Guild Wars 2

On June 23rd, Arena net completely broke a pretty balanced game and created a monster. Burning is extremely overpowered and even 3 stacks can run through a characters entire health pool if unable to cleanse it. Those of us with Condi cleanses have to run multiple traits or skills to cleanse it off because the classes that can apply it are able to basically apply more once we clear it off completely negating any attempt to force them to battle conventionally.

Thieves basically can fill your bar up with cripples, poisons and bleed stacks up to 35, that wipe out any combat experience at all. I had a thief show me them doing this to a golem in the pvp lobby. Not to mention the fact they can stealth hit you from behind with venom and immobilize to effectively two hit you during a match without even breaking a sweat. I should not have to waste two utility slots just to clean off the 6-8 condis that can be applied during a simple 1v1 with thieves, eles, guards or mesmers.

Conditions dont even take into account the toughness or armor on a person and therefore they completely bypass the only defense to damage coming in. It is true that certain classes needed to be brought into line with some of the others, mainly mesmer and necromancer in pvp but there was no need to completely redo the system and calculations to bring these classes up to par with the rest.

Here lies the issue, Arena net sees nothing wrong and says things are working as intended. I want to invite people to post responses with screenshots of the conditions and the damage done by them so that Arena net can finally own up and admit they broke the game leaving it in a worse state than it was pre June 23rd patch.

1-There is no condition meta.
2-You mention golems so your statement is invalid
3-Bleed and poison are trash conditions even ranger needs additional burn to make it useful
4-You mentioned condition thief…invalid statement
5-Negative 100% of condition damage is game breaking
6-The meta needs a good dose of real boon hate

Only real problem right now is burn but hopefully they should shave some duration and some stacks of some skills.

Yet another misinformed forum warrior.

This is not a condi meta at all when most teams run so much cross cleansing (ele cleansing water, heal turret, power cleanse, pure of voice, settler trooper runes) that condition damage as a dedicated DPS stat is negligable in teamfights. Burn guard has a slight niche in the meta, but it loses to almost any necro build 1v1 and can’t fight so many other things.

The builds that are considered meta pretty much all have adequate condi clear aside from PU shatter mes.

Also you say that necromancer has to be nerfed? I’m pretty sure 90% of this game’s community would disagree with you on that, since so much of the necromancer’s basic weaponsets underperform.

Eles are over the top, but burn spam is only part of that problem. Still, calling this a condi meta is completely shortsighted.

There are a handful of abilities applying more stacks of burning than they probably should. Other than that, conditions are a minor issue, and that’s mostly because clearing them is random.

I don’t really see how you getting 100-0’d by conditions over 5-10 seconds is any different than getting killed by straight burst? I mean… there are quite a few proactive and reactive skills in the game to help mitigate condition burst but very FEW reactive ways to not die to a huge burst spike.

First off, don’t blame actual Condition builds. Aside from Burn Guard, they’re non-existant and useless in teamfights due to D/D Ele stacking and their AoE cleansing and some bunker guards.

If anything, blame specific Celestial builds, because it’s Celestial Builds which have been dealing 90% of condition pressure over the last years.

There’s been no “Condition meta”, but there was and is “Celestial meta”.

It’s.. uh, it’s a troll post, right? I mean, I understand the value of burning and stuff, but that paragraph with the Thief, man…

Yes, this is the sPvP forum but, please do come into WvW and then talk about balancing conditions. The conversation has to be brought in here though since the game is balanced around this mode only. And OP, don’t sweat the negative replies as they more than likely come from condi players. Obviously it’s not in their own self interest to be balanced.

There is no condi meta in sPvP, WTF are you talking about?

I would disagree, the issue should stay in WvW since WvW allows for food buffs, equipment outside of PvP meta (sinister), and other imbalances.

If you would like balances in WvW, then you can enjoy the gear that PvP offers and no use of outside food/buffs. That is where a lot of imbalance comes into play.

As for the condition meta in PvP, as it stands, most condition builds are single issue builds. Trap rangers/thieves are gimmick builds that, once realized, can be played against easily. There really is no condition meta. It’s a burst meta using either A. Power, B. Burning or C. Multiple Condition burst vs a bunker meta with area condition clear/healing. The only issue is that some classes can do both strategies well.

Burning is a problem. Mesmer defense is a problem and thats why people hate pu condition mesmer.
Ele has a bunch of issues.
All need balancing and could be why you think its a condi meta. Its not, people just abuse it cuz its easy mode.

I take 3 skills that clear 2 Condi’s each, and I have zero problems.

