Guild Wars 2

Suggestion;
You and allies in the area gain Diamond skin for 3 seconds when you attune to Earth.
or
When in Earth, you are immune to conditions.

A 100% always-on condition block is just unnecessary. I don’t even need to make an essay of the matter, I KNOW we all agree.

i haven’t played sPvP since 10 dec but how just hard it is to reduced an elementalist’s health from 100% to 89% ?

i played an elementalist once before 10 dec and she died within seconds upon contact with enemy.

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

one has to adjust the strategy in approaching an ele with diamond skin. i was facing some in yoloQ a few hours ago and have to say it was okay to deal with it.
in theory it was harder than it was actually

Diamond Skin is a bad trait, 10% of an eles hp is nothing….needs a rework because it is bad, not because a few necros waste all their skills on an immune target.

UltraHiDef.4809:

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

The fact is, 1.4k damage is not the general number for every Ele meaning another could take 3k damage or more to bring them down below that threshold.

When I call for smart play, I don’t just call for nerfing it so that Necros can kill them, I’m calling for smart play on the Ele side because, with either of the suggestions I gave above, it becomes a case of bouncing between Earth and Water. The trait would encourage switching and bouncing between attunements, choosing the right time to deal damage or choosing the right time to go invulnerable to conditions.

Frankly this trait right now is just, “I’ll stay in water to bunker this point against this condi Necro or condi Engie and stay at 100% because I can.” No smart play, no counter play.

Dirame.8521:

UltraHiDef.4809:

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

The fact is, 1.4k damage is not the general number for every Ele meaning another could take 3k damage or more to bring them down below that threshold.

When I call for smart play, I don’t just call for nerfing it so that Necros can kill them, I’m calling for smart play on the Ele side because, with either of the suggestions I gave above, it becomes a case of bouncing between Earth and Water. The trait would encourage switching and bouncing between attunements, choosing the right time to deal damage or choosing the right time to go invulnerable to conditions.

Frankly this trait right now is just, “I’ll stay in water to bunker this point against this condi Necro or condi Engie and stay at 100% because I can.” No smart play, no counter play.

“3k damage”

No ele has 30k health. Sorry.

Also, ele’s who spec into 30 Earth will not put 30 in Water, giving them a lot less health. Most bunkerish that even decide to do Diamond Skin go 30 Arcane, 30 Earth, and 10 Water because of Evasive Arcana.

The whole concept is bad: 100% immunity above 90% then 100% useless below it.

Since I like theorycrafting…

Trigger: Attunement swapping. (when in effect, the trait is displayed as a buff by a special diamon-shaped icon on brown background)

For 3 seconds, block the next 2 attack skills against you and, for each skill blocked, reflect 1000 damage back to the attacker and lose one condition.
If you attuned to earth, the trait effect is shared with up to 2 party members within a range of 600.
Can only be triggered once every 15 seconds.

Or

Lose all boons. For each boon lost, you lose one condition, gain 50 toughness for 5 seconds (does not stack) and also gain 200 health.
Can only trigger once every 15 seconds.
Triggers on attuning to earth.

Anyone and everyone who says diamond skin builds are anything but UP is a noob.

#eletism

Ryld.1340:

Dirame.8521:

UltraHiDef.4809:

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

The fact is, 1.4k damage is not the general number for every Ele meaning another could take 3k damage or more to bring them down below that threshold.

When I call for smart play, I don’t just call for nerfing it so that Necros can kill them, I’m calling for smart play on the Ele side because, with either of the suggestions I gave above, it becomes a case of bouncing between Earth and Water. The trait would encourage switching and bouncing between attunements, choosing the right time to deal damage or choosing the right time to go invulnerable to conditions.

Frankly this trait right now is just, “I’ll stay in water to bunker this point against this condi Necro or condi Engie and stay at 100% because I can.” No smart play, no counter play.

“3k damage”

No ele has 30k health. Sorry.

Also, ele’s who spec into 30 Earth will not put 30 in Water, giving them a lot less health. Most bunkerish that even decide to do Diamond Skin go 30 Arcane, 30 Earth, and 10 Water because of Evasive Arcana.

