Guild Wars 2

Shiyo.3578:

Novuake.2691:

Yeah because the turret build has an extremely low skillcap. All your fighting is a dead boy and a stupid AI. The turret engi has very limited options once the turrets are down. Effectively a offhead chicken, and people do not GET how TERRIBLY useless that is.

So useless that nearly every game has a turret eng, some even having 2.

The spec brings the entire game down as a whole and needs to not be a thing because it’s boring to play and play against.

I see a turret engi in 1/10 games, probably less.

I will repeat, L2P. Improve your MMR.

Novuake.2691:

Shiyo.3578:

Novuake.2691:

Yeah because the turret build has an extremely low skillcap. All your fighting is a dead boy and a stupid AI. The turret engi has very limited options once the turrets are down. Effectively a offhead chicken, and people do not GET how TERRIBLY useless that is.

So useless that nearly every game has a turret eng, some even having 2.

The spec brings the entire game down as a whole and needs to not be a thing because it’s boring to play and play against.

I see a turret engi in 1/10 games, probably less.

I will repeat, L2P. Improve your MMR.

I watch high MMR streamers, they fight a turret eng as much, if not more than me.

Shiyo.3578:

I watch high MMR streamers, they fight a turret eng as much, if not more than me.

Do they QQ as much as you do? EVERY SINGLE day…

There is no point in debating with you. So cheers…

Turrets are far too strong, and promote ridiculous low still gameplay. They either need to have far less health, far less damage/cc, or stay the same but allow players to disable them through CC, blinds, chill etc and allow conditions to damage them.

Atm turrets left strategically on or around a point can pretty much stop a glass build from capping, there is no counter play. On certain points a turret engi can just run around avoiding damage and LoSing while turrets do all the work. Its probably the worst thing in game atm.

Yasha.5963:

Turrets are far too strong, and promote ridiculous low still gameplay. They either need to have far less health, far less damage/cc, or stay the same but allow players to disable them through CC, blinds, chill etc and allow conditions to damage them.

Atm turrets left strategically on or around a point can pretty much stop a glass build from capping, there is no counter play. On certain points a turret engi can just run around avoiding damage and LoSing while turrets do all the work. Its probably the worst thing in game atm.

No counterplay? WOW… Outplayed by an AI to a WHOLE new level.

Here’s the new tweaked title for this thread: Do Not… Not Nerf Turret Engi

Novuake.2691:

Yasha.5963:

Turrets are far too strong, and promote ridiculous low still gameplay. They either need to have far less health, far less damage/cc, or stay the same but allow players to disable them through CC, blinds, chill etc and allow conditions to damage them.

Atm turrets left strategically on or around a point can pretty much stop a glass build from capping, there is no counter play. On certain points a turret engi can just run around avoiding damage and LoSing while turrets do all the work. Its probably the worst thing in game atm.

No counterplay? WOW… Outplayed by an AI to a WHOLE new level.

Can I blind them, chill them, poison them, bait them? Can’t do anything except direct damage to them. There is very little counterplay except to outrange them – which is impossible when taking a node as in my above example.

All the engi does is run around, avoiding damage, LOSing, and healing. Not to mention that the turrets have some of the strongest effects among the AI in GW2. For example it is fairly easy to avoid a ranger’s pet just by moving and the only necro pet with a really powerful ability is the ultimate. All the engi turrets have strong activated abilities and the passives are none too shabby and unerringly hit since they are ranged.

Every other AI/pet has a counter play. The way turrets are at the moment is verging on ridiculous.

Yasha.5963:

Can I blind them, chill them, poison them, bait them? Can’t do anything except direct damage to them. There is very little counterplay except to outrange them – which is impossible when taking a node as in my above example.

All the engi does is run around, avoiding damage, LOSing, and healing. Not to mention that the turrets have some of the strongest effects among the AI in GW2. For example it is fairly easy to avoid a ranger’s pet just by moving and the only necro pet with a really powerful ability is the ultimate. All the engi turrets have strong activated abilities and the passives are none too shabby and unerringly hit since they are ranged.

Every other AI/pet has a counter play. The way turrets are at the moment is verging on ridiculous.

You can LoS them, ignore, Cleave, Knock/Pull engi out.
Or HEAVEN forbid use Stability to get in, burst/knock the engi out, and get out.

Hell with my Dual kit condi I can facetank the turrets and still pressure the engi off point, taking it WITH HIS TURRETS THERE. No power damage required.

I main a turret engineer – have been playing one almost since release.

I do agree that when an engineer gets out of range to a certain point, turrets should auto destruct.

Stark.1350:

I main a turret engineer – have been playing one almost since release.

I do agree that when an engineer gets out of range to a certain point, turrets should auto destruct.

