Guild Wars 2

Okay, let me get this straight:
As long as nobody writes a single word in team chat before the match starts and nobody writes a single word during the entire match, people simply have no right to complain about unfair matchups, if their opponent happens to communicate.
If you don’t attempt to communicate before a match, but just blindly scramble to the next free spot, once the match starts, you can’t complain about teams, which actually do communicate, regardless of whether some planner in the opponents team happens to be part of a premade and just deliver a rough strategy draft to his pug team mates. Fact is, the opponent did communicate, while you made no attempt to do so.

Yes, if the opponent is premade, they can theoretically be in VOIP, but even that much isn’t a given. You also can’t discern whether or not everyone is actually part of a premade team or whether they just cooperate well. The only thing that matters is, that the opponent did communicate, while you didn’t.
Only when you used the communication methods available to you to their fullest, but failed, because the opponents had superior communication methods outside the game, then you can start complaining.

I don’t really care about winning, which is why I hardly ever initiate a strategy discussion before the game. But if you take losses so badly, how about you start actually caring before the game starts and not only after you got your face kicked in? Everyone wants a good game, so if you ask, they will usually answer. You have about a minute to discuss:
-what builds everyone is running
-any utility skills required to beat whatever meta the opponent is likely to run
-long term strategy
-your initial tactics

But everything, that’s usually in the chat is, if at all, a “hello” and then everyone waits for the match to start… Then people look at where everyone else is going to figure out, what could have been planned before the match started and then everyone starts kittening about the opponent being a 4 or 5 man stack.
I’ve been accused of being part of a big stack twice… Or well, my team was accused of being a big stack. Both times, I was part of a 2 man group… So the method to discover stacks doesn’t seem very accurate.

so you saying that within 1 minute a team of random people who maybe agree or disagree on strategy will manage by typing on chat to become equal with a premade team, who have already before they enter the match discuss about strategy, decided what build/profession their team will have and probably practice and used to play as a team. I doubt that . Yes communication makes thinks better but wont give you a fair game vs an organized premade most of the times

So tell me: How many of the perceived big stacks are really big stacks?
I’ve witnessed this many times: Two players coordinate their attacks well and the rest of the team does some smart rotations and everyone instantly assumes, the whole team is one stack.
The more likely scenario: The players coordinating their attacks are a 2 man team and the rest of the team simply knows what to do. I mean, PvP is no rocket science. if you have a basic understanding of what your team is running and what they are up to, you can just play it by the book and do the right thing.

Dude, if you think PvP is not difficult or “not rocket-science” then clearly you really have no idea what true competitive PvP is like.
“Play it by the book”? What do you think PvP is, PvE against humans? Yes, I know a lot of pseudo-PvPers think like you do, and like you, they are wrong.

Seriously, if you don’t know what competition is, please refrain from posting on PvP forums.

The fact is, on most games, including ANET’s own GW1, random players do NOT have to face organized teams. It’s not an even fight, it’s not balanced.
There’s no silly pseudo-matchmaking algorithm that’s ever going to balance it out.

Go check other games, better PvP games. Heck, go check ANET’s GW1, which was without doubt a vastly better PvP game and there was no random PUGs vs organized teams.
And there wasn’t this nonsense that Evan says about 4+1 vs 4+1 or 3+1+1 vs 3+1+1.
No. It a degree of the same lack of true understanding about PvP but it is a lack of understanding nonetheless.

That our PvP Dev that says “why shouldn’t we allow 4+1 vs 4+1” is appalling and shows that he has very little grasp about competition and teams.
If he had said “I am following orders” I could sympathize and understand, but not this way, no.

Dude, if you think PvP is not difficult or “not rocket-science” then clearly you really have no idea what true competitive PvP is like.
“Play it by the book”? What do you think PvP is, PvE against humans? Yes, I know a lot of pseudo-PvPers think like you do, and like you, they are wrong.

Seriously, if you don’t know what competition is, please refrain from posting on PvP forums.

The fact is, on most games, including ANET’s own GW1, random players do NOT have to face organized teams. It’s not an even fight, it’s not balanced.
There’s no silly pseudo-matchmaking algorithm that’s ever going to balance it out.

Go check other games, better PvP games. Heck, go check ANET’s GW1, which was without doubt a vastly better PvP game and there was no random PUGs vs organized teams.
And there wasn’t this nonsense that Evan says about 4+1 vs 4+1 or 3+1+1 vs 3+1+1.
No. It’s degrees of the same lack of true understand about PvP but it is a lack of understanding nonetheless.

