Guild Wars 2

Hello, everyone! Sikari here with another discussion on game improvements. I’ve had this thought almost since I began playing GW2 but more than ever, I feel like it may be the best direction for the game. I’ll highlight the basic idea and then give my list of pros and cons, so people see why exactly I suggest this change. Please feel free to add your comments and criticisms, but keep the thread civil!

Two Type of Conditions:
In guild wars 1 there was a similar system to what I want to suggest, though it was handled differently and generally had a different purpose. In GW1 there were different types of debuffs (conditions and hexes) which were removed through different means. I think this idea of a condition type split could vastly improve many aspects of GW2 by adopting a “Condition” and “Impairment” condition type split. As such, conditions would fall into the following categories:

Condition:
Bleeding
Burning
Confusion
Poison * (A partucularly unique condition that has an impairment effect.)
Torment

Impairment:
Blind
Chill
Cripple
Fear
Immobilized
Slow
Vulnerability
Weakness

Change Purpose:
This change is being suggested for multiple reasons. The first reason is to enable developers to handle incoming condition damage and removal more easily. Condition (damage) removal would become more streamlined and easier to calculate. For players, this means smart use of removals (which would likely be reduced in net) would have more impact and less risk of being blocked by (seemingly) random effects such as a short duration cripple or vulnerability found on many common attacks. This also increases how noticeable a strong anti-condition play was as the impact of ability usage is easier to gauge and watch (for streaming/viewer purposes).

The next reason is to empower (though, this could also mean a possible nerf to Chill and Weakness) “Impairments” that are intended to be the offensive equivalent to boons by reducing how often they are cleared compared to now, which has become noticeable as condition clear hit a power creep to combat the growing condition spam in the game. As it stands, in most cases, condition duration is a pointless stat because condition removal has had to become so powerful in order to ensure offensive conditions are at least removed at some points.

A less obvious, but in my opinion, very important role that this change plays is allowing more diversification in skills. This allows developers to create more unique skills by splitting up how removal is handled. For example, a skill that once removed 3 conditions may remove 2 conditions or 1 condition and an impairment, and so on. This allows traits to be created that create interesting decisions between removing (personally) or supporting allies in removing damage versus allowing them to be more effective fighters by removing impairments.

The overall goal is to put more play and build power into the hands of the player by allowing skills to more accurately do what they are intended to do, whether it is avoiding damage or shrugging off impairments to remain effective fighters. In another sense, this is another step to move away from the “one build does all” to also add an additional consideration to a bunker or support build.

Handling the change:
While condition application has admittedly grown vastly out of hand, condition removal has, too, as a necessary evil. Many skills would need to be reworked to chose either impairment removal or condition removal, ideally with a healthy mix of both to chose from for each class, with some classes having stronger preferences for flavor.

Some examples would be:
Plague Signet – Transfers up to 1 condition and 1 impairment from nearby allies to the Necromancer every 3 seconds. Use: Transfer 2 conditions and 2 impairments to the enemy.

Empathetic bond: Your pet takes 2 conditions from the ranger every 8 seconds.

Brawler’s Recovery: Removes one impairment when swapping weapons.

And so on.
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Considerations: What I consider a pro and a con may differ to other people, but these are my thoughts on adopting a two-type condition system.
Pros:
- Skills more defined and reactive for specific uses.
- Gives more options for building toward specific roles.
- Allows impairments to have more impact, more similar to boons without being constantly washed off due to high removal to combat damage conditions.
- Game play is more understandable to watch, and a strong play is more noticeable.
- Breaks up some condition defense to be less all-encompassing (a major part of the high bunker DPS).
- Weakens the impact of Condition damage by making it less hap-hazard to remove, especially in multi-man fights.
- Lessens the impact of condition-bias, favoring classes that can handle many conditions over classes that focus on only a few.

Cons:
- In one sense, more complex, needing to know what skills are used for what types of conditions.
-In another sense, dampens the “skill” factor (though, I use this lightly because of the nature of today’s spam) of condition coverage.
- Risk that the condition and impairment removal changes are not handled correctly, leaving removal lopsided and untested by developers.
- Risk some people just simply may prefer the one-size-fits-all model for condition removal.

