Guild Wars 2

u lose cos one dc? what happen next patch?

One dc to blame, but for now all the team get punished just caus one dc… may be a fix next patch??

You get dishonor and have to sit for a period of time. Take a look at the blog posts and Evan’s comments in this forum. They will explain it better.

I mean what happen for the team with only 4 ppl and lose? they lose their time and stats … No compensation???

Couldn’t it just allow someone already in que to join by giving someone qued up a message to join in a on ongoing match?

SaintSnow.6593:

Couldn’t it just allow someone already in que to join by giving someone qued up a message to join in a on ongoing match?

“You have the option to now join an outnumbered team in a match currently in progress.”

1.) Volunteer (maybe get a bonus at match end? similar to volunteer already?)

2.) No thanks.

Hey Justin,
if u have a dc on your team, u will ultimately lose or atleast the chances of u winning drop dramatically.
So how to compensate the people that are left to fight a losing battle?
I think it would be a nice gesture to reduce the amount of ladder points the still playing people on the team with a dc by 1.
This could be done by simply increasing the parameter(that is being returned to the system/ladder) of the team(that had a dc) by 1 if the value that would be returned is <0 (or <(-1) if u want to be really sure that it isnt exploitable).
Giving +1 to the return value would open up the possibility of abuse, like people paying others to leave at the end of a match to gain more ladderpoints, i know its a sad thought but people are bad by nature.

Also sorry if my english sucks its not my native language.

As far as ratings go, when deciding the “handicap” for a team for determination of expected score, it could factor in the period of time during which the match was uneven (even in 30s or 1 minute increments). This might take some time to implement, and the data gained during the testing season should be helpful!

Justin ODell.9517:

SaintSnow.6593:

Couldn’t it just allow someone already in que to join by giving someone qued up a message to join in a on ongoing match?

The system will do that if someone declines or fails to confirm for the match.

I don’t think we want to do that for mid-match DCs. It would means pulling a player into a match in progress, which can be disorienting. There is also a good chance they’d be put on the losing team as the other team has had an advantage while this is happening. This just wouldn’t be fair to that player. Sure we could ask, but what if no one says yes?

Also, what do we do with the player that DC’d? Do they get dishonor? Do we give them a grace period?

What about the other players? Do we keep them idle until a replacement is found? How long do we wait? What happens after that?

There are other options as well. We could just cancel the match and no one gets ladder credit.

It might be doable, but we’d need a good user experience for all involved.

I agree with you, i think putting a new player in a match in progress is a bad idea for many reasons.

If someone has a DC during the game i think he needs a grace period (like 2 min) where you can try to reconnect without penalty. If he can’t reconnect, he has the penalty (dishonor + loss).

To handle a 4vs5 during the game i think a good system it would be “freeze” a player who is not in combat in the other team (or a dead player, frozen in the base, marking a frozen rotation) and mantain the match in equal number until the disconnected player can come back in the game. Other games use this system and work pretty well, so i think it would be a great system for GW2.

With this patch i think we’ll see a lot of less AFK at beginning but there will be always disconnected people during the game and a 4vs5 for some minutes. Besides that, the new dishonor system + automatic loss for DC doesn’t incentivate people to reconnect, so this is an area that needs some changes (first of all i’ll add a grace time window + the frozen system in the future).

If putting the game on “pause” it’s to hard to do, probably a “frozen” system it would be more easier .

Like in the event of a 4v5 the opposite team has one member put in queue either right away or on death and then when someone else is downed the member in queue enters and thus maintaining an 4v4/even match until the player either returns or the game ends.

I know this has been said a lot but I feel another persons voice will help push for a great change.

I don’t think forcing another player that didn’t disconnect to be frozen is fair at all. 4v5’s aren’t either, but people’s team compositions work certain ways. If your bunker dies at mid due to spike and is frozen in queue because of a disconnect, your team’s whole battle plan may have to change, especially if the classes are glassy or too evasive to hold a point. 4v5’s surely suck but pulling another person out of the match is punishing them for another person’s internet issues. I know we want to do this fairly but I don’t think that’s the way. Maybe if it was voluntary, but each player’s build isn’t equal, nor is any person’s mechanical skill. I hope we just have changes to the ladder and rewards to deal with 4v5 scenarios without it being so vulnerable that some guy can take a dive so his teammates can keep their ladder positions in a game they know they’ll lose.

