Guild Wars 2

This thread is intended to analyze and criticize your team’s successful defending or the enemy’s poor offensive, and the rewards/punishment that follows.

Before I start, I understand that it already isn’t rewarding to play 5 people on defense the entire game, nor am I referring to buffing or supporting that strategy (it’s lame and not fun for both sides).

I refer to situations where the enemy team forces your team to play heavily defensive, such as 3-4 enemies pushing onto your lord with npcs. In a situation like that, let’s assume they summoned a hero, so at this point, when the enemy is pushing, they are also in the lead by points (I think summoning heroes gave the most points compared to other objectives).

So, the enemy is pushing and engages the lord. Your team is successful in rotating fast enough to defend the push and in the process you slay numerous enemies if not everyone. This is where the problem occurs, no rewards are given to your team nor are there any consequences to the enemy team, in the end, they are technically still winning because they have more points. Also, in the meantime, enemies re-spawning can spawn more npcs or do other objectives.

That problem is the infamous snowball. Once they summoned the hero, it’s more than likely that they’ll win the game. I imagine that is why many players feel either you stomp or get stomped. The current mechanics don’t allow for comebacks.

The solution? I’d start with punishing the enemy team (again, don’t want to support the 5 man defense strategy). These are my suggestions in the case that the enemy fails a push and wipes (aka your team has successfully stopped the push).

• As the timer gets closer to 0, increase the respawn timer. (This will affect both teams and give incentive to players to make smart decisions across the map)
• Give some points for killing enemies in the lord room. (If enemies know they are losing the push, they should bail or risk giving your team more points).
• If the enemy hero is slain in the lord room, your team receives supplies or npcs (this will help your team with coming back into the game).

The other way is to reward important defense events (such as wiping the enemies in your lord room).

• For each enemy slain in the lord room, your team receives an archer (so when the enemy is on respawn, they will have to worry about your team coming back)
• When your team slays an enemy hero in the lord room, your team receives the hero’s buff -50% dmg and condi duration for x minutes

That is all I can think of for now, if anyone has other suggestions, I’ll be sure to add them here.

I have a solution that is a bit simpler.

Why don’t enemy players when killed drop their supply +1?

That means you as a defender if you wipe out a full 5 man push now have 5 supply to start your own push. Right now if you wipe 5 attackers, you don’t have enough time to get supply then spawn your own attacking NPCS to get your offense started, before they can come meet you and fight again.

OP: Playing Defense is plenty rewarding. If you’re worried about defense not working when people break through two of your gates and now are zerging your lord then you should shift your focus to earlier in the game.

Deffending is actually OP when you are ahead.

Instructions to win Stronghold.

1) Take enemy 1st gate
2) Take enemy 2nd gate
3) Don’t go inside his lord room. Go back to your base and deffend whole game

I think that OP, when he says “defending” he means the situation where you are stuck in your base because, for whatever reason, the enemy team outplayed you in rotations, objectives, etc… you are stuck in your base and although you wipe them, you still have to deal with some NPCs coming through the lane + you don’t have enough time to get to the supplies.

In that situation, comebacks are unlikely to happen. There, the max you can get is stalling the game and actually losing it by timer, as you can’t push at all or gather enough objectives to gain points.

So yeah, I think OP is right.

Poliator.7021:

I think that OP, when he says “defending” he means the situation where you are stuck in your base because, for whatever reason, the enemy team outplayed you in rotations, objectives, etc… you are stuck in your base and although you wipe them, you still have to deal with some NPCs coming through the lane + you don’t have enough time to get to the supplies.

In that situation, comebacks are unlikely to happen. There, the max you can get is stalling the game and actually losing it by timer, as you can’t push at all or gather enough objectives to gain points.

So yeah, I think OP is right.

Definitely right on that. I’m not saying defending the entire game needs to change, I’m saying situations where you’re forced to defend your lord and the results of that need to change. Because, currently, if your team does well in defending the lord, nothing has changed or helped your team to come back into the game.

Poliator.7021:

I think that OP, when he says “defending” he means the situation where you are stuck in your base because, for whatever reason, the enemy team outplayed you in rotations, objectives, etc… you are stuck in your base and although you wipe them, you still have to deal with some NPCs coming through the lane + you don’t have enough time to get to the supplies.

In that situation, comebacks are unlikely to happen. There, the max you can get is stalling the game and actually losing it by timer, as you can’t push at all or gather enough objectives to gain points.

So yeah, I think OP is right.

Again….

You have to look at what went wrong before all that. If you are stuck defending like that your team didn’t defend properly to begin with.

There needs to be some amount of point recovery by killing the heros.

If that’s the situation you’re in, then you’ve been outplayed up until this point and the enemy team should win. For them to be in, you’re team either didn’t defend properly at the start and/or they did not cause enough counter pressure. Increasing the reward for defending in the lords room, would cause stronghold to be too forgiving.

If defending rewards were “buffed,” then more often that not, teams would turtle at the end and matches would end up lasting until the timer ran out.

SobeSoul.6910:

Again….

You have to look at what went wrong before all that. If you are stuck defending like that your team didn’t defend properly to begin with.

This is speaking from my personal experience, but I’ve found that both teams can be equal in terms of offense and defense. Yet, as soon as the heroes spawn, whichever team acquires the hero has a huge advantage…

That leads to my original post. Why is it that when your team successfully defends the enemy push, but the enemy is still in the lead and has respawned and went back into the map sooner than your team?

I can’t count a single other thing that has helped your team other than your lord didn’t die, but your team is still losing.

