Guild Wars 2

Acrobatics has plenty of damage potential cannot agree with you there. Its utility stuff like fleet of foot sins reward and sins retreat that fall short.

The message really isn’t that necro and thief are overpowered, it is the type of gameplay they promote. Neither is the problem completely isolated to these classes. It is a gradient of bad gameplay with necro, thief and ranger sitting at the top. Warrior also has some poor gameplay mechanics but is still much better than the rest.

It is the gameplay, not so much the balance. It is in such a bad place I could probably develop a competitive game that would completely outshine Gw2. And that’s coming from a ergonomics background with no game design experience.

The real direction the game should go is to rework all the instances of mismatched risk reward ratio and counter play. Doing this properly would hit everything balance wise. It really has two steps, establish proper gameplay then focus on the balance implications of those changes and readjust. All this bickering about which team is on the top because of class balance shouldn’t really be the goal nor does it seem the intention of Xeph.

The real question is can Anet overhaul the game to such a degree? From what I have seen in recent changes they are sacrificing good gameplay for quick balance and they aren’t even achieving balance with this approach. Not sure if they have the vision for this sort of project.

Dirame.8521:

swinsk.6410:

Why don’t we all just quit our characters and start playing necros and engis?

Seems like what ANet wants us to do…

I think what Anet wants you to do is find a counter to the meta but apparently we are too busy whining to do that. You want someone in some high ranking team to do the same thing Super Squad did when they ran a Warrior with Battle Standard, or when Teldo went back to playing Flamethrower/Bomb kit. You’re not willing to counter the meta, only willing to complain about it.

Its not that simple Dirame. There is no counter to the amount of AoE condis being spread all over… by the time the warrior tries to get in range of the necro that can simple be nuking everything around him from range, he’ll be down focused by the rest of the team. There are not enough cleanses to sustain that fight till you can make a play and then pressure the necro. Just like Ultima explained there are no real counters to S/D thiefs because they can have a huge amount of survivability throughout evades, best mobility in the game, and on top of that high damage… If it is played properly he’ll pinpoint one important player in the team fight and there is nothing you can do because you if try to focus him he’ll just evade… if you try to CC him to right afterwards burst him you can’t either because he’ll teleport away.

On top of all that there is another thread which shows how kittened non active skills are completely kittening up the game, prime example is the spirit ranger just dancing around not needing to do anything since 70% of his play is passive.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Im not saying necro or s/d isnt op. It is. But so was ele and mesmer for the last 10 months. But now alot of the top teams are crying because suddenly the meta isnt in their favour as much.

You do realize that mesmer’s blurred frenzy had a cooldown added to it, and the pull got an internal cooldown to not instapull people giving reaction time to outplay that? Do you see Xeph or other mesmers kittening about it?

Also if people want to talk about meta. Please for the love of god listen to Battosai:

the problem with the s/d thief though is that it snowballs ridiculously hard – if one of your dps is getting trained by an s/d thief it’s really hard to peel for the guy being trained, he needs to go defensive immediately as he dies otherwise in a few seconds.
thus taking off a lot of pressure from his own team in the teamfight while having a necro spamming marks for the constant aoe pressure – your dps will go down eventually and if you try to go for the thief he’ll just reset while you get eaten alive by conditions.
so if the player that was being trained by the thief now is in down state the thief can just swap target and still have all of his burst/pressure up, due to its design making fights really snowbally as he can just start to train another target that now needs to be on the defensive instantly again.
meanwhile you have a bomb engi just funneling into far that will decap the point eventually and with supply crate up being a really tough match up to take 1v1.
overall the comp is really kitten simple and easy to play – the current meta and the current game is too dumped down skillwise imo.

i have one suggestion that would actually adress 3 of the 4 classes that currently feel kinda mandatory due to their low skill floor ( not saying anything about the skillcap ) is changing the function of the burning traits being dhuumfire, incendiary ammo and the sun spirit burning procc.
add a tooltip icon into the players buff bar ( engis/necroes/players affected by sun spirit) that informs the opposing player that the next attack will procc burning – if he dodges this attack the procc will vanish and trigger the traits icd thus introducing actual counterplay to the mindless condition spam right now.

also s/d thiefs #3 ability is completely flawed in design and broken – it just does way too much while pretty much every other skill in this weaponset pales in comparison.

Off the topic: Does no one find it funny that everyone has already settled that every single competitive team must have a guardian? …

I know everyone has differing opinions regarding the issues at hand, but can we as a community at least come together and create some sort of mission statement that will help A-Net truly understand what the competitive community is wanting.

