Guild Wars 2

I don’t post much on the forums, but I saw something that I feel probably isn’t right and was maybe overlooked when balancing warrior. The Endure Pain skill for warrior was reduced to 30 seconds with a 2 second duration, but the warrior trait in the Defense line, Defy Pain, is still 60 seconds, even though it procs the warrior skill Endure Pain. I was wondering if this was intentional as I was under the assumption that since it actually procs the skill Endure Pain, that it would be fitting if this trait was on a 30 second CD like the reworked Endure Pain.

Take note that this is a PvP change only, and I meant to clarify that I meant PvP only, in case people may forget this was posted in the PvP forums. In line with this amendment, I mean that the PvP trait should be reworked in accordance with the changes to the Endure Pain in PvP only.

Why should a Passive trait be reduced because a similar active skill cd was? This isn’t the first time they have done this bye look at Haste vs the trait just saying.

Ah, you are correct, but this would lead me off into another tangent. The CD disparities are much longer, 30 seconds for the Endure Pains, and only 10 seconds for Haste. I think that since this skill is such a critical one for all meta warrior builds, I feel as if it should have been looked at more in depth. In the overarching argument though I have to admit you were right.

It seems to me like a haphazard change that is one of the factors that pretty much destroyed warrior in this meta as of now.

Also look at the two traits Defy pain is a pseudo invulnerability vs Flanking Strikeswhich gives a couple secs on Quickness( stunnbreak doesn’t proc very often since have to hit while Flanking to proc- when stunned you aren’t hitting)

Defy pain cd being twice as long as a Passive proc on a 60 sec cd is healthy for the game, all Passive procs especially defensive ones need to be toned down

Well we could go into the very specific situations of each skills and trait, including that Haste is not meta in thief builds for PvP, but I wanted to argue that this change seemed poorly though out, and I believe it shows through these recent changes.

Also, they reduced the duration to 2 seconds, I understand the idea for this was to make Endure Pain more of an active thing rather than passive, but if that was the case they should have just reworked that trait honestly. I guess what I am trying to say is that this balance was poorly thought out, but you were correct in the CD argument.

Just have to look at the changes with the patch overall almost every class had to sis stain nerfs to their Meta builds

Well, I agree with that as well but I still believe maintaining the 60 second CD on the traited Endure Pain on warrior is a huge contributing factor to their downfall this meta. I still believe the trait should be looked at, because in higher tier play warriors will not be very viable anymore, because people understand how to fight warriors at that level. Warrior will still probably be strong for lower tiers because people don’t understand the conventions of fighting warrior. Anyways, you have held me see something that has been bothering me since the patch in a new light, and I appreciate that! :^D

If warriors get a passive proc CD that matches the corresponding skill, then so does every other professions. As an ele, I’d love to see our passive procs match skill CDs. Instead, one was actually nerfed recently.

Better yet, just remove all passive proc traits. Ones that proc skills but require some activity, such as Plague Sending which requires a crit, are good because they don’t just proc while the necro does nothing. Stun break procs are a bit more tricky, but there are solutions.

I agree that ideally most passive procs should be removed, it doesn’t encourage good gameplay. I just feel like this was a major blow to warrior, although I haven’t done my research on other classes like elementalist.

Ps Defy pain doesnt stunbreak also

(well the endure pain version from defy pain to be exact)

Yes nerf war further plox

Pliss no more nerfs. In all seriousness though, I understand why those skills and traits were nerfed, but warrior is such a poorly executed class, no offence to Anet, that nerfing those traits were like taking the keystone from an arch. Hopefully better changes will be made in the future for all classes. :^/

You mean poorly executed by having Lowest Weapon CDs, Highest Armor, Highest HP, Highest Passive Health regen, High Block uptime, a lot of pseudo invulnerabilities, lowest Weapon Swap recharge, High Damage…… or do you mean now it doesn’t play itself as much that it’s bad now?

Sly.9518:

You mean poorly executed by having:

Lowest Weapon CDs
not true

Highest Armor
warriors have no protection boon wich is TONS of toughness

Highest HP
not only warrior

Highest Passive Health regen,
nope not anymore (not even before the patch)

High Block uptime
more then guardian? nope

a lot of pseudo invulnerabilities
Pseudo 2 sec.. unlike real invulls on other classes

lowest Weapon Swap recharge
warrior is all about fast hands, but true

High Damage……
high.. like OK? because i think warrior is more in the middle here

or do you mean now it doesn’t play itself as much that it’s bad now?

