Guild Wars 2

Remove stability and aegis from lyssa and make it a 60-90sec cd.

also

Remove the ability to use evade abilities while immobalized.

lyssa is just way to strong to be a rune, or buff every rune set to lyssa’s level of strength

>_>

not sure about it. u lose a lot of dmg as well crit dmg / condi dmg

Vuh.1328:

Remove stability and aegis from lyssa and make it a 60-90sec cd.

also

Remove the ability to use evade abilities while immobalized.

lyssa is just way to strong to be a rune, or buff every rune set to lyssa’s level of strength

>_>

Try “Nerf a thief again mimimi OP withdraw perm roll free win” is more effective.

Why would i try that? I dont think thief is very (if at all) is op.

Lyssa runes are however. Especially with sub 60sec cd elites

You’re basically arguing that a runeset with 1 good effect out of 6 (as opposed to other runesets players take, which usually have 4-6 good effects) should be nerfed.

• Precision is a fairly low value stat. Power is in most cases more valuable for a Power/crit spec, and does little for Condi specs.

• 10% longer condition duration is nigh useless for power/crit specs (which is where you see Lyssa’s most often)

• A random boon on heal is just that – random. Sometimes it will be useful, other times it will be completely worthless. Arguing that this aspect needs a nerf is like arguing that the thief trait Improvisation is broken because once in a while it will refresh a fight-changing utility.

• Adding a secondary function to your elite skills means you likely won’t get the full benefit of all the effects when used or just one of them. If you’re activating your elite for the boons, its possible your elite will not be used to its fullest effect. Same goes for using your elite to clear condis, or using your elite for the actual elite. This limits how useful the 6 piece effect can be. There will be some instances when you use your elite at just the right time to get the most effect out of the condi cleanse, the boons, AND your elite skill, but they won’t be often.

• The boons last for 5 seconds – that’s not exactly an eternity.

Maybe an ICD increase to 60s is justified (it’d only really impact thief) – I’m not really on either side of that argument. Suggesting anything else be changed would bring Lyssa’s far below the power level of nearly every other runeset.

Vuh.1328:

Why would i try that? I dont think thief is very (if at all) is op.

Lyssa runes are however. Especially with sub 60sec cd elites

You’re advocating a thief nerf whether or not you mean to – the only sub 60s elite commonly used with Lyssa’s is BV. I don’t see many warriors running Signet Mastery, and I don’t see many MM Necro’s running Lyssa’s (though perhaps I just haven’t seen it)

evilapprentice.6379:

You’re basically arguing that a runeset with 1 good effect out of 6 (as opposed to other runesets players take, which usually have 4-6 good effects) should be nerfed.

• Precision is a fairly low value stat. Power is in most cases more valuable for a Power/crit spec, and does little for Condi specs.

• 10% longer condition duration is nigh useless for power/crit specs (which is where you see Lyssa’s most often)

• A random boon on heal is just that – random. Sometimes it will be useful, other times it will be completely worthless. Arguing that this aspect needs a nerf is like arguing that the thief trait Improvisation is broken because once in a while it will refresh a fight-changing utility.

• Adding a secondary function to your elite skills means you likely won’t get the full benefit of all the effects when used or just one of them. If you’re activating your elite for the boons, its possible your elite will not be used to its fullest effect. Same goes for using your elite to clear condis, or using your elite for the actual elite. This limits how useful the 6 piece effect can be. There will be some instances when you use your elite at just the right time to get the most effect out of the condi cleanse, the boons, AND your elite skill, but they won’t be often.

• The boons last for 5 seconds – that’s not exactly an eternity.

Maybe an ICD increase to 60s is justified (it’d only really impact thief) – I’m not really on either side of that argument. Suggesting anything else be changed would bring Lyssa’s far below the power level of nearly every other runeset.

Took all the words right out of my mouth. I play a Mesmer and use lyssa, It is my favorite rune in the game, simply because of all the ways I can use it(Whether it be a condi clear, an all in attempt or just to stealth past a possible bad situation). But in reality if I’m a condi Mesmer, lyssa reduces a lot of condi damage I could be getting from another rune like nightmare. If I’m a zerker Mesmer, lyssa reduces the potential dmg I could be getting with say ogre’s or scholar. The heal boon is completely random to every since of the word. I spam my heal to just see what boon it gives me, sometimes it gives me just what I need them some times “useless”. Seriously random boon. But it gives precision which I like for my duelists, and decent condi duration with which by the way just goes well with any kind of Mesmer. Nerfing the rune isn’t needed, The Cooldown is fine where its at. If anything the rune hinders builds of all types and just adds decent survivability on your elite. Nothing else, nothing more. It’s a play style preference, not for everyone. As you can see, for those who like to go all in will choose other runes; nightmare( or 4 nightmare 2 lyssa), ogres or scholar. It comes down to the question do I want that extra little survability this rune has at the cost of possible dmg? But I know at the end of the day my build would be stronger if I didn’t use lyssa. But let’s face it, I love me some random boons.