All that matters is that you got the point I was trying to make. A bunker Ele can now go 10 in Arcana and not feel too much of a sting in recharge times. Not every Ele will use evasive arcana and to get most out of this trait, you do need quite a bit of health.

As an elementalist I can quite honestly say Diamond Skin is useless.

The only time it is effective is if you 1v1 against a complete idiot. Look at that now “famous” video of the Elly vs Necro. All the Necro did was try and spam his conditions, he tried fear, he tried torment, bleeds. And you just stare at him clicking his buttons thinking “what are you doing ¬.¬”

In counter to that video, if you watch the longer version (you know, not the one that just shows the first duel) you’ll see a thief joins in later, one HS and the elly was below the fresh hold and the Necro started loading him up.

Honestly, make an elly and try Diamond Skin yourself – Random AoE not even targeted at you knocks your health out of the threshold, and forget it if the enemies stick a target on your head.

This is just like the old 100 blades complaints. Once everyone learnt to dodge, 100 blades went out the window. Once Necros start learning not to pop signet of spite at the start of a fight Diamond Skin will be recognized for the rubbish it is.

Imo, diamond skin should:

• always give -50% condition duration for conditions that dont do damage. (Vulnerability, cripple etc)
• -50% damaging condition duration above 75% health. (Bleed torment poison burn confusion)

It would make it a bit less useless.

Phaeton.9582:

Anyone and everyone who says diamond skin builds are anything but UP is a noob.

#eletism

I have seen your posts in a few threads. I think you have missed the point entirely. You are right there aren’t any good DS builds atm. The point is it is a hard counter to one specific build type (condi). And is terrible design, i dont expect it to be good until ele gets more buffs in next patch (in 3 months!) and then ele could be ridic given their dmg atm. It just indicative of bad design where some classes cant counter it or even catch them as most cc is countered with it. And please stop with adapt BS. There is no power necro that can hold its own vs good teams and even using carrion, wurm and golem wont make a difference if the ele is paying attention and kills them quickly.

PeepMeDown.5017:

Phaeton.9582:

Anyone and everyone who says diamond skin builds are anything but UP is a noob.

#eletism

I have seen your posts in a few threads. I think you have missed the point entirely. You are right there aren’t any good DS builds atm. The point is it is a hard counter to one specific build type (condi). And is terrible design, i dont expect it to be good until ele gets more buffs in next patch (in 3 months!) and then ele could be ridic given their dmg atm. It just indicative of bad design where some classes cant counter it or even catch them as most cc is countered with it. And please stop with adapt BS. There is no power necro that can hold its own vs good teams and even using carrion, wurm and golem wont make a difference if the ele is paying attention and kills them quickly.

So yeah to the points raised here..

A It’s a ‘hard counter’ to rabid necro, exclusively 1v1, if you run the most ridiculous and unviable build.

Basically vs everything else imagine the effectiveness of a roaming hybrid ele, then halve this effectiveness.

Now you have a diamond skin build.

B: All class builds can’t ‘hold their own’ against all other class builds. If your going to talk about ‘higher level play’ it’s simple; soft counters and hard counters may as well be the same thing, as 90% of meta builds are trivial rotationally for anyone with 3.k+ hours invested into spvp.

In serious matches, some classes are expected to change the very weapons they use in order to counter matchups, never mind utilities and traits. This concept that DS could somehow leave condi necros unviable is delusional, and going off Anets rate of patching would take years of changes to be imaginable.

UltraHiDef.4809:

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

??
That’s entirely spec dependent.
It has next to nothing to do with how you play.

If you have the wrong spec (pure condi dmg) you lose.
No questions asked.
You can two or three times better at GW2, but you will still lose.

That or if it isn’t a 1v1 against a dedicated condi class (the majority of situations) diamond skin is god kitten useless.
Either way that’s the kittentiest gameplay I’ve seen.
Bad trait idea is bad.
No buff can fix a stupid idea.

i feel bad for ele’s. i was on my spirit ranger earlier in soloq and i was able to beat the same ele 3x in a row who was trying to steal our home node which i was defending alone. i’m not sure if he was just really bad or eles have gotten squishier.

and also in a different match, there was this warrior who said at the start of the match that he will not rez the ele if he died and that the ele needed to reroll to a different class.

eles need some love.

