Guild Wars 2

Reikou.7068:

Dropouts don’t get invited to an Ivy, plebeians aren’t consulted by presidents, and those in poverty don’t get invited to Davos.

Keep it simple. If you’re not in the top X00 (a rank/rating that is respectable) of the PvP leaderboards for your respective region, you cannot post on the locked board.

End of story.

I don’t think Anet should make an elitist restricted forum.

This game is not just for the top 100 it’s for everyone who plays it, newcomer and experienced player alike. If Anet takes an obviously elitist approach and refuses to cater to their more casual players they risk alienating them entirely.

Israel.7056:

Reikou.7068:

Dropouts don’t get invited to an Ivy, plebeians aren’t consulted by presidents, and those in poverty don’t get invited to Davos.

Keep it simple. If you’re not in the top X00 (a rank/rating that is respectable) of the PvP leaderboards for your respective region, you cannot post on the locked board.

End of story.

I don’t think Anet should make an elitist restricted forum.

This game is not just for the top 100 it’s for everyone who plays it, newcomer and experienced player alike. If Anet takes an obviously elitist approach and refuses to cater to their more casual players they risk alienating them entirely.

Yeh, plus “elite” players are more subject to bias because their views are inevitably shaped by what they want/need to be good. Because the game means alot to them.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Yeh, plus “elite” players are more subject to bias because their views are inevitably shaped by what they want/need to be good. Because the game means alot to them.

Absolutely right. They are all dealing in subjective opinion.

Can someone please produce a video of Spirit Rangers actually pwning people.

The only video i’ve seen is an all Ranger Team beating a team who played poorly on Objectives even though they murdered all the Rangers rather easily.

Reikou.7068:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Well said Lordrosicky.5813..
Ye QtHman,talking about GW2 needs a Harvard Phd…..Some ppl say good stuff even without being “top player”,i want to hear everyones opinion and i can judge it afterwards..And now my judgement is that you have an ego problem even tho you have some truth in your words

Some people say good stuff even without being a top player, perhaps. But being a top player gives one an insight into the game that the majority of the population do not have. It is unfortunate but true. All Hman is suggesting is a place for concentrated “top player,” feedback without being drowned out by “Frenzy 100B OP!”

Thats one side of the truth that noone ignores,in the other side tho a “top player” is a human,even tho he has better knowledge in many things also can make mistakes..

A lot of ego divas from a game that in the last Mists tournament had like 300 viewers..And the “top players” streams have like 100-200……You can barely make 100 ppl watch you and you want a special forum place?
I think i have one but i cant find where to put the throne…

Israel.7056:

I don’t think Anet should make an elitist restricted forum.

This game is not just for the top 100 it’s for everyone who plays it, newcomer and experienced player alike. If Anet takes an obviously elitist approach and refuses to cater to their more casual players they risk alienating them entirely.

The game may not be for the top 100 only, but lets be honest here. The top 100 know the game better than the other 99% of the population, and they prove it by being in the top 100.

Again, a place for concentrated “good player” discussion will definitely and absolutely help the game’s growth and population, as well as significantly increase the pool of game knowledge and ideas that float around.

Dardamaniac.1295:

Thats one side of the truth that noone ignores,in the other side tho a “top player” is a human,even tho he has better knowledge in many things also can make mistakes..

A lot of ego divas from a game that in the last Mists tournament had like 300 viewers..And the “top players” streams have like 100-200……You can barely make 100 ppl watch you and you want a special forum place?
I think i have one but i cant find where to put the throne…

Of course they make mistakes. But they simply make less mistakes than 99.9% of the population. Thats what makes these players good. No one is perfect. Its just how close to perfect you are that makes you better or worse.

Dardamaniac.1295:

Reikou.7068:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Well said Lordrosicky.5813..
Ye QtHman,talking about GW2 needs a Harvard Phd…..Some ppl say good stuff even without being “top player”,i want to hear everyones opinion and i can judge it afterwards..And now my judgement is that you have an ego problem even tho you have some truth in your words

Some people say good stuff even without being a top player, perhaps. But being a top player gives one an insight into the game that the majority of the population do not have. It is unfortunate but true. All Hman is suggesting is a place for concentrated “top player,” feedback without being drowned out by “Frenzy 100B OP!”

