Guild Wars 2

So, it seems to me that the fact that DPS from condis depends on only 1 stat means that the designers intended before launch that condis would only serve as a minor source of damage and that the primary purpose of condis would be utility (blind, immob, cripple, chill, poison, etc all have utility).

As a result of the power creep this summer, condis are able to put out equivalent damage to direct-damage specs. The balance team has obviously decided that condis should be a viable DPS alternative to direct damge. This poses a problem though: a power spec has to invest into three stats to get max damage output. Condi specs only have to invest in one stat to get equivalent damage output (ignoring condi proc traits on necro + engi + war). This allows them to use two of their stats (or one for some classes) for defense. Obviously this has created a meta full of tank-y condi classes that can put out equivalent (or near-equivalent) DPS to full glass specs while maintaining a great degree of survivability against direct damage.

Here’s my proposal to balance condis as a source of direct damage: cut the base damage of bleed, burning, and torment by 1/2 to 1/3 and allow condi ticks to crit.

This will force condi DPS specs to invest three stats (condi damage, precission, crit) in oreder to get equivalent DPS to direct damage specs. At the same time, I don’t believe it will completely kill tanky-condi specs as they will still be viable as back point defenders and far point assaulters, just without being able to combine the best of all worlds into a single bar.

What do you think? What are the advantages/disadvantages and how will the metagame react to forcing condi DPS specs to play glass like direct damage specs?

I already need Precision in my condition build to proc more conditions. So what you are trying to do is already a fact.

If u take away the little chance a necro has to disengage from a fight due to his toughness you will never ever see any necro or engis or even ranger in tournies again. Honestly, attacking a warrior feels like attacking a rock and attacking a necro f.e still feels like attacking smth you can actually kill, and high tournament players will agree. They should just let the condis scale more with condi dmg and reduce the damage of them overall by the same amount. Furthermore you are just wrong. Condi classes always use rabid or carrion amulett and not shaman, beside close point rangers maybe, so we already have only one defensive attribute.

yeah, no. The point of being conditions is that you have to be tanky because your damage takes time to get the job done and can be removed unlike physical damage. This could create some interesting ‘glass’ condie specs, but you can cleanse 5 stacks of criting bleeds, not a backstab. Power specs would still be favorable for glass builds the only difference would be there would be no more sustainy condie specs (could you imagine a sustain condie spec trying to kill a regen warrior after this proposed change? oh lawds i don’t want to think about it) So if you goal with this is to completely destroy conditions in this game then by golly i think this could work.

The game would be better if there was no such thing as condition damage, and that conditions were just inverse of boons. (I guess that would mean there was 1 damage condition, poison perhaps, that is the inverse of regeneration).

Is it too late for that?

(Also you can just remove Retaliation and Confusion pairing since they basically do nothing but destroy fun and force people to stare at buff/condition bars… not to mention how Retal basically makes upping the AE cap super-tricky)

Terrahero.9358:

I already need Precision in my condition build to proc more conditions. So what you are trying to do is already a fact.

True but you’re still able to invest in 1 defensive stat (which direct damage classes aren’t able to do without sacrificing a lot of DPS) and only about half of condi specs depend on crit procs.

This has been suggested in the past because something needs to be done to make condition damage more balanced when compared against power based damage. It has never been well received. Better to just tripple the number of ways classes have to cleanse conditions probably.

TheWalkingDead.7298:

yeah, no. The point of being conditions is that you have to be tanky because your damage takes time to get the job done and can be removed unlike physical damage.

This.

If it takes 20s to kill with condis VS 10s to kill using direct damage (using glass canon that dies in 10s), then logically condi-guy has to be able to survive 20s to stand a chance.

Keep in mind that condi is:
- Dispellable
- Moderated by regen over time

Flamfloz.6732:

TheWalkingDead.7298:

yeah, no. The point of being conditions is that you have to be tanky because your damage takes time to get the job done and can be removed unlike physical damage.

This.

If it takes 20s to kill with condis VS 10s to kill using direct damage (using glass canon that dies in 10s), then logically condi-guy has to be able to survive 20s to stand a chance.