The problem is not that DS counters condi necros. The problem is that it leaves them with no realistic counterplay options (since without minions, the ele could literally AFK auto attacking and not die to the necro. I have run the math). Yes, in a teamfight it is worthless (terrible design for a grandmaster trait). Against a power build, it’s worthless (terrible design for a grandmaster trait). In anything but a 1v1 against a specific build, it is worthless. Against that one build, however, it guarantees you victory.

Terrible design is terrible design. It doesn’t matter who specifically is getting shut down entirely or who isn’t. No matter how you look at it, Diamond Skin is just a bad idea.

Eles do need some extra defense against conditions, since their health pool gets ripped through so quickly by them, but this is not the way to do it.

Isn’t any metagame more interesting when top builds need to adapt and splash a few new options onto their old builds to keep their viability? You know, where players feel forced to leave extreme builds and approach more balanced ones in order to not be hard-countered?

Condi-necros having to bring a few more power options would allow them to over-ride the inherent advantage of DS eles, at the cost of bringing a bit less condition spam to everything else, which indirectly would improve the metagame’s state.

Basically, with more hard-counters existing to fight extreme situations, buildcrafters would find it wiser to create more balanced builds, which in turn would lead to a more balanced, less extreme meta.

This, of course, is just a theory.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Isn’t any metagame more interesting when top builds need to adapt and splash a few new options onto their old builds to keep their viability? You know, where players feel forced to leave extreme builds and approach more balanced ones in order to not be hard-countered?

Condi-necros having to bring a few more power options would allow them to over-ride the inherent advantage of DS eles, at the cost of bringing a bit less condition spam to everything else, which indirectly would improve the metagame’s state.

Basically, with more hard-counters existing to fight extreme situations, buildcrafters would find it wiser to create more balanced builds, which in turn would lead to a more balanced, less extreme meta.

This, of course, is just a theory.

The most op builds aren’t even extreme. In Guild Wars 2, they tend to be builds that are good in everything, e.g. hambow, spirit ranger

I said this in the other big thread, but IMO Diamond Skin should just be a Zerker Stance copy paste. Triggers when hit with a condition at above 75% HP, 100% duration reduction for 8s with a 60s+ CD.

roamzero.9486:

I said this in the other big thread, but IMO Diamond Skin should just be a Zerker Stance copy paste. Triggers when hit with a condition at above 75% HP, 100% duration reduction for 8s with a 60s+ CD.

This would make the trait too passive and mindless. The cool thing about DS currently, is that even though it is a passive trait, it demands some active behavior, and can be counter-played. In your suggestion, an elementalist wouldn’t need to bother to keep their health high, and the opponent wouldn’t be able to counter-play it outside of waiting.

Diamond Skin has some issues, but I don’t think passive playing is one of them. The “problems” with DS lie on the fact that it is either a very specific hard counter, or it does nothing instead. That’s why the community can’t get a consensus out of it yet. Time will tell.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Isn’t any metagame more interesting when top builds need to adapt and splash a few new options onto their old builds to keep their viability? You know, where players feel forced to leave extreme builds and approach more balanced ones in order to not be hard-countered?

Condi-necros having to bring a few more power options would allow them to over-ride the inherent advantage of DS eles, at the cost of bringing a bit less condition spam to everything else, which indirectly would improve the metagame’s state.

Basically, with more hard-counters existing to fight extreme situations, buildcrafters would find it wiser to create more balanced builds, which in turn would lead to a more balanced, less extreme meta.

This, of course, is just a theory.

Necros can’t bring anything but burst otherwise we are in a huge disadvantage. Necros still have the worst survival/sustain in the game, we either go full burst and kill our enemy or lose any prolonged engagement.

Necros have been begging for survival since release. Necros were avoided in all sPvP until we got patched for more damage and have been systematically nerfed in everything we had prior to that patch since then.

Make it so when you attune to earth, you get immunity to all conditions for 4 seconds.

In the same vein, slight buff to Rock Solid; 3 seconds of stability instead of 2 seconds; which means with a bit of boon duration you could get 4 seconds of stability, to match the condi immunity of 4s with Diamond Skin.