Thats one side of the truth that noone ignores,in the other side tho a “top player” is a human,even tho he has better knowledge in many things also can make mistakes..

A lot of ego divas from a game that in the last Mists tournament had like 300 viewers..And the “top players” streams have like 100-200……You can barely make 100 ppl watch you and you want a special forum place?
I think i have one but i cant find where to put the throne…

That’s why you won’t have just one top player giving feedback, but a pool of “insert_number_here” of top players. Based on that, you can get a sort of “filtered” feedback, limiting the bias factor (one person might say that spirit rangers are op, 49 other might say it’s fine…). It would certainly be better than a forum full of “nerf 100b” or “nerf shatter” or whatever, shouted by every rank1 player who just started playing or by an hotjoin hero who never stepped into rated play.

Reikou.7068:

The game may not be for the top 100 only, but lets be honest here. The top 100 know the game better than the other 99% of the population, and they prove it by being in the top 100.

They know the game enough to be successful.

Their successes within the context of one particular competitive game mode doesn’t make their opinions and values any more relevant than anyone else’s. All they can objectively establish is what can be used effectively within the context of that particular game mode.

All they have ever demonstrated by winning is that they know how to win.

I think that a restricted winner’s forum is exactly what this game doesn’t need. It says to everyone else “thanks for playing but we do not value your input because you don’t win; your opinion is irrelevant to us because you’re not the best.”

Sadly ‘top players’ does not always equal ‘flawless and relatively objective balance feedback aimed at improving game balance’.

Besides, using leaderboards to determine a top player is rather laughable, but if you insist on that, the calls should be put off at least until yoloque and premade que are actually separated.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Sadly ‘top players’ does not always equal ‘flawless and relatively objective balance feedback aimed at improving game balance’.

Besides, using leaderboards to determine a top player is rather laughable, but if you insist on that, the calls should be put off at least until yoloque and premade que are actually separated.

Perhaps not. But it is definitely more educated feedback.

quite sad to see a great thread go to waste with all this kittening about who has the biggest/best kittens.

Honestly I’m far more interested in learning the top player’s methods than I am their opinions and values. Teach me how to be better at this game through comprehensive in-depth instruction and leave it at that. The top players already have stickied links to their streams I think that’s enough special treatment.

And this is why the forums are a joke most of the time you got those players who doesn’t understand the game or they think they do talking all kinds of things. They should just make a forum for the top 2% of players that spvp in Gw2…..

Rather then they make the forum so the ‘top 2%’ can debate amongst themselves the meta and changes that are needed, why don’t u? It’d probably end up being a forum where theres like 10 people, each extremely vocal about why they are right and why the others are wrong. If you think about it, it wont be any different to what this forum already is or any other forum that talks about pvp. How are you going to set the requirement for top 2%, or even top 3-5%? What if someone was say top 5.5%, are their opinions not as the same value as the top 2%? Its not as if the pvp is so deep in this game that it takes months to understand it.

This idea is totally absurd for so many reasons. If you have theories about what is wrong with the game and ideas on how to improve it, let it be known to EVERYONE and not just a small group of the most vocal hardcore players. If your well respected enough (as it seems you are) then people will listen, it will get anet’s attention. Theres no need to try and monopolize who and who does not get heard – its really for the benefit of Anet and all who cares about pvp that everyone puts forth opinions and ideas subjectively so its their job to be objective about it.

Alienating the other 98% of pvpers is about as elitist as you can get.

I agree with Henry and disagree with Hman. His approach is elitist and completely unprofessional.

Not only your idea of listening only the top 2% of players has no chance of being ever realised, it also is flawed on the most basic level. Because people at the bottom have functioning minds as well (some of them probably a lot brighter than yours or mine). They don’t put as much time as you do into the game, but it doesn’t disqualify them from giving a valuable and valid feedback.

Reading your post, Hman, does exactly the opposite of what you’re advocating. It turns me from you and shows exactly why devs shouldn’t listen the top players only.

