Guild Wars 2

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

No defensive skill should apply significant pressure to an enemy player. There is no counter play to an evade. Until the devs release skills that are direct counters to evades, there should be no high damage evade skills. It is sad that a condi thief can kill a competent top 250 player without taking a single hit of damage. It is frustrating and makes people not want to play the game.

For what it is worth, here are some suggestions for the daredevil GM trait that would be more fun to play against.

Unhindered Combatant – Remain as is.
Bounding Dodger – Dodge skills now dodge-jump and can be chained mid air. (gives interesting mobility options to cross terrain obstacles)
Lotus Training – Dodge skills now shadowstep/teleport forward (now the thief can dodge through skills like line of warding).

As it stands right now though, fighting many of the specs in the game feel like a chore. Fights are essentially decided based on the build a player brings, and not their skill.

If any developer reads this, I implore them to personally duel an s/d condi thief so they can better understand our frustration as players.

Go play a bounding dodger build for a bit and then complain

Bound and vault are not the problem, both can be avoided with relative ease, and vault can easily be interrupted.

Having a dodge roll like lotus that can damage at a comparatively large range is a problem, however.

In any case, condi thief is certainly beatable with a number of builds: ele, dh, condi mes, flip necro. It’s all about timing your skills during their dead frames. Which, sadly, most top 250 NA players can’t do.

The build is certainly over-tuned and needs to be nerfed, but the crux of the problem isn’t with the “damaging dodges,” as you claim.

Vaults Evade frame is so tiny, that it is almost as easy to interrupt as Gravedigger even during the whole thing.
Boudning dodger, same as Vault, is easily avoidable. You don’t even have to dodge, just walk the other direction as the Bounding dodger takes so long to land and its radius is not even that big.

Lotus training is indeed a *****r, but only nerf this needs is reduce the duration/ potential/ number of the applied conditions. Cause right now I am seing builds that kill with one Dodge of Lotus Training and that ain’t right.

No, nobody is dying to a single lotus, and top 250 players can deal with it easilly. It’s in low plat where players just stand in the poison clouds, and if you don’t do that condi thief is a lot weaker.

ummmmm how about you learn to cleanse…….

Like seriously, I co main condi thief, most of the people I find kittening and complaining are the same idiots who don’t cleanse.

Lotus training doesn’t even really apply that much pressure tbh, that’s just you look at your condi bar, freaking out, and forgetting what to do about it

I’d say maybe 10% of the damage from a thief’s condi comes from lotus, the rest is actually from utility skills….not the lotus itself

Make a condi thief, run one of those builds youre complaining about, then come back

They do a tad bit more damage because of the fact that since we’re using them, we have to lose other things such as the usual thief mobility (which is really the core of thief…..mobility) and we even lose some condi cleanse. Hell we also lose a good bit of stability too

So imo its fairly balanced. I now move like a turtle who cant break cc for increased damage

Stun one of those thieves and let me know if they break out of it, 9/10, they wont cause they cant due to the fact that the evade they chose don’t really have a build that will allow them to have a lot of it

Lastly the thief class is a very squishy class, it’s primarily high risk vs high reward

Taking away the reward makes the risk pointless hence killing the profession, kinda like they did necros yesterday

This is also a l2p issue

Ive faced guards, warriors, engis, even necros players who knew how to counter all of which you have issues with, so if some necros players in unranked can figure out how to avoid it, why cant you?

Necros is the weakest profession right now on top of that

While OP shouldn’t be singling out DD mechanics like this, he does bring up a good point. Dodge rolling should never in and of itself damage opponents. Conditionally damaging someone (like if you actually evaded an attack instead of just randomly dodging) are fine, but a dodge roll that automatically damages, or gives you a lasting damage boost, is not ok and should be looked at.

Obviously you can buildwars dodge spamming thives but you miss the point.

It is bad game design.

On a high level, the game should have the effort to make a play as equal as possible to the effort to stop the play. For example, a high cd cc followed by a high cd, high cast time burst is good design. It is hard to land the burst so the player must combo it with cc. Likewise, it is hard to evade the cc (some builds). Now the game is effort-imbalanced. Big damage requires no effort to land (e.g. evade spam and steal bursts) while counterplay (predicting steal and somehow dodging everything) is prohibitively hard. This is consistent over pretty much all HoT specs.