That our PvP Dev that says “why shouldn’t we allow 4+1 vs 4+1” is appalling and shows that he has very little grasp about competition and teams.
If he had said “I am following orders” I could sympathize and understand and even support him. But not this way.

I second this post, it only happened once to me today but I noticed it as it was not fun or productive. I won’t lose sleep over it though

Bio Flame.4276:

Dude, if you think PvP is not difficult or “not rocket-science” then clearly you really have no idea what true competitive PvP is like.
“Play it by the book”? What do you think PvP is, PvE against humans? Yes, I know a lot of pseudo-PvPers think like you do, and like you, they are wrong.

Seriously, if you don’t know what competition is, please refrain from posting on PvP forums.

The fact is, on most games, including ANET’s own GW1, random players do NOT have to face organized teams. It’s not an even fight, it’s not balanced.
There’s no silly pseudo-matchmaking algorithm that’s ever going to balance it out.

Go check other games, better PvP games. Heck, go check ANET’s GW1, which was without doubt a vastly better PvP game and there was no random PUGs vs organized teams.
And there wasn’t this nonsense that Evan says about 4+1 vs 4+1 or 3+1+1 vs 3+1+1.
No. It a degree of the same lack of true understanding about PvP but it is a lack of understanding nonetheless.

That our PvP Dev that says “why shouldn’t we allow 4+1 vs 4+1” is appalling and shows that he has very little grasp about competition and teams.
If he had said “I am following orders” I could sympathize and understand, but not this way, no.

Okay. How about you make a deal with arena.net?
You bring them a million new pvp players and they will gladly deliver you the bestest matchmaking algorithm ever.
A matchmaking algorithm is limited by the amount of players, who want to play. How else to match a group of 4 players than 4+1v4+1?
Match them 4+1v5?
4+1v1+1+1+1+1?
The most fair thing to do is still find another 4+1 group and hope it pans out. There isn’t enough 4 man groups out there to hand-pick a 4 man group and find the perfect player, so everyone is on the same level. Of course, they can improve the algorithm… By tripling the queue times. There just isn’t enough players out there and the matchmaking algorithm has to make do with what is given to it.

Guild Wars 2 goes by the motto “go play when you like, how you like” or something along those lines. This includes the ability to queue for pvp matches with any number of friends.

And now don’t say something like “if the matchmaking algorithm was better, there surely would be more players.”
If the matchmaking algorithm was better, you wouldn’t notice any difference, because the player pool is still too narrow to make meaningful matchups.

Don’t you read? Did you even bother to check other games? Go read and get some information for yourself?

You don’t need a silly algorithm that will never be able to do balanced, fair and fun matches between PUGs and Teams. That’s never going to happen.
You match teams against teams (5vs5) and PUGs vs PUGs.
Nothing else.
There’s no 4+1 or 3+1+1 nonsense. Either a full team of 5vs5 or full PUGs vs PUGs.

There aren’t enough players? Well, I can promise you that if ANET keeps this way, there will never be enough PvP players. Never.
Why? Because randoms vs premades/duos/trios is just plain not balanced, not fair and not fun.
New players join, play and won’t stay. PvPers will leave because it’s also not competitive to fight PUGs.

If Evan and Josh really believe there’s potential in sPvP, then they should not allow for PUGs vs Premades or that 4+1 vs 4+1 nonsense.
If they don’t believe in PvP’s future, then keep the direction and onwards towards the disaster…

Bio Flame.4276:

Don’t you read? Did you even bother to check other games? Go read and get some information for yourself?

You don’t need a silly algorithm that will never be able to do balanced, fair and fun matches between PUGs and Teams. That’s never going to happen.
You match teams against teams (5vs5) and PUGs vs PUGs.
Nothing else.
There’s no 4+1 or 3+1+1 nonsense. Either a full team of 5vs5 or full PUGs vs PUGs.

There aren’t enough players? Well, I can promise you that if ANET keeps this way, there will never be enough PvP players. Never.
Why? Because randoms vs premades/duos/trios is just plain not balanced, not fair and not fun.
New players join, play and won’t stay. PvPers will leave because it’s also not competitive to fight PUGs.

If Evan and Josh really believe there’s potential in sPvP, then they should not allow for PUGs vs Premades or that 4+1 vs 4+1 nonsense.
If they don’t believe in PvP’s future, then keep the direction and onwards towards the disaster…

Well, I do play other games.
In Dota, it’s no problem to have partial teams matched with solo players and Dota requires far more teamwork than gw2 conquest ever will. In fact, people queue solo, in small teams, as full teams(which are always matched against full teams for obvious reasons) and the matchmaker takes care of things. Sometimes, it’s five(5!!!!) solo players vs a triple stack and two solos. Sometimes, it’s two double stacks and a solo against a triple stack and two solos and there are no problems.
But one of the most punishing team games out there surely is bad reference material.