Frozing someone is a very bad idea which would be the base of tons of exploits…
(choose a 4v4 or 3v3 strong comp or dc as soon as strategical player is dead)
I feel the problem is simple :
remaining people should benefit from the ratio of time they were not at 5 in term of ladder evolution. A mix of their score at the end of the game and this ratio time.

Points lost = Standard point lost × team score/ennemy score × teamates cumulated time played / ennemy cumulated time played

Another nice tool would be a kind of pause for 50 sec max in case of a dc. Once reconnected everybody respawn (with a nice alert message before) at the position they were when dc was detected with same state (hp cooldowns score conditions…) . Of course only one chance by player to zvoid exploits.

Justin ODell.9517:

SaintSnow.6593:

Couldn’t it just allow someone already in que to join by giving someone qued up a message to join in a on ongoing match?

Also, what do we do with the player that DC’d? Do they get dishonor? Do we give them a grace period?

This is one of my biggest concerns regarding the new patch. As far as I understood, if a player disconnects during the game, he automatically gets dishonour and a loss in the leaderbords.

Given my example from today, I dc’d mid match but came back to the game within less than 30 seconds. Racked up some good points before, caught up after coming back, contributed to the match and won. There is no reason for me to be penalised for it. What I would expect if a grace period of, for example, 1 minute, that allows you to get back into the game during that time without taking the penalty.

On another note, regarding the 4-man teams and afk’ers: Will we ever get expanded list of reasons for in-game reports? This is a constant struggle not only in PvP but in game generally. At the moment, AFKing in PvP is neither discouraged nor penalised, but it is also not easy to report. LFG system abuse? Not really. Hacking? Nope. None of the choices in the reporting tool are even close, yet there is still no option for AFK / leeching.

I still don’t understand why you don’t just bar entry into the match on different classes. This whole DH system seems to be over the top just to prevent people swapping classes mid game.

Also why not vote people in positive/negative way at the end of a match if they’re not in your party? Other games have a rating system, and its no bad thing to encourage cooperation.

I think the best solution is to recalculate prediction rules.

For example, I go into a TeamQ game with premade team and have a 81% odds of victory.

One of my teammates then proceed to DC with scores being 300-100 to my team.

After a grace period (maybe 1 minute) to allow for dc-er to rejoin, kick the dc-er from the game and recalculate odds of victory based on the player ranks and the current score for the team with 4 people. The team with 5 people should keep original odds of victory. In this example, the odds of victory for the 4v5 team now reduces to 30%.

The dc-er suffers full penalty (-3) from loss as calculated at the start of the game and gains dishonour to prevent an alt being used to boost teammate ratings through losses.

Assuming the other team wins, they receive full ladder points (+3)

The 4 players on the losing team receives a softened blow from the loss depending on how valiantly they fought in the 4v5 at at 30% win prediction.

chungiee.8764:

I think the best solution is to recalculate prediction rules.

For example, I go into a TeamQ game with premade team and have a 81% odds of victory.

One of my teammates then proceed to DC with scores being 300-100 to my team.

After a grace period (maybe 1 minute) to allow for dc-er to rejoin, kick the dc-er from the game and recalculate odds of victory based on the player ranks and the current score for the team with 4 people. The team with 5 people should keep original odds of victory. In this example, the odds of victory for the 4v5 team now reduces to 30%.

The dc-er suffers full penalty (-3) from loss as calculated at the start of the game and gains dishonour to prevent an alt being used to boost teammate ratings through losses.

Assuming the other team wins, they receive full ladder points (+3)

The 4 players on the losing team receives a softened blow from the loss depending on how valiantly they fought in the 4v5 at at 30% win prediction.

good suggestion

Justin ODell.9517:

No, nothing Dec 2nd, other than all the ways we are trying to prevent the 4v5. What ways would you guys like to see this?