Mine would go something like "We would like all classes and builds to require management and skill in order to be effective. Whether with conditions, pets, or evades, please create a system where a player has to choose intelligently what to do and when to do it. Also look and listen to the community regarding in-game mechanical bugs and please notify and fix them at a quicker rate (or at least acknowledge the problem). "

Now you try

^^^^

/15 char

me me now !
‘’We would love if u could speed up making all characters roundout balanced (after seeing the community reaction for the bunkers Guardians and Elementalist), and create faster the <<bases>> for any inc new trait-weapon . Also stop wearing that arwful glasses (dont tell me u have to relculate every spec-trait !) . Like gw1 u have to surrender to me and listen to me and balance the game around my comp , dont try to resist !!! U will first ask me , then act and then see the results "’ :P

Support builds are in the lower end of the line ?

revert last patch and bring beta servers

Romek.4201:

revert last patch and bring beta servers

If they could just do that for necro, but keep the #5 deathshroud and give them a ground targeted teleport on their #2 deathshroud. ofc all other buffs and nerfs were good.

This would’ve given necro’s what they needed, a disengage and an engage, which would give them a more interesting play stlye; but still keep them in line.

I know there are people out there with better suggestions then myself; but all I am asking is that Arena Net review this thread, and listen to their community and players when taking balancing decisions.

saVdoom.2067:

Dirame.8521:

swinsk.6410:

Why don’t we all just quit our characters and start playing necros and engis?

Seems like what ANet wants us to do…

I think what Anet wants you to do is find a counter to the meta but apparently we are too busy whining to do that. You want someone in some high ranking team to do the same thing Super Squad did when they ran a Warrior with Battle Standard, or when Teldo went back to playing Flamethrower/Bomb kit. You’re not willing to counter the meta, only willing to complain about it.

Its not that simple Dirame. There is no counter to the amount of AoE condis being spread all over… by the time the warrior tries to get in range of the necro that can simple be nuking everything around him from range, he’ll be down focused by the rest of the team. There are not enough cleanses to sustain that fight till you can make a play and then pressure the necro. Just like Ultima explained there are no real counters to S/D thiefs because they can have a huge amount of survivability throughout evades, best mobility in the game, and on top of that high damage… If it is played properly he’ll pinpoint one important player in the team fight and there is nothing you can do because you if try to focus him he’ll just evade… if you try to CC him to right afterwards burst him you can’t either because he’ll teleport away.

On top of all that there is another thread which shows how kittened non active skills are completely kittening up the game, prime example is the spirit ranger just dancing around not needing to do anything since 70% of his play is passive.

Off the topic: Does no one find it funny that everyone has already settled that every single competitive team must have a guardian? …

I think you’re looking at if from the point that the Warrior is the only one going for the Necro. The Warrior definitely won’t be. The Thief will be on him, the ele would be on him our very own Necro/Engie would be on his tail as well. Even if the Warrior was focused, the Warrior spec I’ve been playing and the Warriors I’ve been playing with are quite beefy and bringing them down takes more than just focus fire. In fact, you could actually send one of these guys to hold a point for a while and they would survive against 3 for more than just a few seconds.

Toss in me and my Burst healing Engy and these guys could survive for quite some time in a team fight.

Dear Anet when no one is looking at the office revert Fs to its original state add the new tracking and put tactical strike to 2 seconds again. Increase the velocity of dancing dagger 10% so we can get some use out of it. If S/D is in a bad state after this change 2 weeks later change boon removal on the original 1st hit to boon steal or add boon steal to the second hit.

Given that
1) reveal is 4s here so the original “daze lock” is not possible
2) prime complaints with fs were tracking and 2nd hit reward
3) its commonly accepted that telegraphs are a better direction for the game and the original fs was well telegraphed. Still S/D was powerful.
4) you literally have a discrepancy between what S/d can do in PVR/wvw with their 2s daze vs PvP. I thought skill splits were not to be alienating.
5) Many loved the original S/D before it was nerfed with no closure as to why.
6) you have already nerfed shadow return, haste and mug which for main hand sword means that previous S/D won’t return in the same capacity. However this is a better position for slow and steady development.
7) The gameplay made sense. FS turns down defenses to allow tactical strikes which with our snares and weakness leave enemies vulnerable for the team.
8) Dancing daggers velocity is shameful.

Try that out when no one is looking and see if the feel isn’t good.
Inb4 current S/D support.

Dirame.8521:

I think you’re looking at if from the point that the Warrior is the only one going for the Necro. The Warrior definitely won’t be. The Thief will be on him, the ele would be on him our very own Necro/Engie would be on his tail as well. Even if the Warrior was focused, the Warrior spec I’ve been playing and the Warriors I’ve been playing with are quite beefy and bringing them down takes more than just focus fire. In fact, you could actually send one of these guys to hold a point for a while and they would survive against 3 for more than just a few seconds.

Toss in me and my Burst healing Engy and these guys could survive for quite some time in a team fight.

Yes ofcourse everybody would be on the necro but keep in mind the other team will be bursting someone down as well. And the funny part the best class to keep pressure is the second most OP right now, which is the S/D thief… The whole issue though, is that necros can do stuff from range while the warrior cannot. If the necro has a decent team peeling for him and all, its very safe to say that his team will have the upperhand easily, especially if he kites toward the stairs to his home point (talking about legacy here) and his team nukes whoever tries to go up while the guardian keeps the point contested.