Sure warrior has allot, but so does other classes.. dont forget that warriors have more passive stuff where other classes can kitten out tons of boons or stealth or teleport. stuff that is equal or even better then passive stats like toughness/health

nicknamenick.2437:

Sly.9518:

You mean poorly executed by having:

Lowest Weapon CDs
not true

Highest Armor
warriors have no protection boon wich is TONS of toughness

Highest HP
not only warrior

Highest Passive Health regen,
nope not anymore (not even before the patch)

High Block uptime
more then guardian? nope

a lot of pseudo invulnerabilities
Pseudo 2 sec.. unlike real invulls on other classes

lowest Weapon Swap recharge
warrior is all about fast hands, but true

High Damage……
high.. like OK? because i think warrior is more in the middle here

or do you mean now it doesn’t play itself as much that it’s bad now?

Sure warrior has allot, but so does other classes.. dont forget that warriors have more passive stuff where other classes can kitten out tons of boons or stealth or teleport. stuff that is equal or even better then passive stats like toughness/health

I was referring to before this last patch and yes they have the Lowest Weapon CDss Thief doesn’t have CDs they use a Resource Cost system which is completely different.

And yo trying to say Warrior doesn’t have some of the highest damage in game bahahahah guess you have never been hit by a 10k+ Arc divider or by an 8k Headbutt all still able to be achieved in Pvp after the patch.

And warrior was able to maintain 1100+ HP/sec health regen quite easily. Smh it’s like you have never played warrior. There is a reason you see a lot of Warriors in game especially before this last patch( low skill floor and it essentially played itself, like Guardian).

Did I say Warrior have highest block uptime? Nope no I did not.

You say Warriors can’t spit out a ton of Boons is priceless, since they can spit out high uptime of stability, Resistance, Regen, might without even trying.

The true weakness of warrior is the lack of variability in the builds. You cannot run warrior without Endure Pain and Berserker’s Stance, and Endure Pain was hit hard, therefore, the warrior in general was hit pretty hard. No one can argue against the fact that warrior has little build diversity, and it it easy to anticipate what a warrior that engages on you will be running. Knowing that they will get an Endure Pain proc at 50% HP allows you to back off as soon as you hit 50%, and when they don’t have their other Endure Pain (if you pay attention to CDs) you can finish them off easy. Any good player knows how to kite which is the ultimate counter to warrior and because of these reasons they are fairly weak IMO, and I felt they were ok before this nerf personally. Take my viewpoints with a grain of salt though, I was a warrior main and I felt I played it quite decently, and will still play it decently regardless of the nerfs or not.

@nicknamenick – Who has higher passive health regen then warrior?

Lionheart.7462:

Well, I agree with that as well but I still believe maintaining the 60 second CD on the traited Endure Pain on warrior is a huge contributing factor to their downfall this meta. I still believe the trait should be looked at, because in higher tier play warriors will not be very viable anymore, because people understand how to fight warriors at that level. Warrior will still probably be strong for lower tiers because people don’t understand the conventions of fighting warrior. Anyways, you have held me see something that has been bothering me since the patch in a new light, and I appreciate that! :^D

I’ve seen this argument thrown around before, and I think its an awful argument really. If warrior is only meta because of a single trait/skill, then that skill/trait needs to be nerfed and the rest of the class needs to be at least buffed if not flat out redesigned. Add on the needed nerfs to elite specs and just general reduction of spam (this last patch was a good start imo on reducing spam), and suddenly the original problem is fixed. Same goes for other classes. No class should only be good because of a single skill/trait

Lol, I believe it needs to be resdesigned as well, but in it’s current state, the argument is correct to a certain degree, no? It doesn’t change my argument that the nerf to Endure Pain was pretty big, and that something else needs to be buffed in order to compensate. Also, in all seriousness warrior falls off pretty hard when people know how to play against it. For example, thief can engage a warrior, take their invulnerabilities and quickly disengage to return and mop up the rest after the invulnerabilities run out. In any case, that is an aside, I agree warrior needs a rework, but what Anet did just made it hard to play warrior in this meta. They literally looked at all the meta skills, and nerfed every single one, LOL, completely crushing warrior (Arc Divider, Skull Bash, Headbutt, Endure Pain, and Healing Signet). This simply isn’t a good way to balance.

Sly.9518:

You mean poorly executed by having Lowest Weapon CDs, Highest Armor, Highest HP, Highest Passive Health regen, High Block uptime, a lot of pseudo invulnerabilities, lowest Weapon Swap recharge, High Damage…… or do you mean now it doesn’t play itself as much that it’s bad now?