I play a lot of PvP, but I don’t consider myself a top player. Even then I’m able to express a well-thought analysis based on my experiences. You may want to take a look at the topic I just opened:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/I-wrote-GW2-Balance-Manifesto
to see how it’s done. I think the changes I proposed inside would help the game.

I believe in the test team that they have inside ArenaNet. Some of the top players may think their understanding of the game is superb, but ArenaNet understands much more than you may imagine.

That is all.

Lopez.7369:

Israel.7056:

Lopez.7369:

The problem with the current metagame is it’s way too unrewarding to someone who is more skillful.

I don’t understand this way of thinking.

Thankfully, the developers do. Whether they successfully do something about it remains to be seen.

If you look @ current meta they actually don’t understand a freaking kitten of nothing…just saying…aside from that maybe not a full top 100 feedback but of course opinions from a random r10 pve hero and xeph are a bit different in value…and till now anet seems to follow the “number” rather than the quality of the ppl posting ideas (We know we know..more happy casual pvp players and wow kids = more gems = profit)….we, or better…YOU, majority of the forum community get what you asked for. Just stop looking @ r10s qq for stupid stuff and take a look @ real problems…i still see ppl complain bout mesmers in tpvp lol…just as an example..like someone wrote before it’s like complaining bout whole engis state just because teldo owns…

Theads like " OMG i luv u anet" and “I love this game so much I let dog starve to death” are worthy of a reply from anet.

this one doesn’t… Amazing!

PPL still don’t get, that the problem of balance doesn’t rely so much on classes, but rather the whole concept of skillz and traits. AoE, which has been discussed heavily, is just one aspect of it.

So what ppl do, including me, is come into the forum and ask for nerfs/buffs. What we should keep in mind is that not the class needs a fix. The system overall needs one. And for sure it needs it really fast. Otherwise I don’t see this game ever being considered as an E-Sport.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

PPL still don’t get, that the problem of balance doesn’t rely so much on classes, but rather the whole concept of skillz and traits. AoE, which has been discussed heavily, is just one aspect of it.

So what ppl do, including me, is come into the forum and ask for nerfs/buffs. What we should keep in mind is that not the class needs a fix. The system overall needs one. And for sure it needs it really fast. Otherwise I don’t see this game ever being considered as an E-Sport.

Definitely true, but most of us have given up the hope for a real mechanics revamp.

Till now the general rule for balance is: If you see the same class and even the same build 2 and even 3 times in many if not every tpvp team you get there must be something wrong with it…same thing if you don’t see something at all except from really good ones who still play that anyway (Warriors are the best example). Feels like 80% of the community likes to play fotm giving a kitten bout balance even asking not to nerf something just for being able to faceroll everything with no effort, like eles before, then bm rangers…and necros now.. All classes must be pretty much interchangeable and this kitten tpvp is really far from that…i would say the exact opposite from that, if you want to win you need this, this and this because otherwise you’re already kittened even before going in…jusus you get 2 necros teams even going youloqueue atm…

ANet solution for necros is to boost the base radius of the staff marks from 120 to 180 it seems

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/july-23-content-release-notes/

Now, the official FotM necro build is cemented into 30/20/20/0/0/ No more options for 10 points doing 30/20/10/0/0

stof.9341:

ANet solution for necros is to boost the base radius of the staff marks from 120 to 180 it seems

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/july-23-content-release-notes/

Now, the official FotM necro build is cemented into 30/20/20/0/0/ No more options for 10 points doing 30/20/10/0/0

lolwhat?

They also moved the Greater Marks trait to Master so you need 20 points in Death Magic for that one.

They reduced the damage Necros take in Death Shroud.

gg.

Reikou.7068:

They reduced the damage Necros take in Death Shroud.

gg.

It was a bug.

sorrow.2364:

Reikou.7068:

They reduced the damage Necros take in Death Shroud.

gg.

It was a bug.

Pretty sure mesmer bugs are still there meanwhile…but it’s ok since mesmer is op…lulz

Archaon.6245:

Pretty sure mesmer bugs are still there meanwhile…but it’s ok since mesmer is op…lulz

Yeah, quite a small but if the main defensive mechanic of a profession actually makes you take more damage.