In GW1, there’s no algorithm.
It’s PUGs vs PUGs, Teams vs Teams.

And guess what? GW1 is a far better PvP game. In fact, it’s so much better that calling this game as “PvP” is an insult to GW1.

And most importantly, there’s never going to exist any algorithm that’s going to make PUGs vs Teams a balanced/fair match…because that is not possible.

Exactly what do you define as pugs vs teams? Of course, 1+1+1+1+1 v 5 has all the potential to create imbalanced matchups. Anything else can not really be called pugs vs teams.
Also, what do you define as an even matchup? Regardless of the end result of the game, I regard it as an even matchup, when both teams had the exactly same chance of winning the game.
I told you, 1+1+1+1+1 v 3+1+1 works fine with Dota2 matchmaking. And I’m fairly certain, if GW2 PvP had a larger player base, it’d also be easy to create a matchmaking system capable of creating “balanced” 1+1+1+1+1 v 3 +1+1 matchups.
The problem at hand is, that most GW2 PvP matches aren’t as close as Dota2 matches, where there is almost always a very realistic chance of turning the game around.

With the conquest formula, even small differences in the daily performance of otherwise equally skilled players can cause a huge point difference.
Evenly matched games can still end with large point differences just because momentum is such a deciding factor in sPvP, which will then further the perception of an unfair matchup, when in fact both teams had the same chance of winning at the start of the game.
Not every game, where one side wins by more than 150 points was horribly one sided and not every match, which ends 499 to 500 was totally even. The end result of a single game doesn’t say anything about whether a matchup was balanced.

Dude, if you think 3+1+1 offers balanced games, then go away and learn competition, plz.
Don’t even try to argue that point, that makes you as bad as our Devs. Really, it’s embarassing.

Go check GW1…

PS – another “balanced” match of 4+1 vs PUGs. Really fun that one was. One more for the fantastic matchmaking system…

Bio Flame. You keep referring to GW1…over..and over. If it was a compelling argument you would have only needed to do it ONCE. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that if the old system would work in the current game they wouldn’t have done it? Do you honestly think that? Because if so then its definitely a case of you believing what you want to believe.

Someone somewhere has considered what your saying. They have sat down and LOOKED at whether or not the old system would be better than what they have now. Theyv compared the pros and cons. And came to the conclusion that it WOULDN’T have worked..

You have made your opinion on that clear. But there isn’t a need to keep pointing at the same thing over and over past the point that its relevant.

As for seperating the ques. I was primarily a solo quer. What I saw more than anything was a few builds that excelled in these unorganized matches destroying entire matches over and over. Often it only took one of them to annihilate a map. Like having a runaway warrior on spirit watch.

I HATED solo que. And would often que solo into the team ques. Wait 2 or 3 times as long for a match. And enjoy myself far more there.

Now however I can actually get the quality of a team que match (less BS builds that are difficult to counter without SOMEONE on your group working together. Often I see a group of 2 or 3 in my games on my team that annihilate anyone silly enough to run those.) With around the same que time as the old solo que offered. Hell its FASTER most of the time.

I MUCH prefer this than to the solo que aids builds of the past. Not to mention how kitten horrible the community in solo que was.

Your post is only valid if they haven’t made a mistake. Which they probably did.
It’s easy to realize that, surely you must know it by now.

This pseudo-matchmaking system will never be adequate for competitive PvP; hence keeping it will just bury any chances for serious PvPing.
There’s no arguments here, it’s a fact and it’s also the player’s perceptions.

Nobody enjoys facing premades with pugs, nobody enjoys facing 4+1 with PUGs, nobody enjoys facing 3+2 / 3+1+1 with PUGs, etc… I think you get my point.
Having a Dev stating that it’s ok to face 4+1 is….mind boggling. It’s…against everying true competitive PvP is and should be.
And ANET said they want to turn sPvP into esp0rtz, not me. Lol.
This matchmaking system does NOT go hand in hand with that desire of esp0rtz.

Now, the reasons for mentioning GW1 are plenty, and, sincerly, it’s quite obvious. But I’ll explain it, for those who don’t know what GW1 is, and who made it:

1- It’s ANET’s own game.

