Guild Wars 2

Almost every point I make will be towards growing the gw2 pvp population in the long term. Not like this short term growth caused by free ascended gear.

1) Make elite specs unlocked for free accounts in PvP. New players are at a CLEAR disadvantage when they play. Almost every successful competitive game provides equal grounds to even newer players.

2) Make basic hints and tips for newer players. Even loading screen stuff could help. The suggested build template was a step in the right direction.

3) Improve spectating and possibly add a record/replay option.

4) Reduce the effectiveness of passives and don’t introduce many with the next expansion. Things like frost aura, engi’s bunker down trait, dragonhunter’s stunbreak trait, necro’s chill of death trait etc.

5) Reduce the effectiveness of instant cast skills. Ele scepter air #2 is weak so that would be fine, but things like reaper shouts or GM spite trait that casts axe 3, steal, smite are not okay. I’m not necessarily saying give them a cast time, but a nerf in any way should suffice. Suggestions #4 and #5 will simultaneously improve ease of spectating with less “random stuff” going on as well as decreasing the amount of skills/traits with zero counterplay.

6) Make balance patches every 1 or 2 months max.

7) Add weekly automated tournaments for teams to compete for stuff/prestige.

8) Limit matchmaking to a certain range. 2200 should not play with 1600. Longer queue times are acceptable. Decay and volatility has been worked out which is great. Decay must go further than -700. Duo Q can stay or go, I won’t advocate any in this topic as I made another one to focus on that but there needs to be a vote. If Duo Q does stay, it should count both players as the higher player’s MMR. Right now it takes the average so a good player on a smurf can help his buddy by getting them easier matchups.

But what do I know about making a successful PvP mmorpg, I’m just a philosophy undergrad.

Sevenfold.8702:

8) Limit matchmaking to a certain range. 2200 should not play with 1600. Longer queue times are acceptable. Decay and volatility has been worked out which is great. Decay must go further than -700. Duo Q can stay or go, I won’t advocate any in this topic as I made another one to focus on that but there needs to be a vote. If Duo Q does stay, it should count both players as the higher player’s MMR. Right now it takes the average so a good player on a smurf can help his buddy by getting them easier matchups.

Reducing “match quality”, in other words “poor quality”, might seem the only solution for devs to reducing queue times. However under the old system both were fine. Need to reconsider what “match quality” actually means. Unless there is significantly less players in less than a year.

Sevenfold.8702:

5) Reduce the effectiveness of instant cast skills. Ele scepter air #2 is weak so that would be fine, but things like reaper shouts or GM spite trait that casts axe 3, steal, smite are not okay. I’m not necessarily saying give them a cast time, but a nerf in any way should suffice. Suggestions #4 and #5 will simultaneously improve ease of spectating with less “random stuff” going on as well as decreasing the amount of skills/traits with zero counterplay.

Are you seriously comparing weapons skill with utility, traits and profession’s mechanics?
If you compare your scepter air #2 with steal’s damage [trained]:
Scepter: 426 damage on 5 sec CD
Steal: 399 damage on 30 sec CD, 20,75 sec CD [trained]

so.. lol, if they add a casting time to steal I hope they make it to steal target’s gold.

all good suggestions.

Nice list, I just disagree with #1. I would like to see elite specs nerfed until they are in line with core specs, but I don’t want them to be made freely available to players who haven’t purchased the expansion

1. Disagree. Elite specs should be nerfed so that they’re not so stacked. This would also promote skillful play. The benefit to buying HoT should be more variety – not more power.
2. Wouldn’t help much. Most people don’t bother reading those.
3. Good for a stretch goal, but there are more immediate issues.
4. Some passives are okay. The problem are the passives which completely negate mistakes. Getting protection for a few seconds when stunned is reasonable. Breaking out of stun and getting another bonus when being stunned is too much.
5. You’re mixing instant-cast skills and procs. Instant-cast skills are okay when they can’t be excessively stacked or have a down-side. Instant damage procs are almost universally unhealthy.
6. Balance patch frequency is subjective. Doing a few small things every month is one way, but doing more substantial things every 2-3 months is also reasonable. The problem we’re seeing is that we have substantial outliers which don’t get addressed in balance patches at all. So it’s less about frequency and more about scope.
7. Agree
8. Disagree. The matchmaker already tries to match players of similar rating, but with low population in off-hours, you can’t have players wait forever. Your boosting change affects nothing as players who want to boost will just make an alt account where they intentionally lose games before they boost.

