Guild Wars 2

Why on earth does the pull part on this skill still pulls you 1200 range WHILE your evading?? and not just a knockdown or just nothing?

There is NO skill that could do this (this pull doesnt even need LoS!)

And for all those who say it should work like that because its inside your chest… well there are other skill that does pretty much the same even on guardian greatsword:

-Binding Blade, same stuff.. also a blade inside your chest, what happens if you trigger the pull on evade?? the target only gets knocked down for short second and does not get pulled 1200 range.

I dont care about there traps or whatever DH has, but stuff like this should be fixed!

Why should you be given a second chance when you failed to evade it the first time? No skill does that, its called play and counterplay. You can evade the first spear, if you don’t you have to stab the hit or break the spear. That’s game. And honestly thats pretty forgiving since you have so many ways to counter it.

Research wise binding blade does not pull 1200 range, nor travel 1200 range, nor does it trigger if pulled when the target is slightly outside the hitbox.

@Gwaihir.1745 stop defending a broken mechanic

same was with taunt on ranger pets, you couldnt dodge it and anet fixed it cause its absolutely broken

if a thief gets hit by the f1, thats his insta death cause he gets pulled into traps and into longbow ground attacks

every attack in this game should be dodgeable, otherwise other classes will have an automatic disadvantage (speaking in general)

Lukas.7159:

@Gwaihir.1745 stop defending a broken mechanic

same was with taunt on ranger pets, you couldnt dodge it and anet fixed it cause its absolutely broken

if a thief gets hit by the f1, thats his insta death cause he gets pulled into traps and into longbow ground attacks

every attack in this game should be dodgeable, otherwise other classes will have an automatic disadvantage (speaking in general)

Or quit complaining about a mechanic you fail to counter?

Every attack in this game is dodgeable. You had the chance to dodge it. You failed. Any good thief can range break it easily. What you want is a second chance that holds your hand promoting bad gameplay.

I think he just wants this skill to follow the logic of every other two-part skill and give the opportunity to dodge to avoid the second part, even if there is still a lesser effect (like Guardian GS 5 still knocking down if you dodge the pull)

Consistency is always a good thing.

It has very low casttime/fast traveltime, which makes it very hard to dodge though. Too hard to avoid for such a powerful ability imo. It is only bearable because of all that passive crap and high sustain on most meta builds, which is a bad solution and not very fun to play/play against.

Foefaller.1082:

I think he just wants this skill to follow the logic of every other two-part skill and give the opportunity to dodge to avoid the second part, even if there is still a lesser effect (like Guardian GS 5 still knocking down if you dodge the pull)

Consistency is always a good thing.

Didn’t you just argue against consistency? Tether skills in gw2 only allow dodging the projectile, not the pull. Youre arguing to change one without changing them all.

Gwaihir.1745:

Why should you be given a second chance when you failed to evade it the first time? No skill does that, its called play and counterplay. You can evade the first spear, if you don’t you have to stab the hit or break the spear. That’s game. And honestly thats pretty forgiving since you have so many ways to counter it.

Research wise binding blade does not pull 1200 range, nor travel 1200 range, nor does it trigger if pulled when the target is slightly outside the hitbox.

If you think this is not broken and should stay then Anet should atleast make a better animation on the spear like they did with Pin down AND increasing its casttime from 1/4 to 1/2 or even 3/4 just like they did with Pin down also.

But even then i totally dont agree with your argument about: you had your chance to dodge the spear.. there are others skills out there that has a second effect wich does NOT work on evade.

Sorry but i find it bad you even want to defend this stuff in the game.

Gwaihir.1745:

Why should you be given a second chance when you failed to evade it the first time?

1/4sec cast time is not reasonably avoidable. The only way to avoid it is to guess at when it will be used. It’s unblockable, so you can’t stop it that way either.

nicknamenick.2437:

Gwaihir.1745:

Why should you be given a second chance when you failed to evade it the first time? No skill does that, its called play and counterplay. You can evade the first spear, if you don’t you have to stab the hit or break the spear. That’s game. And honestly thats pretty forgiving since you have so many ways to counter it.