Let me know what you think on this topic, I’m really interested in hearing what other major PVPers think about the pros and cons of this type of removal model, as opposed to how it is now.

Note: Conditions and Impairments would need to be grouped separately, possibly separated by an empty space on the bar for easier tracking.

Im not apposed to this. Partly because for me soft cc’s such as immob and chill and far more deadly to my on my character than bleeds and burning usually. This change (atleast from how I am reading it) means that what forms of clear a class has available would affect how they play.

For example Druid atm has two primary forms of condi clear. Druidic Clarity and the Seeds from glyph use and CA #2.

With this change Druidic Clarity could be “Remove all Impairments on your character” to go in line with its nature as a stun break yet it wouldn’t save the druid if he got loaded with condis. Meanwhile the seeds would only affect conditions. Seperating the two forms of condi clear can go a long way towards redirecting how the class is played on a mechanical level.

This change could also affect runes like Runes of the Soldier/Trooper. Causing it to affect Impairments allowing more reliable freedom of movement. (You dont have to worry about it cleansing that 1 stack of bleed instead of the 9 seconds of weakness)

I would be fine with this. It would mean that as a person makes a condition resistant build. They aren’t necessarily immune to lockdown. This COULD allow us to bring back some of the old bunker builds (Builds that are very resistant to damage but with this change can be locked down). And even some of the bruiser builds that have fallen out of the meta (Builds with a resistance to impairment but can be overloaded if they aren’t careful)

Of course thats a what if as far as what I am saying goes. But I agree with the base concept though it definitely seems like it would be alot of work to re balance certain runes and traits.

Editing rather than posting again: One issue I can see with this is in WvW. Hammer trains are very reliant on hte ability to clear movement impairing conditions. Anet would have to be EXTREMELY careful not to redirect too many abilities towards dealing only with conditions. Frontline classes like guardians would NEED to retain the ability to deal with both types of conditions at the same time. So the potential to gain the same level of coverage they have now is pretty necessary or a chill field becomes more dangerous than a meteor shower or well bomb.

They should have separate removal for damage dealing conditions.

Zelulose.8695:

They should have separate removal for damage dealing conditions.

Long story short, this is the idea. If anyone needs a TL;DR, this would be it.

Yeah this is a good way to go.

There ought to be a distinction between damage dealing conditions and debuffs, both in application and cleansing.

Splitting up control conditions and DoTs is something I’ve been a huge fan of for a long time. This allows to drop the need for frequent condition cleanses in favour of good accessibility to movement impairing/control ones, but far lesser access to DoT removals.

Maybe if they saw this thread sooner they wouldn’t have had to remove merc amulet lol.

Zelulose.8695:

Maybe if they saw this thread sooner they wouldn’t have had to remove merc amulet lol.

It’s the type of thing that could be revisited and readded later, though. My biggest concern with this is simply the competence level required to do a transition like this and make it work. I do feel this is a very important change that they should work toward, which is the only reason I bring it up. I usually tend to shy away from suggesting very large changes because it’s not likely to happen, but there are so many issues that could be fixed by adopting this method, and in the process could be a great opportunity to dial back some power creep.

+1 I like it!

/15chars

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

phokus.8934:

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

Then conditions would be useless in the game. Look at warrior with the resistance changes if they had more They would be extremely hard to kill.

ok good idea to split the two types of condis , some skills already have this.

aka lighting reflexes Removes immobilise only unless traited to remove 2x extra which means it will remove atleast 1 damaging condition if there is more than 3 impairment condis on the ranger.

2nd the Druids Clairty removes all condis because it is hard linked to Non-condi clearing trait lines as Beastmastery+marksman or skirmishing are required to help keep damage up , this means no other forms of decent condi clear.

3. the glyphs on the seeds of life have a 1.25ish second delay before the seed pops (its also Location locked to where the glyph was cast so its not all that Reliable condi removal) its better for support if used with LB>projectiles into the light field but that doesn’t clear condis on the ranger so Druids Clairty is required to remove all condis.