If you don’t see how removing ALL conditions and giving ALL boons, including stability and aegis is overpowered for a runeset you are blind.
It’s so broken that certain classes(thieves/mesmer) is pretty much depending on them to survive in this “meta”.
Balanceing the classes themself will be ALOT harder with lyssa being in it’s current state.
The effect by it self is stronger than most utilities in the game really.
Even if it gave nothing besides the (6) bonus it would still be worth using.

Even if it had no stability or aegis i’d still use it if it still cleansed condis.

Lyssa is given the “illusion” of being extremely powerful only because Thief has always been strong and Warrior is blatlantly broken. An ICD increase would be enough because the rune is indeed strong, but lyssa should only be nerfed to balance out Warrior and Thief elite cool downs.

Sadly lyssa is needed on thiefs , so if you would increase the ICD or remove it thiefs would really have a problem.

If they really would remove lyssa runes clear all conditions bonus, they must take a look into abilities / professions that are able to insta spam you with nearly all conditions ingame ….

Speaking for thief, you really have not many options to remove conditions, and i doubt this will change in the near future.

There are a lot of really good other runesets, but on certain professions lyssa is the way to go.

Why do you cry about it ?
Because you play a profession with a long cd on elite ?
Perhaps you should play a thief and run it with another runeset – and then come back and tell us how you performed ?

lvis.3824:

Why do you cry about it ?
Because you play a profession with a long cd on elite ?
Perhaps you should play a thief and run it with another runeset – and then come back and tell us how you performed ?

Because one runeset is more powerful than some classes utilities and is adding to the counterless cheese specs dominating pvp, not a good direction to be heading in and needs to go the way of the dodo. God forbid you might have to actually think about how/when to use your elite rather than just blow it asap letting you burst down a target, immune to CC, immune to the most effective boon-strip in the game, immune to the next outgoing attack and giving yourself a full condition cleanse at the same time

Tell me, what is the counter to a burst thief/warrior running lyssa? Corrupt boon leaves up stability, the main offender, blinds get blocked by aegis. Even if you outskill them by dodging BV/Earth shaker they still have 1 failsafe block up and following that can’t be CC’d and can’t be boon stripped fully.

That is too much for a runeset. Too. Much.

Just ride the wave of cheese while it lasts.

azuzephyr.7280:

lvis.3824:

Why do you cry about it ?
Because you play a profession with a long cd on elite ?
Perhaps you should play a thief and run it with another runeset – and then come back and tell us how you performed ?

Because one runeset is more powerful than some classes utilities and is adding to the counterless cheese specs dominating pvp, not a good direction to be heading in and needs to go the way of the dodo. God forbid you might have to actually think about how/when to use your elite rather than just blow it asap letting you burst down a target, immune to CC, immune to the most effective boon-strip in the game, immune to the next outgoing attack and giving yourself a full condition cleanse at the same time

Did unblockable skills and boon strip/steals vanish while I wasn’t looking? Are guardians without counter when they use Aegis or Stability? Does stability grant immunity to immobilize now? Does your class not have access to blocks/immunities/stealth/dodging? If a thief blows BV ASAP, they just wasted BV and the condition cleanse portion of the runes- they took a 6 piece runeset for 5s of boons – there are a dozen runesets that are a better choice when you use it as mindlessly as this.

Tell me, what is the counter to a burst thief/warrior running lyssa? Corrupt boon leaves up stability, the main offender, blinds get blocked by aegis. Even if you outskill them by dodging BV/Earth shaker they still have 1 failsafe block up and following that can’t be CC’d and can’t be boon stripped fully.

Aegis blocks 1 skill – use your blind after the aegis is down. The duration of the boons is 5 seconds – if the thief used their elite at the right time and you can’t buy yourself 5 seconds, well then that player out-skilled you. Instead of taking runes that provide a worthwhile bonus for the entirety of the fight, they took runes that give them a big advantage with a very short up-time – it’s a play style difference. You refuse to acknowledge the weaknesses of the runes, and focus instead on the 5 seconds out of every 45-60s that they’re good and claim they’re too powerful.

That is too much for a runeset. Too. Much.

It really isn’t – you just don’t value the other runesets as highly because you can’t “see” their effects as easily.

Vuh.1328:

If you don’t see how removing ALL conditions and giving ALL boons, including stability and aegis is overpowered for a runeset you are blind.