While your at it, also make AR smarter. It’s both troll traits that add nothing fun to the game. Hard counters are plain aweful.

Towren.1745:

As an elementalist I can quite honestly say Diamond Skin is useless.

Yuuuup. It’s awesome if you want to duel a necro, otherwise ptthhhthhp

Phaeton.9582:

PeepMeDown.5017:

Phaeton.9582:

Anyone and everyone who says diamond skin builds are anything but UP is a noob.

#eletism

I have seen your posts in a few threads. I think you have missed the point entirely. You are right there aren’t any good DS builds atm. The point is it is a hard counter to one specific build type (condi). And is terrible design, i dont expect it to be good until ele gets more buffs in next patch (in 3 months!) and then ele could be ridic given their dmg atm. It just indicative of bad design where some classes cant counter it or even catch them as most cc is countered with it. And please stop with adapt BS. There is no power necro that can hold its own vs good teams and even using carrion, wurm and golem wont make a difference if the ele is paying attention and kills them quickly.

So yeah to the points raised here..

A It’s a ‘hard counter’ to rabid necro, exclusively 1v1, if you run the most ridiculous and unviable build.

Basically vs everything else imagine the effectiveness of a roaming hybrid ele, then halve this effectiveness.

Now you have a diamond skin build.

B: All class builds can’t ‘hold their own’ against all other class builds. If your going to talk about ‘higher level play’ it’s simple; soft counters and hard counters may as well be the same thing, as 90% of meta builds are trivial rotationally for anyone with 3.k+ hours invested into spvp.

In serious matches, some classes are expected to change the very weapons they use in order to counter matchups, never mind utilities and traits. This concept that DS could somehow leave condi necros unviable is delusional, and going off Anets rate of patching would take years of changes to be imaginable.

The questions I’d like to ask is, how do the suggestions that I’ve made above kill the effectiveness of the trait? Does it not improve the amount of coordination and decisions a person needs to make in a fight? And is decision making not what makes a fight (regardless of whether it be 1v1 or 3v3) fun?

They should of made DS a 40-50% reduce in condition duration or like 30% chance to reflect conditions on the caster

To ANYONE who has a problem with Diamond Skin – I dare you to make an Elementalist right now, put together a functional build with Diamond Skin (good luck), do at least 10 Solo Queue matches and tell us how much that trait helped you against everyone you faced.

People choose to use an extreme condi-only build, and literally explode into tears that ONE profession (the worst one and least played) has ONE trait that counters their extreme build? I’m sorry but…what???

“But it’s bad design!” – what does that even mean in context of SPvP and practical use? Get to the point!

Till then, please shut up and enough of this knee-jerk reaction to something that non-Ele layers have no clue about. To even REACH Diamond Skin the Ele has to make big sacrifices, just to counter 1 type of extreme-condi build. Most Ele builds don’t even have the flexibility to spare ONE point in Earth, let alone 30!!

Jesus H Christ what has this community devolved into….

The diamond skin debate in a nutshell:

People that don’t play eles or understand the ele traits – “This trait is too powerful against conditions and promotes passive play.”

People that play eles and/or understand ele traits – “Who cares? This trait doesn’t fit in any decent build anyways.”

Wintel.4873:

Let me get this straight…people choose to use an extreme condi-only build, and literally explode into tears that ONE profession (the worst one and least played) has ONE trait that counters their extreme build?

I’m sorry but…what???

“But it’s bad design!” – what does that even mean in context of SPvP and practical use? Stop beating around the bush and get straight to the point – just how useful is Diamond Skin against 95% of builds/professions out there in an real 5v5 match?

Till then, please shut up and enough of this knee-jerk reaction to something that non-Ele layers have no clue about. To even REACH Diamond Skin the Ele has to make big sacrifices, just to counter 1 type of extreme-condi build. Most Ele builds don’t even have the flexibility to spare ONE point in Earth, let alone 30!!

Jesus H Christ what has this community devolved into….

You’re missing the point I’m trying to make. The trait does not function on a level where it requests that the player use his brain against a condi specc it just requests that you stand there and laugh at them. That isn’t fun to me and I don’t think Anet should create skills or traits like that.