Research wise binding blade does not pull 1200 range, nor travel 1200 range, nor does it trigger if pulled when the target is slightly outside the hitbox.

If you think this is not broken and should stay then Anet should atleast make a better animation on the spear like they did with Pin down AND increasing its casttime from 1/4 to 1/2 or even 3/4 just like they did with Pin down also.

But even then i totally dont agree with your argument about: you had your chance to dodge the spear.. there are others skills out there that has a second effect wich does NOT work on evade.

Sorry but i find it bad you even want to defend this stuff in the game.

Its pvp. Mistakes are punished; not walked away from.

Heres another argument for you. A stimulated reaction for a trained human has been calculated to be around 190 milliseconds. In a game environment this is believed to be higher, somewhere around 250 milliseconds. Now here the kicker: only the throw has a tell definable as visual stimuli; (and no I’m not saying that’s ok).
→ So, you would like to dodge a skill that casts before your reaction has had time to translate to your reflexive muscles. That’s dodge spamming and luck. Anticipate it? Maybe but your opponent is also anticipating you so that cancels out.

Also a less trained player has a much higher reaction time. Skill spamming does not promote good gameplay. Saying “I dodged an instant cast because I saw it coming” just sounds odd.

why, god, why are there always people that defend a broken mechanic

its a 0.25sec cast time and there is like no way you can dodge it, especially if a good pvper casts it after the enemy dodges (cause in higher tiers nobody double dodges)

okay im totally fine with getting hit by it, im even fine that its an unblockable attack that deals damage, applies burning, cripples, pirces enemies, has a range of 1200 AND only a short cd of 20secs

BUT if youre already not able to block the pull, at least make it dodgeable

I have said this a few times weeks ago.
You need to have on-demand invul or stability that is not on CD or you are doomed.

At least GS 5 tether has a spin animation before it goes out, so you actually don’t have an excuse after you’re caught. But F1 tether is instant with no indication that it’s going to happen, other than maybe a Test of Faith or you running away. All other instances are too unpredictable.

I think one thing that’ll help improve DH is reducing the strength of skills, but making them harder to counter. This will help make them more powerful against good players, but weaker against bad players.

So, what if Procession of Blades was made unblockable, but the damage is reduced? True Shot’s damage is reduced a bit, but you can move while casting it and the cast time is reduced. Hunter’s Ward is perfect as is. Deflecting Shot is fine honestly since it only knocks back with a trait.

Gwaihir.1745:

Its pvp. Mistakes are punished; not walked away from.

Not dodging an attack that can be cast in a quarter of a second without an obvious tell from 1200 range on a 20 second cooldown, on a class that has a ranged weapon justifies unblockable, unevadable hard CC if it connects?

Thank carefully about what you’re saying.

For reference: The Entangle elite has a minute cooldown, 600 range, and a 3/4 cast time for soft cc (and even that needs tuning because it’s bugged. ) .

you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.

I’d be okay with this if they made Hunter’s Verdict’s CD the same as Spear of Justice’s.

Kuya.6495:

you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.

Guardian has hard countered thief since 2013, and Spear of Justice being balanced won’t change that at all.

If you are losing to thieves on a DH it’s time to put on some serious practice and realize the problem is you

Kuya.6495:

you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.

Not having counter play? Timing IS counter play to that build. There is a punish frame in every evade. . . .

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Gwaihir.1745:

Its pvp. Mistakes are punished; not walked away from.

Not dodging an attack that can be cast in a quarter of a second without an obvious tell from 1200 range on a 20 second cooldown, on a class that has a ranged weapon justifies unblockable, unevadable hard CC if it connects?

Thank carefully about what you’re saying.