2- It’s ANET’s first game

3- Its name attracted lots of people, due to the (extremely good) PvP reputation it got over the years.

4-GW1 is clearly a superior PvP game, hands down. It’s just on another level.

5-GW1 did not use this travesti of matchmaking. Simplifying, you either played Random Arenas (pugs vs pugs), or Team Arenas (4vs4 premade teams), or HoH and GvG (8vs8 premade teams). I am over-simplifying but you get my point.

Now, since GW1 is ANET’s game, since it is a superior PvP game in every way and since it doesn’t use this travesti of matchmaking, it’s important to point out to our (current) PvP Devs that they have lessons to learn, inside the company, that they are ignoring.
(or are being forced to ignore, by their superiors?).

So yeah, it does make sense to talk about GW1. I could talk about other games, sports, etc, but talking about their own previous game, in which this one was built upon, does make a lot of sense.
Should I talk about DOTA, CS, etc…or talk about their own in-house/company example, which is in every shape and form a vastly superior PvP game?
(but not superior PvE game, I’ll grant that).

In summary, the question is: why don’t our current PvP Devs try to learn from the good things of their companies much better PvP game?
What’s going on that I am missing?

You keep saying nobody. Acting like your speaking for everyone. Ill flat out say your not. I enjoy fighting in matches that are rigged against me. But unlike you im not gonna claim I speak for everyone and use that as a method of showing how right I am. Instead im gonna call you on that exaggeration right here.

First. It being ANET’s own game has no purpose here. There different games running on different models. With a different set of priorities.

Second. Again. That has nothing to do with this.

Third. It’s name attracted alot of attention not just because of its reputation but also because it was one of the ONLY games that gave a comparable experience. It came out much earlier in the MMO era. In my eyes it was “The game that was different from WoW” Because of how the game was focused. I was able to play them both without feeling like I was playing hte same game. I could play the entirety of the game and feel like it was it had almost NO similarities with other games.

Thats different now though. Because there is a much larger pool of mmos.

GW1 Being a superior pvp game also has no purpose here. For the simple fact that the game had vastly different priorities. GW1 was primarily a pvp game. Just as WoW at the time was Primarily a PvE game. Lets be honest here. It had to be better than its competition in order to survive. Because despite its incredible story. The WoW PvE experience was often more complete and immersive.

GW2 has a completely different set of priorities now. Its not being choked by the other games so it can actually progress the nature of pve (which it has been doing and I hope will continue to). It also has WvW a completely different game type. (which im glad is finally getting content) Which means that its no longer semi clinging to PvP to stay alive. Not only that. It has more responsibilities in more places. And it also means that its players arn’t all crammed into PvP and PvE. But instead are fairly spread out.

The old system needed the number of players it had to function. And more importantly it needed that density. It required having all of its players crammed into a few specific locations.

GW2 Instead spreads people out. Give people more room to grow and theyl naturally expand.

So NO. No I DON’T get your point. Because your point is flawed as it comes form a PvP only mentality. Without understanding of the larger picture (im talking in the dispersion of players throughout the game and its natural effects of player density in TPvP).

Edit: Removed some obnoxious capped words.

The past 4 or 5 games I’ve been against premades and didn’t appear to have a team on my side. Each time I have been focused down by a burst team making use of portal plays they must have communicated over TS. I hope you can imagine how frustrating it is to be so much at the mercy of matchmaking. All I want is to play fair games at a high level. Without that, you will lose me to mobas that offer more chances to advance, and accurate representations of skill.

Drakhar.1389:

The past 4 or 5 games I’ve been against premades and didn’t appear to have a team on my side. Each time I have been focused down by a burst team making use of portal plays they must have communicated over TS. I hope you can imagine how frustrating it is to be so much at the mercy of matchmaking. All I want is to play fair games at a high level. Without that, you will lose me to mobas that offer more chances to advance, and accurate representations of skill.

could have easily been 2 or 3 people on TS also. I find I have more success as a 3 or 4 man group. you are less likely to be matched up with premades, but if you are all in TS and good you can handle them a lot of the time. 3-4 people in TS make games against pug teams without TS mad easy. solo socks, and duo is iffy but if you can have 3 or more people in TS it’s so much better.

comps like warrior, mesmer, engineer

You can right click on names before the match starts and if it shows you the option to “Join Party” then you know they are in a group. Easy way to find out if you are matched against or with a premade.

Hah, from now on, I will party with people in different maps and search on my own, just so people can complain about me being part of a large stack.
:>
Dis gon’ b gud.