Guild Wars 2

I want to give my opinion on this new armor for pvp.

This is a step in the right direction, but not the best way of doing it, and Anet yet again fails to see this. The reason I’m saying this are for multiple reasons.

A) They could’ve taken these new exclusive sets and given people a chance to compete and actually care about winning team ques and maybe so que. This give teams a reason to compete and play without waiting for these extremely elongated tournies like TOL.

B) The other issue with having it exclusively for tournies is, there are a few teams that will consistently win these tournies, or it could even be the same team over, which will even give the top teams not to play anymore after one tourney and wait for another tourney to show up.

You guys have failed to realize there is no reason to log in unless there is a tourney around the corner, and this doesn’t help resolve that issue or get more teams to compete in them. Having an incentive to team que and win should’ve been where your rewards were focused. Having an exclusive armor for tournies and reward tracks is good, but doesn’t really tackle the issue at hand. Still 0 reason to log on and compete everyday.
Maybe there are more plans in this upcoming feature patch and spoke too soon, but until then my opinion stands.

They are having one new set for these tournies in particular and they are having one that is available to all who earn it through progressing through a rewards track. Isn’t that kind of what you’re saying you want, in a way?

And I don’t think you’re right on the.. " there is no reason to log in unless there is a tourney around the corner" anymore. With the newly announced 3 $50k tournaments, do you really think is stops there? Of course not. This is the beginning of progressing into something larger. If that itself is nothing for you to log in for, then this might not be your game.

Because of these big tournaments, there is something to log in for. There’s a reason to practice 5-6 times a week to be the best; because I can bet you that other teams will start doing this because they want to win the prize.

@Mila – There’s only one $50k tournament. The three tournaments they mentioned are qualifier tournaments for the $50k one.

I’m looking forward to seasonal rewards and a ladder system, which they said is on the way. Not everyone is able to make these international events, but would still enjoy having seasons and more game-based incentives for laddering, myself included.

That being said, I’m liking the changes spoiled so far and I’m interested to see what else is in store for this coming feature patch, even if it doesn’t include ladders and seasonal rewards, since I’m sure they’re coming sooner or later.

Ah, ok, there was a lot of discussion about the post and how it’s worded, so I guess that was wrong. Sorry, and thanks for the clarification

Originally “fight for their share of 50,000 USD prize pool at each event” sounded like 150k to me, too.

It is an armor set for the best of the bests. If you are not one of these you don’t deserve it.
Very simple.
There are so many other armor sets in this game that you can use.
Just accept it or practise a lot more and win one of those tourneys.

Reason to log in: Get better and win one of those tourneys to get this nice armor set

tichorum.2415:

They are having one new set for these tournies in particular and they are having one that is available to all who earn it through progressing through a rewards track. Isn’t that kind of what you’re saying you want, in a way?

And I don’t think you’re right on the.. " there is no reason to log in unless there is a tourney around the corner" anymore. With the newly announced 3 $50k tournaments, do you really think is stops there? Of course not. This is the beginning of progressing into something larger. If that itself is nothing for you to log in for, then this might not be your game.

Because of these big tournaments, there is something to log in for. There’s a reason to practice 5-6 times a week to be the best; because I can bet you that other teams will start doing this because they want to win the prize.

I think you are missing the point. Tournaments shouldn’t be the only reason to log in to team que. For the most part its the same teams that will be winning these tournaments. But a lot of teams or newcomers shy away from doing such tournaments because of that. They need other incentive such as rewards for winning and getting better at team que, THEN possibly winning big tournaments.

I don’t mean to sound rude but, the top teams could essentially not play until those tournies are around the corner, and still win…….And that isnt fun. Right now there are very few teams worth fighting everyday and if they don’t log on to team que, there is no reason to play. So if there isn’t any other means to log on before these tournies, then it will be similar to what it is now which is, no top teams queing until the tourney, which is extremely boring.

cymerdown.4103:

@Mila – There’s only one $50k tournament. The three tournaments they mentioned are qualifier tournaments for the $50k one.

I’m looking forward to seasonal rewards and a ladder system, which they said is on the way. Not everyone is able to make these international events, but would still enjoy having seasons and more game-based incentives for laddering, myself included.