L2p

ragnarokda.1805:

I don’t really see how you getting 100-0’d by conditions over 5-10 seconds is any different than getting killed by straight burst? I mean… there are quite a few proactive and reactive skills in the game to help mitigate condition burst but very FEW reactive ways to not die to a huge burst spike.

You miss the main point. In a normal burst, people need to spec with zerker or marauder. That gives them minimal sustain. In condi, they can spec way more defensively and still do insane damage.

Implementation of burn stacking was the single worst decision that ANET has made. That and hiring a balance team that doesn’t balance.

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

I don’t really see how you getting 100-0’d by conditions over 5-10 seconds is any different than getting killed by straight burst? I mean… there are quite a few proactive and reactive skills in the game to help mitigate condition burst but very FEW reactive ways to not die to a huge burst spike.

You miss the main point. In a normal burst, people need to spec with zerker or marauder. That gives them minimal sustain. In condi, they can spec way more defensively and still do insane damage.

Implementation of burn stacking was the single worst decision that ANET has made. That and hiring a balance team that doesn’t balance.

This argument keeps popping it’s false there is ramp up time,cleansing,CC,blind and everything that GW2 combat has. Burn and sometimes confusion are the only good conditions. You didn’t build to counter to conditions did you?? You speced to play your way.

Sagat.3285:

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

I don’t really see how you getting 100-0’d by conditions over 5-10 seconds is any different than getting killed by straight burst? I mean… there are quite a few proactive and reactive skills in the game to help mitigate condition burst but very FEW reactive ways to not die to a huge burst spike.

You miss the main point. In a normal burst, people need to spec with zerker or marauder. That gives them minimal sustain. In condi, they can spec way more defensively and still do insane damage.

Implementation of burn stacking was the single worst decision that ANET has made. That and hiring a balance team that doesn’t balance.

This argument keeps popping it’s false there is ramp up time,cleansing,CC,blind and everything that GW2 combat has. Burn and sometimes confusion are the only good conditions. You didn’t build to counter to conditions did you?? You speced to play your way.

Please read again. You also missed the point. The point is getting spiked by direct damage vs condi damage. Your point is invalid because someone can also avoid direct damage by aegis or dodging. This is just a straight comparison of direct vs condi.

Trying to argue that it isn’t easier to spec defensively with a condi build is also just silly.

This is about as far away from a Condition meta we’ve ever been lol. With the exception of burn guardian, there are no pure condition builds left. Yes, Cele Ele/Necro can output decent conditions but they are more hybrid builds.

Condition Ranger/Engineer are both dead. There is literally no point to playing them in matches stacked with transfer Necros, SA thieves, and Elementalists with extreme amounts of condi clear.

As for complaining about condi thief, lol i dont even

style.6173:

Sagat.3285:

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

I don’t really see how you getting 100-0’d by conditions over 5-10 seconds is any different than getting killed by straight burst? I mean… there are quite a few proactive and reactive skills in the game to help mitigate condition burst but very FEW reactive ways to not die to a huge burst spike.

You miss the main point. In a normal burst, people need to spec with zerker or marauder. That gives them minimal sustain. In condi, they can spec way more defensively and still do insane damage.

Implementation of burn stacking was the single worst decision that ANET has made. That and hiring a balance team that doesn’t balance.

This argument keeps popping it’s false there is ramp up time,cleansing,CC,blind and everything that GW2 combat has. Burn and sometimes confusion are the only good conditions. You didn’t build to counter to conditions did you?? You speced to play your way.

Please read again. You also missed the point. The point is getting spiked by direct damage vs condi damage. Your point is invalid because someone can also avoid direct damage by aegis or dodging. This is just a straight comparison of direct vs condi.

Trying to argue that it isn’t easier to spec defensively with a condi build is also just silly.

The point you don’t see is that getting spiked by direct damage means you lose that much hp instantly, while being spiked by condition damage can mean you only lose 100 health if you cleanse right. Any advantage condition builds have/don’t have is mitigated by the fact that all that damage can be mitigated after its application. It isn’t really easier to spec defensively for most builds either. If anything a lot of condi specs want less defense and more offense (gimme sinister version of maruaders in pvp please).

Also, the fact that barely any condition builds have ever been run in competitive play should tell you something about yourself or at least your opinions. If these builds were “meta” or “OP” they would be taken in all the tournies, but I don’t see many.

atlrising.5134:

I want to invite people to post responses with screenshots of the conditions and the damage done by them so that Arena net can finally own up and admit they broke the game leaving it in a worse state than it was pre June 23rd patch.

Sure thing! Here’s a screenie of my condi damage. Like you and your thief friend, I applied the deadly condis on golems!

style.6173:

Sagat.3285:

style.6173:

ragnarokda.1805:

I don’t really see how you getting 100-0’d by conditions over 5-10 seconds is any different than getting killed by straight burst? I mean… there are quite a few proactive and reactive skills in the game to help mitigate condition burst but very FEW reactive ways to not die to a huge burst spike.

