Guild Wars 2

Gwaihir.1745:

Why should you be given a second chance when you failed to evade it the first time? No skill does that, its called play and counterplay. You can evade the first spear, if you don’t you have to stab the hit or break the spear. That’s game. And honestly thats pretty forgiving since you have so many ways to counter it.

Research wise binding blade does not pull 1200 range, nor travel 1200 range, nor does it trigger if pulled when the target is slightly outside the hitbox.

Failed to evade? lol dude, it has no sound, almost no animation, and the chain travels faster than bullets. Don’t pretend like people are incompetent to not be able to dodge that thing

nicknamenick.2437:

Obtena.7952:

Crinn.7864:

Obtena.7952:

Perhaps people need to step back and think a little about their own assumptions for why Anet put a cast time on Spear because the base virtue is insta … it’s certainly not a mistake they added a cast time and there are methods to counterplay it.

Anet put a cast time on DH virtues so that they can’t be used while stunned and can’t be activated while casting something else. Core virtues are instant because their active effect is so weak that it’s a non-issue.

1/4th second cast is typically put on abilities that aren’t meant to dodgable but at the same time aren’t supposed to be usable while stunned.

Yup .. so for everyone that doesn’t ‘get it’, there is a reason that 1/4 is on there and there is also a reason this pull skill is particularly hard to dodge. I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a reason Spear should work different than the reasons it current works.

So your saying its should be 100% hit? with no counter play? because its a virtue?
but lets say it should be like this, why is it that Anet did allot of rework in the past making stuff more counterable?

I still prefer to mention “Pin down”

This skill used to be 1/4 sec and almost no animation.
Now its 3/4 sec with a good animation.
And everyone is OK with it because there is counterplay/reaction time now.

Dont you want every skill to have a proper counterplay? issnt that what we want in PVP?

Because the more i read this topic the more i think ppl just want passive stuff with no counterplay just to smash some buttons and hope they win just because there meta build is better, with no skill involved.

You’re arguing that “people just want passive stuff with no counterplay” on a thread about an active skill with built in counterplay by breaking the spear at 1200 range. Not passive.

nicknamenick.2437:

Obtena.7952:

Crinn.7864:

Obtena.7952:

Perhaps people need to step back and think a little about their own assumptions for why Anet put a cast time on Spear because the base virtue is insta … it’s certainly not a mistake they added a cast time and there are methods to counterplay it.

Anet put a cast time on DH virtues so that they can’t be used while stunned and can’t be activated while casting something else. Core virtues are instant because their active effect is so weak that it’s a non-issue.

1/4th second cast is typically put on abilities that aren’t meant to dodgable but at the same time aren’t supposed to be usable while stunned.

Yup .. so for everyone that doesn’t ‘get it’, there is a reason that 1/4 is on there and there is also a reason this pull skill is particularly hard to dodge. I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a reason Spear should work different than the reasons it current works.

So your saying its should be 100% hit? with no counter play? because its a virtue?
but lets say it should be like this, why is it that Anet did allot of rework in the past making stuff more counterable?

I still prefer to mention “Pin down”

This skill used to be 1/4 sec and almost no animation.
Now its 3/4 sec with a good animation.
And everyone is OK with it because there is counterplay/reaction time now.

Dont you want every skill to have a proper counterplay? issnt that what we want in PVP?

Because the more i read this topic the more i think ppl just want passive stuff with no counterplay just to smash some buttons and hope they win just because there meta build is better, with no skill involved.

Just as not every class plays the same, not every skill in the game needs to have the same kind of counterplay. As has been mentioned before in this thread, spear of justice does have counterplay and that counterplay just happens to not be dodging. Dodging is not an absolute defence in this game (ex. Wards/Static Field) and is not the be-all-end-all of defence and damage/CC negation.

I can understand people not being able to pass through certain things like walls (DH longbow #5, elite trap.
But it should NOT knock you back.
The worst part is when you use certain skills like blink or lightning flash, you STILL get knocked back, which makes no sense at all.

I don’t want those skills to become useless so everyone just dodges through, but please, they shouldn’t be that powerful & have some proper counterplay.

It’s also annoying how DH’s 3 most important offensive abilities are unblockable.

Doesn’t stability stop the pull?

R O C.6574:

Doesn’t stability stop the pull?

It does, but not every class has access to stability, and fewer still on a cd quick enough to beat out the spear cd if baited.

Running away on a 20sec cd should not be taken as active counterplay. The pvp in this game involves fighting/sitting on a point.

Traps are fine because they can be avoided and predicted, and a few can even be blocked, but the setup mechanic for those traps has a miniscule tell, a fast travel speed, and once connected cripples you. to avoid being pulled, you either have to let the DH cap the point while you try to bait out spear or get in range for the spear if you dont have a 1200 range weapon and risk being sunk into traps.

Okay, so what is the counterplay for classes without stability then?

The initial spear is too fast for any normal human to react to, so that rules out reflects and dodges. It’s unblockable, so that rules out predicting when the DH will use it and preemptively blocking.

A few classes have invulns, but they’re on long cooldowns compared to spear. Some classes have auto-proc cc traits like Last Stand which cancel cc, but these are skillless and should be removed from the game.

What is .. for example, a base ranger supposed to do when facing a DH? They’re GOING to get speared. They’re going to get pulled, guaranteed, and they’re going to eat some traps. They can’t do anything about it.

WTB active counterplay

coro.3176:

Okay, so what is the counterplay for classes without stability then?

The initial spear is too fast for any normal human to react to, so that rules out reflects and dodges. It’s unblockable, so that rules out predicting when the DH will use it and preemptively blocking.