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

Chaith.8256:

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

You beat me to it.
So yes, it has many counters.

duster.7013:

Go play a bounding dodger build for a bit and then complain

I recently swapped to staff evade thief in WvW. The spec is beyond broken if the user has half of a brain.

Damage on evade is a highly broken mechanic in most video games that employs it.

You can’t even do a damaging evades in ESO. And ZOS went full kitten in that game.

pretty sure warriors reckless dodge can hurt too

Chaith.8256:

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

Do you really think that the evade spam no-tell bursts is good game design or are you just here to argue semantics?

You can counter damage on evade attack. Throw up a block or evade yourself and you will take no damage. Invulns works as well. Something like resistance or endure pain will counter virtually all damage.

As to there being no tell. Bounding as example does not do its damage until it lands. You can dodge out or block in that 3/4 of a second just as you would against any other atack.

Dying to a single attack of an impaling lotus? Does anyone in Pvp trait a cleanse.? Impaling lotus on use will apply one stack of bleed one of torment against a single target. How are people dying to one impaling lotus and how much less then ONE can you go?

These dodges are in reality little different then evasive attacks people get off their weapons or through some other means. There are all manner of skills that have an evade component while able to lay on damage.

As to “no defensive skill should apply significant pressure to a palyer” If One stack of bleed and one stack of torment considered significant pressure, what is Retaliation or Reflect doing to a player using ranged weapons?

babazhook.6805:

You can counter damage on evade attack. Throw up a block or evade yourself and you will take no damage. Invulns works as well. Something like resistance or endure pain will counter virtually all damage.

As to there being no tell. Bounding as example does not do its damage until it lands. You can dodge out or block in that 3/4 of a second just as you would against any other atack.

Dying to a single attack of an impaling lotus? Does anyone in Pvp trait a cleanse.? Impaling lotus on use will apply one stack of bleed one of torment against a single target. How are people dying to one impaling lotus and how much less then ONE can you go?

These dodges are in reality little different then evasive attacks people get off their weapons or through some other means. There are all manner of skills that have an evade component while able to lay on damage.

As to “no defensive skill should apply significant pressure to a palyer” If One stack of bleed and one stack of torment considered significant pressure, what is Retaliation or Reflect doing to a player using ranged weapons?

my point exactly, that’s why I sad it sounds like a l2p issue, ive had engis, rangers, guards, necros’, engis, eles, just about ppl on every class manage to dodge the few condis from my impaling, like I literally burned 2 of my evades and only the third one landed applying little damage and me being out of endurance

If you know what youre doing theyre easy to avoid and ive seen plenty do it

Also the same goes with what babaz said about cleanses, ive literally fought a full team who ran cleanses and made my life as a condi thief hell, they had survivability and damage still

The only people who complain about stuff like this usually just don’t know what to do

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unrelenting_Assault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Charge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Speed

Are you sure its evade+damage you dislike, or is it actually just thief?

Ryan.9387:

Chaith.8256:

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

Do you really think that the evade spam no-tell bursts is good game design or are you just here to argue semantics?

Its only a problem if you can’t counter it.

Jayce.5632:

Ryan.9387:

Chaith.8256:

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

Do you really think that the evade spam no-tell bursts is good game design or are you just here to argue semantics?

Its only a problem if you can’t counter it.

Those numbers are impossible… Were you wearing a paper bag as your chest piece?

Ragnar.4257:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unrelenting_Assault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Charge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Speed

Are you sure its evade+damage you dislike, or is it actually just thief?

Thief is the best example of the problem. Most of those skills are a problem imo.

Evade skills if they apply decent damage shouldn’t be multi-hit and shouldn’t have low cool downs. Of those skills, burning speed is the best designed. That’s because it’s damage is compressed, behind a large animation, and it has a reasonable cooldown (also consider attunement swapping with its cool down).

That Lotus Thief build almost made me quit WvW.
With PvP I don’t even bother anymore,Super Mario Cart is more balanced,but
going 1v1 against that abomination of a build in 2017,in a game that was supposed to have solid PvP balance….
-Hey let’s give Thief a solid offensive utility with its evades.
Because it really needs it.
-Yeah.
-Great idea bro.