Warrior animation are quite easy to telegraph and you can actually have your dodges set for that. Meanwhile when you look at a necro you don’t even see what he is trowing at you, but within 2 seconds you got all the conditions in the kittening game..

I really hope this thread can remain constructive, as there are some fantastic thoughts and posts. I main a valk’s Ele for team jo0 binder but have pretty extensive experience with every class, especially Engineer/Mesmer/Necro (and excluding ranger/warrior), to give a bit of background.

I’m very much with others in that my biggest problem with the current meta is the ease with which certain builds are successful. It seems with this last patch, skill floors and skill caps are all over the place. Other people have made tons of great suggestions so I’ll try and remain succinct.

Thoughtful play should always be more important and successful than mindless builds. Spirit Rangers, with such incredibly passive play, should not be able to be as impactful as they are. Similarly, builds like the S/D thief and the Dhuumfire Necro with their absolute ease of success should have no place in serious play. I agree that there are problems with other classes and builds (I’d like to see Mesmer GS toned down a bit damage wise, for example) but rather than core issues these are slight tweaks. Simply, at their core, cheese builds like the 30/30/10 Necro, S/D thief, and Spirit Rangers offer way too much reward for too little risk.

I can’t help but laugh when people are quick to point out that Ele burst is currently pretty strong. In reality, little has changed about its burst rotation — I’ve been doing Earthquake>Phoenix/Firegrab>Air for more than half a year now. I agree, it’s a little bit stronger than it should be, especially aided by the increased speed on Phoenix. However, to set it up requires a lot, and as is the nature of the Elementalist in combat, many of your key abilities during that chain may be on cooldown. Sure, it needs slight tweaks… but at ` its core, it requires a thoughtful and engaged player to be successful. Compare an Ele’s gameplay to a thief playing both offensively and defensively by pressing 3,3,3,3,3,3 (yes, an oversimplification, I realize; yet the point stands) and GW2 looks like a completely different game.

I commend ArenaNet for in this last balance patch trying to make unpopular builds more viable. I would absolutely love to see variety in team composition — for example, I think an Ele with Rock Solid could make for a great midpoint bunker alternative to Guardian, with a few changes, and I’d love to see a backpoint Necro — but the truly successful builds can not be mindless. The fact that a Ranger can run entirely passive utilities and provide so much to his team, more so than a class with active play, is genuinely sad and worth consideration.

I really hope the devs are keeping an eye on this thread, and I look forward to how it continues.

saVdoom.2067:

Dirame.8521:

I think you’re looking at if from the point that the Warrior is the only one going for the Necro. The Warrior definitely won’t be. The Thief will be on him, the ele would be on him our very own Necro/Engie would be on his tail as well. Even if the Warrior was focused, the Warrior spec I’ve been playing and the Warriors I’ve been playing with are quite beefy and bringing them down takes more than just focus fire. In fact, you could actually send one of these guys to hold a point for a while and they would survive against 3 for more than just a few seconds.

Toss in me and my Burst healing Engy and these guys could survive for quite some time in a team fight.

Yes ofcourse everybody would be on the necro but keep in mind the other team will be bursting someone down as well. And the funny part the best class to keep pressure is the second most OP right now, which is the S/D thief… The whole issue though, is that necros can do stuff from range while the warrior cannot. If the necro has a decent team peeling for him and all, its very safe to say that his team will have the upperhand easily, especially if he kites toward the stairs to his home point (talking about legacy here) and his team nukes whoever tries to go up while the guardian keeps the point contested.

Warrior animation are quite easy to telegraph and you can actually have your dodges set for that. Meanwhile when you look at a necro you don’t even see what he is trowing at you, but within 2 seconds you got all the conditions in the kittening game..

We could argue about this all day but it’s just a case of who is able to play better with their team.

Also Necro animations are actually quite easy to see. Every time they point a finger, they are either casting Enfeebling blood or, Grasping dead.

Did you ever read the last huge patch notes concernig s/d nerfs? Check it! Anet wont nerf the last viable thief build twice in a row, so guys stop this meaningless discussion about thieves… Every single suggestion for a change in this topic would decapitate this build. I believe Anet wont even consider this topic(nerfing again thieves). Maybe thieves should get some buffs?? To be more competitive?

Oke just played on Legacy and apparently s/d thiefs can get to the lord without destroying the gate. This is possible for the Mesmer as well if i’m not mistaken, needs fixing big time.

It is funny how specific issues regarding particular abilities and playstyles that define specific builds has turned into an "this class is OP’ thread.

I personally agree the current meta is a new low in terms of balance and fun, it is down to certain new rebalanced utilities, traits and weapon skills that we ended up here.

Why have people still not released there will always be one build for each class that outperforms other builds or other classes in its specific role?
The SPvP maps have give an edge to mid range fighting and ground targetted AOE, so melee is always at a disadvantage unless it can withstand damage or avoid it. It will always be a toss up between bunkering and debunkering in the conquest gametype.