If you can’t give us a reason as to why you feel this way, it’s hard to have a discussion about it. Perhaps you can address my points, which in summation are basically “Lyssa runes bonuses besides for the 6th are all fairly weak – a runeset that gives you 5s of power every 45-60s is on par with a runeset that gives you stats/abilities that are always useful”.

It’s so broken that certain classes(thieves/mesmer) is pretty much depending on them to survive in this “meta”.

I could survive with ogre runes – I’d do alot more damage too. I choose Lyssa for the flexibility.

Balanceing the classes themself will be ALOT harder with lyssa being in it’s current state.
The effect by it self is stronger than most utilities in the game really.

But it’s not a utility – it’s a runeset. Compare it to another runeset if you’re trying to convince us how OP it is.

Even if it gave nothing besides the (6) bonus it would still be worth using.

Yes, because the other 5/6 abilities are so under-powered, which for some reason you don’t choose to factor in when talking about how useful Lyssa’s are.

evilapprentice.6379

That is too much for a runeset. Too. Much.

It really isn’t – you just don’t value the other runesets as highly because you can’t “see” their effects as easily.

Even thieves and warriors who gain the most benefit from Lyssa runes wouldn’t argue this, people in this very thread are admitting that their class is hinged on this 6piece bonus. This is the best runeset without competition for any class, any role with an elite less than 90 seconds. What you can’t ‘see’ is that burst combos are made so much more forgiving with this runeset, precious time spent removing aegis with a throwaway attack is valuable time that the point assaulter is ripping into you.

No offence but if you had actually played againt lyssa runes or even read this thread thoroughly you would see that the best boon stripping in the game does not counter this. Even in your ‘argument’ you are pointing out that other classes are working 10x harder trying to counter this set as best they can whilst thieves and warriors are gaining another get out of jail free card form their elite.

The only counter to this that has existed was corrupt boon which was nerfed to 5 boons max, that is typically why people suggest that Lyssa be changed to 5 random boons and exempt from stability.

I’d say to you, go play power necro where your best defences are [lol] soft cc with enormous cast times and then tell me that Lyssa runes are balanced. Go.

For the record; ‘outskilled’ and ‘Lyssa’ don’t belong in the same sentence.

azuzephyr.7280:

Even thieves and warriors who gain the most benefit from Lyssa runes wouldn’t argue this, people in this very thread are admitting that their class is hinged on this 6piece bonus.

And I’m on this thread claiming other things – people saying stuff doesn’t make it true.
“Thief P/P is a devastating force in TPvP – Uncounterable!”. See how I just said something that wasn’t true, even if I felt that way?

No offence but if you had actually played againt lyssa runes or even read this thread thoroughly you would see that the best boon stripping in the game does not counter this. Even in your ‘argument’ you are pointing out that other classes are working 10x harder trying to counter this set as best they can whilst thieves and warriors are gaining another get out of jail free card form their elite.

But I have played against Lyssa runes, And read the thread thoroughly – you’re just incorrect. A trickery thief (usually D/P) counters this 100%, and even dazes the target, so your point about it being completely uncounterable is null. You’ll also note I offered other options which you didn’t choose to comment on – when stability stops you from blinding/immobilizing/weakness’ing your target, or prevents you from dodging/stealthing/blocking/using an immune or psuedo-immune skill, then you’ll have a point.

The only counter to this that has existed was corrupt boon which was nerfed to 5 boons max, that is typically why people suggest that Lyssa be changed to 5 random boons and exempt from stability.

See above about D/P trickery thief. It’s hard to understand how you would have missed that, since Both “The Bear document” and “The Ken document” (fairly popular posts on the SPvP forums over the last week) have specifically mentioned nerfing trickery a bit because of how Bountiful theft and SoH work against aegis and stability. If you’re unaware of the existing counters for the runeset, how can you be so confident in your judgement of their power and suggesting changes?

I’d say to you, go play power necro where your best defences are [lol] soft cc with enormous cast times and then tell me that Lyssa runes are balanced. Go.

So 1 spec being countered = OP? Better nerf every class then, because hard and soft counters exist pretty much everywhere. Please note that Engineers, Warriors and Ele’s are also broken in this comparison (and they must be devastatingly broken, seeing as their condition immunities are much longer lasting, and all 3 have access to stability just from their class).

For the record; ‘outskilled’ and ‘Lyssa’ don’t belong in the same sentence.

Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

I’m not going to get into a quote match with someone like you picking examples like they exist in a bubble.

You are right on opinion though, so in fact lets ignore both of our arguments which are based on opinion and look at facts. The fact of the matter is that every single class that can abuse Lyssa, does so, in huge numbers. Numbers support that, If you disagree then call for a poll of who uses what runeset in tpvp and disprove this with facts that show any other rune is even competing with Lyssa on specs with short cooldown elites. Show me that any other runeset is coming even close to being as widely used as Lyssa by any specs, nevermind the typical ones which are almsot built around it. Otherwise your opinion has been noted and filed with the other opinions of the same merit.