The mesmer equivalent would be that you take more damage for each clone you have or, I don’t know, all of mesmer’s distortions last shorter.

Archaon.6245:

sorrow.2364:

Reikou.7068:

They reduced the damage Necros take in Death Shroud.

gg.

It was a bug.

Pretty sure mesmer bugs are still there meanwhile…but it’s ok since mesmer is op…lulz

Sorry bro, I doubt this patch will make mesmer viable again for tpvp. However you can still faceroll ppl in hotjoin, hurray!

The only thing I disagree with you on us having “top tier players” opinions only. They are just as guilty as everyone else when it comes to bad ideas. Just because you play 24 hours doesn’t mean you have a complete understanding of every mechanic or how to fix it. Also, they play a different game than someone who just comes in. They are built for team fights and around team fights…but the Joe Schmo that comes in is not going to have that knowledge or ability to play at that level. So I agree with you blind in a way that their opinion should be held in high regard but should not be the answer to all the problems we have today.

We need to keep it very simple here.

Ideally we want every class and spec type to be a part of the meta. Even if it means that that specific spec counters your current build/set-up. And even if its less enjoyable for you to play against this specific spec/setup.

This would be entire fine if abbilities where properly balanced. If “stuff” that does a lot of damage or has a huge impact on the fight is relatively hard to set up. And that isnt the case with necros in their current state.

Where the game (in my eyes) should be like fencing or boxing Where you attack, defend, and counter attack. Where you push in or break off based on your chance of succes.

The game currently moves in to a direction where its more about spamming as much “crap” as possible before you die. Where "zergy dmg prevails over well timed attacks.

And thats something we shouldnt want.

Although, i agree with Xeph concerning the current meta, i believe it will only get worse. The reason for saying that is that almost a year and still there is not a clear role for the classes available. That is mostly because there is no dedicated heal class in game.

Now, i am not proposing to bring a dedicate heal class in game, but it would be nice to see for a change Frontline-Midline-backline with the current classes. That will promote position play and will bring the team feeling back online.

Is it possible to see that in the future ? Yes. But this will happen only if Anet concentrate to adjust the skills and traits accordingnally. To make it short, will be nice to see GW2 which promotes actual team and positioning play.

Regards

Seed

Frontline- Midline – backline can’t really come back because as you’ve said there are no dedicated healing classes and there’s no body blocking. Position is important but less obvious than in gw1. The team feeling is there but again it’s way different than gw1. But I agree I would like to see more possiblities for team synergy and skill cap all around.

We can have support classes in this game. They wouldn’t need to be like traditional healers – just have enough traits and skills to support party-driven effects (be they offensive, defensive or a bit of both) instead of self-centered bunkering. Because they would be no bunkers, they would be frail and need to be protected. A bunker would defend the points or, in a different game mode, a runner would take the flag. The “party supporters” would defend the party, and especially the glass cannons, the runner, or making sure the bunker was unbeatable. Control-driven builds would attempt to take the bunker out of the point or force the runner to drop the flag, and glass cannons would coordenate their spikes, switching targets between the frail party supporters and other “main guys” (a bunker at a moment of vulnerability, a runner, etc).

This is not possible at the moment, but the combat can be tweaked to allow this kind of team synergy in the future. Toned down stability, stronger party-driven effects and traits, etc, bunkers that would require party support. I don’t think it would need a “massive revamp” for this.

Example:
Support trait: “Your elementalist’s water healing skills have higher radius and heal other allies 20% more.”
Bunker/ Runner trait: “You get healed 20% more by your allies.”
Bunker/ runner sigil: “Each time you’re affected by one of your allies skills, you get +10 toughness. 25 stacks max. Resets on downed.”

butch.8136:

Frontline- Midline – backline can’t really come back because as you’ve said there are no dedicated healing classes and there’s no body blocking. Position is important but less obvious than in gw1. The team feeling is there but again it’s way different than gw1. But I agree I would like to see more possiblities for team synergy and skill cap all around.