It doesn’t take a genius to read the patchnotes and apply them. We don’t see innovation because players magically discovered a way to make sets like P/P viable again…

It is down to the developers to figure out the correct way to balance existing builds. Instead of adding new gimmicks to cosmetically alter build diversity.
They dictate the meta more than the players at this time a year after release.

Stof.9584:

Why have people still not released there will always be one build for each class that outperforms other builds or other classes in its specific role?

I generally agree with this, but I have two caveats:

If a class has different roles, it can have multiple viable builds. For example, necromancers would have a condition and power build in a perfectly balanced world, and guardians would have a bunker and DPS build.

There’s also some room for some traits to be subjective, which already happens in some trait and utility choices but should happen more often.

RaZaC.1963:

Oke just played on Legacy and apparently s/d thiefs can get to the lord without destroying the gate. This is possible for the Mesmer as well if i’m not mistaken, needs fixing big time.

What a bug? Just like poison and weakness? Give it another 3-4 months till it’ll be looked at.

Fourth.1567:

The real question is can Anet overhaul the game to such a degree? From what I have seen in recent changes they are sacrificing good gameplay for quick balance and they aren’t even achieving balance with this approach. Not sure if they have the vision for this sort of project.

This +1 Perhaps a public test realm is in order?

Btw whisper me sometime fourth miss you <3 I has warrior build for you to try out.

Kind of seems like the OP is frustrated over something, not quite sure why but his post seems disrespectful to ANet and contains mildly childish overtones. My guess is he mains a mesmer or a thief. Or runs some build that he is too stubborn to change because of the recent patches. I main a warrior and I had to change from a high DPS longbow+axe/shield build to a condi removal+CC build, and I have to tell you, owning necros has never been so easy. They’re cake. They’re a minus to the group from my perspective, whereas I suddenly become the plus in mine. Shocking, I know.

So maybe it’s time to adjust to conditions?
Maybe it’s time to start slotting condition removal?
Maybe it’s time to start looking for ways to CC necros, instead of DPSing them?
Maybe it’s time to adapt?

Necros may be OP they may not be, let’s give it some time! Start incorporating us warriors into your groups and see how it pans out!

Also I may concede that it is POSSIBLE that condi spam may be a bit much. And if that’s the case then it is not necros that are op, but conditions in general. Condis may need to be looked at again and possibly nerfed. Now how will you go about nerfing condis across the board? Well, I don’t get paid to think that stuff up. Good luck to you, ANet!

I really love to see some top players making here some statements. I remember when Xeph was in State Of The Game, and was only one asking questions community wanted him to ask.

They refuse to adapt, because current meta is ridiculous. In one patch they gave too many offensive, uncounterable stuff, and only a little defensive and reactional stuff. Reactional skills made this game how it was since beggining. (Regarding some weird things like moa from stealth).

If, in the latest patch, every ability, which could cleanse conditions, were buffed to cleanse two times more conditions, we could talk about stuff getting balanced. But no, we’ve got new condi burst stuff, which is too easy to play and too hard, even for skilled players, to counter.

I’m playing pve, pvp and a bit of wvw, and seen how meta changed in pvp and wvw. My friend, who owns a warrior, tried to make a built on his, making him able to cleanse most of the condis necro deal, but it’s nearly impossible. And that’s messed up.

Divus.3175:

I really love to see some top players making here some statements. I remember when Xeph was in State Of The Game, and was only one asking questions community wanted him to ask.

They refuse to adapt, because current meta is ridiculous. In one patch they gave too many offensive, uncounterable stuff, and only a little defensive and reactional stuff. Reactional skills made this game how it was since beggining. (Regarding some weird things like moa from stealth).

If, in the latest patch, every ability, which could cleanse conditions, were buffed to cleanse two times more conditions, we could talk about stuff getting balanced. But no, we’ve got new condi burst stuff, which is too easy to play and too hard, even for skilled players, to counter.

I’m playing pve, pvp and a bit of wvw, and seen how meta changed in pvp and wvw. My friend, who owns a warrior, tried to make a built on his, making him able to cleanse most of the condis necro deal, but it’s nearly impossible. And that’s messed up.

If you had enough condition cleanse to you character condition builds will not kill you.
It is a choice. Use a great overall build with little condition cleanse or a hard counter. It is possible if you use as many condition cleansing skills as possible for each class.

RockSteady Once you start playing the game at high lvl spvp you will understand what he’s talking about.

I agree 100% the current meta is complete garbage…..

dw next meta is gona be worse

Zelulose.8695:

Divus.3175:

I really love to see some top players making here some statements. I remember when Xeph was in State Of The Game, and was only one asking questions community wanted him to ask.

They refuse to adapt, because current meta is ridiculous. In one patch they gave too many offensive, uncounterable stuff, and only a little defensive and reactional stuff. Reactional skills made this game how it was since beggining. (Regarding some weird things like moa from stealth).

If, in the latest patch, every ability, which could cleanse conditions, were buffed to cleanse two times more conditions, we could talk about stuff getting balanced. But no, we’ve got new condi burst stuff, which is too easy to play and too hard, even for skilled players, to counter.