Dirame.8521:

Wintel.4873:

Let me get this straight…people choose to use an extreme condi-only build, and literally explode into tears that ONE profession (the worst one and least played) has ONE trait that counters their extreme build?

I’m sorry but…what???

“But it’s bad design!” – what does that even mean in context of SPvP and practical use? Stop beating around the bush and get straight to the point – just how useful is Diamond Skin against 95% of builds/professions out there in an real 5v5 match?

Till then, please shut up and enough of this knee-jerk reaction to something that non-Ele layers have no clue about. To even REACH Diamond Skin the Ele has to make big sacrifices, just to counter 1 type of extreme-condi build. Most Ele builds don’t even have the flexibility to spare ONE point in Earth, let alone 30!!

Jesus H Christ what has this community devolved into….

You’re missing the point I’m trying to make. The trait does not function on a level where it requests that the player use his brain against a condi specc it just requests that you stand there and laugh at them. That isn’t fun to me and I don’t think Anet should create skills or traits like that.

I dare you to make an Elementalist right now, put together a functional build with Diamond Skin (good luck with that btw), do at least 10 Solo Queue matches and tell us how much that trait helped you against everyone you faced.

Everything you’re spouting only exists on paper, try it in an actual match and find out for yourself instead of wasting time arguing theories. As an Elementalist I’ve tried that trait and in 9/10 fights I was severely missing putting 30 points in a more useful trait-line. My build was completely broken thanks to taking Diamond Skin. I had to resort to an awkward 0/0/30/10/30 build (semi-bunker that does pathetic damage/pressure) or 0/30/30/0/10 (fresh air build where I was brought below 90% instantly).

The Ele community still hasn’t figured out how they are supposed to use DS in their build without completely destroying their overall performance…as far as we’re concerned the DS change never happened, it’s sitting in a trait line that we have no FLEXIBILITY to go into, nor any REASON to go into.

You would’ve known all this if you played the freaking class.

Wintel.4873:

Dirame.8521:

Wintel.4873:

Let me get this straight…people choose to use an extreme condi-only build, and literally explode into tears that ONE profession (the worst one and least played) has ONE trait that counters their extreme build?

I’m sorry but…what???

“But it’s bad design!” – what does that even mean in context of SPvP and practical use? Stop beating around the bush and get straight to the point – just how useful is Diamond Skin against 95% of builds/professions out there in an real 5v5 match?

Till then, please shut up and enough of this knee-jerk reaction to something that non-Ele layers have no clue about. To even REACH Diamond Skin the Ele has to make big sacrifices, just to counter 1 type of extreme-condi build. Most Ele builds don’t even have the flexibility to spare ONE point in Earth, let alone 30!!

Jesus H Christ what has this community devolved into….

You’re missing the point I’m trying to make. The trait does not function on a level where it requests that the player use his brain against a condi specc it just requests that you stand there and laugh at them. That isn’t fun to me and I don’t think Anet should create skills or traits like that.

I dare you to make an Elementalist right now, put together a functional build with Diamond Skin (good luck with that btw), do at least 10 Solo Queue matches and tell us how much that trait helped you against everyone you faced.

Everything you’re spouting only exists on paper, try it in an actual match and find out for yourself instead of wasting time arguing theories. As an Elementalist I’ve tried that trait and in 9/10 fights I was severely missing putting 30 points in a more useful trait-line. My build was completely broken thanks to taking Diamond Skin. I had to resort to an awkward 0/0/30/10/30 build (semi-bunker that does pathetic damage/pressure) or 0/30/30/0/10 (fresh air build where I was brought below 90% instantly).

The Ele community still hasn’t figured out how they are supposed to use DS in their build without completely destroying their overall performance…as far as we’re concerned the DS change never happened, it’s sitting in a trait line that we have no FLEXIBILITY to go into, nor any REASON to go into.

You would’ve known all this if you played the freaking class.

So because you can’t build around the trait, it shouldn’t be made better in such a way that it makes you think about how you play?

I don’t get your logic in this discussion to be honest. I’m asking for the trait to be changed functionally because right now it either sucks or is too good, and you’re telling me because it sucks it shouldn’t be changed?…… I’m sorry but what???