I think you bring up some valid points in a lot of your posts, but what I noticed about you is that you are straight up biased. You don’t do this with thief since you play the class and view it through rose colored glasses. If thief had all of that and people were complaining I’m sure you would be telling them to learn to play or learn to counter play their mechanics. You need to learn to be partial, like I said I can respect some of the stuff you say but when I see you go in like this then its sort of hard to respect your opinion.

And btw, you forgot to add that warrior has the most telegraphed skill animations in the game. Making it very easy to dodge and predict what they are going to do.

Aza.2105:

Sly.9518:

You mean poorly executed by having Lowest Weapon CDs, Highest Armor, Highest HP, Highest Passive Health regen, High Block uptime, a lot of pseudo invulnerabilities, lowest Weapon Swap recharge, High Damage…… or do you mean now it doesn’t play itself as much that it’s bad now?

I think you bring up some valid points in a lot of your posts, but what I noticed about you is that you are straight up biased. You don’t do this with thief since you play the class and view it through rose colored glasses. If thief had all of that and people were complaining I’m sure you would be telling them to learn to play or learn to counter play their mechanics. You need to learn to be partial, like I said I can respect some of the stuff you say but when I see you go in like this then its sort of hard to respect your opinion.

And btw, you forgot to add that warrior has the most telegraphed skill animations in the game. Making it very easy to dodge and predict what they are going to do.

Nope I do the same with Thief, I have called for nerfs on quite a few things Thief has, hell the last two patches Thief Evades have been Nerfed quite substantially both times you don’t see me complaining since they were done for the health of the game , just saying, and no Warrior doesn’t have the most Telegraphed Attacks that honor almost exclusively belongs to Revenant

Sly.9518:

that honor almost exclusively belongs to Revenant

As someone who plays neither warrior nor revenant. Dodging Warrior attacks is significantly easier than rev attacks.

Also Necro probably has bigger telegraphs, but most people forget necro is even a class these days.

Crinn.7864:

Sly.9518:

that honor almost exclusively belongs to Revenant

As someone who plays neither warrior nor revenant. Dodging Warrior attacks is significantly easier than rev attacks.

Also Necro probably has bigger telegraphs, but most people forget necro is even a class these days.

Idk between the Rev Jumping Into the air swirling with mist aura, the giant Spinning staff lunge while levitating over the ground a couple feet, the Giant Red Rift that’s 600 units long and 200 units wide, the Giant Hammer over head, the Giant Red fractures in the ground at 1200 units long and 200 units wide, the Giant Misty Leap, the Giant Dragon above the head, the Giant Swirling Green vortex……. and all of these are on the most used weapons and Legends……..

Most Revs never even Use Choas Release because it will most likely miss, most just bait it with Weapon stow to make people dodge since it is the largest telegraph in game hands down and if anyone ever gets hit by it they were either stun locked or very very bad….

I’m pretty sure no other class as as big of telegraphs as Revenant does, the only Reaper one that comes close in size I would say is Executioners scythe, outside of that Deaths charge maybe.

Telegraph is how fast the skills come out, not how flashy they are. With the exception of the revenant elites most revenant skills come out fast.

Also Chaotic Release is probably the best juking skill in the game because the dragon does it’s entire animation even if you cancel the cast. However this functionality is rarely if ever used because revenants have no skills that they need to juke to cover. Unlike Necromancer where weapon stow juking is about the only way to ever get your heal off.

Crinn.7864:

Telegraph is how fast the skills come out, not how flashy they are. With the exception of the revenant elites most revenant skills come out fast.

Also Chaotic Release is probably the best juking skill in the game because the dragon does it’s entire animation even if you cancel the cast.

Telegraphed is not just how fast the skill is it is also the actual Animation, a large Tell is easier to see and easier to avoid than one that’s not as large and barely have a telegraph cast time aside, and no other class has as big of telegraphs as the Revenant, on almost all of their skills.

I already highlight every skill on the Revenant Meta weapons that have the biggest tells in Game….

Arc Divider has a massive (and distinctive) animation and particle effect. However prepatch it was impossible to dodge without preemptively anticipating it. Why? Because it was fast, not because it was quiet.

Speed is everything. Particle effect size is irrelevant once you get out of silver.

Again it’s just not speed if you actually read what I posted I never said Cast time didn’t impact it, but animations do since you see them more through all of the particle affects flying around, and good thin I have never been below G3 in any of he seasons.

And again you were trying to Say revenant doesn’t have the biggest Telegraphed skills, show me a skill that is more telegraphed than Chaotic Release or Drop the Hammer……

Sly.9518:

Again it’s just not speed if you actually read what I posted I never said Cast time didn’t impact it, but animations do since you see them more through all of the particle affects flying around, and good thin I have never been below G3 in any of he seasons.