I believe some people suggested queuing respawns to compensate, others suggested adjusting the prediction rules. What ever we do, if anything, would need to be exploit free, which makes the problem a lot harder.

Any chance of making it so the 5th person can’t leave the starting zone/area until one of the other 4 members of his team dies? That way it’d still be 4v4 with the 4th player on the one side swapping out with others of his/her team. If more die at once, make it FIFO (thus would have to keep track of the death order)?

No you can’t do that then you would have people kittening about their rankings because they had to watch some worst player na/eu get to play instead of them and that is clearly the reason why they lost that match.

Justin ODell.9517:

No, nothing Dec 2nd, other than all the ways we are trying to prevent the 4v5. What ways would you guys like to see this?

I believe some people suggested queuing respawns to compensate, others suggested adjusting the prediction rules. What ever we do, if anything, would need to be exploit free, which makes the problem a lot harder.

simple solution:
If match ends in 4v5 – result of game does not affect leaderboard ratings or MMR. The whole game “did not happen”.

That’s it. Simple as that. Xv5 is now “balanced”. It sucks, but it isn’t going to negatively affect you.

Yes i know, sometimes the 4 man team step up their game and win, but this happens less then once every 20 4v5’s from my experience.

EDIT:
A lot of people are suggesting elaborate calculations that compensates for the loss of a match. However, in the interest of our well being (our ranking) and the developers well being (workload). Making a system that simply voids all scores tied to a game ending in Xv5 is simpler, easier to set up, even more “gentle” to the side with the DC’ing player, least of all. It does not further punish the DC’ing player.

Given the random instabilities of the PvP servers (yesterday i had random freezes lasting up to 18 seconds followed by errors, and for once i can say it was NOT my internet causing this) we should not further punish players that may or may not be at fault. Arenanet does have plenty of stability and optimization issues they need to sort out. A DC should not be a punishable offense, it is in more cases then not (except WvW) an unfortunate event outside player control.

How about they way Dota2 handels it? When you have a dc on your team the guy disconnected has 5minutes time to reconnect, after that the game wont get into statistics and is free to leave. Since Dota matches take 3x as long as a GW2 match, I’d set it to 3 mins (even then you have huge disadvantage).

Addiontaly instead of giving dishonored to dc’ed players (it’s not always intentional), they can only queue unranked matches and their next 3 matches wont give them any rewards (rank/track progression) and they musn’t leave in these 3 matches…

There is a solution.

If game ends up with 4v5, no change will happen to the 9 players – their rating stays the same and the game doesn’t count to any statistics, because it was played with unfair team compositions.

They get PvP experience and all the loot stuff because they worked for it, but nothing will be taken out or added to the ranking attributes (won/lost games count) of the winning or losing side.

The leaver(s) gets dishonor (with the simulation like it is now, lets say 3 times within certain amount of time will exclude that player from further games), because if you do disconnect, most likely, if the matter is Internet connection then you will know it and you should be aware of wasting your and other player’s time and not queuing after first or second disconnection.

More or less this direction is fair for each side. Sure the winners would like to have it counted, because they wasted their time, so they get the reward tracks and stuff, but they know that it wasn’t fully equal and they have to agree on not getting any ranking advance.

Correct me, expose it wider, this seems to be the right way.

josh.7390:

How about they way Dota2 handels it? When you have a dc on your team the guy disconnected has 5minutes time to reconnect, after that the game wont get into statistics and is free to leave. Since Dota matches take 3x as long as a GW2 match, I’d set it to 3 mins (even then you have huge disadvantage).

Addiontaly instead of giving dishonored to dc’ed players (it’s not always intentional), they can only queue unranked matches and their next 3 matches wont give them any rewards (rank/track progression) and they musn’t leave in these 3 matches…

Dota is a MOBA, the whole Dota match is in most cases “won or lost” during character selection due to how the hard counter system of Dota works. I used to play Dota, and unfortunately, even if you were to display near god like skill, certain toons will smash you, even if the player playing them is just average.
Guild Wars is not designed in such a way, nor could the game handle being paused several times (like in Dota), or for extended periods of time, because that would seriously mess up the match-up Queuing time.