Sure, if picking them up reduces the cooldown by like 75% instead of 25% so that they can be more mobile or fight off point as well. All what you’re asking for will do is make the stereotype of a turret engineer sitting on home all game 10x worse. I know you mean well but that’d give incentive to play worse.

Novuake.2691:

Yasha.5963:

Can I blind them, chill them, poison them, bait them? Can’t do anything except direct damage to them. There is very little counterplay except to outrange them – which is impossible when taking a node as in my above example.

All the engi does is run around, avoiding damage, LOSing, and healing. Not to mention that the turrets have some of the strongest effects among the AI in GW2. For example it is fairly easy to avoid a ranger’s pet just by moving and the only necro pet with a really powerful ability is the ultimate. All the engi turrets have strong activated abilities and the passives are none too shabby and unerringly hit since they are ranged.

Every other AI/pet has a counter play. The way turrets are at the moment is verging on ridiculous.

You can LoS them, ignore, Cleave, Knock/Pull engi out.
Or HEAVEN forbid use Stability to get in, burst/knock the engi out, and get out.

Hell with my Dual kit condi I can facetank the turrets and still pressure the engi off point, taking it WITH HIS TURRETS THERE. No power damage required.

Nothing you say above relates to what I mentioned in my original post. You have just written some generic statement and ended with massaging your kitten.

You cannot line of sight turrets if you are taking a point, you cannot ignore them if taking a point, you cannot cleave them unless the engi has obligingly left them all lined up next to each other, and you cannot attack an engi when they are not there – and even if they are, any with half a brain will just be running around evading your attacks and LOSing you, while the turrets take you down.

Finally, yes, if you have a build that can face tank turrets and you have lots of conditions you can force the engi off point. But that is not what I was talking about.

There are numerous problems with turrets, the one I mentioned was that they are the only pet/AI in the game that a glass class cannot counterplay. It is ridiculous that an engi can leave a point defended by turrets and basically prevent a typical glass roamer from taking it. If a ranger pet was on a point and the ranger did not attack, you just watch it and dodge its very obvious tells, blind it, chill it, cripple it =counter play. Same goes for necro minions.

But with turrets you basically just have to take the damage – it is ranged, comes at you from several directions, often positioned where you have to leave the point to attack it, two of them have extremely long range, are not effected by conditions so you can’t slow their rate of fire or blind them (two key abilities used by glass classes to avoid damage), are strong enough that you can’t just take them out with raw damage before they take the player out= no real counter play. And that is without the actual engi even being there. Its clearly unbalanced.

ronpierce.2760:

Stark.1350:

I main a turret engineer – have been playing one almost since release.

I do agree that when an engineer gets out of range to a certain point, turrets should auto destruct.

Sure, if picking them up reduces the cooldown by like 75% instead of 25% so that they can be more mobile or fight off point as well. All what you’re asking for will do is make the stereotype of a turret engineer sitting on home all game 10x worse. I know you mean well but that’d give incentive to play worse.

Spec shouldn’t be a thing at all and dumbs down the game as a whole. Turret spec should get 0 compensation for any nerfs it receives, I’m all for build diversity but if diversity means abominations of specs like this, no thanks.

I’d like turrets to be extremely tanky by default but deal zero damage, and instead provide passive benefits/utility much like spirits from ranger.

Shiyo.3578:

I’d like turrets to be extremely tanky by default but deal zero damage, and instead provide passive benefits/utility much like spirits from ranger.

Funnily enough they already can be traited to provide might, vigor, swiftness, fury, retaliation, and protection (one grandmaster trait, depends on turret) to everyone in 600m radius at 10 sec intervals.

Yasha.5963:

Shiyo.3578:

I’d like turrets to be extremely tanky by default but deal zero damage, and instead provide passive benefits/utility much like spirits from ranger.

Funnily enough they already can be traited to provide might, vigor, swiftness, fury, retaliation, and protection (one grandmaster trait, depends on turret) to everyone in 600m radius at 10 sec intervals.

Yeah that’s what they should be used for, purely utility/buffs!

All I see are Engi’s that put 10 stacks of condi’s on me. Remove them already.

Make turrets vulnerable to CC and conditions. Bam, problem fixed.

Shiyo.3578:

Yeah that’s what they should be used for, purely utility/buffs!

So a weaker form of banners, being destructible and giving strippable boons. On a class that, unlike warriors, has a single main weapon (and weaker by design, i should add).
Can’t you see what is wrong with this?
What should they buff, the rifle/pistol autoattack? That’s what the engineer ends up using most of the time, in a turret build. Because there is nothing else to use as far as weapons go. That’s why engineers have to rely on offensive utilities for the most part – be it kits or turrets. Something must supply that damage that the main weapon lacks.
And the main weapon can’t be made stronger, anyway – else a kit build would have both a strong main weapon and all the kits’ skills.
Your suggestion would just make turrets redundant and completely useless, being an inferior version of banners.
Albeit, that’s what you are likely aiming for, anyway.