And again you were trying to Say revenant doesn’t have the biggest Telegraphed skills, show me a skill that is more telegraphed than Chaotic Release or Drop the Hammer……

Yeah I’ve been playing hammer lately for fun and even people who aren’t familiar with the weapon still dodge Drop the Hammer. In fact all hammer skills are easy to predict and dodge aside from the autoattack. But Unrelenting Assault and Mace 2 + 3 are also quite easy to see and dodge. Staff 5 isn’t that easy to dodge if you’re in melee range, but rev’s weapon skill rotation is so easy to predict that you just know when they’re going to use it subconsciously. That last part is what makes Rev much more “telegraphed” imo; low build variety and relatively few weapon choices.

most other classes trait auto procs have higher cds then their utility counterparts. defy pain shouldn’t be any different.

Crinn.7864:

Sly.9518:

that honor almost exclusively belongs to Revenant

As someone who plays neither warrior nor revenant. Dodging Warrior attacks is significantly easier than rev attacks.

Also Necro probably has bigger telegraphs, but most people forget necro is even a class these days.

Can’t tell if serious lol. Revenant has the most obvious rotation in the game. Being able to dodge attacks is different from knowing what attack is coming. Just because I don’t have the resources to dodge or block UA doesn’t mean it’s not the most obvious skill ever.

Necro has telegraphs? Where lol? From range in the back with the minions and Mesmer clones and other AoE graphic spam, I can totally see the corrupt boon being cast! Marks are like so obvious how does anyone get hit! /s

Sly.9518:

Again it’s just not speed if you actually read what I posted I never said Cast time didn’t impact it, but animations do since you see them more through all of the particle affects flying around, and good thin I have never been below G3 in any of he seasons.

And again you were trying to Say revenant doesn’t have the biggest Telegraphed skills, show me a skill that is more telegraphed than Chaotic Release or Drop the Hammer……

Gravedigger doesn’t have a single particle effect. Yet nobody above bronze ever gets hit with Gravedigger. Because it’s slow.

Chaotic Release and Drop are easy to dodge becuase they are both slow. The particle effect size is irrelevant. If Chaotic Release applied it’s effects in 1/4th second it wouldn’t be possible to react to even if the size of the dragon was increase 200%.

Necro has the largest telegraphs because Necro has the longest casts. Just spend 5 minutes on a necro alt and memorize their animations.

Also you should never ever use particle effects as your primary source of telegraph. Particle effects do not cancel if the ability they are associated with is interrupted. Juking people that watch effects is easy because they won’t notice the cancels.

Crinn.7864:

Sly.9518:

Again it’s just not speed if you actually read what I posted I never said Cast time didn’t impact it, but animations do since you see them more through all of the particle affects flying around, and good thin I have never been below G3 in any of he seasons.

And again you were trying to Say revenant doesn’t have the biggest Telegraphed skills, show me a skill that is more telegraphed than Chaotic Release or Drop the Hammer……

Gravedigger doesn’t have a single particle effect. Yet nobody above bronze ever gets hit with Gravedigger. Because it’s slow.

Chaotic Release and Drop are easy to dodge becuase they are both slow. The particle effect size is irrelevant. If Chaotic Release applied it’s effects in 1/4th second it wouldn’t be possible to react to even if the size of the dragon was increase 200%.

Necro has the largest telegraphs because Necro has the longest casts. Just spend 5 minutes on a necro alt and memorize their animations.

Also you should never ever use particle effects as your primary source of telegraph. Particle effects do not cancel if the ability they are associated with is interrupted. Juking people that watch effects is easy because they won’t notice the cancels.

Bahahahah The animation is still part of the telegraph it’s both the Cast time and the animation that make up the telegraph not just one or the other, so again name any skill with a bigger telegraph than a chaotic Release and drop the Hammer…

And by your example of chaotic release on a 1/4 sec never being Dodge able rofl, many skills have 1/4 second casts with next to no telegraph at all and people still dodge them all the time intentionally, like Headshot has a small telegraph yet people are able to dodge or block it alll the time, so if Chaotic Relase had a 1/4 cast with its giant animation people would dodge it a lot easier than Headshot and the like. Smh

And so you know The Tells for chaotic release are more than just the animation and cast time, any attentive player know exactly when the facet is activated( a tell on both the Ground and on the Revs status bar) the cast time and animation so again point out a bigger Tell than That…..

People dodge 1/4th skills by anticipation which is unrelated to telegraph. It is not possible to react to a 1/4th telegraph because the lower bounds of human reaction time is 0.2-0.3 + latency.