1. STRONGLY agree
2. STRONGLY agree
3. Agree
4. STRONGLY agree
5. Agree
6. Disagree—I say every two weeks
7. STRONGLY agree
8. Disagree— Duo Queue? GONE. Put in 5v5. That alone will have a big impact on matchmaking. Mixed queues of 2s and 3s mess up the system.

Exedore.6320:

8. Disagree. The matchmaker already tries to match players of similar rating, but with low population in off-hours, you can’t have players wait forever. Your boosting change affects nothing as players who want to boost will just make an alt account where they intentionally lose games before they boost.

A year ago balance was better in solo q offpeak because peak times you’d get an endless string of premades. So either roster padding isn’t necessary or there are a lot less people playing. Also a year ago rating adjustments between games was insignificant which would make smurfing less rewarding. You’d have to play a lot of matches to effect your rating. There was a lot of creative thought put into the matchmaking system and it achieves several aims. Granted. But the cost is poor quality games so it’s currently a failure.

Solid suggestion list. I agree with a poster above me that elite specs should not be available to all players, but instead should just be brought in line. Another option for this would be to make the class mechanic focused line (discipline, arcane, invocation etc..) a basic elite spec. (Can’t be used with elite spec, and put it at elite spec level).

Apart from this I think having top MMR matches available for everyone to spectate (simillar to the system in dota, where any player can go and watch top level play to learn and enjoy). It would raise interest in high level play and esl for newer players and help them learn the concepts that every player should know for favoring momentum over static points, disengaging etc..

Good sugestions, but, BUT…Balance, matchaking, mechanics are one thing, and I think there is a large group of players who doesn’t really pay attention to this things. IMHO if rewards that we have now don’t convince people to play pvp, nothing will do unless they start throwing legendaries for daily win.
By constantly playing matches for ‘x’ time we are rewarded more than playing PvE the same amount of time. I would say way more.
Some people just don’t like PvP at all, and they have many reasons to this. And I think that almost everyone who will ever convince yourself to play pvp, already did this. Ofc we still have new players and this is not applicable to them. But making PvP more POPULAR among old players? Ehhh ;/

Also i think there should be separate only solo queue for all these who are afraid of premades :P

Surely the developers know about most or all of these problems.

I would feel a lot better about the game going forward if we heard a real vision of PvP for the future from the team. Maybe an AMA from the PvP Lead could work, but at the very least:

a layout of problems of which they’re aware, possible solutions

and a general direction they’d like to see the gametype go — could probably fit in definitive news about the future of GW2 eSports.

And not just some dreamy article from the comms team about how fun and exciting and full of fresh ideas the game is. Like, an honest attempt to address the issues we have with the game.

The toxicity in this game feels -to me, at least- to be at an all-time-high. And I think that’s just a symptom of an unfinished gametype that hasn’t gotten enough love from the developers. We’re looking for simple fixes, and a schedule of implementation – or at least an honest appraisal of how little effort PvP really gets – I think that would get us out of the limbo.

Well just in case GW2 PvP mode completely failscade. You’ll have a backup Action MMORPG to pvp in. ZOS announced a few days ago that 4v4v4 battle grounds will be included with the Morrowind Expansion for ESO in June of this year.

However unlike GW2 where everything except for legendaries are handed to you. In ESO you’ll have to grind and work tooth and nail to get your gear, and champion points in order to attempt to be competitive in PvP over there. So I guess that last sentence pretty much counts out at least %95 if not more of the current GW2 core players. On the flip side proc meta has been completely abolished.

No but on a more serious note. All ANet needs to do inorder to make PvP in GW2 back popular. Is just follow suit with all of the other popular PvP games out.