That being said, I’m liking the changes spoiled so far and I’m interested to see what else is in store for this coming feature patch, even if it doesn’t include ladders and seasonal rewards, since I’m sure they’re coming sooner or later.

Yeah I said its my opinion until we possibly hear about the other features in this patch.

I would agree to this, but not in the current form. Everyone knows that the leaderboards are a complete mess, and having any rewards tied to them would be a mistake. If they ever start seasons or revamp the leaderboards, then yes there should be rewards and incentives for them. At the moment this is the best choice, best teams get the flashy version of the armor, while everyone else can still get a non-flashy version.

Harbinger.8637:

I would agree to this, but not in the current form. Everyone knows that the leaderboards are a complete mess, and having any rewards tied to them would be a mistake. If they ever start seasons or revamp the leaderboards, then yes there should be rewards and incentives for them. At the moment this is the best choice, best teams get the flashy version of the armor, while everyone else can still get a non-flashy version.

Yeah I agree with you. But thats what I am also saying/implying. They shoudlve used the time to redo the leaderboards and implement some sort of league/ladders that are meaningful to have exclusive items ON TOP of the exclusive tournament items. It would be better if the tournament was just for cash/finishers/some exclusive items, and winning in team ques was for exclusive armor/weapons.

Right now where we stand:

- The same top teams will win these tournies until they get bored of playing gw2 completely.

- Other teams will try but will still probably lose for the most part(not saying this to be mean but its true). The only way to overcome this is to get a plentiful amount of teams to start playing, which leads to the third issue.

- People have zero reason to still team que atm, and learn the game because there is no incentive and even if they do, they will still not have the experience and may shy away because they just get stomped by the top teams, so they end up quitting anyway….So their mentality is, why even bother practicing or entering the tourney when they are going to lose.

If there was a reason for teams to practice everyday outside of tournaments, teams would naturally get better overtime before actually quitting.

Glad to hear this coming from you, Morfeus, since obviously you’re practically in a good position to benefit the most from the current set up that they’ve announced.

I agree with you completely. I think a lot of very good players and teams are going to miss out on rewards for their game type simply because they are not winning these tournaments. I definitely agree that there should be more incentive to play and perform well on a daily basis. Thanks for sharing this with the community and I hope the devs listen.

lilz shorty.1879:

Harbinger.8637:

I would agree to this, but not in the current form. Everyone knows that the leaderboards are a complete mess, and having any rewards tied to them would be a mistake. If they ever start seasons or revamp the leaderboards, then yes there should be rewards and incentives for them. At the moment this is the best choice, best teams get the flashy version of the armor, while everyone else can still get a non-flashy version.

Yeah I agree with you. But thats what I am also saying/implying. They shoudlve used the time to redo the leaderboards and implement some sort of league/ladders that are meaningful to have exclusive items ON TOP of the exclusive tournament items. It would be better if the tournament was just for cash/finishers/some exclusive items, and winning in team ques was for exclusive armor/weapons.

Right now where we stand:

- The same top teams will win these tournies until they get bored of playing gw2 completely.

- Other teams will try but will still probably lose for the most part(not saying this to be mean but its true). The only way to overcome this is to get a plentiful amount of teams to start playing, which leads to the third issue.

- People have zero reason to still team que atm, and learn the game because there is no incentive and even if they do, they will still not have the experience and may shy away because they just get stomped by the top teams, so they end up quitting anyway….So their mentality is, why even bother practicing or entering the tourney when they are going to lose.

If there was a reason for teams to practice everyday outside of tournaments, teams would naturally get better overtime before actually quitting.

You pretty much summed up GW2 pvp since launch. There’s no reason at all to form a team or play team/solo q. Most people would rather just go into hotjoin, and farm rewards there.

Maybe Anet doesn’t have the man power or resources to put into pvp, who knows. All we can hope for is that these ideas are implemented one day. However at least they are heading in the right direction.

Too bad pvp is only conquest

Lux.7169:

Glad to hear this coming from you, Morfeus, since obviously you’re practically in a good position to benefit the most from the current set up that they’ve announced.