Exactly. That is what i meant. It would be nice to some synergy between the current classes. For example, Frontliners (Warriors, Thiefs) that doing their job, by pressuring the opponents and assisting the support caster classes. Midliners(Eles, Necros, Engis) that support the frontliners while at the same time can do damage on called targets by the frontliners. And Backliners( Guardians) which support the the Front and Midline, while at the same time can step up and be frontline if needed.

Yeah. Will be nice to see some synergy between the classes. I only hope that the game will get better in the future.

Regards

Seed

Follidus.8027:

I want to say the game can just be balanced normally (because I felt like it was so close pre-patch), but at the same time we see powerful builds being created even without buffs to things (ex. spirit rangers).

“without buffs to things”

June 25th patch:

-Spirit-activated skill range increased from 180 to 240 (360 when traited).
-Call Lightning: Increased the damage by 150%.
-Vigorous Spirits: This trait has been merged with Spiritual Knowledge.
-Spiritual Knowledge: This trait has been moved to the Adept tier.

Reikou.7068:

Dardamaniac.1295:

Well said Lordrosicky.5813..
Ye QtHman,talking about GW2 needs a Harvard Phd…..Some ppl say good stuff even without being “top player”,i want to hear everyones opinion and i can judge it afterwards..And now my judgement is that you have an ego problem even tho you have some truth in your words

Some people say good stuff even without being a top player, perhaps. But being a top player gives one an insight into the game that the majority of the population do not have. It is unfortunate but true. All Hman is suggesting is a place for concentrated “top player,” feedback without being drowned out by “Frenzy 100B OP!”

It will help with both new players coming into the game to easily be able to look at, and find opinions/ideas from the best, as well as provide more useful and relevant information and discussion about the current state of the competitive scene between players who actually play in the scene.

I really do not understand why people would be against something like this. Both boards, this one and the proposed board would easily be able to coexist.

This is a great idea IMO. Something needs to be done with regards to the way this game is being balanced.

If I take a look at GW1 and then at GW2, I can’t help but feel saddened at the way the words :" Top Player" get used, these words have basically lost any meaning.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Israel.7056:

Reikou.7068:

Dropouts don’t get invited to an Ivy, plebeians aren’t consulted by presidents, and those in poverty don’t get invited to Davos.

Keep it simple. If you’re not in the top X00 (a rank/rating that is respectable) of the PvP leaderboards for your respective region, you cannot post on the locked board.

End of story.

I don’t think Anet should make an elitist restricted forum.

This game is not just for the top 100 it’s for everyone who plays it, newcomer and experienced player alike. If Anet takes an obviously elitist approach and refuses to cater to their more casual players they risk alienating them entirely.

Yeh, plus “elite” players are more subject to bias because their views are inevitably shaped by what they want/need to be good. Because the game means alot to them.

This is mostly incorrect, fact is people who want to play this game competitively need this game to succeed in order for them to succeed, so they are more likely to throw bias aside in order for this game to become better; what we have here is not a flourishing game, but rather a game that is struggling, so there is no real reason for players that are taking this game seriously to try and derail balance.

As for the casual player, he will always have opinions on what little experience he has, plus the fact that his skill level might not allow him to judge situations correctly, meaning that most of the time they don’t see the bigger picture.
I am in no way saying that their opinion isn’t valuable, but I think that the casual ’s opinion is a lot more subjective to bias, because of their limited understanding / knowledge of the class match ups and overall balance that is required to remedy the problems.

Xeph.4513:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Israel.7056:

Reikou.7068:

Dropouts don’t get invited to an Ivy, plebeians aren’t consulted by presidents, and those in poverty don’t get invited to Davos.

Keep it simple. If you’re not in the top X00 (a rank/rating that is respectable) of the PvP leaderboards for your respective region, you cannot post on the locked board.

End of story.

I don’t think Anet should make an elitist restricted forum.

This game is not just for the top 100 it’s for everyone who plays it, newcomer and experienced player alike. If Anet takes an obviously elitist approach and refuses to cater to their more casual players they risk alienating them entirely.

Yeh, plus “elite” players are more subject to bias because their views are inevitably shaped by what they want/need to be good. Because the game means alot to them.