And if what you are suggesting is that I should be saving a dodge a weakness, throwaway hit, a blind and a reapplication of conditions for a runeset which requires 1 button to activate and the comparable options to this runeset are things like 5% damage while under the effects of might. Then I think your opinion is showing its ‘merit’ already.

You have to remember that Lyssa runes were born out of desperation. No one used Lyssa runes before the condi meta, and it was the crucial thing to have if warriors were able to kill a necro before zerker stance came out.

As a thief, I didn’t need to use Lyssa runes, but I have to now because of the constant nerf to my class, especially our dazes. Before, I was able to fight a necros/engis just fine because I was able to daze and interupt them…now daze is utter garbage on a thief and thus those classes will be able to put out a lot more pressure and spam more condis. Lyssa is the only way to truly cleanse them.

I would happily never touch Lyssa again and use scholar/ogre runes if it wasn’t so absurdly easy to apply every condition (especially burning) in the game. The condi meta is still at large, and until that gets toned down, Lyssa should not see a nerf. Perhaps condi spams should require more skill instead of spamming everything at once, to bait out lyssa runes?

azuzephyr.7280:

You are right on opinion though, so in fact lets ignore both of our arguments which are based on opinion and look at facts. The fact of the matter is that every single class that can abuse Lyssa, does so, in huge numbers. Numbers support that, If you disagree then call for a poll of who uses what runeset in tpvp and disprove this with facts that show any other rune is even competing with Lyssa on specs with short cooldown elites. Show me that any other runeset is coming even close to being as widely used as Lyssa by any specs, nevermind the typical ones which are almsot built around it. Otherwise your opinion has been noted and filed with the other opinions of the same merit.

The number of fallacious arguments in this paragraph are too long to list – I’ll just link to the wikipedia page on logical fallacies instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies.
Let’s also note you claim the numbers support your facts, then mention that we’d need to take a poll to actually get those numbers – that is logically inconsistent. You’re claiming facts exist based on your undocumented, anecdotal observations and personal bias, which make them specifically not facts.

And if what you are suggesting is that I should be saving a dodge a weakness, throwaway hit, a blind and a reapplication of conditions for a runeset which requires 1 button to activate and the comparable options to this runeset are things like 5% damage while under the effects of might. Then I think your opinion is showing its ‘merit’ already.

Don’t blow your entire wad the second you see an enemy and you should have options. This would be like a thief complaining that blocks are too powerful because they spent all their init as fast as possible when they saw a target rather than making intelligent decisions and accurately judging how long the fight would go. You also keep failing to compare the other 5 set bonuses for runes – either you’re aware it weakens your argument, or you just don’t care.

when a thief uses BV with lyssa runes he enters god mode. Thieves are balanced by having mediocre condition removal, and by not having access to stab/protection/aegis.
Thieves are already “hard to catch” especially if they’re playing s/d.
if an s/d thief uses BV with lyssa you have no counter except dodging for your life.
Warrios already have high access to stab and cond removal and shouldn’t be able to be even more unstoppable.
Guard using lyssa is ok since the class is not already OP, and the shortest cd elite is 90s.
necro/mesmer with lyssa could also be strong but I never felt like it’s OP on them.

DanSH.6143:

when a thief uses BV with lyssa runes he enters god mode. Thieves are balanced by having mediocre condition removal, and by not having access to stab/protection/aegis.
Thieves are already “hard to catch” especially if they’re playing s/d.
if an s/d thief uses BV with lyssa you have no counter except dodging for your life.

And of course the guarenteed counter I pointed out via trickery thief, and other counters you are unaware of or unwilling to acknowledge.

Warrios already have high access to stab and cond removal and shouldn’t be able to be even more unstoppable.
Guard using lyssa is ok since the class is not already OP, and the shortest cd elite is 90s.
necro/mesmer with lyssa could also be strong but I never felt like it’s OP on them.

This is quickly becoming a miasma of hyperbole, misinformation, personal opinions represented as ironclad fact, and lack of experience. I’ve pretty clearly laid out my opinion – agree or disagree, have fun with it.

Here you go http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=52cadab6e4b08a14ac5cf3e1

In case you didn’t want to vote I gave yours to Rata Sum runes, they’re everywhere with their unseen bonuses, it’s really disgusting

I personally think there just needs to be more stability for several classes or diminishing returns on cc. Fighting say a hammer warrior who almost constantly has a stun or knockback ready to go and only a 5 second stability on my engi with like a 40 second cooldown. It just gets old getting knocked around all over the place.

People complain about chain cc
People complain to remove ways of getting stability

Nothing to see here looks like a perfectly reasonable community to me.