For reference: The Entangle elite has a minute cooldown, 600 range, and a 3/4 cast time for soft cc (and even that needs tuning because it’s bugged. ) .

20s cooldown? Research error. People who don’t understand mechanics aren’t allowed to balance games. The pull cd you complain about is much higher. Oops.
→ “On a class that has a ranged weapon.” What game are you playing that your class doesn’t have one?
→ I can make up a line like that about any class in the game.
→ A pull is not a hard cc. It does not prevent skill usage, knock you down, stun you, nor daze you.
→Entangle is amazing. Anytime you like I would gladly take it over the f1 pull. You conveniently forgot to mention it pulses bleeding, and immobilize every 1.5 seconds on 5 targets. This is so amazing ill even forget you are comparing two unlike skills just so I don’t offend my apples and oranges.

Yeh getting pulled whilst evading is pretty lame

A pull is hard CC. It interrupts you and prevents skill usage (with the exception of stun breaks and some instant skills). Entangle is amazing on paper, in reality it sucks against everything that isn’t a necro.

oscuro.9720:

Have you ever seen a dog dodge out of a leash?

Just going to repost this.

Gwaihir.1745:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Gwaihir.1745:

Its pvp. Mistakes are punished; not walked away from.

Not dodging an attack that can be cast in a quarter of a second without an obvious tell from 1200 range on a 20 second cooldown, on a class that has a ranged weapon justifies unblockable, unevadable hard CC if it connects?

Thank carefully about what you’re saying.

For reference: The Entangle elite has a minute cooldown, 600 range, and a 3/4 cast time for soft cc (and even that needs tuning because it’s bugged. ) .

20s cooldown? Research error. People who don’t understand mechanics aren’t allowed to balance games. The pull cd you complain about is much higher. Oops.
-> “On a class that has a ranged weapon.” What game are you playing that your class doesn’t have one?
-> I can make up a line like that about any class in the game.
-> A pull is not a hard cc. It does not prevent skill usage, knock you down, stun you, nor daze you.
->Entangle is amazing. Anytime you like I would gladly take it over the f1 pull. You conveniently forgot to mention it pulses bleeding, and immobilize every 1.5 seconds on 5 targets. This is so amazing ill even forget you are comparing two unlike skills just so I don’t offend my apples and oranges.

It’s not a very good comparison I agree, but why would you want Entangle? If you want to immobilize somebody in order to use AoE, you already have Scepter 3. I don’t really understand what use you’d have for Entangle on a DH. Unless you’re just expressing general preference?

I think it’s likely on Anet’s radar for many of the reasons people have gone over many times before. A cast time increase/slower chain velocity would allow for some better counterplay before chain attachment. Making it like Binding Blade where you can still pull a target mid-dodge but only a small distance could also help. I don’t think they should remove the evade interruption though – it’s nice to have something like this in the game.

Bearing in mind what a Dragonhunter is pulling the target into…Spear of Justice should just be a bit harder to land and have some more prominent tells.

Azukas.1426:

Kuya.6495:

you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.

Guardian has hard countered thief since 2013, and Spear of Justice being balanced won’t change that at all.

If you are losing to thieves on a DH it’s time to put on some serious practice and realize the problem is you

Nah friend, i multi class. It is only after having to put up with the cheese builds from thfs on my ele and necro, that i fully appreciate all the ways i can pile drive a thf straight into the ground using my dh.

Spear of justice is fine. Only class that relies on dodges for this to be a problem is thf and they deserve to get stomped by it.

Upon reading i came up into a conclusion that the main culprit was Evasion because it is too powerful while DH is the main antagonist and had/has a lot of binding skill upon wisely usage to lockup someone in distance or in cQc like (e.g Hunters Ward) class/profession that specialize into maximizing Vigor uptime therefore Thief was the main attraction w/o thinking others class consent.