This is mostly incorrect, fact is people who want to play this game competitively need this game to succeed in order for them to succeed, so they are more likely to throw bias aside in order for this game to become better; what we have here is not a flourishing game, but rather a game that is struggling, so there is no real reason for players that are taking this game seriously to try and derail balance.

As for the casual player, he will always have opinions on what little experience he has, plus the fact that his skill level might not allow him to judge situations correctly, meaning that most of the time they don’t see the bigger picture.
I am in no way saying that their opinion isn’t valuable, but I think that the casual ’s opinion is a lot more subjective to bias, because of their limited understanding / knowledge of the class match ups and overall balance that is required to remedy the problems.

If anet is watching top-player games foremost, clearly does speak to tournament players and looks at forum and in-game feedback. They vocally state they watch most tournaments.

Whatever feedback they get whether casual or not they have to evaluate regardless. If it’s biased they should see through it. If they do not any changes based off that feedback has to be tested. Straight-up. If we’re not happy at what’s going on, then really there isn’t any reason for this discussion that is segrating the community and visibly fostering and revealing resentment.

Any change (I would assume) has to be tested. If whack changes are coming out, than the testing phase internally has to be scrutinized. Why worry about where they get external feedback. They’re going to read things regardless, they just need to be checked well in testing.

Batmang.5421:

“without buffs to things”

June 25th patch:

-Spirit-activated skill range increased from 180 to 240 (360 when traited).
-Call Lightning: Increased the damage by 150%.
-Vigorous Spirits: This trait has been merged with Spiritual Knowledge.
-Spiritual Knowledge: This trait has been moved to the Adept tier.

Spirit-activated skill range didn’t increase when you take it traited, afaik. (spirits don’t give a range on their actives in the tooltips, but spirit res felt the same, but I could be wrong.)

Spiritual Knowledge (+35% chance to proc passive) doesn’t really do much, since these proc on HIT with a 10s cd. + Vigorous Spirits (spirits have twice as much health) was already in the first tier, then I don’t really think this change does anything.

Call Lightning I didn’t even realize got buffed, but yes this is a pretty good buff. While I think this is strong (and I don’t understand why), I don’t think this makes or breaks the build or anything.

Xeph.4513:

This is mostly incorrect, fact is people who want to play this game competitively need this game to succeed in order for them to succeed, so they are more likely to throw bias aside in order for this game to become better; what we have here is not a flourishing game, but rather a game that is struggling, so there is no real reason for players that are taking this game seriously to try and derail balance.

As for the casual player, he will always have opinions on what little experience he has, plus the fact that his skill level might not allow him to judge situations correctly, meaning that most of the time they don’t see the bigger picture.
I am in no way saying that their opinion isn’t valuable, but I think that the casual ’s opinion is a lot more subjective to bias, because of their limited understanding / knowledge of the class match ups and overall balance that is required to remedy the problems.

I reject the premise that the desire to play competitively somehow shields one from bias.

I reject the premise that bias must be the result of intent. Bias is often simply the result of an imperfect (incomplete) perspective.

I reject the premise that greater experience necessarily makes any opinion more valid.

I think you reveal your own personal bias towards yourself and people like you when you use phrases like “judge situations correctly” and " seeing the bigger picture."

I understand that you are a “top player” and so you personally stand to gain from being given greater influence over the development of the game. You obviously care deeply about the game and I know you want to see it succeed. You are free to express your opinions and anyone is free to take you seriously or disregard your advice. This is how it should be imo.

Call me crazy but this is just a thought I had, how about addressing your desired audience in the title of the thread, rather than asking ANet to make you special snowflakes your own sub forum. You know, something like “Current state of the meta – Top Tier tPvP”?

And that idea being batted around about removing build customization in exchange for pre-approved builds, I mean, really? You want to essentially throw out the idea of build diversity (something even top tier players have been asking for) and slap on a bandaid just for the sake of creating a shortcut to “balance”? So not only would we only get one map to play on at a time, but we’d also only get one or two builds to play with per class? And you think this would somehow make the game better and more fun to play/watch?

And these are the kinds of ideas separating the 1% from the 99%?