Drennon.7190:

If that’s the situation you’re in, then you’ve been outplayed up until this point and the enemy team should win. For them to be in, you’re team either didn’t defend properly at the start and/or they did not cause enough counter pressure. Increasing the reward for defending in the lords room, would cause stronghold to be too forgiving.

If defending rewards were “buffed,” then more often that not, teams would turtle at the end and matches would end up lasting until the timer ran out.

I suggested the opposite in that punishments would be given to the enemy team for dying in the lord’s room. So your team can come back into the game.

In LoL when you kill the enemy team in your own base (late in the game), the respawn is so long that you have time to punnish your opponents and push to their base

I think stronghold should be similar.

manysongsgw.2931:

Drennon.7190:

If that’s the situation you’re in, then you’ve been outplayed up until this point and the enemy team should win. For them to be in, you’re team either didn’t defend properly at the start and/or they did not cause enough counter pressure. Increasing the reward for defending in the lords room, would cause stronghold to be too forgiving.

If defending rewards were “buffed,” then more often that not, teams would turtle at the end and matches would end up lasting until the timer ran out.

I suggested the opposite in that punishments would be given to the enemy team for dying in the lord’s room. So your team can come back into the game.

I support that idea, but then a situation like this can occur:
Both teams have 250 points. Team A has made it to the lords room and gained a lot of their points from killing NPCs. Team B is through one gate and had gained a lot of their points from ignoring the objective chasing players all game.
Team B: collapses back to their base and wipes a few enemy players and decides to turtle behind their NPCs for the rest of the game.

Team B is now in the lead and wins the game. Team A lost, but was closer to completing the objective.

Who deserves the win? The objective oriented team or the team ignoring the objective and playing “death match.”

Drennon.7190:

manysongsgw.2931:

I suggested the opposite in that punishments would be given to the enemy team for dying in the lord’s room. So your team can come back into the game.

I support that idea, but then a situation like this can occur:
Both teams have 250 points. Team A has made it to the lords room and gained a lot of their points from killing NPCs. Team B is through one gate and had gained a lot of their points from ignoring the objective chasing players all game.
Team B: collapses back to their base and wipes a few enemy players and decides to turtle behind their NPCs for the rest of the game.

Team B is now in the lead and wins the game. Team A lost, but was closer to completing the objective.

Who deserves the win? The objective oriented team or the team ignoring the objective and playing “death match.”

That’s more of an issue with the timer, not the game-mode. Other MOBAs have no time limit, so game ends when one lord dies. I can see what you described happening, and hopefully Anet can balance the point system, because I’m sure that could use more work, especially in regards to defending the lord.

manysongsgw.2931:

SobeSoul.6910:

Again….

You have to look at what went wrong before all that. If you are stuck defending like that your team didn’t defend properly to begin with.

This is speaking from my personal experience, but I’ve found that both teams can be equal in terms of offense and defense. Yet, as soon as the heroes spawn, whichever team acquires the hero has a huge advantage…

That leads to my original post. Why is it that when your team successfully defends the enemy push, but the enemy is still in the lead and has respawned and went back into the map sooner than your team?

I can’t count a single other thing that has helped your team other than your lord didn’t die, but your team is still losing.

It works both ways.

Everything in this thread doesn’t read of anything being unbalanced except for team wipes not being as meaningful in this mode since it a short distance from respawn and Lord room. Which actually makes defending easier.

As soon as people nail down solid strategies and form some SH meta, I think much of the concern you have raised no longer applies.

SobeSoul.6910:

manysongsgw.2931:

This is speaking from my personal experience, but I’ve found that both teams can be equal in terms of offense and defense. Yet, as soon as the heroes spawn, whichever team acquires the hero has a huge advantage…

That leads to my original post. Why is it that when your team successfully defends the enemy push, but the enemy is still in the lead and has respawned and went back into the map sooner than your team?

I can’t count a single other thing that has helped your team other than your lord didn’t die, but your team is still losing.

It works both ways.

Everything in this thread doesn’t read of anything being unbalanced except for team wipes not being as meaningful in this mode since it a short distance from respawn and Lord room. Which actually makes defending easier.

As soon as people nail down solid strategies and form some SH meta, I think much of the concern you have raised no longer applies.

My main point is that you can successfully defend, but still be losing because nothing productive was done other than saving the lord. The enemy had no consequences dealt upon their deaths, so they’re still winning, and your team hasn’t come back.

The proposed changes would be that because the enemy failed, you have a chance to come back. I have listed possible changes in my OP.

Yeah, I know that. But if you fall behind to that point I don’t really think rewarding defense on a point wise basis is a healthy thing. Rather learning where things went wrong in the first place.

It’s kinda like saying I got 60% questions wrong on a test, but man in that one essay question I really kicked butt.

what if a failed lord push allowed you to repair the inner gate?

Marcos.3690:

In LoL when you kill the enemy team in your own base (late in the game), the respawn is so long that you have time to punnish your opponents and push to their base

I think stronghold should be similar.

Pretty much this.

Respawn timer was a built in mechanic in GvG in GW1, and while this isn’t GW1, it was very much part of the reason why a failed lord rush could give the defending team enough offensive momentum to mount a comeback attempt.

Afaik, tournament rules for conquest are individual respawn timers at 15 seconds, and while I actually couldn’t tell if it was like this in Stronghold, even if it was, the downtime on dead players seemed to short (it could have not been).

So yes, best and most simple but elegant (always a good thing) solution I’ve read so far.

eyestrain.3056:

what if a failed lord push allowed you to repair the inner gate?

I like it. This could help the defending team relieve some pressure and try to shift their momentum back to offense.