I’m playing pve, pvp and a bit of wvw, and seen how meta changed in pvp and wvw. My friend, who owns a warrior, tried to make a built on his, making him able to cleanse most of the condis necro deal, but it’s nearly impossible. And that’s messed up.

If you had enough condition cleanse to you character condition builds will not kill you.
It is a choice. Use a great overall build with little condition cleanse or a hard counter. It is possible if you use as many condition cleansing skills as possible for each class.

There is not enough cleanse for the amount of conditions being spammed. The trully only counter to that condi sometimes is to go full zerg in order to kill him before he is able to pull all his rotation. There is no way to sustain that amount of conditions being trown, which is the main issue… especially since a certain class can trow all of them together and at the same time fear you for over 5 seconds while they eat through you.

IMHO, all what this game need is Global Cooldowns, Diminishing Returns and less 100% to apply “name something” for 4 sec cooldown 10 sec. Also Auto-Attacks should never be the main dps source (and that’s why warrior is struggling imo, no super ranged auto-pewpew that either hit like a truck or apply 4 conditions) if you take a dps meter you’ll see that auto-attacks do much more damage than a 45 sec cooldown skill like in 3 sec.

saVdoom.2067:

Zelulose.8695:

Divus.3175:

I really love to see some top players making here some statements. I remember when Xeph was in State Of The Game, and was only one asking questions community wanted him to ask.

They refuse to adapt, because current meta is ridiculous. In one patch they gave too many offensive, uncounterable stuff, and only a little defensive and reactional stuff. Reactional skills made this game how it was since beggining. (Regarding some weird things like moa from stealth).

If, in the latest patch, every ability, which could cleanse conditions, were buffed to cleanse two times more conditions, we could talk about stuff getting balanced. But no, we’ve got new condi burst stuff, which is too easy to play and too hard, even for skilled players, to counter.

I’m playing pve, pvp and a bit of wvw, and seen how meta changed in pvp and wvw. My friend, who owns a warrior, tried to make a built on his, making him able to cleanse most of the condis necro deal, but it’s nearly impossible. And that’s messed up.

If you had enough condition cleanse to you character condition builds will not kill you.
It is a choice. Use a great overall build with little condition cleanse or a hard counter. It is possible if you use as many condition cleansing skills as possible for each class.

There is not enough cleanse for the amount of conditions being spammed. The trully only counter to that condi sometimes is to go full zerg in order to kill him before he is able to pull all his rotation. There is no way to sustain that amount of conditions being trown, which is the main issue… especially since a certain class can trow all of them together and at the same time fear you for over 5 seconds while they eat through you.

With a ranger for example, even if you have some bleeding, you have the 5k from your healing skill every 30s, and you will be evading the bleed hits (if your not randomly dodging). Furthermore, you get 300-200 regen depending on you healing power. Personally my ranger easily specs against conditions with energy sigils, healing spring, empathetic bond, and signet of renewal. Just keep dodging and if you need extra condition removal healing spring will remove one every 3 seconds

saVdoom.2067:

Off the topic: Does no one find it funny that everyone has already settled that every single competitive team must have a guardian? …

It’s worth looking at why. Are guardians too good at bunker, or do other professions just need improved. What do guardians have, such as plentiful stability, that other bunkers don’t?

Because you are of the opinion that those classes are imbalanced? Classes that have trouble dealing with something will complain about it sometimes they complain to complain but in this case I personally don’t believe that true.

No because those classes cannot be compared to an S/D Thief. And I already stated why far too many times. I never mentioned anything about them being imbalanced in this thread.

So I am really sorry that I am not that delusional to think for a second that I am in the same state with an elementalist, a mesmer and an engineer and I should sit back and wait for them to dictate my own nerfs because an S/D thief annoys them.

Kitten please.

Sure class diversity is a great thing but you are not actually trying to say that running d/p is superior in a tournament game over d/p? 90% of the thief’s runs s/d and that is not what i would call class diversity.

You stated that some thieves are thought to be really good because of the build and not the skill. You clearly mentioned, that because of S/D build others think they are godlike when its the build.

I replied back telling you that you are completely wrong. In each meta with different weapon sets, some players excel and others decide to be on their old weapon set for their own reasons.

Also I if you want to talk about skill again then go back and summarize every single example I brought up regarding the intelligent play.

But if you really want to argue with me over this whole “easy mode should be punished” with S/D then I can gladly make a list adding punishment for all classes.

Because of the Necromancer the S/D thief shines even more as explained in posts above me. And I do question the knowledge of a player suggesting to run cc warriors in tournaments. At this point there is a clear “strongest” composition that dominates competitive PvP scene.

Necromancer and a S/D thief share nothing in common. A necromancer and an engineer do for the obvious reasons.

Teams will pick up a comp with an S/D thief because of tactical reasons. Just like teams pick up a CC Warrior for tactical reasons. Just like other teams might consider (soon or in the future) to pair up a CC Warrior with a D/P Thief for tactical reasons or try to fit in a role for a D/P thief.