I completely agree that as a punishment Escapist Absolution need a tool tip fixing. #schooled

Huskyboy.1053:

Gwaihir.1745:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Gwaihir.1745:

Its pvp. Mistakes are punished; not walked away from.

Not dodging an attack that can be cast in a quarter of a second without an obvious tell from 1200 range on a 20 second cooldown, on a class that has a ranged weapon justifies unblockable, unevadable hard CC if it connects?

Thank carefully about what you’re saying.

For reference: The Entangle elite has a minute cooldown, 600 range, and a 3/4 cast time for soft cc (and even that needs tuning because it’s bugged. ) .

20s cooldown? Research error. People who don’t understand mechanics aren’t allowed to balance games. The pull cd you complain about is much higher. Oops.
-> “On a class that has a ranged weapon.” What game are you playing that your class doesn’t have one?
-> I can make up a line like that about any class in the game.
-> A pull is not a hard cc. It does not prevent skill usage, knock you down, stun you, nor daze you.
->Entangle is amazing. Anytime you like I would gladly take it over the f1 pull. You conveniently forgot to mention it pulses bleeding, and immobilize every 1.5 seconds on 5 targets. This is so amazing ill even forget you are comparing two unlike skills just so I don’t offend my apples and oranges.

It’s not a very good comparison I agree, but why would you want Entangle? If you want to immobilize somebody in order to use AoE, you already have Scepter 3. I don’t really understand what use you’d have for Entangle on a DH. Unless you’re just expressing general preference?

I’d take it because scepter 3 can easily miss and is single target. Entangle pulses, which forces usage of important skills to break free. If they can’t break free that’s 5s of damage they’re sitting in.

Let’s not forget how it pulls you high in the air so you die to fall damage, pulls you through the walls so you are stuck inside objects and have to relog, you also can’t use stun break while being pulled because the game thinks you are in the air while being pulled. Yep, totally balanced and not buggy at all for basically instant cast 1200 pull.

Kuya.6495:

Azukas.1426:

Kuya.6495:

you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.

Guardian has hard countered thief since 2013, and Spear of Justice being balanced won’t change that at all.

If you are losing to thieves on a DH it’s time to put on some serious practice and realize the problem is you

Nah friend, i multi class. It is only after having to put up with the cheese builds from thfs on my ele and necro, that i fully appreciate all the ways i can pile drive a thf straight into the ground using my dh.

Spear of justice is fine. Only class that relies on dodges for this to be a problem is thf and they deserve to get stomped by it.

There is nothing “cheese” about a meta thief build. The only thing I’d honestly give you is Pulmonary Impact vs Necro but you aren’t even talking about that. The actual build that works isn’t a “perma” evade build but more of a decap +1 build. If you are talking about a non meta build that actually hurts the thief’s team more than helps than I dunno wtf you are complaining about since you are literally facing a 5v4.5

I’m confused as to what your issue is so please explain further.

War Never Change….

Dodge the initial pull. Not entirely hard to do and it has a travel time.

Yes let’s talk “logic”. You should be able to dodge a kittening chain already wrapped around you.

love people mentioning the 0.1 sec travel time of spear, hahaha

there is no way to dodge it except on prediction

Its not pull, its a chain leash, its like saying hey you cant pull a dog cause he dodged your pull while on a chain leash….lol. Ppl are just funny with those complains.

I just read that it’s unblockable. I’ve seen other guardians block it with F3 lol.
Anyways as it’s been said: You can dodge the intial throw. If I put a rope on your tummy and pull when you try to dodge or w/e you do, you’ll be pulled as well.
Also there are some exceptions even in PvE of things that are not dodge-able (not talking about instant kill attacks).
By the way if you get hit by it as a thief your best bet would be to grow distance. It has a limited distance. Also I think stun breaks might be able to cancel the pull.

I feel like I should strike my initial post.

The more comments I read, the more it sounds like that the issue isn’t the unavoidable pull, it’s that Spear of Justice itself is a 1/4 sec cast time that you have to be prescient to dodge.