I agree with you completely. I think a lot of very good players and teams are going to miss out on rewards for their game type simply because they are not winning these tournaments. I definitely agree that there should be more incentive to play and perform well on a daily basis. Thanks for sharing this with the community and I hope the devs listen.

Thank you for understanding. I want everyone else to have fun and play too lol. It’s no fun if people don’t want to play.

I think as i said in the other thread, there needs to be a middle ground possibly. A set for tournies, but ALSO a set for teamques/solo ques with a good system in place, and then a set for the reward track. That would help a lot.

I don’t understand this assumed entitlement on the behalf of the community. Why is everyone supposed to be able to have equal access to everything with minimal investment? All that does is dilute the value and meaning of winning and ultimately is what destroys the sense of competition. And how can you foster a competitive community without those exclusive rewards (armor sets) and valuable prizes ($50K)?

The reality is not everything is meant to be easy and accessible to everyone. And when they are, they’re typically not worth working or competing for. At some point this community needs to decide what it wants: casual friendly, care-bear PvP where everybody wins (even when afking) or a competitive environment fostered by goals and rewards that are not within easy reach.

Fact: the more exclusive and valuable the prizes the more likely competitive players will be drawn to the game, making it less likely to be dominated by the same familiar faces.

My suggestion to ANet would be to not backdown on this. The mid-level rewards certainly need revamping, and they need to establish a distinct structure to the player hierarchy (ladders/season/in-game leader boards) within the game, but there has to be very big carrots sitting at the end of very long sticks in order to drive players to learn, practice, and compete for these prizes.

my 2c

hackks.3687:

I don’t understand this assumed entitlement on the behalf of the community. Why is everyone supposed to be able to have equal access to everything with minimal investment? All that does is dilute the value and meaning of winning and ultimately is what destroys the sense of competition. And how can you foster a competitive community without those exclusive rewards (armor sets) and valuable prizes ($50K)?

The reality is not everything is meant to be easy and accessible to everyone. And when they are, they’re typically not worth working or competing for. At some point this community needs to decide what it wants: casual friendly, care-bear PvP where everybody wins (even when afking) or a competitive environment fostered by goals and rewards that are not within easy reach.

Fact: the more exclusive and valuable the prizes the more likely competitive players will be drawn to the game, making it less likely to be dominated by the same familiar faces.

My suggestion to ANet would be to not backdown on this. The mid-level rewards certainly need revamping, and they need to establish a distinct structure to the player hierarchy (ladders/season/in-game leader boards) within the game, but there has to be very big carrots sitting at the end of very long sticks in order to drive players to learn, practice, and compete for these prizes.

my 2c

Self entitlement not what I’m trying to exemplify here. What I’m saying is the armor in tournaments is a good idea but does not help where the game fails to begin with. With no community or middle ground teams to compete, the top is very boring and gets frustrating when teams shy away. They may not be as competitive as us by for different reasons. Maybe they find no reason to compete on an everyday basis to get better at a game mode that is underdeveloped….who knows. But we need a way to get teams into the game and that’s what I’m trying to instantiate here.

With these rewards for tournaments, don’t get me wrong I’m happy, but I’m also a realist. People are going look and say, “oh nice……oh but wait! we have no chance at winning. Let’s go practice and team que, oh we get stomped by the top teams.” So they don’t even stay to play to just play the game…….so if that doesn’t exist, how do you even build a community.

Another example:

This might be optimistic but, let’s look at tournament of legends 2. It will most likely be us (who won the first ToL) vs mega or outplayed in the finale. Look at everyone who signed up hoping they had a chance but just get stomped. We already have 2-3 legendaries each. So it’s just kinda lame in the end. And what I’m trying to say here is these teams that sign up hoping to win just don’t play anymore until the next TOL…..
That isn’t how it should be. I want those teams to continue to practice and play ever day and get better but they have no reason to.

I understand what you’re saying but the reality remains that you have to have exclusive and major prizes to attract players who don’t shy away from competition. Otherwise it will remain as you said as just being comprised of you guys, and Megalodong, and Outplayed, etc. i.e the same old faces

I don’t mean to come off as confrontational or whatever. I’m just trying to support the growth of competition within PvP and I see these rewards as a necessity for that growth.