- Meaningful balance patches every 2 to 4 weeks.

- Absolutely no class stacking allowed in Ranked Queue.

- Harsh punishment for players who troll matches by throwing them.

- More types of game modes. So that players can work their way up the ladder. For 3v3 to 4v4 to 5v5 to the big show 5v5 conquest.

- Either better match maker system for 5v5 conquest. If system can not support quality matches for 5v5 conquest, then used the prior point I made here.

These are what makes PvP popular in the successful PvP games. GW2 will absolutely never become popular unless what is said above is done. Those are just he basics to a healthy PvP game that has a high chance turning into a real competitive eSports.

Some of these are good, but #1 is important. HoT and F2P effectively made sPVP a form of pay2win. Lots of free players end up just quitting entirely when they find out the only good meta builds for their class pretty much REQUIRE Elite specializations due to how broken they are.

Reaper Alim.4176:

GW2 will absolutely never become popular unless what is said above is done.

this is a perfect example of how not to present your ideas.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Reaper Alim.4176:

GW2 will absolutely never become popular unless what is said above is done.

this is a perfect example of how not to present your ideas.

I know it’s harsh. But is it not true? Sorry, I am one for tough love. And has a super tough skin from receiving loads of it in the past.

Reaper Alim.4176:

snipples

theyre great ideas but if I was a dev that would give me a reason to ignore the post.

Neah.

The best way to improve PvP is add new achievements and new titles, like they just did.

All is vain.

I want to say something here:

A game needs to be fun before it can be competitive.

If you think the reverse, you will fail.

If a game is fun to play, people will come. You can witness this in real life. Basketball, chess, soccer. For a game to be competitive, it not only needs to be fun to play, but fun to watch.

Gw2 pvp failed when it tried to be competitive before being fun.

I played many (not all of course) MMORPG and I think GW2 pvp (and game itself) is best among all i saw. In fact its pvp is so much diverse and dynamic that the newby will be instantly shocked. GW2 pvp is really demanding and you have to waste much much time and efforts just not to die in first 10 seconds of a teamfigh. Another problem is how to find good pvp party. We need two things:
1) PVP education programm. It must be flexible and include many stages mainly as part of PVE quests, guild missions and so on. Perhaps it is possible to attract top pvp players as voluntary pvp mentors united in some guild or something like that. Current PVE practice is very far from the PVP reality. Players can fight not some monster but AI NPC classes.
2) It is nearly impossible to find good PVP team. Good teams live like sects and its absolutly natural that they dont want to share there secrets and waste there time. I think devs must use a combination of methods to encourage pvp teammembers to find each other during some quests, in PVP guilds and so on.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Reaper Alim.4176:

snipples

theyre great ideas but if I was a dev that would give me a reason to ignore the post.

So you are suggesting devs all act like children and lack the critical thinking and logic to take valid points from something just because it was stated in a blunt manner, okay…

zinkz.7045:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Reaper Alim.4176:

snipples

theyre great ideas but if I was a dev that would give me a reason to ignore the post.

So you are suggesting devs all act like children and lack the critical thinking and logic to take valid points from something just because it was stated in a blunt manner, okay…

I don’t know all devs. For instances for sure doomed at the start MMORPGs turned in greatness… Eve Online by CCP on not one, but 4 different times, after getting rid of their pride has turned that game from it’s death bed into the the MMO of legend. Eve Online will forever kittened into history as one of the few MMOs if not the only MMOs to not only have 4000 player battles. But the biggest and most expensive battle in all of gaming over 30000 players involved over the course of 23hours and loses added up to over $215,000 USD, yes the battle of B-R in Eve, a MMO that nearly died is now forever has a place in history. Next up FFXIV by Square Enix swallowed their pride and turn that train wreak into a top tier’ed MMORPG. They took that game offline to rebuild it. And lets not forget the last one ESO by ZOS, they even abandoned their not so fun view of that game. They have become more open with the community, and has the road map for this year for us players to see. Now that game is currently looking like it ’MAY" actually have a shot at being a WoW killer.