You miss the main point. In a normal burst, people need to spec with zerker or marauder. That gives them minimal sustain. In condi, they can spec way more defensively and still do insane damage.

Implementation of burn stacking was the single worst decision that ANET has made. That and hiring a balance team that doesn’t balance.

This argument keeps popping it’s false there is ramp up time,cleansing,CC,blind and everything that GW2 combat has. Burn and sometimes confusion are the only good conditions. You didn’t build to counter to conditions did you?? You speced to play your way.

Please read again. You also missed the point. The point is getting spiked by direct damage vs condi damage. Your point is invalid because someone can also avoid direct damage by aegis or dodging. This is just a straight comparison of direct vs condi.

Trying to argue that it isn’t easier to spec defensively with a condi build is also just silly.

You do realize that Aegis and dodging also work on condi burst as well right? Most condi damage also has a ramp up time and can be completely negated through cleanses, so condi builds being a little tankier isn’t really an issue. Thieves and Guards do more damage with power builds btw, and have the same if not better survival.

Also, what is this about Necromancers? Does everyone not realize that Necromancers have some of the weakest condi application in the game right now? All that condi damage coming from a necro is either corrupted boons or transferred conditions.

An example, I can totally build my Engi for condi damage with defensive stats and do decent condi bursts. The bursts are useless though when fighting anyone that knows how to time cleanses. On the other side, I can spec for a soldier rifle build, have way more sustain, and still do great burst damage that can not be cleansed as well as decent sustained damage and more cc.

Soooooooo, not really seeing your point here. Sorry.

atlrising.5134:

Thieves basically can fill your bar up with cripples, poisons and bleed stacks up to 35, that wipe out any combat experience at all. I had a thief show me them doing this to a golem in the pvp lobby. Not to mention the fact they can stealth hit you from behind with venom and immobilize to effectively two hit you during a match without even breaking a sweat.

For starters… I hope you realize that a single Thief build can’t accomplish BOTH of those things (and that they’re a little harder to do when you aren’t hitting a target dummy). Thief does not “two shot” people with conditions in SPvP; if you are being bursted then it is most assuredly a Power Thief, not a Condition Thief. Hybrid Thief is not a thing.

More importantly, Thieves are actually quite bad at applying damaging conditions. People tend to assume otherwise because because Thieves are good at applying controlling conditions (cripple, daze, immobilize, weakness, etc), but those are not analogous.

Various reasons as to why Condition Thief is not viable in SPvP:

1> Thief lacks good access to the consistent application of damaging conditions.
Pistol #1 applies a piddling amount of Bleeds—even with Sigil of Earth slotted—and is a badly designed weapon you generally won’t be using as a mainhand in SPvP. The only other weapon skill that applies Bleeds is Dagger #3, and it is extremely clunky and telegraphed in PvP. Dagger #3 also requires Condition Damage to be useful, while the rest of the Dagger skills are sorely Power based.

That leaves Poison and Torment. Thieves are pretty good at applying Poison, but it is used more for its heal reduction, as its damage scales rather poorly at the moment (much like Bleed). Torment is cool, but the only meaningful source of it is P/D #3. As already mentioned, Mainhand Pistol is not so great.
—
2> Thief has no room in its build for traits or utilities that apply conditions.
Unfortunately, Thief has 3 out of 5 skill slots already spoken for in SPvP. Withdraw and Shadowstep are necessary to survive, and Shadow Refuge brings so much in support that you significantly reduce your impact if you take something else. As a result, Trap and Venom skills that you’d think one would want don’t end up making the cut, both because of the aforementioned and also because most aren’t very good.

The same goes for traits… are you going to take junk like Dagger Training instead of Mug, or even a decent trait like Potent Poison instead of Improvisation or EXECUTIONER? No.
—
3> Damaging Thief conditions are easily cleansable.
Thieves are very vulnerable to condition cleansing, which is not something that is hard to find right now. Thief’s damaging conditions don’t stick very well, as it doesn’t output a good amount OR variety of them. Bleed and Poison are on opposing weapon sets, unless you want to run a D/D gimmick build or try to poison someone in a 1v1 with Shortbow #4 (good luck with either). Torment is not available enough, and Burning isn’t something Thief can naturally apply at all.

Even Thief’s vaunted control conditions have gaps. Until DD goes live, Thief application of Weakness could be much better. Same goes for Vulnerability, which should be a Thief specialty, but instead is mostly applied by the laughably bad Body Shot (Pistol #2). To put this in perspective, see the Revenant, which can apply 20+ stacks of Vulnerability faster through autoattacking than a Thief can by blowing all of their Initiative.