From what I understand of the concerns voiced so far, the issue is the lack of structured rewards below these top end, more exclusive rewards that foster competitive growth at the lower and middle levels. I would argue that there isn’t nearly enough infrastructure within PvP to allow players to have a clear view of their place in hierarchy with reasonable rewards that encourage improving their play and offer a roadmap to the top. These kind of rewards need to come at a cost other than time invested. Because without the midlevel rewards to reinforce this route to the top, it’s only natural that most people would look at the top end rewards as completely out of reach.

Morfeus is right on track. There needs to be a robust and healthy grassroots scene, where people have the incentive to form teams, try their luck in teamQ and try to get better, and eventually perhaps evolve to compete against the team Apexes and Mists of GW2. What we have now, and what the current system promotes, is that the already established teams will most likely reap the rewards while the newbies are left with little to no reason to compete. This is why we need ladders and seasons with appropriate awards, leading to end-of-season tournies and so forth. The magic word is infrastructure, which is one of the many things that has been lacking since day one.

Why do you guys think PZ, Team Paradigm or the dozens of other teams left the game? That’s right, no incentive to stay together and play other than for funzies. And funzies only gets you so far before the fickle mind wanders to pastures greener.

It all starts with incentivising the little people and providing venues for growth. Fix pls.

Edit: I forgot to add, the $150k prize pool + New exclusive armors are nice. However, once the initial hype dies down, new interested players that you’ve attracted will run into the same problems we’ve had since launch (listed below).

Here is a simple experiment for everyone that reads this:
How many NEW faces have you consistently seen in competitive team queues this year?

In NA, I can maybe think of 10-15? This doesn’t count returning players (barely any)

How many familiar faces have quit Gw2 PvP?

Almost the same amount.

This illustrates the failure to attract and retain players to grow a competitive player base.
Mid-level rewards would be a good way to start like it has been suggested in the thread.

However, I would argue that is an mmo way of thinking. Gw2 PvP is not an mmo in that the mindset of a PvP player is focused on competition and improving, rather than virtual rewards. We all would have long quit by now if that were the case based on the little rewards that are available. Sure PvE players show up to ToL, but they get their llamas and they’re done. Not to say, carrots aren’t a good way to convert some PvE’ers or MMO players to try PvP; it’s just not effective in sustaining and growing a pvp community.

Improving and Competition. The real motivators for pvp players. The most fun you can have in this game are those close 499-500 games. Too bad

Think of a new incoming pvp player. Assuming that they persevere through the miserable learning period of the non-tutorial, hot joins, solo queue, 4v5’s, skyhammer, cheese builds, etc. Against all odds, if they make it to the point of forming a team for teamq’s and tournaments, three things happen:
70% of the time: they get stomped by the teams that have 2 years experience + are always queueing.
15% of the time: Matchmaking comes into play: so it can match you with the 1 or 2 other new teams that happen to be playing at the same time. Get used to it, you might play with them 7 times a day.
15% of the time: You play total newbies that you wipe easily. Gets old really fast.

It’s a chicken and egg problem. You need a large enough playerbase in order for matchmaking to setup games with equally skilled teams and with enough variety of teams. You can’t retain a playerbase because matchmaking can’t work without a playerbase.

I suggest artificial matchmaking: i.e. tournaments restricting top players so that new teams have a chance to experience winning or even making it to the finals. We can think about leagues once we have a playerbase to support a proper league. Pump some money into Mistleague or DPS to set these up.

P.S. Also pay them to set up tournaments in China…. they still have hope there, and with some nurturing, it might work out over there.

hackks.3687:

I understand what you’re saying but the reality remains that you have to have exclusive and major prizes to attract players who don’t shy away from competition. Otherwise it will remain as you said as just being comprised of you guys, and Megalodong, and Outplayed, etc. i.e the same old faces

I don’t mean to come off as confrontational or whatever. I’m just trying to support the growth of competition within PvP and I see these rewards as a necessity for that growth.