We are still in point zero because the fact remains that if you break down S/D thief and compare it to other classes and what those classes bring to the team, you will realize what a completely load of BS your argument is.

And for the last time, if you want skill and balance, like I said, bring everything to the state of Warrior. I personally do not want that because there is no reason not to have specific roles for specific classes and there is no reason not to have classes and builds countering each other and canceling out every type of “meta”. That is balance; having a meta is not.

QtHman.6502:

RockSteady Once you start playing the game at high lvl spvp you will understand what he’s talking about.

High level
Guild Wars 2

Nope.

When an entire team can go to a point under shadow refuge and instagib an unaware defender, it is not high level.
When you win battles by simply out DPSing your opponent instead of outsmarting your opponent, it is not high level.
AoE spam is not high level.
Condi spam is not high level.

When, nay, IF you ever play a competitive game at high level you will understand what high level means.

There will always remain certain builds, which require less skill. Look at the state-of-the-ranger . . . this class screams for skillless play.

However I agree on OP.
But even after toning down these things, you will find yourself in the same game, in which Ranged-AoE DPS is dominating. Doesn’t really matter if it comes from a mesmers GS, from marks or elementalist.
In general this game will never reach a state where the skill of a player regarding class-play is more important than his rotation and roaming. It’s just a bonus that comes along.

Current state of the meta isn’t good at all, I agree. But in all honesty, is reverting back to greatsword mesmers an improvement at all? It’s the same thing with just a different form of damage (power vs. condi). AoE all across the board needs to either go down in damage, or be more predictable and counterable (dragon’s tooth-like), ideally a combination of the two. Also, as long as ranged damage stays at it’s current place, melee needs to have those teleports and evades (even mesmer has blurred frenzy and distortion, while keeping stupid amounts of burst damage, the reason they are seeing less spotlight is because of condi-heavy meta). Simply said melee needs to be rewarded for the risk it needs to undertake, and that will only happen by either melee being significantly stronger than ranged damage in terms of damage done (old era backstab thieves), or simply being tougher to kill (evades, bulk, boon uptime, invulnerabilities, disengages,…). This however, doesn’t promote the plays that people want to see and players want to play. There is too much damage and too many dodges/evades/invulnerabilities in this game, making it all spam-based and not skillful at all.

The change to s/d thieves that I would like to see is through differentiation rather than direct nerf. The evasion (at least considering the current state of the game) needs to stay as it is . The true problem with the build is that it’s doing everything at the same time. Evasion, damage and boon stripping are all tied to one single skill, with the added value of condition cleansing and disengage on another. Buff tactical strike to deal acceptable spike damage (provided it’s a daze, the damage should be a bit lower than backstab yet still better than what it is), nerf larcenous strike damage accordingly (evade + buff stealing shouldn’t be the primary source of damage anyway). It would also be good to nerf shadow return (and make infiltrator’s strike ground targeted) to the same distance as phase retreat once the AoE and ranged damage is brought in line, so that thieves have an alternative to shortbow (which is kitten now anyways). Either way, I am rather convinced that it’s neither the dodges, nor the damage that is overpowered. It’s their combination, and the only right way to go about this is to separate the two aspects and take another look how it would affect the build.

^ Why would we use single-target skills if AoE does the same or even better damage but in.. AoE?

And this is the main thing why damage is out of control.

QtHman.6502:

RockSteady Once you start playing the game at high lvl spvp you will understand what he’s talking about.

What are you, the god of gw2? Get over yourself. His opinion is as valid as yours.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

There will always remain certain builds, which require less skill. Look at the state-of-the-ranger . . . this class screams for skillless play.

However I agree on OP.
But even after toning down these things, you will find yourself in the same game, in which Ranged-AoE DPS is dominating. Doesn’t really matter if it comes from a mesmers GS, from marks or elementalist.
In general this game will never reach a state where the skill of a player regarding class-play is more important than his rotation and roaming. It’s just a bonus that comes along.

It will never EVER change. They have to nerf aoe. That is it. No auto attack should have aoe (like nades) and no weapon set should have all aoe (staff necro or ele). They need to make fundamental changes to the game. They wont though, recently they have buffed ranged aoe. Look at mesmer GS for example. It would be so awesome if weapons like rifle for warrior were viable. But right now if you cant bring aoe then what is the point?

We can all squabble about balance. But for the me, the core issue is bigger than that. It is a lack of balance between AOE spam and single target damage.

Yesterday I played all day. By the end of the day I could hardly keep my eyes open, being so tired. My net was lagging. Everything was wrong. Despite this, a necro can still contribute just by spamming 2/3/4/5. I wasnt good. I was playing terribly, but at least midly effective nonetheless.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

There will always remain certain builds, which require less skill. Look at the state-of-the-ranger . . . this class screams for skillless play.

However I agree on OP.
But even after toning down these things, you will find yourself in the same game, in which Ranged-AoE DPS is dominating. Doesn’t really matter if it comes from a mesmers GS, from marks or elementalist.
In general this game will never reach a state where the skill of a player regarding class-play is more important than his rotation and roaming. It’s just a bonus that comes along.