Ragnar.4257:

Are you sure its evade+damage you dislike, or is it actually just thief?

Thief can dodge/evade with damage repeatedly in succession. Most of the abilities you listed have cooldowns and the evade was added to make the movement portion of the skill reliable.

That constant evade + damage gets to the underlying problem: tactics (builds) which require disproportionately less skill to execute than to counter.

Exedore.6320:

Ragnar.4257:

Are you sure its evade+damage you dislike, or is it actually just thief?

Thief can dodge/evade with damage repeatedly in succession. Most of the abilities you listed have cooldowns and the evade was added to make the movement portion of the skill reliable.

That constant evade + damage gets to the underlying problem: tactics (builds) which require disproportionately less skill to execute than to counter.

Exactly

Ryan.9387:

Exedore.6320:

Ragnar.4257:

Are you sure its evade+damage you dislike, or is it actually just thief?

Thief can dodge/evade with damage repeatedly in succession. Most of the abilities you listed have cooldowns and the evade was added to make the movement portion of the skill reliable.

That constant evade + damage gets to the underlying problem: tactics (builds) which require disproportionately less skill to execute than to counter.

Exactly

Exactly? This is how the thief is designed. it like complaining a Guardian can throw up blocks consecutivelt or an engineer can throw up reflects and invulns.

Every evade a thief has can be countered and added to that every class can dodge consecutively. The thief has one more base dodge if DrD traited. The Thief not taking the DrD line have just as many Dodges as any other class.

The white knights of thieves are alot in here, how can you defend a class that alone dictates which other classes and builds are viable or not. It’s the most conceptually broken, unhealthy class of the game and the dodges with secondary effects are a big reason.

Aenaos.8160:

That Lotus Thief build almost made me quit WvW.
With PvP I don’t even bother anymore,Super Mario Cart is more balanced,but
going 1v1 against that abomination of a build in 2017,in a game that was supposed to have solid PvP balance….
-Hey let’s give Thief a solid offensive utility with its evades.
Because it really needs it.
-Yeah.
-Great idea bro.

Impaling lotus applies 1 bleed and one torment on a dodge. The thief tends to have around 4 dodges that can be used in short order any of wich can be dodged or interrupted. This is 4 bleeds and 4 torments if you do not manage to dodge or block or cleanse.

You can get a heck of a lot more then that off single attacks.

You take more damage from the 12 second ICD of Mesmers Blurred frenzy which evades attacks for 2 and 3/4s second consecutive. If a thief burned off all his endurance doing 4 back to back dodges he is not getting it back in 12 seconds.

XxsdgxX.8109:

The white knights of thieves are alot in here, how can you defend a class that alone dictates which other classes and builds are viable or not. It’s the most conceptually broken, unhealthy class of the game and the dodges with secondary effects are a big reason.

Just learn how to fight them. Many have.

I’ve never played thief in PvP, but all I know is that once you catch them without a dodge they die instantly. The class relies on them. I’d say thief is one of best designed classes in the game, because fighting them is so different.

WUROCKET.5182:

I’ve never played thief in PvP, but all I know is that once you catch them without a dodge they die instantly. The class relies on them. I’d say thief is one of best designed classes in the game, because fighting them is so different.

You have it exactly right and it good to see at least some people understand this. A thief spamming his dodges does not have a lot in the way of defense when that last dodge used. Unlike OTHER classes when a thief spams a single skill all of the other skills on both weaponsets become unusable outside the AA.

Spam vault 3+ times and #2 #3 #4 staff along with #2 #3 #4 and #5 skills on second weaponset can not be used. If you fight a thief vault spammer all you need do is avoid or counter those first few vaults and you are in the drivers seat. This is why the thief then tries to break off to reset.

babazhook.6805:

WUROCKET.5182:

I’ve never played thief in PvP, but all I know is that once you catch them without a dodge they die instantly. The class relies on them. I’d say thief is one of best designed classes in the game, because fighting them is so different.