4. a rangers near instant condi clears are all on medium to high cooldowns and locked to Wilderness knowledge which takes choices away from the druid meaning it is forced to go full condi or power Remorsless druid and then give up 1-2 slots for Survival skills/glyphs only in this one build type where wilderness is taken the druid will have more than enough condi clear options to OPT out of using Druidic clairity for daze on staff swap ect , this is the reason why Druidic clairity works the way it does or else every ranger/druid would be locked to using glyphs and wilderness knowledge meaning all the other traits would be NoN- viable.

now back to the two types of condis .

1. impairment we already have things that remove impairing condis through traits duration reduction or instant removal through traits or runes , simply put its yin and yan these types of condis are there only for the purpose of Increasing the chances of landing hits that apply condis or direct damage.

and such traits / skills should be taken to help prevent that in turn means taking less applications of condi damage . direct damage.

2nd.
the direct application condis , burns ect
these condi applications are tied to weapons and or melee or ranged choices dependant on the trait choices or the weapon or even on Crits to cause chain bleedings things like this are tied to my first point if a target can’t be hit or easly hit in rapid succession it lowers the amount of damage taken which can then be recovered by a decent use of a support skill or for example Engi using movement to regain health while avoiding damage , then if you get hit by a chunk of condis due to a impairment effect hurting your mobility thats when a condi clear is required all part of condi clear management.

skills could be more defined like Lighting reflexes to remove x amount of impairing condis which i do see some other classes needing these effects outside of traits.

but due to some classes having teleports these movement effects have little effect to no effect but greater effect on those that do not and those classes that do not , i believe should have skills that remove impairing conditions things like Bulls charge (removing Cripple+immobilise) a few more of these types of skills on those classes would go a long way.

(but for a special note warriors did you know Stomp , yes stomp Removes / Destorys roots in 1 AoE hit and since it knocks back it counters any addition roots being applied as the User is interrupted)

i some what agree with what the op is trying to do making things more clear cut so to speak , but all thats required is more skills are defined like lighting reflexes and introduce traits that remove Certain traits like Burn/poison on other classes .

rangers have Evasive purtiy removing cripple/blind/poison so we have a way to Garrentee we never have more than a few condis on at a time , if using this trait in combination with Wilderness knowledge through using a dodge>into LR it can remove immobilse/cripple/blind/poison + 2 additional condis which are most likely going to be the damaging condis, this is more than enough to start Recovering.

its skill like these which are needed to help players make choice if they want to be Resistant to certain condis but not all and i know other classes lack these type of skills/traits.

Zelulose.8695:

phokus.8934:

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

Then conditions would be useless in the game. Look at warrior with the resistance changes if they had more They would be extremely hard to kill.

Warrior is an outlier but resistance would not make conditions useless as the duration is low today and gives a much needed boost against condi spam weapon 1.

phokus.8934:

Zelulose.8695:

phokus.8934:

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

Then conditions would be useless in the game. Look at warrior with the resistance changes if they had more They would be extremely hard to kill.

Warrior is an outlier but resistance would not make conditions useless as the duration is low today and gives a much needed boost against condi spam weapon 1.

unless that same 1 spam is a corrupt XD

phokus.8934:

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

That would not fix the issue of how the game plays, it would be an easy fix bandaid at pushing conditions out of viability, and would likely end up very similar to diamond skin. Resistance, as it is, is a very poorly designed Boon designed to hard counter. It has its uses in moderation, but like Quickness (should have been), it should not be easily stackable.

This solution fixes many issues at once without trying to give the finger to conditions, but rather, making their play and counter play more defined, controllable and easy to follow. This should lead to better and more fun gameplay without masking the problem out of existence.

ronpierce.2760:

phokus.8934:

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

That would not fix the issue of how the game plays, it would be an easy fix bandaid at pushing conditions out of viability, and would likely end up very similar to diamond skin. Resistance, as it is, is a very poorly designed Boon designed to hard counter. It has its uses in moderation, but like Quickness (should have been), it should not be easily stackable.