It will never EVER change. They have to nerf aoe. That is it. No auto attack should have aoe (like nades) and no weapon set should have all aoe (staff necro or ele). They need to make fundamental changes to the game. They wont though, recently they have buffed ranged aoe. Look at mesmer GS for example. It would be so awesome if weapons like rifle for warrior were viable. But right now if you cant bring aoe then what is the point?

We can all squabble about balance. But for the me, the core issue is bigger than that. It is a lack of balance between AOE spam and single target damage.

Yep, a significant problem since release. The funny thing about it as you said, A-Net stated they will toning down AoE and in the same breath they buffing AoE. That’s logic.
Also conquest favors AoE even more. I doubt they will start to fix this. I rather see in the future better ranged-AoE skills for classes like the thief or the guardian.

It’s unstoppable, this meta.

They won’t significantly tone down aoe. Why? because it’s a core component of pve. GG.

It would be fun to see AoE changed, so that it hits your team just the same as the enemy team, that could provide for some coordinated play. Also, hotjoins would be full of dead bodies

milo.6942:

They won’t significantly tone down aoe. Why? because it’s a core component of pve. GG.

Core component of PvE is melee cleave mostly. The major problem currently is ranged AoE pressure.

Also, PvP/PvE split.

Necro and sd thief both hate on boon bunker builds, imo that is a step in the right direction.

Meta changed =/= meta is worse, lower ttk (to a certain point) promotes higher skill. However ranged AOE damage is probably too high.

after reading this whole thread and adding my own opinion the “current meta” would be like that:

303010 necro: too easy to play, too much conditions/damage, not enough disengages
s/d thief: too easy to play, too much evades, too much damage
ele: not too hard to play, too much burst
engi: pretty hard to play, but when mastered a must have for a team
guardian: the only real bunkeroption because of the access to stability (rocksolid ele might be able to compete with him)
(spirit)ranger: too easy to play, most of his skills are passive
Mesmer: not viable in the aoe condi meta
Warrior: some CC warriorspecs may be successful but still too bad to be really considered

Well,

Im a thief myself and all I have to say is that I fear that any further nerfs to s/d without any buffs (to other weaponsets) will put the thief into the same position where mesmers are right now: not viable in the aoe condi meta.

I think the big problem is the dual s/d thief with quick pockets, energy sigils, signet use and signet of agility. With this spec you have low mobility and you are bound to fight teamfights in the middle. You have (too) great sustain but I personally wouldn’t say too much damage on your own. You shine with mightstacks of your guard/ele but without you are only “bursty” vs full offense/no defense specs like xeph or phantaram run.

When you take a s/d+sb thief without those, its not like you can permaspam dodgerolls. You can still sustain in melee for a bit but have to pay attention. Take away that sustain through evades and you have a second warrior. How AoE works in this game and with all those kiting tools there are, as a melee, you need something to survive this.

Its hard enough to deal powerbased damage with the state of weakness. Try not to destroy the last viable spec of my favourite class with the next “balance” patch. I would recommend looking into quick pockets and signet of agility but when you tone down signet of agility some should go for other endurance giving utilitys like elixir R.

stof.9341:

milo.6942:

They won’t significantly tone down aoe. Why? because it’s a core component of pve. GG.

Core component of PvE is melee cleave mostly. The major problem currently is ranged AoE pressure.

Also, PvP/PvE split.

well the “core” of pve is actually the casual, and any nerf to aoe is a nerf to how easily they can kill mobs. they could do pvp skill splits, but i think they are reluctant to drastically alter pvp experience.

Nothing will dramatically change in the way the game is played, if there’s going to be a pvp/pve skill split it’s going to be small and for the most part probably quite meaningless.

Anet likes the game the way it is, they don’t see a problem in things that we are complaining about, so they won’t change it. They are not aware, that you just simply can’t make a pve game and implement a pvp component in the end. It makes for a lame game with lame gameplay. This game will stay lame in pvp, there will always be cheesy crap in it, AoE spam, 1 button miracles, chaotic battleground, mindless weapon skill spam and rotating your weapon sets on cooldown, mersmers with 3 illusions and 2 phantasms running around alongside minion master necros, and spirit rangers, so it looks as if you’ve got a kittening Roman army approaching you… Oh and there’s this thief that’s just simply walking around in stealth.

kitten this kitten.

samo.1054:

Anet likes the game the way it is, they don’t see a problem in things that we are complaining about, so they won’t change it. They are not aware, that you just simply can’t make a pve game and implement a pvp component in the end.

Seems like you’re right. /sigh

Exedore.6320:

saVdoom.2067:

Off the topic: Does no one find it funny that everyone has already settled that every single competitive team must have a guardian? …

It’s worth looking at why. Are guardians too good at bunker, or do other professions just need improved. What do guardians have, such as plentiful stability, that other bunkers don’t?