You have it exactly right and it good to see at least some people understand this. A thief spamming his dodges does not have a lot in the way of defense when that last dodge used. Unlike OTHER classes when a thief spams a single skill all of the other skills on both weaponsets become unusable outside the AA.

You should take some lessons from some uber theifs
…https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/GW2-Viirastra-normal-mode-solo…
(before they nerf/unglitch the istance)

The video is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GntZF3V9Ma4&feature=youtu.be for whoever dont want to go in the thread .
And at 2:59 gets to 4k and without a heal he get topped off

Solitude.2097:

babazhook.6805:

WUROCKET.5182:

I’ve never played thief in PvP, but all I know is that once you catch them without a dodge they die instantly. The class relies on them. I’d say thief is one of best designed classes in the game, because fighting them is so different.

You have it exactly right and it good to see at least some people understand this. A thief spamming his dodges does not have a lot in the way of defense when that last dodge used. Unlike OTHER classes when a thief spams a single skill all of the other skills on both weaponsets become unusable outside the AA.

You should take some lessons from some uber theifs
…https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/GW2-Viirastra-normal-mode-solo…
(before they nerf/unglitch the istance)

The video is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GntZF3V9Ma4&feature=youtu.be for whoever dont want to go in the thread .
And at 2:59 gets to 4k and without a heal he get topped off

This is a video of a person fighting AI.

There a reason AI bosses are given oodles of hit points and special attacks and that because it will not be competitive otherwise.

babazhook.6805:

Solitude.2097:

babazhook.6805:

WUROCKET.5182:

I’ve never played thief in PvP, but all I know is that once you catch them without a dodge they die instantly. The class relies on them. I’d say thief is one of best designed classes in the game, because fighting them is so different.

You have it exactly right and it good to see at least some people understand this. A thief spamming his dodges does not have a lot in the way of defense when that last dodge used. Unlike OTHER classes when a thief spams a single skill all of the other skills on both weaponsets become unusable outside the AA.

You should take some lessons from some uber theifs
…https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/GW2-Viirastra-normal-mode-solo…
(before they nerf/unglitch the istance)

The video is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GntZF3V9Ma4&feature=youtu.be for whoever dont want to go in the thread .
And at 2:59 gets to 4k and without a heal he get topped off

This is a video of a person fighting AI. You are not seriously suggesting a theif spamming Dodges and DB like this against a competent opponet is going to win?

There a reason AI bosses are given OOdles of hit points and special attacks and that because it will not be competitive otherwise.

Oh i am sorry for a sec i thought you have said that if a thief waste his 3 dodges he dies .
Either the videos with the constant aoes is wrong or you …
Who should i choose ?

Solitude.2097:

babazhook.6805:

Solitude.2097:

babazhook.6805:

WUROCKET.5182:

I’ve never played thief in PvP, but all I know is that once you catch them without a dodge they die instantly. The class relies on them. I’d say thief is one of best designed classes in the game, because fighting them is so different.

You have it exactly right and it good to see at least some people understand this. A thief spamming his dodges does not have a lot in the way of defense when that last dodge used. Unlike OTHER classes when a thief spams a single skill all of the other skills on both weaponsets become unusable outside the AA.

You should take some lessons from some uber theifs
…https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/GW2-Viirastra-normal-mode-solo…
(before they nerf/unglitch the istance)

The video is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GntZF3V9Ma4&feature=youtu.be for whoever dont want to go in the thread .
And at 2:59 gets to 4k and without a heal he get topped off

This is a video of a person fighting AI. You are not seriously suggesting a theif spamming Dodges and DB like this against a competent opponet is going to win?

There a reason AI bosses are given OOdles of hit points and special attacks and that because it will not be competitive otherwise.

Oh i am sorry for a sec i thought you have said that if a thief waste his 3 dodges he dies .
Either the videos with the constant aoes is wrong or you …
Who should i choose ?

We are talking about WvW and PVP. Not PVE and bosses. You really do not think there a difference? Where in this thread are people complaining that thief does too well against an NPC boss? I cna pull up threeads of other classes soloing bosses. It not relevant to what being discussed here.

If you use your time to analyze the video you can see that the same rotatiion IS ALREADY USED IN PvE + WvWvW .
I am trying to find where he dies after his 3 dodges have ended ….
Could you help me a bit please ?