This solution fixes many issues at once without trying to give the finger to conditions, but rather, making their play and counter play more defined, controllable and easy to follow. This should lead to better and more fun gameplay without masking the problem out of existence.

I’m not quite seeing how adding more access to Resistance would be a band aid. What you’re proposing is a completely huge overhaul that just won’t happen so let’s be realistic here for just a minute.

Condition cleansing priority would be a start followed by access to Resistance but in limited duration.

phokus.8934:

ronpierce.2760:

phokus.8934:

I’d rather there be more access to Resistance.

That would not fix the issue of how the game plays, it would be an easy fix bandaid at pushing conditions out of viability, and would likely end up very similar to diamond skin. Resistance, as it is, is a very poorly designed Boon designed to hard counter. It has its uses in moderation, but like Quickness (should have been), it should not be easily stackable.

This solution fixes many issues at once without trying to give the finger to conditions, but rather, making their play and counter play more defined, controllable and easy to follow. This should lead to better and more fun gameplay without masking the problem out of existence.

I’m not quite seeing how adding more access to Resistance would be a band aid. What you’re proposing is a completely huge overhaul that just won’t happen so let’s be realistic here for just a minute.

Condition cleansing priority would be a start followed by access to Resistance but in limited duration.

I’m not debating which is easier. I realize adding more resistance is the easy way to go, hence bandaid. It’s a quick and efficient “fix”. My suggestion is, overall, better for the health of the game for the reasons listed in the OP, giving more impactful choices and allowing clearing to work in a more intuitive way. This also benefits the e-sports crowd, making impactful decisions more noticeable. Resistance is designed a lot like Diamond Skin. It’s designed as a short hard counter, which is why there is so little access. That said, triggering a boon that just makes you immune is hardly interesting game play and only serves to push conditions out of play, rather than making them more interesting to play against. Resistance is by far not an interesting mechanic.

I’m opposed to this. I hate immobilize more than any other condition (hmmm, except for maybe confusion). It’s already always the last condition to be removed during cleansing (can give multiple actual examples of this) and making it even harder to remove would give me a much worse experience.

I think a better solution, if any is even needed, would be to create a somewhat arbitrary priority algorithm for condition removal that factors in: # of stacks, duration of the condition and the actual condition effect. While difficult to design, I’d be willing to wager that most players would be pleased by it and in MOST cases it wouldn’t really hurt condi builds too much (except for builds that rely on 1 or 2 conditions).

Arcaedus.7290:

I’m opposed to this. I hate immobilize more than any other condition (hmmm, except for maybe confusion). It’s already always the last condition to be removed during cleansing (can give multiple actual examples of this) and making it even harder to remove would give me a much worse experience.

I think a better solution, if any is even needed, would be to create a somewhat arbitrary priority algorithm for condition removal that factors in: # of stacks, duration of the condition and the actual condition effect. While difficult to design, I’d be willing to wager that most players would be pleased by it and in MOST cases it wouldn’t really hurt condi builds too much (except for builds that rely on 1 or 2 conditions).

This would not make it harder to remove. If anything, it removes 5 condition types from possibly covering Immoblize, so long as you run impairment removal skills. Separating them like this allows you to make more impactful decisions on removing damage or, just like Thai scenario, impairments more quickly and reliably. Conditions are removed on a LIFO system, so if you are quick on the draw, your impairment removal should remove that immobilize very easily, and certain skills like Pin Down that also apply a bleed would no longer prevent that removal.

How Conditions should have been handled:
Conditions: Damage, Status, and Impair

Damage style Conditions do the obvious thing, they cause physical damage over time.

Status style Conditions do a not so obvious thing in Gw2 as they would not do physical damage but they do stat damage. Anyone who’s played D&D at any given would understand this.

Impair Conditions do just that, they prevent or impair something from happening, Movement, or skill use, or landing hits on targets.