If it was about Stability people would just put Warriors in mid. The fact is the Guardian has quite a few supportive shouts and skills that affect the flow of a team fight. AoE protection, AoE Stability, Wards, burning every 30 seconds, Might and that tiny bit of healing.
In order to get the same effect that a Guardian would in a team fight, you’d probably need two classes.

There are a few factors that I see contributing to the way that tPvP in this game is suffering, I suppose they are meta-related, but I consider these to be bigger than meta, design level issues that really need to be addressed in order to allow an organic meta to really take root. From launch the “meta” has been just about dictated by whatever the previous patch created. There isn’t much game to the meta when everyone figures out how to optimize a comp within 48 hours or so and the odds of beating that optimal set up are slim if you don’t comp the same way.

1) The whole damage v sustain dynamic is off in this game. It isn’t specific to the last patch, but rather seems to me that it has been that way since the beginning. Designing the combat to be “healer-less” means that damage needs to outstrip healing capability, but it seems to me that damage has always been just a bit to high to get interesting results in combat (previously it was direct damage, but with the changes in last patch it is now condi damage). The trait + amulet system appears to be the root cause, because it forces certain allocations on every profession for maximum synergy and those builds that are optimal produce effects that are outliers with respect to what other professions can accomplish in that particular part of game play. If the amulets were altered to be less top-heavy (i.e. tier 1 stat on amulet reduced with points distributed differently), then it would meaningfully alter gameplay. Perhaps it would be a better solution to just do away with the current amulets and have a UI element allowing players to distribute X number of att. points. Max allocation in a given attribute could be capped at a level lower that what is currently attainable, thus reducing overall damage, allowing for more build diversity and customizability.

2) AoE is jacked up. There is a need for heavy AoE in this game due to the presence of AI elements (phantasms, turrets, minions, pets, etc.) that contribute too much to combat if left un-checked, but the size and volume of AoE’s is what has been over done. Combine that with Conquest as the chosen game mode and the smallish nodes (relative to AoE sizes) and the combat devolves to what it is now and has been for some time. Reducing the size of AoE’s slightly, increasing some of their CD’s and increasing the size of nodes would be a step towards making the use of AoE more tactical and skill based. There is no reason why 240+ radius skills need to be in this game.

3) Restricting tPvP combat to only Conquest (not picking on conquest, if it was just TDM, or just KotH, or just CtF then the same issue comes up) creates an environment where certain skill sets are simply more tactically valuable than they would be in other scenarios. For instance, Bunkers are obviously extremely valuable in Conquest, but supposing that you were fielding a comp for a Team Death Match the value of that particular skill set is diminished considerably. Variability in the match types would foster an environment where more creative and balanced teams would be much more adaptable and therefore desirable, and this would trend toward more skill based play. If you don’t know what the objectives will be for a tourney match before you que into the map, then the comp has some choices to make on where to hedge their bets just in case X type of match occurs. I understand that generating this kind of content would take a tremendous amount of time and effort, but I also don’t believe that the combat system in this game can be broken out of the cycle of a few apex builds dominating without forcing teams to comp for adaptability rather than a single objective.

Making all AoE have a delay, like Dragon’s Tooth and Lava Font, would greatly improve GW2’s pvp without having much of an impact in pve at all. (Yes, more changes would be needed, but that’s not my point).

Making dodges less spammable, by toning down vigor and sigil of energy, would greatly improve GW2’s pvp (and interact nicely with the aoe change above) AND be a good step in the right direction to improve the horrible pve zerk-and-dodge meta.

Making less passive traits and more active damage-control-support trinity enhancing traits would improve class skill requirement and teamplay depth across ALL formats of the game.

GW2’s pvp can be improved without coming at the cost of pve – quite the opposite, actually. It’s all up to Anet and how they chose to design and balance their game.

Agreed. Necro went from zero to hero pretty fast for a game that claims “small metered changes” are part of the balancing philosophy. There was no reason for the magnitude of changes for this class.
I also agree that stealth is a definite issue but I also can’t see a clear way to tone it down without hurting thieves. I would say a knockdown or something in the like should reveal them and not allow them to stealth for a certain amount of time. I would say that necros are the biggest issue at this point.

Dirame.8521:

Exedore.6320:

saVdoom.2067:

Off the topic: Does no one find it funny that everyone has already settled that every single competitive team must have a guardian? …

It’s worth looking at why. Are guardians too good at bunker, or do other professions just need improved. What do guardians have, such as plentiful stability, that other bunkers don’t?

If it was about Stability people would just put Warriors in mid. The fact is the Guardian has quite a few supportive shouts and skills that affect the flow of a team fight. AoE protection, AoE Stability, Wards, burning every 30 seconds, Might and that tiny bit of healing.
In order to get the same effect that a Guardian would in a team fight, you’d probably need two classes.

The AoE-Stability is what is making the guardian superior to other bunker-speccs. An ele can also provide condition-cleanse, even more heal and shares-boons. However, these 6 seconds of stability are so important, many ppl don’t realize it. It’s 6 seconds during your whole team is not affected by CC. Where we have pulls, fears, knocks etc. this AoE-Stability is a big aspect, why you actually can win a teamfight.