You got to look at it this way; active Dota players is around 1-2.5 millions globally (probably much higher these days), active Guild Wars 2 PVP players online in any region (EU/NA/China) at any given time is a few thousand at the very very best.
Now segregate these few thousands by MMR ranking, and you start splitting them into smaller and smaller groups, then split them into “hotjoin heroes, SoloQ and TeamQ” by doing this you active target group, as to which you need 10 players for a match, is down to a two-three hundred players during peak hours. If you were to pause matches, the already not too quick match-up queuing would be even slower and possibly also less accurate.

johnsonade.9547:

I don’t think forcing another player that didn’t disconnect to be frozen is fair at all. 4v5’s aren’t either, but people’s team compositions work certain ways. If your bunker dies at mid due to spike and is frozen in queue because of a disconnect, your team’s whole battle plan may have to change, especially if the classes are glassy or too evasive to hold a point. 4v5’s surely suck but pulling another person out of the match is punishing them for another person’s internet issues. I know we want to do this fairly but I don’t think that’s the way. Maybe if it was voluntary, but each player’s build isn’t equal, nor is any person’s mechanical skill. I hope we just have changes to the ladder and rewards to deal with 4v5 scenarios without it being so vulnerable that some guy can take a dive so his teammates can keep their ladder positions in a game they know they’ll lose.

There is a rotation for the frozen guy, this means when another guy dies, he takes his place “frozen” and the other guy is free to play. You can do this rotation when people die or after X min if people is not in combat for example. Basically noone stays in the base forever. And you can’t schedule who is the guy that start to stay at beginning in the base frozen, it’s random, so i don’t see big chance to exploit this system.

Of course you need to consider that a 4vs5 is an emergency situation, it’s not a standard game. It’s a lttile sacrifice for a better match.

Other system, like add a pause to the game, forces 9 people to wait X min. the DCed guy, so i don’t think exist a perfect system, there is always a trade off.

How about something like this…

Player’s should have a “grace period” in order to re-join the match. If he successfully rejoins within the grace period, then no penalty is assessed and the match continues.

If the player does not return in time, the disconnected player suffers the Dishonor penalty and can no longer rejoin the match.

Now for the rest of the players….

If the disconnection occurred within the first X minutes(5 minutes??) of the match, then the 4 man team has the option to “resign” the match and will suffer no rank penalty. (The match is considered “Null” as far as the 4 player team rankings.) The match ends and the 5 man team gets a win.

If the 4 man team chooses to continue the match, then the rankings are adjusted to whatever the outcome.

If the disconnect happens AFTER 5 minutes into the match, then the match is still considered valid and rankings are adjusted whatever the outcome.

Basically, the team that did not get a disconnected should not be penalized for the other teams misfortune. This also prevents exploitation. If a team is losing, there shouldn’t be a way for them to end the match prematurely and not suffer a loss.

Justin ODell.9517:

SaintSnow.6593:

Couldn’t it just allow someone already in que to join by giving someone qued up a message to join in a on ongoing match?

The system will do that if someone declines or fails to confirm for the match.

I don’t think we want to do that for mid-match DCs. It would means pulling a player into a match in progress, which can be disorienting. There is also a good chance they’d be put on the losing team as the other team has had an advantage while this is happening. This just wouldn’t be fair to that player. Sure we could ask, but what if no one says yes?

Also, what do we do with the player that DC’d? Do they get dishonor? Do we give them a grace period?

What about the other players? Do we keep them idle until a replacement is found? How long do we wait? What happens after that?

There are other options as well. We could just cancel the match and no one gets ladder credit.

It might be doable, but we’d need a good user experience for all involved.

GW1 had a /surrender option, and a timer to auto end a match early if teams were unbalanced.

1) allow players in queue to join match in progress. give them a boost or something for it. player that joins does not have it go towards their ranking.

2) games that end in 4v5 do not count for ranking.

3) you could give the 4 man team a stat boost that makes it a bit more even.

4) grace period to rejoin match (not all DCs are on purpose)

In pve land there is the mega server, and if you are grouped with someone on q different server (not map) you can right click the player and request to join their server. This is great when people get a dc from say, killing tequtle and rejoing the server after you logged back in from a dc. Can something like this be added? I mean in pvp you join a “team” but cant you guys make it like a party/group?

