isn’t), but this tactic is used to generate feelings of inferiority, hopelessness, and self doubt.

I had a giggle at this.

Just make friends and play with a team dude. There are four potential friends on your team every game you play.

They’ve already said that people they catch matchfixing to try to abuse MMR will be banned.

yeah cause this pip farm has really made the community forgiving and welcoming.

have you played SPVP in solo queue?… people are afking because they deem what a player did as a mistake, Flame wars are going riot and nobody gives a rats kitten about the next player.

there are maybe a handful of potiental friends…. over a Days SPVP, they just lob “PVER” as a insult at any player then consider themselves better then and if u disbute or disagree with anything they state they block u instantiously in the claims that your clearly wrong.

its no longer a welcoming community, people want these pips faster so they’re raging out at the players in their teams when they lose or feel like they’re having to carry players weather they’re thought process is correct or incorrect.

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Would it be possible for you to offer some manner of response to the other aspects in his post? I trust that you read it, but I’m curious whether or not you contest this specific point or to the overall thesis posed here. If the latter; what qualms do you raise with the thesis?

I’m not really contesting anything so much as I’m laughing.

I mean, ANet is trying to mind control you by manipulating the pip system for ranked matchmaking? Bit silly.

have you played SPVP in solo queue?… people are afking because they deem what a player did as a mistake, Flame wars are going riot and nobody gives a rats kitten about the next player.

Yes I have played sPvP as a solo queuer. I’ve done basically what I’ve suggested other people do. I wouldn’t suggest it if I didn’t do it myself.

there are maybe a handful of potiental friends…. over a Days SPVP, they just lob “PVER” as a insult at any player then consider themselves better then and if u disbute or disagree with anything they state they block u instantiously in the claims that your clearly wrong.

I have not experienced this at all.

its no longer a welcoming community, people want these pips faster so they’re raging out at the players in their teams when they lose or feel like they’re having to carry players weather they’re thought process is correct or incorrect.

This seems to be the exception rather than the rule in my experience. I have a hard time believing that every single game is soaked with people who absolutely refuse to group with you.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Soa Cirri.6012

Soa Cirri.6012

I mean, ANet is trying to mind control you by manipulating the pip system for ranked matchmaking? Bit silly.

Yeah, it is silly. Hence why I never said that.

What I said was:

Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part

How do you construe me saying “this tactic obviously isn’t deliberate in GW2

as “GW2 is deliberately trying to brainwash us”

??

Edit: Also, I do play in a group, I found a couple random PUGs I liked while soloQing and added a friend to the mix. Now please explain how whether or not I am in a group has anything to do with my post, and while you’re at it, how this fixes the problem with the league rank up system?

(edited by Soa Cirri.6012)

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

I mean, ANet is trying to mind control you by manipulating the pip system for ranked matchmaking? Bit silly.

Yeah, it is silly. Hence why I never said that.

Why bring it up at all

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Soa Cirri.6012

Soa Cirri.6012

Why

Why focus on this one throwaway reference/joke at the exclusion of the entirety of the main argument?

Why ignore my refutation of your insistence on grouping (since I already do it).

Why misread my words and then comment on them with dismissive authority?

Look, if you disagree, that’s fine. But why post at all if you’re not going to contribute to discussion?

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Why

Why focus on this one throwaway reference/joke at the exclusion of the entirety of the main argument?

Why ignore my refutation of your insistence on grouping (since I already do it).

Why misread my words and then comment on them with dismissive authority?

Look, if you disagree, that’s fine. But why post at all if you’re not going to contribute to discussion?

Not an answer to the question.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Crime and Punishment. Nah, only punishment...

in PvP

Posted by: Soa Cirri.6012

Soa Cirri.6012

Why

Why focus on this one throwaway reference/joke at the exclusion of the entirety of the main argument?

Why ignore my refutation of your insistence on grouping (since I already do it).

Why misread my words and then comment on them with dismissive authority?

Look, if you disagree, that’s fine. But why post at all if you’re not going to contribute to discussion?

Not an answer to the question.

I’ll gladly answer a question which is relevant to the point.

Do you deny that an inconsistent alternation of reward and punishment, by its very nature, results in dissatisfaction and discontent (as proven in historical use) or encourages dishonorable behavior? Do you deny that the removal of pips invalidates player experiences? Do you disagree that pips and tiers should be separated?

Because those positions would be relevant.

Also, where’s your answer to my question from several posts ago? Or do I just not deserve one

(edited by Soa Cirri.6012)