And I think prescient is the right word, because your average human reaction time to visual stimulus is 1/4 of a second. Add in latency and by the time your brain registers that your opponent is using Spear of Justice, you have already been hit with Spear of Justice.

Lucentfir.7430:

oscuro.9720:

Have you ever seen a dog dodge out of a leash?

Just going to repost this.

You never had a dog? I saw that multiple times with multiple dogs. Most of the time when there was a bath, doctor or kitten* in heat involved

*why does it show the corect english word for female dog as ‘kitten’?

Tiefsee.3647:

Lucentfir.7430:

oscuro.9720:

Have you ever seen a dog dodge out of a leash?

Just going to repost this.

You never had a dog? I saw that multiple times with multiple dogs. Most of the time when there was a bath, doctor or kitten* in heat involved

*why does it show the corect english word for female dog as ‘kitten’?

Sensitive censorship.

I don’t see anything wrong with the reaction time. If you do not react fast, you can still cancel out the pull or go ranged. Or you start your invul (on war) overload (on ele) reaper form (on necro) etc. Stability might block it too I suppose.

That is why as a thief i always have shadowstep ready when i get hit by the f1. You can also run away because it only pulls at a certain distance. Hide behind a wall or LoS and lastly dont get hit. Also fyi taunt and fear is condi so you can cleanse it with signet of agility. Goodbye taunt.

Lukas.7159:

why, god, why are there always people that defend a broken mechanic

its a 0.25sec cast time and there is like no way you can dodge it, especially if a good pvper casts it after the enemy dodges (cause in higher tiers nobody double dodges)

okay im totally fine with getting hit by it, im even fine that its an unblockable attack that deals damage, applies burning, cripples, pirces enemies, has a range of 1200 AND only a short cd of 20secs

BUT if youre already not able to block the pull, at least make it dodgeable

It’s not broken. You have plenty of ways of getting out of this once you are tethered as a thief.

It’s consistent. All tether skills in this game work the same way.

Lexander.4579:

love people mentioning the 0.1 sec travel time of spear, hahaha

there is no way to dodge it except on prediction

Pretty much, amid all the shenanigans you have to observe during a fight, the quarter second tether attack is literally on the average human reaction time.

So unless you are literally superhuman, you aren’t going to recognize the tether as it is getting shot, you are going to predict it instead.

I am not particularly complaining about DH though, as a Warrior I have tools to deal with them mono to mono or in a group fight. I can imagine the thief rage given it is yet another tool guardians get to shut down thieves, but let’s be real, if DH weren’t around, Thief would be broken beyond belief.

GreenNekoHaunt.8527:

Tiefsee.3647:

Lucentfir.7430:

oscuro.9720:

Have you ever seen a dog dodge out of a leash?

Just going to repost this.

You never had a dog? I saw that multiple times with multiple dogs. Most of the time when there was a bath, doctor or kitten* in heat involved

*why does it show the corect english word for female dog as ‘kitten’?

Sensitive censorship.

I don’t see anything wrong with the reaction time. If you do not react fast, you can still cancel out the pull or go ranged. Or you start your invul (on war) overload (on ele) reaper form (on necro) etc. Stability might block it too I suppose.

This. People here are throwing out random ideas when they don’t even know the cd of the skill nor ingame ranges. They aren’t high level players who know the cds and know when an attack is likely to occur again. Even being hit by it isn’t that bad. If he hit you in point blank range hes not exactly pulling you across traps. Invuln, stab, range break, timed stun breaks all still work. 4 options to counterplay a burst? That’s forgiving considering you already had the opportunity to evade the first strike.

Sykper.6583:

I can imagine the thief rage given it is yet another tool guardians get to shut down thieves, but let’s be real, if DH weren’t around, Thief would be broken beyond belief.