TBH I didn’t read the other’s responses but a few things that I have thought of would be a reduced respawn timer, a reduction in the time needed to capture a point, or a buff similar to the one given in Forest of the Niflhel.

If a disconnect happens just make the match results for the losing team null. This way is doesn’t count against the win loss ratio.

risenlord.2035:

If a disconnect happens just make the match results for the losing team null. This way is doesn’t count against the win loss ratio.

Exploitable.

“Guys we are about to lose and our results will suffer, whos gonna d/c?”

you’re not understanding the way the dec 2 changes will affect people that disconnect.

GOSU.9574:

risenlord.2035:

If a disconnect happens just make the match results for the losing team null. This way is doesn’t count against the win loss ratio.

Exploitable.

“Guys we are about to lose and our results will suffer, whos gonna d/c?”

It is not, if you have read about dishonor updates. Nobody would disconnect on purpose, knowing the results.

Like I have wrote in my previous post on this thread, simple solution:

Two teams will finish the unbalanced game. It will be most likely faster than the regular 5v5, because the stronger team will be overpowered and gain points faster.
No hotjoin, nothing to change current game until it finishes. At the end of the match, summary giving pvp experience points as players earned them and the loot as a reward for time and effort given. Then unbalanced game will result with no attributes advance – in positive or negative way. People get what they deserved. The losing team doesn’t win but doesn’t get any negative outcome of the situation. The winning team gets only what they earned, cause there was not their fault in having weaker enemy and they made the effort to win anyway. The leaver gets punishment as it was described in the news article and can not join any further games for certain amount of time.

Pros:

• Winning team gets what they earned by winning [loot, reward tracks progress]
• None of teams gets remark on the ranking table and it’s connected summaries [advance on the ranking table, wins/losses count, experience gain(that last one optionally)]
• Game finishes faster, as one of the team will have advantage on gaining points
• There is no need to implement additional features with hot-joins, frozen time or invitation of another players to replace the empty slot – nobody likes to join already set match or nobody likes to wait until fresh player would join, additionally giving any boost to the joining one would be not fair towards others
• Disconnecting player will not disturb in further games, while being dishonored
• It will stop players from going afk while they are queued or from any other activity that leads to unbalanced match, because of the strong punishments
• It will fill up games with dedicated players

I am not the best at writing, but I hope you can agree that it is a good direction.

Abaddon.2105:

It is not, if you have read about dishonor updates. Nobody would disconnect on purpose, knowing the results.

Explain to me why a few minutes of penalty would disuade someone? We aren’t talking about the same person constantly d/cing here. I have read the blog, did you? Dishonor will build up on an account, initially the penalty is very, very mild. Elaborate on what I obviously didn’t understand about a 1 time d/c.

Ya this is so stupid, If you have bad internet than DONT kittenING PLAY tPVP period.

GOSU.9574:

Abaddon.2105:

It is not, if you have read about dishonor updates. Nobody would disconnect on purpose, knowing the results.

Explain to me why a few minutes of penalty would disuade someone? We aren’t talking about the same person constantly d/cing here. I have read the blog, did you? Dishonor will build up on an account, initially the penalty is very, very mild. Elaborate on what I obviously didn’t understand about a 1 time d/c.

What you missed is that the person who D/Cs will gain that dishonor as well as an immediate loss to their record, with a max -3 points instantly applied during any rated match.

Dishonour should be removed. If there’s someone playing necro/engineer I deserve to rob him of the kill and F12 out. It’s not dishonour if the opposition is using dishonourable techniques.

Goliath.7546:

Dishonour should be removed. If there’s someone playing necro/engineer I deserve to rob him of the kill and F12 out. It’s not dishonour if the opposition is using dishonourable techniques.

XD

Goliath.7546:

Dishonour should be removed. If there’s someone playing necro/engineer I deserve to rob him of the kill and F12 out. It’s not dishonour if the opposition is using dishonourable techniques.