Now rather if ANet is able to do the same is yet to be seen. But at current moment all but PvE is extremely vain in GW2. And no competitive scene build up from ANet for either game modes WvW or PvP in the near foreseeable future. So ofc their ESL players are going to leave. However if ANet is able to do what those other MMOs did in the past. GW2’s PvP and WvW will have a future, and become competitive. And may even be able to also find it self etched into history for having some Epic event happen in it.

But again fear not for GW2 is the only super causal MMORPG on the market at current time. So I’m pretty sure ANet will push that in the next expansion as well. So expect even more power creep in order to make GW2 even more causal then it is now. GW2 is in no threat of dying. However it’s PvP and WvW scenes may be dying, but it’s causal PvE scene will carry GW2, harder then the ex ESL players have to carry competely useless players on their teams in Season 5.

zinkz.7045:

So you are suggesting devs all act like children and lack the critical thinking and logic to take valid points from something just because it was stated in a blunt manner, okay…

that’s a huge leap. I was stating that the post imo came across as arrogant and needy. nice flame attempt tho.

its hard to tell what someone is coming across as over the interwebs. upon reading more of reaper he sounds like a chill person.

Sevenfold.8702:

4) Reduce the effectiveness of passives and don’t introduce many with the next expansion. Things like frost aura, engi’s bunker down trait, dragonhunter’s stunbreak trait, necro’s chill of death trait etc.

This is beyond kittened and i keep seeing it spewed over and over again.

Lets see, lest assume that 1 out of 20 players likes pvp (yes im going to be generous towards pvp popularity), those 1 out of 20 players like the spiky gamplay and button mashing that pvp ALREADY CATERS TO.

If the question is how to entice the OTHER 19 players, you are not going to do it by doubling down on something they already DISLIKE.

PVP needs to slow down, have MORE SIGNIFICANT PASSIVES THROUGH TRAITS, and less spiky and button mashing game play.

It would also help a lot, to have trait lines that are actually focused on one thing, instead of having multiple lines that need to be used together.

Apolo.5942:

button mashing that pvp ALREADY CATERS TO.

If the question is how to entice the OTHER 19 players, you are not going to do it by doubling down on something they already DISLIKE.

PVP needs to slow down, have MORE SIGNIFICANT PASSIVES THROUGH TRAITS, and less spiky and button mashing game play.

It would also help a lot, to have trait lines that are actually focused on one thing, instead of having multiple lines that need to be used together.

button mashing = ded
catering to the lowest skilled player is dumb
no it doesn’t need to slow down, slow people need to speed up
last one is good and has interest

Apolo.5942:

Sevenfold.8702:

4) Reduce the effectiveness of passives and don’t introduce many with the next expansion. Things like frost aura, engi’s bunker down trait, dragonhunter’s stunbreak trait, necro’s chill of death trait etc.

This is beyond kittened and i keep seeing it spewed over and over again.

Lets see, lest assume that 1 out of 20 players likes pvp (yes im going to be generous towards pvp popularity), those 1 out of 20 players like the spiky gamplay and button mashing that pvp ALREADY CATERS TO.

If the question is how to entice the OTHER 19 players, you are not going to do it by doubling down on something they already DISLIKE.

PVP needs to slow down, have MORE SIGNIFICANT PASSIVES THROUGH TRAITS, and less spiky and button mashing game play.

It would also help a lot, to have trait lines that are actually focused on one thing, instead of having multiple lines that need to be used together.

I love PvP. I came to GW2 in what? 2013 for the PvP in WvW winded up in sPvP in 2015. Enjoyed PvP in GW2 and telling ANet to shut up and take my money left and right. Then HoT release changed both WvW and PvP into something I personnal couldn’t enjoy. I tried to force myself to stay did so up until mid Season 3 the straw that broke my camels back. Then started to PvE alot with a little PvP and WvW.