Damage: Bleeding, Burning, Poison, Confusion——>Torment
These conditions do damage over time HOWEVER, I think torment should result as an effect/condition of having all four of these on your character.
Torment then adds in damage to move. Torment should be a “reward” for good condition play. And if one of these is lost then the torment disappears.

Status: Every stat should be able to be affected. This can greatly help marginalize characters who have skills that do too much physical damage. Imagine taking damage to your power even below your base stats. Potentially, or for the players that try to heal their way through things. Taking damage to healing power or Vitality (<—There’s more play here than you think) Imagine a class that has a skill that weakens armor or Toughness. These don’t damage your character BUT will be determining factors for how your opponents try to defeat you. Imagine taking condition damage….to….condition damage. I feel this is where the slight majority of condition damage should take place and it’s primary source. In non damaging conditions.

Impar: First and foremost Get rid of blindness. It’s useless continuing, Impairing conditions should do just that impair something from happening. Which is pretty limited to skill use, or movement. ANY SKILL THAT CAUSES IMPAIRMENT SHOULD NOT FREELY DO PHYSICAL DAMAGE. Because of this crap game engine we have that should be the trade off.

Condition styles of classes should operate across all three bands of conditions in this sense: Damage, Status, and impairment and not just….damage.

Extra opinion

Conditions now, poor design. Some people may argue calling it poor is wrong and to them I say: Anet is going to either admit they messed up and change or deny everything and get left behind. And it’s not so much as they are wrong as there are infinitely better ways to implement these things and yet they would rather try to make this game something it is not. This was acceptable for the early days of Gw2 but…people and players left and right make many many better suggestions than the game has itself. Yet here we have another expansion…on top of a clearly not well thought out game.

I wanted Gw2 to be that diamond in the rough but it’s just not. I’m not nearly as upset if I tell myself it’s just a concept game cause that’s what it really act’s more like. There’s a lot of concepts in Gw2 that are simply broken and unfinished and poorly implemented. Why they keep trying to make these things work when they clearly don’t is beyond me.

I am very much on OP’s side, and this is actually something I have been asking for some time too.

I actually went a step further in my idea and simply remove condi (damage) cleanse altogether. There is already counter to damage or condi damage: block/evade/blind/aegis, etc… By removing the ability to cleanse it, it makes it easier to balance conditions. Namely, a part of the damage coefficient is changed to a condition, all other balance things remain identical.

By having this done, you can use very simple maths to decide the optimal ratio of power vs condi of hybrid skills, so that they all benefit from amulets in a balanced way (i.e. no advantage of relying on less stats for condition damage, simply because a full damage also requires power damage). I actually already made this calculation not too long ago.

Also, the future condition damage can be grayed out on your life bar as some have suggested. This will also ensure that people immediately link the skill they received with the damage it produces, and will help them learn which skill to avoid (making condition damage less frustrating).

Then some of you may wonder “what is the point of having DoT instead of simple damage if they essentially behave the same” and my answer is: they don’t behave the same. Condition damage ignores armor, and can thus be balanced to be superior for high armor targets while power is superior for low armor. This all makes perfect sense since power damage is also faster, and can thus be used to quickly down squishy targets while condi is used to demolish tanks. Also, this creates different type of damage which can be mitigated by different techniques. For example one can change resistance to now mitigate the condition damage (let’s say -50% condition damage or -50% incoming condition duration) and you will now have different classes/builds able to defend against condi-enemies or against power enemies.

Regardless of this additional suggestion, I am 100% behind OP (except that I put poison in debuffs and not conditions). Debuff and boons should get the same role in the game. They actually mirror themselves very much (aegis/blind, vulnerability/might, protection/weakness, regeneration/poison etc…). But because of the ridiculous amount of cleanse we have compare to the amount of boon rip, boons are ruling supreme in gw2.

I always thought guardian and necromancer were opposite class by design, guardian supporting through boons and condi cleanse, while necromancer supports through debuffs and boon rips. Yet the unbalance between debuffs and boons has made guardian an effective support class while necro isn’t nearly as much. This change is the step needed to fix that and add a lot of depth in the build diversity and roles of the game.