From what I understand of the concerns voiced so far, the issue is the lack of structured rewards below these top end, more exclusive rewards that foster competitive growth at the lower and middle levels. I would argue that there isn’t nearly enough infrastructure within PvP to allow players to have a clear view of their place in hierarchy with reasonable rewards that encourage improving their play and offer a roadmap to the top. These kind of rewards need to come at a cost other than time invested. Because without the midlevel rewards to reinforce this route to the top, it’s only natural that most people would look at the top end rewards as completely out of reach.

Ok I respect your opinion and agree with you. I’m not saying for them to stop with the rewards at the top level. What im saying is there has been for rewards for us for a while even if it is just gems. And now they are finally adding stuff worthwhile. But atm it’s same teams so we need more teams.

The other issue I’m trying to address is, it’s boring waiting for these elongated tournies when you know who’s going to be in the finals anyway. So what’s the false hype for? Why not also give us something to log on to play for as top players. The issue is we too don’t even play the game until a tourney comes around or any other team, and that’s not good for the game either.

SeasonedBro.3849:

Edit: I forgot to add, the $150k prize pool + New exclusive armors are nice. However, once the initial hype dies down, new interested players that you’ve attracted will run into the same problems we’ve had since launch (listed below).

Here is a simple experiment for everyone that reads this:
How many NEW faces have you consistently seen in competitive team queues this year?

In NA, I can maybe think of 10-15? This doesn’t count returning players (barely any)

How many familiar faces have quit Gw2 PvP?

Almost the same amount.

This illustrates the failure to attract and retain players to grow a competitive player base.
Mid-level rewards would be a good way to start like it has been suggested in the thread.

However, I would argue that is an mmo way of thinking. Gw2 PvP is not an mmo in that the mindset of a PvP player is focused on competition and improving, rather than virtual rewards. We all would have long quit by now if that were the case based on the little rewards that are available. Sure PvE players show up to ToL, but they get their llamas and they’re done. Not to say, carrots aren’t a good way to convert some PvE’ers or MMO players to try PvP; it’s just not effective in sustaining and growing a pvp community.

Improving and Competition. The real motivators for pvp players. The most fun you can have in this game are those close 499-500 games. Too bad

Think of a new incoming pvp player. Assuming that they persevere through the miserable learning period of the non-tutorial, hot joins, solo queue, 4v5’s, skyhammer, cheese builds, etc. Against all odds, if they make it to the point of forming a team for teamq’s and tournaments, three things happen:
70% of the time: they get stomped by the teams that have 2 years experience + are always queueing.
15% of the time: Matchmaking comes into play: so it can match you with the 1 or 2 other new teams that happen to be playing at the same time. Get used to it, you might play with them 7 times a day.
15% of the time: You play total newbies that you wipe easily. Gets old really fast.

It’s a chicken and egg problem. You need a large enough playerbase in order for matchmaking to setup games with equally skilled teams and with enough variety of teams. You can’t retain a playerbase because matchmaking can’t work without a playerbase.

I suggest artificial matchmaking: i.e. tournaments restricting top players so that new teams have a chance to experience winning or even making it to the finals. We can think about leagues once we have a playerbase to support a proper league. Pump some money into Mistleague or DPS to set these up.

P.S. Also pay them to set up tournaments in China…. they still have hope there, and with some nurturing, it might work out over there.

I agree with you in terms of they need to improve the playerbase. But gw2 pvp is in an MMO game so virtual rewards are needed to build the community. Problem is, ANET messed up from the start by having to many irrational barriers of entry, so the community was never able to flourish like it could’ve. So now they essentially have to work backward to achieve a flourishing community.

Again and again, the solution is the usual: a ladder with position tied to single guilds, exactly as it was in GW1 GvG.

We didn’t have that many rewards, even for the top teams, but all players were playing just for the sake of playing and trying to climb the ladder. And top teams were playing a lot the same (War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, Reno, and a lot that I’m forgetting at the moment).

So: ladder, ladder, ladder.

Galandil.9641:

Again and again, the solution is the usual: a ladder with position tied to single guilds, exactly as it was in GW1 GvG.

We didn’t have that many rewards, even for the top teams, but all players were playing just for the sake of playing and trying to climb the ladder. And top teams were playing a lot the same (War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, Reno, and a lot that I’m forgetting at the moment).

So: ladder, ladder, ladder.