I think some people need to take a bite or two of some humble pie, as clearly anybody seems to be capable of contributing poorly constructed ideas…

Being top tier doesn’t make your opinions more valid or make you less bias. You likely play a lot more than a casual player, but you also play a different game than a casual. Also it doesn’t free you from bias. I believe you care about the game xeph, but not everyone wants the same things as you, therefore their opinion will differ…does that make them wrong? Your words should maybe be held a little higher on the pedestal but the casual gamer shouldn’t be completely left out.

Israel.7056:

Xeph.4513:

This is mostly incorrect, fact is people who want to play this game competitively need this game to succeed in order for them to succeed, so they are more likely to throw bias aside in order for this game to become better; what we have here is not a flourishing game, but rather a game that is struggling, so there is no real reason for players that are taking this game seriously to try and derail balance.

As for the casual player, he will always have opinions on what little experience he has, plus the fact that his skill level might not allow him to judge situations correctly, meaning that most of the time they don’t see the bigger picture.
I am in no way saying that their opinion isn’t valuable, but I think that the casual ’s opinion is a lot more subjective to bias, because of their limited understanding / knowledge of the class match ups and overall balance that is required to remedy the problems.

I reject the premise that the desire to play competitively somehow shields one from bias.

I reject the premise that bias must be the result of intent. Bias is often simply the result of an imperfect (incomplete) perspective.

I reject the premise that greater experience necessarily makes any opinion more valid.

I think you reveal your own personal bias towards yourself and people like you when you use phrases like “judge situations correctly” and " seeing the bigger picture."

I understand that you are a “top player” and so you personally stand to gain from being given greater influence over the development of the game. You obviously care deeply about the game and I know you want to see it succeed. You are free to express your opinions and anyone is free to take you seriously or disregard your advice. This is how it should be imo.

Consider the following two theoretical situations, and decide which would be better:

1. The PVP is completely balanced at the casual, noob-friendly level. Anyone can come in, pick a class and build, and play it well enough to compete with other players of the same level. However, with enough player skill, certain classes far outweigh the others, to the point where top level tournaments cannot exist, and good players leave for a new game.

2. The PVP is completely balanced at the top level. Coming in as a new player, there are certain faceroll builds are are ridiculously easy to steamroll other new/casual players with, but at the top level the game is done well.

I personally believe the second is optimal, as one can always play or practice more to to get a higher level, but cannot “downgrade.” This is a problem a lot of other MMOs have, actually. Many players complain on the forums about something being OP, it gets nerfed, or something else gets buffed, and the top players get shafted and leave the game. And with them, the PVP leaves. As a new/casual player, I’m perfectly fine with the devs working with only top players and teams to balance, and then letting the rest of us deal with it, since at least we know that it’s possible to reach a skill level where there will be balance.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Archaon.6245:

sorrow.2364:

Reikou.7068:

They reduced the damage Necros take in Death Shroud.

gg.

It was a bug.

Pretty sure mesmer bugs are still there meanwhile…but it’s ok since mesmer is op…lulz

Sorry bro, I doubt this patch will make mesmer viable again for tpvp. However you can still faceroll ppl in hotjoin, hurray!

Already went back to thief 2 days ago, mesmers are falling out of meta with every patch, portal alone is not enough for being a good choice in teams since outside portal mesmers are pretty much useless atm…no future for something that is going to explode for conditions as soon as he gets on a point and 40 cd on nf is not gonna change this situation..but yeah we can be pro in hotzerg yay…before being ganked by the incoming zerg with his 374 minions and 126 birds, dogs and kitten with at least 2 thieves spamming hs like if there’s no tomorrow on everything remotely similar to a mesmer…

pajamaboi.9534:

Consider the following two theoretical situations, and decide which would be better:

Your hypothetical is a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as the false dilemma or the excluded middle. It assumes that only two eventualities are possible when in fact there could be other alternatives.

However if I personally had to choose I would choose thereotical situation 1. I would rather see every single top level player quit if it meant that there would be a thriving middle and lower level. I believe it’s far more important to cater to the casual, semi-serious crowd than the hardcore crowd because they by definition must outnumber the top level/hardcore crowd.