Solitude.2097:

If you use your time to analyze the video you can see that the same rotatiion IS ALREADY USED IN PvE + WvWvW .
I am trying to find where he dies after his 3 dodges have ended ….
Could you help me a bit please ?

I answered your question. Read the thread. You are trying to compare an NPC to a player. If it your contention the players that are complaining about Impaling lotus and its one torment and one bleed on dodge as being OP or the same ones that complain there no counter to bounding dodger Are no more competent then a AI monster you might have a point.

I really could not care less what rotation is used in WvW or PvP. I as a player facing a person using that rotation do not have to respond like a computer program to it. That some just swing madly away or drop spam their own skills as fast as they can does not suggest everyone must or does.

The AI is NOT timing its attacks to hit the thief in its vulnerable frames. The AI is not cleansing or blocking or dodging like a player can. It is not able to read what the Thief is about to do and responding accordingly. It is not adapting its gameplay to the type of build or profession that it faces.

If we are just talking about rotations versus rotations that some site throws up as “optimal” we might as well not have people play this game at all.

Yeah , but you are still avoiding my question
He doesnt die after 3 dodges , but he has the evades frames too and based on the video a Uber Theif (not a noobie) can maintain his survibility , while having selfhealing on evades + dot cleansing .

This boss + adds , can do EVEN MORE AOES from most enemies in the WvWvwW or PvP .

Most other classes spells have a cast time so you cant reliable time it to the end of your evades attacks .
And if they do then Dodge Thief is a noob-class spec , while they oponents must even higher skill cealing to counter it .

Based on video in 2:59 even if the thief gets to 4k from prefectly execution from the oponent , he can recover

Can you help with again with the video about the few dodges ends , it will lead to death ?

Sorry for my english

Solitude.2097:

Yeah , but you are still avoiding my question
He doesnt die after 3 dodges , but he has the evades frames too and based on the video a Uber Theif (not a noobie) can maintain his survibility , while having selfhealing on evades + dot cleansing .

This boss + adds , can do EVEN MORE AOES from most enemies in the WvWvwW or PvP .

Most other classes spells have a cast time so you cant reliable time it to the end of your evades attacks .
And if they do then Dodge Thief is a noob-class spec , while they oponents must even higher skill cealing to counter it .

Based on video in 2:59 even if the thief gets to 4k from prefectly execution from the oponent , he can recover

Can you help with again with the video about the few dodges ends , it will lead to death ?

Sorry for my english

I am talking about facing real players. If I play NHL 2017 against AN AI and get 4 goals that hardly means I can play in the NHL against real players and get 4 goals. I can not say that because I got 4 goals against an AI, that this will translate to use against real players.

A Thief that blindly spams his dodges in PVP becomes an easy target. Unlike the AI a competent player will know exactly what that thief is going to do. As example Bounding Dodger was listed. If a player spams bounding Dodger against me I can avoid each and every attack because he is SPAMMING. I know it is coming. Once he spams those three dodges against me he now has no dodges or has to steal to get one.

As I mentioned in the post above this is one reason why a Thief will turn and flee the scene. Or stealth and park there. He has blown his defensive abilities in an attempt to do damage.

In your video the thief then uses kittenain a player can easily counter that. DB is melee range only. That AI does not try and move out of its range. When I see a person using DB i Just step back. (DB is NOT a dodge it is an evasive weapon attack)

Alright so what happens when a Thief using the DB build spammed his dodges and burned them off and now switches to DB?

I take a step back. I wait until the proper point in the DB frame and I immob him, or load him with conditions or spike him with my own damage. He is locked in the DB frame and can not avoid this AND he has burned his dodges.

The AI can not does not act like a comtpetent player. It has a set rotation of responses and as such its example is not relevant here.

This thread was started by someone who claimed that Bounding Dodger and Impaling Lotus could not be countered thus should not be allowed to do damage. This is patently false as was demonstrated by other players. It was also pointed out that other professions could deal damage while evading, and the goalposts were moved (albeit not by the OP) to suggest this did not matter because the other skills had cooldowns wherin the thief could spam.