And this is honestly why the ability is not broken at all. The only one it truly affects is Thief and since Guardians can basically stand afk and watch a Thief almost kill themselves while attacking them, it doesn’t really matter. Not to mention perma evade (yes I know of the vulnerable frames, still a small grap to hit in like dodging the spear and way more often), stealth (always been of the opinion, even before the game released, that stealth is a mechanic that can never be truly balanced) and insane damage (hello vault) are increably dumb too.

Azoqu.8917:

Sykper.6583:

I can imagine the thief rage given it is yet another tool guardians get to shut down thieves, but let’s be real, if DH weren’t around, Thief would be broken beyond belief.

And this is honestly why the ability is not broken at all. The only one it truly affects is Thief and since Guardians can basically stand afk and watch a Thief almost kill themselves while attacking them, it doesn’t really matter. Not to mention perma evade (yes I know of the vulnerable frames, still a small grap to hit in like dodging the spear and way more often), stealth (always been of the opinion, even before the game released, that stealth is a mechanic that can never be truly balanced) and insane damage (hello vault) are increably dumb too.

I believe the thief mobility between points is why it succeeds so well. DH acts as a foil and restriction of sorts to what points a thief can attack and rotate to.

This current meta we have right now is interesting as although things below a pro-level are complaining about ‘pubstomping’ professions, at the pro-level the comps are likely to shift because of the capability DH has right now. When a DH gets played, then someone will have to counter that DH presence…and so the comps shift.

Oh well, as a Warrior if I get pulled I can immediately throw up a block or pop endure pain to negate the trap stacking and find a vulnerability in the DH rotation.

The only valid argument in this thread regarding spear of justice being overpowered is the fact that it comes out too quickly to react to reflexively. The counterplay rests in knowing the skill and reacting accordingly once tethered.

I have had every single class including thief counterplay it effectively. For example on thief: if you get hit by the chain, start dodging away from the DH to try to break the chain with distance. This forces the DH to use their pull early. Watch the DH closely since the pull has an animation too. As soon as you see that left hand do a pull/stroke animation, you hit bandit’s defence, or shadowstep. I’ve had thieves do this to me – tried pulling them at about 600 to 700 units away and they were able to stunbreak (stops the pull) before even getting pulled into my trap radius. I am completely incapable of stopping a knowledgeable thief from escaping me in wvw due to this. DH f1 is very strong but it does have counterplay.

A fair fix for the spear of justice would involve making the animation for the spear throw more visible (have a bright golden spear visible in hand as the player presses f1, not just as it flies through the air). It doesn’t need any of these illogical or “QQ, I need to l2p” nerfs that are being asked for.

You should have dodged the spear, to every skill that is in the same like as spear, should work the same as spear, you should not get a second chance to get out of an attack you already failed to dodge.

Famine.7915:

Yes let’s talk “logic”. You should be able to dodge a kittening chain already wrapped around you.

Wait, someone wants to talk logic?

Should we even be raising the question of how an arrow fired from a bow flies any amount of distance with a metal chain attached?

~“Hi, Physics here, I’d like my two cents kitten.” XD

Hard to dodge a chain wrapped around you… but lets not mention that a stunbreaker at the moment of the pull stops it.

I and many others have complained about anti evade skills a long time ago. For example Guardian walls should force dodging in place not a knock down when hitting the wall. Also pulls should be able to be evaded as otherwise they allow the snaring player to set up a spike and pull a player into it when he chooses ignoring most defenses such as block and evade which are canceled.

This issue will keep coming up because a mechanic that prevents a class wide base mechanic such as dodging wont feel fun to allot of players.

This is one of many reasons why I’m not playing anymore.

Exedore.6320:

Gwaihir.1745:

Why should you be given a second chance when you failed to evade it the first time?

1/4sec cast time is not reasonably avoidable. The only way to avoid it is to guess at when it will be used. It’s unblockable, so you can’t stop it that way either.

Then maybe Anet thinks it’s unreasonable to avoid it …