Keep in mind that condi is:
- Dispellable
- Moderated by regen over time

Power specs can be blocked + blinded. If you’re able to survive the initial burst, regen moderates their effectiveness over time as well. I’m not seeing a huge difference between carrying a utility to block/blind power specs and taking a condi cleanse to counter condi dps.

This is also ignoring the fact that the most prominent condi classes at the moment (dhuumfire, spirit ranger, and engi) are designed to be BURST condi classes that power you down with burning and big stacks of short-duration bleeds. There aren’t many condi classes that try to stack big long conditions and the TTK for condi specs isn’t significantly longer than for direct damage specs (so why do they need more defensive stats?)

Errant Venture.9371:

Power specs can be blocked + blinded.

Almost all attacks can be blocked or blinded. It doesn’t really matter if they’re power or condi. It just feels like condi damage can’t be blocked/blinded because you take the damage after the missed block/blind. The only differences between condi and power are:

—instant vs. dot (power wins)
—non-removable vs. cleansable (power wins)
—condi ignores armor (condi wins)
—multiplicative vs. mostly additive stat scaling (power wins for glass cannons; condi wins for tanky dps. Condi duration could be considered multiplicative scaling.)

If I attack you with a 3000 damage direct attack, you take 3000 damage if you don’t dodge/block/blind it. If I hit you with a 3000 damage burn, you take 3000 damage if you don’t dodge/block/blind/cleanse/regen it.

In the same amount of time as it takes burn to deal 3000 damage, warriors will gain about 3000 health from HS + AH. In other words, perma burning alone will not move a warrior’s health bar at all, but a 3000 damage direct attack will move it down 3000. That’s what people mean when they talk about regen negatively affecting condi builds. If a warrior is almost dead, with 3000 health left, which attack do you want to use?

In what world is condition damage still attrition damage? Please tell me because I would love to play GW2 there.

In my world condition builds have an unhealthy amount of burst potential.

EFWinters.5421:

In what world is condition damage still attrition damage? Please tell me because I would love to play GW2 there.

In my world condition builds have an unhealthy amount of burst potential.

Yeah, condis were definitely attritional at the start of the game, but with the proliferation of burn + bleed procs, condis have become very, very bursty.

I don’t understand how you can claim condis are attritional when dhuumfire necs, bomb/nade engis, spirit rangers, and s/s wars all have equivalent or faster TTK than glass power specs.

Think about it, what power specs do you see anymore? Just wars right? The occasional perma-evade thief? They’re the only ones with enough baked-in sustain to dedicate all or most of their stats to damage in order to keep up with condi specs. Condi specs can match or exceed power specs in TTK and they have much, much more sustain.

Errant Venture.9371:

I don’t understand how you can claim condis are attritional when dhuumfire necs, bomb/nade engis, spirit rangers, and s/s wars all have equivalent or faster TTK than glass power specs.

Think about it, what power specs do you see anymore? Just wars right? The occasional perma-evade thief? They’re the only ones with enough baked-in sustain to dedicate all or most of their stats to damage in order to keep up with condi specs. Condi specs can match or exceed power specs in TTK and they have much, much more sustain.

What is the TTK of a glass cannon spec, in your opinion? I think you might be surprised that some are faster than you thought.

I see a lot of different power builds, but that’s just anecdotal evidence. I’ll take your word for it.

Errant Venture.9371:

Terrahero.9358:

I already need Precision in my condition build to proc more conditions. So what you are trying to do is already a fact.

True but you’re still able to invest in 1 defensive stat (which direct damage classes aren’t able to do without sacrificing a lot of DPS) and only about half of condi specs depend on crit procs.

Really? Since when?

My abilities also have a direct-damage component. Ignoring power entirely will hurt my damage aswell. And, on top of this, i also need condition duration.

People are assuming that condition damage alone leads to builds that are as powerfull as full zerker builds. Which is just flat out not true.
The same way people assume only full zerker builds can deal good direct-damage, which is also false.