A few classes have invulns, but they’re on long cooldowns compared to spear. Some classes have auto-proc cc traits like Last Stand which cancel cc, but these are skillless and should be removed from the game.

What is .. for example, a base ranger supposed to do when facing a DH? They’re GOING to get speared. They’re going to get pulled, guaranteed, and they’re going to eat some traps. They can’t do anything about it.

WTB active counterplay

I’d like to note for posterity that active counterplay has been agreed upon as “running away.”

At what point did dodging a telegraphed move (hunters verdict) become unacceptable counterplay?

I also don’t understand how asking for a visual cue on dodging a potentially damaging move (spear of justice for -> hunters verdict). is considered lazy or otherwise frowned upon. Isnt active display of skill like seeing something coming and evading it supposed to be encouraged?

Either give us one (A telegraph on Spear of Justice) , or the other (a dodgeable hunters verdict). You cant just cap your argument as "run away, damage is part of the game, you’re gonna get hit with something :y " as your argument and expect that nonsense to just be tolerable. I’m not asking for nerfs to the class, I’m asking for a window to exhibit skill.

Because without it, you’re pretty much saying "Dragonhunters can go to a point, lay damaging traps and sit there, and if anyone comes within 1200 range of them and does not dodge a single fast traveling, low-visibility projectile the DH can yank them without fail into a burst, because the passive/flipover pulls you around and over terrain, gives you pulsing cripple, rips you out of blink/step, and cannot be blocked.

“And the burst will do damage unless you have a passive trait because it’s hard cc and interrupts your kitten skills. "

coro.3176:

Okay, so what is the counterplay for classes without stability then?

The one class without access to stability can very easily break the tether on that spear through mobility alone. If you don’t accept that as the proper counterplay, then your options are:

1. Git gud enough to stun-break mid-pull and prevent yourself from getting pulled into traps (difficult and takes some practice but is definitely possible and repeatable once you get the hang of it)

2. Get pulled into traps, immediately stunbreak, dodge out and follow up with mobility skills or stealth (still works, but you will eat a good 4-5k crit in the worst case scenario).

3. Whine about it on forums.

nicknamenick.2437:

Obtena.7952:

Crinn.7864:

Obtena.7952:

Perhaps people need to step back and think a little about their own assumptions for why Anet put a cast time on Spear because the base virtue is insta … it’s certainly not a mistake they added a cast time and there are methods to counterplay it.

Anet put a cast time on DH virtues so that they can’t be used while stunned and can’t be activated while casting something else. Core virtues are instant because their active effect is so weak that it’s a non-issue.

1/4th second cast is typically put on abilities that aren’t meant to dodgable but at the same time aren’t supposed to be usable while stunned.

Yup .. so for everyone that doesn’t ‘get it’, there is a reason that 1/4 is on there and there is also a reason this pull skill is particularly hard to dodge. I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a reason Spear should work different than the reasons it current works.

So your saying its should be 100% hit? with no counter play? because its a virtue?
but lets say it should be like this, why is it that Anet did allot of rework in the past making stuff more counterable?

No I didn’t say that. I said as it works now, it makes sense for what it’s intended to do.

Not reading everything, just wanna give my +1. Maybe any dev reads this and counts the +1 or smth…

This mechanic is broken.
Reason: Its too easy and too synergetic. The single weakness of the guard / DH is its crappy mobility. It should be easy to outrun and to avoid the traps. Its already hard enough to do this in a gamemode centered around capping stationary points that are mostly the exact size of a trap AoE.
Giving the guard such a powerful tool independant from build, weapon or utility skills is simple breaking the fairness of that class. That would be similar to the likes of
- giving a thief a trait “Backstab doesnt break stealth”
- giving mesmers shatter skills that dont kill their clones ever (not just once)
- removing cooldown on elementalist attunements.

Those things simply remove the weaknesses of the classes and should not exist.

QQ:
I (thief main) just played a game as DH in ranked (matchmaking gave us 2 thieves + 2 mes, so i relogged). I am no good DH, still just running mid, camping and blowing everything off cooldown gave me 3 topstats.
Bonus: Seeing a thief engaging on me, just placing my traps, seeing him retreat. I throw my spear, he stealths & ports to nirvana. I press pull. Thief slides to me from somewhere behind me, triggers all traps and is then killed on teleporting of ouf Test of Faith. Glorious!

So a few days ago i made a thf (i’m a dh main) since i wanted to have more options for counter comping. I tried that vault spam build. Good god. Massive aoe damage everywhere and the enemy can’t do anything about it. Bound, vault, bound, vault, bound, vault. Amazing.

Thank goodness i have an undodgeable pull on spear of justice to punish that evade spamming cheese. On a positive note though, playing around with thf has taught me that you can and should dodge vault since that is where most of the damage comes from and they use dodge to proc the daredevil runes and bound trait to proc a garaunteed critical hit on vault with an added 10% damage bonus. So don’t dodge bound, but dodge vault if you must.

It feels good to multi class.

Kuya.6495:

So a few days ago i made a thf (i’m a dh main) since i wanted to have more options for counter comping. I tried that vault spam build. Good god. Massive aoe damage everywhere and the enemy can’t do anything about it. Bound, vault, bound, vault, bound, vault. Amazing.

Thank goodness i have an undodgeable pull on spear of justice to punish that evade spamming cheese. On a positive note though, playing around with thf has taught me that you can and should dodge vault since that is where most of the damage comes from and they use dodge to proc the daredevil runes and bound trait to proc a garaunteed critical hit on vault with an added 10% damage bonus. So don’t dodge bound, but dodge vault if you must.

It feels good to multi class.

Yis Thieves can be stupidly broken, especially if you play a necro, good thieves could walk on Revs if played well before the nerf. They also have the low brain power D/D condi build as well.