I believe that the absence of a broad playerbase is the ultimate evil for a game. It means that the middle and lower tiers disappear and no one has anyone play against except maybe at the higher level tiers. I believe that the absence of a broad playerbase combined with the absence of key features like solo queue and an extremely protective matchmaking system are far more likely be to driving away more players than the absence of balance at the highest levels of play because by definition only a small number of people are even capable of playing at the highest levels of play.

If I were a developer my main concern would be broad market appeal, not niche market appeal.

EDIT: To put it another way, if we imagine a scenario where every top level player quits we’re only talking about losing a few hundred people at most. If we talk about the middle and lower level shrinking we’re probably talking in the thousands. If you were a developer which scenario would you fear more? I know that as a player I see the second scenario as the least desirable outcome.

Israel.7056:

pajamaboi.9534:

Consider the following two theoretical situations, and decide which would be better:

Your hypothetical is a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as the false dilemma or the excluded middle. It assumes that only two eventualities are possible when in fact there could be other alternatives.

However if I personally had to choose I would choose thereotical situation 1. I would rather see every single top level player quit if it meant that there would be a thriving middle and lower level. I believe it’s far more important to cater to the casual, semi-serious crowd than the hardcore crowd because they by definition must outnumber the top level/hardcore crowd.

I believe that the absence of a broad playerbase is the ultimate evil for a game. It means that the middle and lower tiers disappear and no one has anyone play against except maybe at the higher level tiers. I believe that the absence of a broad playerbase combined with the absence of key features like solo queue and an extremely protective matchmaking system are far more likely be to driving away more players than the absence of balance at the highest levels of play because by definition only a small number of people are even capable of playing at the highest levels of play.

If I were a developer my main concern would be broad market appeal, not niche market appeal.

It may be extreme but what other alternatives are there? Is there any MMORPG out there with good overall balance at every level of play? I honestly don’t know of one, but if you do, I’d be more than happy to be proven wrong.

Also, I was under the impression, perhaps falsely so, that they were trying to make their structured PVP into an e-sport. If this is not the case, then it’s fine. As you say, it would be much better to appeal to the casual player. But if they are trying to make their sPVP into an e-sport, then they have no choice but to listen to the top players. And then let the casual player have fun in PVE or WvW. I don’t believe it’s a realistic goal to try to make your PVP into an e-sport while also having it cater to the casual player, at least not at first. Once it does develop into a big deal and draws more attention, then that’s another situation entirely. Then you get to make tiers of play and match players based on a rating/skill system, but that’s quite a ways off. So my opinion is that they should grab the top teams and work together with them. Make this somewhat more objective by taking, say, the top three finishers at the next tournament. However, again, this is only if they actually do care about making this competitive.

pajamaboi.9534:

It may be extreme but what other alternatives are there? Is there any MMORPG out there with good overall balance at every level of play? I honestly don’t know of one, but if you do, I’d be more than happy to be proven wrong.

I honestly don’t know. All the MMOs I’ve played were very gear based. GW2 is the first game I’ve played where class balance matters more than gear. Aion, Rift and SWTOR all had flavor of the month builds when I was playing them but the gear disparity among players tended to exacerbate the problem and make balancing even more difficult. Just because I’m not personally aware of an alternative doesn’t mean there might not be one. I definitely don’t know everything.

As to the developer’s intentions for the game I can only speculate. They have at times stated that they’d like to see GW2 become an e-sport but then they have multiple game modes that they also have to service to maintain their playerbase. I think they should probably give up on the whole e-sport thing and just try to make the middle to lower levels happy but that’s just my opinion.

“there is the hardcore 1% that cannot be wrong then there it’s the casual 99% scum that contribute nothing important and are incapable of rational thought and objective analysis”

This is what I am getting off a lot of posts here. What happened to any middle ground between the pro and the casual? More importantly, why is the opinion of anyone who is not the 1% invalidated?

To be honest all what you have to care is balancing around high level gameplay.
If you start to balance around casual play you either abandon builds or entire classes from Tournament (see D/D thieves) or you overbuff them to a completly broken state (see necromancers)