Thief by design can use the same attacks multiple times.That spam comes at a cost. The skills in question are fine.

man I begin to hate this KITTEN nonsense used on the simplest of words. I am not even going to bother to rewrite, you should get the drift.

Again you should look at the video
A highly skilled player can maintain his survibility more time than my boyfriend

Not other class can avoid all his attacks .
And you cant escape because amongs the other dots a Thief can pinpoint you down with Cripple .
Or you have to constatly turn 180 degree and run , then an other 180 to attack .

On in case of PvP , its captured based game that condtion Theif can be used as a Bunker with that selfhealing + dot cleansing + evade frames.

And you cant punish him 100% of the times because he can maintain the weakness from the crit trait too

I agree in part. Reckless dodge, bounding dodger and lotus training are bad by design. Caltrops on dodge is different, but it should really be "on successful evade," as with anything that is going to deal damage. Just spamming a defensive skill should not be rewarding, it should be clearly noticeable as bad, which would simply be: you gained nothing except for putting your defenses on cool down/recharge.

Vault is not the same as the daredevil GM traits, and there are a lot of skills that damage at the end of an evade, across all classes... Death blossom, burning speed, ranger’s S/D, ranger’s GS, flanking strike. There are also skills that deal damage after or during a block. If you have a problem with the way vault works, that is a separate issue.

Edit: Vault evade frame ends as they begin to descend, which is also noticeable by the blue glow ending. Death blossom isn’t evading when the animation reaches peak height. There are plenty of defensive skills, as mentioned already.

babazhook.6805:

Impaling lotus applies 1 bleed and one torment on a dodge. The thief tends to have around 4 dodges that can be used in short order any of wich can be dodged or interrupted. This is 4 bleeds and 4 torments if you do not manage to dodge or block or cleanse.

The dangerous part about Impaling lotus isn’t the damaging condition it does but the on demand cover condition and damage boost. It’s like make use of Corrupt Boon after Executioner’s Scythe + Soul Spiral combo to cover the bleeding stack with less efforts and risks.

Since thieves tend to make use of poison as first condition they can’t easily reach the poison by cleansing and this make it “unfair” to their eyes, like to someone it’s unfair Deathly Chill’s 3 bleed in WvW.

Vitali.5039:

babazhook.6805:

Impaling lotus applies 1 bleed and one torment on a dodge. The thief tends to have around 4 dodges that can be used in short order any of wich can be dodged or interrupted. This is 4 bleeds and 4 torments if you do not manage to dodge or block or cleanse.

The dangerous part about Impaling lotus isn’t the damaging condition it does but the on demand cover condition and damage boost. It’s like make use of Corrupt Boon after Executioner’s Scythe + Soul Spiral combo to cover the bleeding stack with less efforts and risks.

Since thieves tend to make use of poison as first condition they can’t easily reach the poison by cleansing and this make it “unfair” to their eyes, like to someone it’s unfair Deathly Chill’s 3 bleed in WvW.

Any condition class that can not add covers is not going to last long and a thief that is using his dodges just to add cover conditions is throwing away his best defense. The skill as designed is not op and those speaking against it do not understand how thief works.

A good thief is not going to just spam dodge in order to get those cover conditions on. He is going to time his dodges for the optimal moment and generally this one where he can evade a big incoming attack at the same time.

The evade one gets on dodge to mitigate damage is much more useful in that regard than is the evade one gets on something like a vault or DB since those are locked animations and can be more easily countered so you really do not want to just waste dodges.

Solitude.2097:

Again you should look at the video
A highly skilled player can maintain his survibility more time than my boyfriend

Not other class can avoid all his attacks .
And you cant escape because amongs the other dots a Thief can pinpoint you down with Cripple .
Or you have to constatly turn 180 degree and run , then an other 180 to attack .

On in case of PvP , its captured based game that condtion Theif can be used as a Bunker with that selfhealing + dot cleansing + evade frames.

And you cant punish him 100% of the times because he can maintain the weakness from the crit trait too

You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare an AI to a person. Highly skilled players can survive across all manner of professions against an AI or poor players.

The SKILL reflected in the video is as much the player knowing what the AI is going to do next and anticipating and I will suggest he did not do this on the first time in against the AI.