Now I’m exclusively a PvEer in GW2. I go elsewhere for both my sPvP and RvR cravings. So if players are in the same boat as me. It’s not that we don’t like PvP. We just don’t like what PvP turned into in GW2 these days. There is a huge difference between the two. I still remember back in Seasons 1 and 2 I had a active PvP and WvW friends list of 50 plus players. Season 3 rolled around that dropped to about 15. After Season 4 ended I was lucky to see 5 of my PvP, or WvW friends logged in at the same time.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Apolo.5942:

button mashing that pvp ALREADY CATERS TO.

If the question is how to entice the OTHER 19 players, you are not going to do it by doubling down on something they already DISLIKE.

PVP needs to slow down, have MORE SIGNIFICANT PASSIVES THROUGH TRAITS, and less spiky and button mashing game play.

It would also help a lot, to have trait lines that are actually focused on one thing, instead of having multiple lines that need to be used together.

button mashing = ded
catering to the lowest skilled player is dumb
no it doesn’t need to slow down, slow people need to speed up
last one is good and has interest

You just made my point, you an avid pvper like frenetic combat, the issue is not how to make the gameplay so you like it even better, but how to make it so the people that dont like frenetic combat (which are the grand majority of the player base mind you), get into pvp. You are NOT going to achieve that by doubling down on making pvp even more frenetic.

What you like is irrelevant, what the people that dont pvp like is what the devs need to go after to increase its popularity.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

I understand where youre coming from, but making something all inclusive completely undermines its value. for a games competitive scene that spells disaster. take any fps for example, or even chess. the rules are simple, the quest to the top is not. if the top is reachable to anyone, then no one will reach for it because its so easy and thus has no value.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I understand where youre coming from, but making something all inclusive completely undermines its value. for a games competitive scene that spells disaster. take any fps for example, or even chess. the rules are simple, the quest to the top is not. if the top is reachable to anyone, then no one will reach for it because its so easy and thus has no value.

1- there is no gw2 competitive scene, they need to go back to the drawing board and acknowledge that what they have done so far has been one kitten up after another.

i would like to know what is the average amount of pvp queued players at any given time, i would be seriously surprised if it ever reached 1k world wide, its the only way to explain long waiting times, it means you cant put 10 people together with roughly the same skill lvl. That is how dire the pvp situation is.

2- A change is gameplay design is by no means all inclusive, its simply a change in how the game is played. Since HOT pvp has become ever increasingly more frenetic and spiky, while pve tends to be more methodical and technically based (generally speaking). PvP popularity has greatly decreased while pve has increased. So you can either double down on your current design and say kitten it let be what it can, or you shift the design, but something has to give.

Shifting design is of course easier said than done, mainly because the trait system is atrociously bad, and it was even worst before HOT.

Anet need to define archetypes and class intrinsically qualities that need to be trait line independent and then specialize trait lines for weapons and skill types.

For instance lets take warrior. What are things that characterize warriors game play.
Passive Regen
Used to be fast weapon Swapping
Cleaning conditions tied to Adrenal expenditure.
These are all things that you simply have to have to have a functioning warrior build, they should NOT be tied to trait lines, you should always have them.
Now lets take a look a sword traits, there is one is STRENGTH, many in ARMS that benefit indirectly through Fury upkeep, and then you Have some in TACTICS, through PS.

WHY?, the better design would be to have them all concentrated on a single line.

The worst offender is the Scrapper, where giros are essentially moving turrets.

Apolo.5942:

there is no gw2 competitive scene, they need to go back to the drawing board and acknowledge that what they have done so far has been one kitten up after another.

…aaand I’m saying that’s because casuals are more important then vets. that might work for pve but not here.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Apolo.5942:

there is no gw2 competitive scene, they need to go back to the drawing board and acknowledge that what they have done so far has been one kitten up after another.

…aaand I’m saying that’s because casuals are more important then vets. that might work for pve but not here.

They have not catered to casuals, the ever increasing spiky and frenetic combat does not lend it self well to casual gameplay.

GW2 pvp has never been casual friendly, a mildly experienced player will crush a casual with out much effort, that has always been true in GW2 and still is and incidentally has always been exacerbated through gross class imbalance.