And people like you are the reason why we need such a system

Goliath.7546:

Dishonour should be removed. If there’s someone playing necro/engineer I deserve to rob him of the kill and F12 out. It’s not dishonour if the opposition is using dishonourable techniques.

I know you’re just kidding but right now my teeth are grinding sparks lol. Dishonorable tactics would be… I dunno hacking? Doing things that break the terms of service? Maybe not playing an engineer is dishonorable! I mean look at us we’re awesome! We can’t be destroyed at all by immobilization or condition bombing or high crit damage melee attacks because we have the most armor, most hp and so much CC we’ll adjust your computer chair for you digitally (or your stool ;D). Why everyone isn’t playing engineer is just the quintessential question of the year. Necros really should get the shaft though! No ladder points for OP Lich skills!

Game starts, but the clock hasn’t reached 30 sec before 1 player leaves the game – automatic remake, that can happen only once and if the same thing happens next time the game system will just let the game continue.
When a player leaves mid-game (after 30 seconds) a 30 second grace period will start where all nodes take twice the time to award points. After this period if the team is still not full, the ranked game will turn into a non-ranked game, therefore not affecting rating. The leaver will be punished with +1 loss, no matter what the outcome of the game is. This way it’s not worth exploiting to avoid a loss and players can still have fun playing and finishing the game without being punished for losing.

chungiee.8764:

I think the best solution is to recalculate prediction rules.
[…]
The 4 players on the losing team receives a softened blow from the loss depending on how valiantly they fought in the 4v5 at at 30% win prediction.

I guess that 30% is an example, but I think this is the best suggestion in terms of ladder.

Also, how about a small compensation in rank points for a loss? Like 100 extra rank/reward points?

One could argue that a DC at 450-300 doesn’t count as much as a DC at 100-50, so maybe have a time limit for bonus to trigger at 12:00 mark (3 minutes into the match)?

I would not in any case affect game progression in terms of points or anything.

Justin ODell.9517:

SaintSnow.6593:

Couldn’t it just allow someone already in que to join by giving someone qued up a message to join in a on ongoing match?

The system will do that if someone declines or fails to confirm for the match.

I don’t think we want to do that for mid-match DCs. It would means pulling a player into a match in progress, which can be disorienting. There is also a good chance they’d be put on the losing team as the other team has had an advantage while this is happening. This just wouldn’t be fair to that player. Sure we could ask, but what if no one says yes?

Also, what do we do with the player that DC’d? Do they get dishonor? Do we give them a grace period?

What about the other players? Do we keep them idle until a replacement is found? How long do we wait? What happens after that?

There are other options as well. We could just cancel the match and no one gets ladder credit.

It might be doable, but we’d need a good user experience for all involved.

What about what this guy below just adviced? I guess most of us would like a solution like this. Because we all know… is all about leaderboard…

josh.7390:

How about they way Dota2 handels it? When you have a dc on your team the guy disconnected has 5minutes time to reconnect, after that the game wont get into statistics and is free to leave. Since Dota matches take 3x as long as a GW2 match, I’d set it to 3 mins (even then you have huge disadvantage).

Addiontaly instead of giving dishonored to dc’ed players (it’s not always intentional), they can only queue unranked matches and their next 3 matches wont give them any rewards (rank/track progression) and they musn’t leave in these 3 matches…

Justin ODell.9517:

There are other options as well. We could just cancel the match and no one gets ladder credit.

This is the solution. Not fair, not is competitive. You won your honor, track points. But not the ladder’s position.

wait, if someone on my team dc´s and logs back in he can´t join the game again?

Blackjack.5621:

wait, if someone on my team dc´s and logs back in he can´t join the game again?

He can join the game. It’s just an automatic -3 (loss) for him.
If his team doesn’t want to scorn him, he’d join back immediately.

Losing rating while winning sounds fun.

Justin ODell.9517:

Saiyan.1704:

He can join the game. It’s just an automatic -3 (loss) for him.

-3 to -1. Depending on their odds of victory.

And that is clearly a problem with the new system. Instead of offering motivation for a DC player to log back into the game and try to push a victory, it does the opposite. It effectively tells them to screw up. In other words, temporary 4v5 situations turn into full time 4v5 matches. It makes an existing problem worse.