Natto.5819:

Jayce.5632:

Ryan.9387:

Chaith.8256:

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

Do you really think that the evade spam no-tell bursts is good game design or are you just here to argue semantics?

Its only a problem if you can’t counter it.

Those numbers are impossible… Were you wearing a paper bag as your chest piece?

For perspective, (this is coming from Anet, who has a history throwing things into the game without proper testing) there was no Protection boon up at the time and I can not rule out the possibility of Vulnerability prots playing a factor as the encounter was less than 2 sec. The screenshot was taken on Battle of Kyhlo just one day after the August 8 patch.

Impossible? Yes, but only if you are wearing one of the following amulets.
Cavalier, Demolisher, Knight, Paladin, Rabid or Wanderer.

However, if you are wearing the following amulets listed next, then you are pretty much (insert rock-hard metaphor here).
Assassin, Berserker, Carrion, Deadshot, Destroyer, Diviner, Magi, Marauder, Mender, Rampager, Sage, Seeker, Sinister, Valkyrie or Viper.

Forget the evades for a moment. The amount of damage from the screenshot is enough to delete 8 out of the 9 classes from the map with just one Vault. Granted, the stars have to align just right with the roll of weapon numbers, and this particular combo build most likely would never see high tiers play. But if you are not a Warrior or a Necromancer, then one button has the power to literally remove nearly 15 amulets from selection. Hell, 26k+ out of the 50k+ combo is done from Stealth.

Yes, there are counters to Vault and others, but is there no end to the reward when there is great risk? Should there not be a cap on the reward at all? I know trains are being designed with no braking systems now. Just let me know when they start to enter service.

load of kitten.

First off: That thief is running Zerker (It’s the only way to get those numbers) he is also targeting another zerker spec (as the numbers clearly show)
Second: That thief either went with a full might stacking build, OR, he used a +dmg modifier spec, both of which require the thief to pick 9 offensive traits.
This leaves him with 11k life. and limited sustain.

Third: His 9 trait choices are completly negated by ONE auto procing passive. and with the added channels, Aoes, CC’s and dot’s that where increased with hot, i’m honestly really scratching my head trying to figure out how you(or they) lost to this thief.

and finally, since i’ve been running a core thief (sometimes zerker other times seekers) and i don’t have a problem fighting glass specs or this condition specs, i can honestly say its a you issue. (i will also point out i have had about 34 games this season. other then that i haven’t played at all)

In all likely hood this ss is from WvW or shortly after Hot launched the anti thief crowd have a habit of using misinformation to get there way. (look at the size of the black box, most server can easily fit into that space.

My warrior runs a tad under 3k in armor one weapon set and over 3k when swapping in the other. This along with 26k in health. (I speak to WvW)

With forceful greatsword and other sources He can generate might on every swing. This used with the new Might makes rigth can generate up to 40 endurance on a single hundred blades against a single target along with a heal of 150 health per iteration.

This warrior now runs at around 240 percent crit damage with the added 500 ferocity out of the arms line. It relatively easy to max might stack this guy at 25 stacks might even as Vuln applied to the enemy while attacking. The endurance add allows him to rapidly refill his endurance bar for more damage on Dodge and just as with any other class, he can do multiple dodges in a row (no it not only a thief that can do that).

Trust me, with adrenal and signet running and the Might makes right heals along with that higher health and armor this guy far less fragile then your typical power thief that traits for those large vaults or damage with bounders.

This warrior does NOT need an evasive attack on his Hundred blades because no one is going to stand there and eat it.

babazhook.6805:

Vitali.5039:

babazhook.6805:

Impaling lotus applies 1 bleed and one torment on a dodge. The thief tends to have around 4 dodges that can be used in short order any of wich can be dodged or interrupted. This is 4 bleeds and 4 torments if you do not manage to dodge or block or cleanse.

The dangerous part about Impaling lotus isn’t the damaging condition it does but the on demand cover condition and damage boost. It’s like make use of Corrupt Boon after Executioner’s Scythe + Soul Spiral combo to cover the bleeding stack with less efforts and risks.