The gist of this is that these gaps in the application of control conditions makes Thief’s already lacking damaging conditions even easier to strip.
—
4> Thief has a lack of viable stat packages in SPvP.
We all know that Power builds need a certain amount of Crit (and to a lesser degree, Ferocity) to function well. Many Condition builds also need Crit to be useful, and for Thief this is a problem. Why, you ask?

11k base HP. That’s tied with Elementalist and Guardian as the lowest HP in the game, but those professions have a lot of defensive tools to make up for it. Thieves have to run an amulet with Vitality or Toughness on it, lest they instantly explode when looked at the wrong way in SPvP.

That means Thief needs Power, Condition Damage, and Vitality/Toughness to make a Condition build potentially viable. That mostly leaves Carrion amulet… but then you don’t have any Crit. Take Rabid and you have that Crit, but all of a sudden you do no damage because you have no Power and a lot of Thief’s base damages are surprisingly terrible (especially on Pistol, the weapon you’re mostly forced to use for Condition builds). Seeing any problems yet?

I’m sure that was more words than you wanted to read, but hey… you said a lot of very incorrect things

I think you meant Rabid, but whatever. The point is, only Burn and Confusion can potentially burst you down and many classes are given the possibility to shrug them off without even paying that much attention and therefore annihilating the damage of a condition spammer. Only Necro can potentially work around these defenses but they don’t even pack a punch on their own if they go condition damage. There only would be a condition meta if proper parties weren’t cleansing conditions 150 times per second by accident.

Yeah… I really wish ANet would stop passing out condition cleanses like candy.

Amante.8109:

Yeah… I really wish ANet would stop passing out condition cleanses like candy.

I’m waiting for a condition version of resistance still. I’m wondering where is the common boon hate we need for the meta instead of more of the same how long will it take them to realize that.

atlrising.5134:

On June 23rd, Arena net completely broke a pretty balanced game and created a monster. Burning is extremely overpowered and even 3 stacks can run through a characters entire health pool if unable to cleanse it. Those of us with Condi cleanses have to run multiple traits or skills to cleanse it off because the classes that can apply it are able to basically apply more once we clear it off completely negating any attempt to force them to battle conventionally.

Thieves basically can fill your bar up with cripples, poisons and bleed stacks up to 35, that wipe out any combat experience at all. I had a thief show me them doing this to a golem in the pvp lobby. Not to mention the fact they can stealth hit you from behind with venom and immobilize to effectively two hit you during a match without even breaking a sweat. I should not have to waste two utility slots just to clean off the 6-8 condis that can be applied during a simple 1v1 with thieves, eles, guards or mesmers.

Conditions dont even take into account the toughness or armor on a person and therefore they completely bypass the only defense to damage coming in. It is true that certain classes needed to be brought into line with some of the others, mainly mesmer and necromancer in pvp but there was no need to completely redo the system and calculations to bring these classes up to par with the rest.

Here lies the issue, Arena net sees nothing wrong and says things are working as intended. I want to invite people to post responses with screenshots of the conditions and the damage done by them so that Arena net can finally own up and admit they broke the game leaving it in a worse state than it was pre June 23rd patch.

just out of curiosity, do you by any chance run a full zerker bear bow ranger without a single cleanse, stun break or anything whatsoever other then pew-pew ?

cause i did indeed down a ranger like that the other day, in about 5-10 seconds flat, repeatedly and every single time. he/she was literally among the worst players i have ever seen in this game across all 3 game modes, PvE, sPVP and WvW.

this ranger was so bad it just literally stood inside of feedback while trying to auto attack me with long bow.

so am just wondering if that was you by any chance ?

I mean if your standing in both of my ground effect skills, and Ive been hitting you with super weak scepter shots…eventually that burnings going to get out of control….but I mean this is how a low alpha, damage over time, type of mechanic is suppose to work.

maybe the problem is that its not visible enough when burning or other condi stacks get out of control and need to be dealt with, and when you got an off effect on you that wont do much other than stop you from regenerating. being more visible in this sense might indicate to you better to use that cleanse or whatnot.

There should certainly be a few different classes able to go low alpha, damage over time as a build….maybe the issue is that there are just far too many condi effects going around, off people not built towards them….maybe a set of conditions on your build to make them stick would be needed to ensure that your either built for it in pvp or your not…else they get resisted or something…just for pvp.

didn’t really think it was that out of control but what do I know. loving my heavy armor scepter burn guardian though…never expected this to be how I pvp on this class…pleasantly surprised I can even do it.