Yep and the top guilds 1-100 had ways of showing exclusivity by just pvping as well. Trimmed capes…..Gold, silver and bronze.

lilz shorty.1879:

Yep and the top guilds 1-100 had ways of showing exclusivity by just pvping as well. Trimmed capes…..Gold, silver and bronze.

My main point is that rewards (of any kind) should be consequent (and only consequent) to a well designed ladder system. If we don’t have the latter, it will always be a mess, with bad matchmaking (no one has fun in steamrolling/being steamrolled when paired to a team which is far away in points from his/her).

Trying to address a team ladder with personal scores is always bad, so we should have a teamQ with a ladder, with positions tied to guilds, and soloQ with scores based on single characters.

It wasn’t that hard to gather a group of 8 players in GW1, why should be a problem to gather only 5 players in GW2 to enter a teamQ match?

The game needs ladders/seasons, something like that. With the current population it might not be ideal, but it’ll pull in quite a few players. It offers the best incentive, gradual progression and a well balanced time/skill-gated rewardsystem.

There’s just a big discrepancy between time-gated rewards and skill-gated rewards. One armor for just farming, one armor for competing in high-end tournaments. The latter is a skill-gate but it also takes a great effort. Not everyone wants to participate in those as they tend to take a lot of time, etc. etc.

The reward system also works as an incentive. Now there’s little incentive as you can just farm one set. The other set will for lots of people seem unobtainable or not worth the effort.

I agree with most of you, seasons, ladders and rewards linked are absolutly essential for a good pvp scene.

Without a progression system, a pvp scene can’t survive and grow.

Finally someone at the top with some sense!!! I am by no means a top player I will admit I suck. But as someone tht has played many different games over the years I feel I can weigh in here.
The problem with gw2 pvp is that their had never been any incentive to keep going. I don’t mind losing to a good team who is clearly better than me but it hurts a little less to get some kind of reward or atleast build towards one. It’s called a goal. In life you have obstacles and overcoming them is a great feeling, one could call a reward. If I were on a team that beat a very good team, I would feel good but really have no other benefit than that. There is nothing to work towards or even a goal to set. I don’t want pve rewards because I only pvp. I don’t want gold because gold will only transfer to gems, and I already pretty much everything I want on the gemstore.
Overall more goals for all tiers of players is a very good thing. Atleast this is one step in the right direction I guess.

I just wanted to fly by and gave some of my sentiments, since I was really outspoken in the other thread about this topic… Let me make one thing really clear though, I am not a professional PvP-er, if anything I am one of the worst…

Despite of my tone there, Morfeus, you are absolutely right… There should be several reasons for teams to participate other than getting good and getting the “only price available” – because face it, that is how it is…
However, this does not mean that the current implementation of the rewards is at fault, something you have found out in this thread as well…

The Glorious Heroes’ set should never be changed, because it shows a level of dedication and peformance… This does not mean however that it can be alongside another reward in the form of titles, skins and whatnot, as long as the Glorious Heroes’ set is exclusive…

I also made a point of this being the first step, and that is, imho, how you should view it… It is rather obvious that Anet struggles with the implementation of good endgame rewards on all levels of the game (Because honestly, what is not RNG bound in PvE and shows prestige?), yet this is a start… A start we should embrace because for the same deal we could’ve just smacked eachother with our Twilights and Sunrises over and over…

What is going to be given is good, and no one has the right to lift their fingers in their self-entitlement to take it away from the people who “deserve” it… However, this does not mean this should be the end of it because we need teams to want to play more…
The normal Glorious Armour set was probably the best way to do so… Everyone knows that Reward Tracks are extremely easy to complete – hell, you can lose your way and still get the rewards… This is something that should’ve been different imho. It should’ve been a track where you were rewarded for winning, or climbing a (working) leaderboard, not for simply participating… Ranks are the exact same way, I know someone who freaking lost his way up to Rank 80, and that really kittenes me off…

However, for these kind of “rewards” to be implemented, we need a “working system” first, where team progression can be shown (Leagues, Ladders, Tacos w/e) – after this we can try and talk about rewarding wins again, because I do not feel victorious after stomping a team who had clearly no idea of how to play…