Since thieves tend to make use of poison as first condition they can’t easily reach the poison by cleansing and this make it “unfair” to their eyes, like to someone it’s unfair Deathly Chill’s 3 bleed in WvW.

Any condition class that can not add covers is not going to last long and a thief that is using his dodges just to add cover conditions is throwing away his best defense. The skill as designed is not op and those speaking against it do not understand how thief works.

A good thief is not going to just spam dodge in order to get those cover conditions on. He is going to time his dodges for the optimal moment and generally this one where he can evade a big incoming attack at the same time.

The evade one gets on dodge to mitigate damage is much more useful in that regard than is the evade one gets on something like a vault or DB since those are locked animations and can be more easily countered so you really do not want to just waste dodges.

To counter counters: smart thieves make use of Black Powder to blind attackers while whirling blinding bolts (even if the build listed on metabattle run off dagger off pistol it’s very good) or dodge just when they can’t interrupt.

Obviously dodge damaging skills it’s better than free dodging but if you need cover condition to waste enemy’s condition clear ther’s nothing wrong with it (no triple duh-dge but smart endurance investiment)

Thieves just shouln’t try to play “all you can dodge and win” cause once the endurance it’s gone all they can do it’s disengage.

I stopped complaining. And joined the OP AF staff evade thief crowd. That spec don’t require much of a brain. Staff evade thief 1v1 IMO is one of the less counterable builds in small scale WvW.

Now image 3 or more roaming together. Any ways you guys should just stop complaining. And join the rest of us on the Staff Evade Daredevil overlords of small scale WvW. It’s fun to not only have 6 or more evades more then anyone else in the game, but to also have one of the highest burst in the game in a defensive mechanic.

Reaper Alim.4176:

I stopped complaining. And joined the OP AF staff evade thief crowd. That spec don’t require much of a brain. Staff evade thief 1v1 IMO is one of the less counterable builds in small scale WvW.

Now image 3 or more roaming together. Any ways you guys should just stop complaining. And join the rest of us on the Staff Evade Daredevil overlords of small scale WvW. It’s fun to not only have 6 or more evades more then anyone else in the game, but to also have one of the highest burst in the game in a defensive mechanic.

Lulz complaining about Thieves from WvW in a PvP thread in the PvP subforum.

Completely different balance.

And it’s hilarious the tone of this thread OP states no counters to Evades, a player posts a fraction of the counters to Evades, the OP says those don’t count……..

And by the Logic of OP then no one should be able to do any damage while they are invuln, pseudo invuln or Blocking.

Vault / bound thief is fine. Condi thief on the other hand is manageable but still needs to be toned down. The only thing I’m worried about though when there is a condi thief on the other team are my teammates cause there is usually that one guy who just stands there and eats all the condi thief’s condi application.

Highlie.7641:

load of kitten.

First off: That thief is running Zerker (It’s the only way to get those numbers) he is also targeting another zerker spec (as the numbers clearly show)

see…

Jayce.5632:

However, if you are wearing the following amulets listed next, then you are pretty much (insert rock-hard metaphor here).
Assassin, Berserker, Carrion, Deadshot, Destroyer, Diviner, Magi, Marauder, Mender, Rampager, Sage, Seeker, Sinister, Valkyrie or Viper.

Highlie.7641:

Second: That thief either went with a full might stacking build, OR, he used a +dmg modifier spec, both of which require the thief to pick 9 offensive traits.
This leaves him with 11k life. and limited sustain.

see…

Jayce.5632:

and this particular combo build most likely would never see high tiers play.

Highlie.7641:

Third: His 9 trait choices are completly negated by ONE auto procing passive. and with the added channels, Aoes, CC’s and dot’s that where increased with hot, i’m honestly really scratching my head trying to figure out how you(or they) lost to this thief.

see…

Jayce.5632:

Hell, 26k+ out of the 50k+ combo is done from Stealth.

Highlie.7641:

In all likely hood this ss is from WvW or shortly after Hot launched the anti thief crowd have a habit of using misinformation to get there way. (look at the size of the black box, most server can easily fit into that space.

see…

Jayce.5632:

The screenshot was taken on Battle of Kyhlo just one day after the August 8 patch.

Next, see Attachments before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leUtr4Tt3Ws