Dirame.8521:

So because you can’t build around the trait, it shouldn’t be made better in such a way that it makes you think about how you play?

I don’t get your logic in this discussion to be honest. I’m asking for the trait to be changed functionally because right now it either sucks or is too good, and you’re telling me because it sucks it shouldn’t be changed?…… I’m sorry but what???

Ele arguments in a nutshell, right here ladies and gentlemen.

If you think the trait sucks horribly, why are you against the calls to change it?

Dirame.8521:

UltraHiDef.4809:

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

The fact is, 1.4k damage is not the general number for every Ele meaning another could take 3k damage or more to bring them down below that threshold.

When I call for smart play, I don’t just call for nerfing it so that Necros can kill them, I’m calling for smart play on the Ele side because, with either of the suggestions I gave above, it becomes a case of bouncing between Earth and Water. The trait would encourage switching and bouncing between attunements, choosing the right time to deal damage or choosing the right time to go invulnerable to conditions.

Frankly this trait right now is just, “I’ll stay in water to bunker this point against this condi Necro or condi Engie and stay at 100% because I can.” No smart play, no counter play.

So your ele has 30k health? I’m going to go on a limb here and say you’re exaggerating a bit.

Dirame.8521:

Suggestion;
You and allies in the area gain Diamond skin for 3 seconds when you attune to Earth.
or
When in Earth, you are immune to conditions.

A 100% always-on condition block is just unnecessary. I don’t even need to make an essay of the matter, I KNOW we all agree.

good post and its totally useless in team fights change functionality

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The problem is not that DS counters condi necros. The problem is that it leaves them with no realistic counterplay options (since without minions, the ele could literally AFK auto attacking and not die to the necro. I have run the math). Yes, in a teamfight it is worthless (terrible design for a grandmaster trait). Against a power build, it’s worthless (terrible design for a grandmaster trait). In anything but a 1v1 against a specific build, it is worthless. Against that one build, however, it guarantees you victory.

Terrible design is terrible design. It doesn’t matter who specifically is getting shut down entirely or who isn’t. No matter how you look at it, Diamond Skin is just a bad idea.

Eles do need some extra defense against conditions, since their health pool gets ripped through so quickly by them, but this is not the way to do it.

^Quoted for very reasonable arguments for both sides.

100% immunity against one particular build is pretty bad design wise. That’s not how you should be designing traits. Traits should be flexible, and be useable in multiple builds, against a variety of situations, and they should encourage interesting counter play from your opponent. Now I don’t play pvp, but this sounds pretty bad for any necro, since we rely so heavily on conditions. It creates a problem not just to deal enough damage, but to get close enough to our opponent to attack them. The ele would be immune to cripple as well, and our only ranged pull attack is extremely easy to dodge (it often misses on flat terrain even if you don’t dodge).

But for an ele it also sounds bad. It is such a specific trait, that it would be completely useless in any other situation. The trait specifically makes it impossible for a condition necro to win a fight. If this was done to any other class with a specific build, people would be extremely angry.

So what I am hearing from everyone is that eles and non eles think this trait is stupid and should be replaced by something that is more useful to the ele overall and is not op in one particular situation

I think that sounds fair. Devs?

Viking Jorun.5413:

Dirame.8521:

UltraHiDef.4809:

If you can’t deal 1.4k damage to the squishiest class then frankly , you deserve to lose.

The fact is, 1.4k damage is not the general number for every Ele meaning another could take 3k damage or more to bring them down below that threshold.

When I call for smart play, I don’t just call for nerfing it so that Necros can kill them, I’m calling for smart play on the Ele side because, with either of the suggestions I gave above, it becomes a case of bouncing between Earth and Water. The trait would encourage switching and bouncing between attunements, choosing the right time to deal damage or choosing the right time to go invulnerable to conditions.

Frankly this trait right now is just, “I’ll stay in water to bunker this point against this condi Necro or condi Engie and stay at 100% because I can.” No smart play, no counter play.

So your ele has 30k health? I’m going to go on a limb here and say you’re exaggerating a bit.

I probably should have said 2k.