AND you are missing the bigger picture, there HAS NEVER BEEN a gw2 competitive scene, pvp has been a big flop since launch, i know i played all the way from gw1 nightfall to now.

That is why the direction should have shifted long ago, it is no that now pvp is unpopular and the devs struggle with long q times, this has always been the case.

there was the soldier/cele bunker meta, then hot came with massive power creep. both allowed casuals to be carried by builds. the rewards system, the solo/duo q only, the matchmaking system in the past that allowed people to grind into legend, the fact that the leaderboard wasn’t locked from new f2p accounts… why are you trying to say that gw2 pvp doesn’t cater to casuals lol?

yeah the wts never happened, the 250k prize pool was a sham, pro teams a myth… seriously what the hell. what planet are you on? if what you are trying to say is that the pvp scene isn’t up to par compared to other games, ofc that’s true. are you also saying that it cant be? if so then I don’t and wont share that surrender. I’m going to continue to post on these forums until they shut them down.
/chestthump

Apolo.5942:

2- A change is gameplay design is by no means all inclusive, its simply a change in how the game is played. Since HOT pvp has become ever increasingly more frenetic and spiky, while pve tends to be more methodical and technically based (generally speaking). PvP popularity has greatly decreased while pve has increased. So you can either double down on your current design and say kitten it let be what it can, or you shift the design, but something has to give.

It’s easy to fix: nerf elite specs.

PvP got worse because elite specs added more stuff total, were over-tuned to make up for playstyle shortfalls, and added a lot of “get out of jail free” cards. PvE got better because the creature and encounter mechanics became more challenging. You can nerf elite specs without affecting PvE.

Exedore.6320:

Apolo.5942:

2- A change is gameplay design is by no means all inclusive, its simply a change in how the game is played. Since HOT pvp has become ever increasingly more frenetic and spiky, while pve tends to be more methodical and technically based (generally speaking). PvP popularity has greatly decreased while pve has increased. So you can either double down on your current design and say kitten it let be what it can, or you shift the design, but something has to give.

It’s easy to fix: nerf elite specs.

PvP got worse because elite specs added more stuff total, were over-tuned to make up for playstyle shortfalls, and added a lot of “get out of jail free” cards. PvE got better because the creature and encounter mechanics became more challenging. You can nerf elite specs without affecting PvE.

As i said above, pvp was never popular to begin with, sure it might have been marginally better than now, before HOT, but the idea to REALLY make it popular.

Apolo isnt worth it. remember, this is the guy who made the ‘All amulets need +500 armor AT LEAST’ thread because he was dying so fast. his advice is about as useful as my flatmate Winston’s, & he’s a Jamaican man in his 70s who doesn’t own a computer.

choovanski.5462:

Apolo isnt worth it. remember, this is the guy who made the ‘All amulets need +500 armor AT LEAST’ thread because he was dying so fast. his advice is about as useful as my flatmate Winston’s, & he’s a Jamaican man in his 70s who doesn’t own a computer.

And that is completely in line with what i am saying here, but no you are right, lets plow ahead and keep doing what clearly has not made pvp popular, that will show them!!!!.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Apolo.5942:

(…)

button mashing = ded
catering to the lowest skilled player is dumb
no it doesn’t need to slow down, slow people need to speed up
last one is good and has interest

I think gw2 already catters to the slowest players, cause that deppends how skills are designed and rotations needed to kill targets VS what can counter that, and anet dont like strong defensive gameplay its all in the damage even if class have strong sirviability, so players dont need to learn that much how to play the game, its all at first in the damage output or how fast can u mash your max damage output in the target.

GW2 is very button mashable overall, that actually catters to the slowest people, they need to focus more in the builds than the gameplay, its a matter of timming and keep farming the pvp things.

Still it is not hard to hit targets wit alot of damage, dont forget we are using pve classes that were designed to be super simple and dull as well in the pve, and most time carry the players with damage so they feel ballsy, and class balance is very sucky.

GW1 pvp > GW2 pvp