Rednik.3809:

Make turrets vulnerable to CC and conditions. Bam, problem fixed.

If you aim to make them useless, it would indeed fix them.
They already have relatively low hp, especially the ranged ones. Conditions would melt them in seconds.
And they are static. The owners themselves cannot move them,and neither they follow the owner like a normal minion/pet/whatever. So why do you expect other people to be able to move them via CC? People would fear or knock them out of sight and the engineers wouldn’t be able to move them back unless he picked them up, putting them on cooldown, effectively making them unusable.

Turrets being useless is overall better for the game than them being viable.

Manuhell.2759:

If you aim to make them useless, it would indeed fix them.
They already have relatively low hp, especially the ranged ones. Conditions would melt them in seconds.
And they are static. The owners themselves cannot move them,and neither they follow the owner like a normal minion/pet/whatever. So why do you expect other people to be able to move them via CC? People would fear or knock them out of sight and the engineers wouldn’t be able to move them back unless he picked them up, putting them on cooldown, effectively making them unusable.

So you want to say what current situation where turrets are immune to half of game mechanics is ok?

Shiyo.3578:

Turrets being useless is overall better for the game than them being viable.

^

Shiyo.3578:

Turrets being useless is overall better for the game than them being viable.

I am sure you know this from your extensive experience from balancing, playing and managing a PvP game mode.

Rednik.3809:

So you want to say what current situation where turrets are immune to half of game mechanics is ok?

In the current situation it only makes sense for them to be so. To make the changes you propose they would have to be rebalanced completely (and even then, i doubt we’ll see them affected by CC as long as they’re static…and being turrets, i doubt that ever will change).

Manuhell.2759:

People would fear or knock them out of sight and the engineers wouldn’t be able to move them back unless he picked them up, putting them on cooldown, effectively making them unusable.

They can’t move so fear/knock back would disable them in some way without moving them. Blind would prevent them from hitting for the duration, chill and cripple would slow rate of fire, damage conditions just damage them.

Even so they would still be powerful. But at least there would be some counter play for builds/classes that cant just face tank the damage and easily cure conditions. For example maybe you could blind the flamethrower and try and dodge the rocket. It would bring them more in line with other class AI/pets.

I don’t see how adding the weaknesses of other classes AI/pets in addition of their owns would bring them in line. If anything it would make them far weaker, unless they are rebalanced in accord to the changes involved (a sensible increase of their hp, at least, and some tweaks in their fire rate to account for their new weaknesses). Guess what, though, no one ever talks about rebalancing them when they talk about adding all these weaknesses.

Not that i’m surprised by that. As far as i’ve seen, all these proposals are aimed only at making turrets useless.

Manuhell.2759:

Not that i’m surprised by that. As far as i’ve seen, all these proposals are aimed only at making turrets useless.

Turrets being useless is ALWAYS better than them being viable in their current form.

Manuhell.2759:

I don’t see how adding the weaknesses of other classes AI/pets in addition of their owns would bring them in line. If anything it would make them far weaker, unless they are rebalanced in accord to the changes involved (a sensible increase of their hp, at least, and some tweaks in their fire rate to account for their new weaknesses). Guess what, though, no one ever talks about rebalancing them when they talk about adding all these weaknesses.

Not that i’m surprised by that. As far as i’ve seen, all these proposals are aimed only at making turrets useless.

It won’t make them useless, just bring them more in line with other pet/AI. Adding “all these weaknesses” is just allowing them to be affected by game mechanics that every other player/class/pet in the game is subject to.

They don’t need more HP- the thumper already has the health of a raid boss anyway-, they don’t need more damage, cc, or increased rate of fire. People are saying they would like turrets to be subject to the rules of the game that everything else has to abide by if they stay in their current state so that there is actual real counterplay against them. Otherwise, if they remain immune to everything except direct damage please drastically lower their HP, damage, cc etc.

Yasha.5963:

They don’t need more HP- the thumper already has the health of a raid boss anyway-,

lold

The turrets that annoy me the most are rocket and thumper turret.

Rocket turret deals too much damage and the range on that thing is nothing short of ridiculous….

Thumper turret has too much HP considering it can self heal, has permanent protection and can’t be crit or condition spammed. It’s literally about as hard to kill as the treb in Khylo. Maybe even harder.

Nerf Turret engi please. it takes no skill and it’s bullshet, even minions are easier to kill then turrets…

i just had a turret engi eat two full hundred blades + blade trail + whirlwind attack + rush + arcing slice and hes no where close to dead and he rezed his teamate, whattt

Yasha.5963:

It won’t make them useless, just bring them more in line with other pet/AI. Adding “all these weaknesses” is just allowing them to be affected by game mechanics that every other player/class/pet in the game is subject to.

They don’t need more HP- the thumper already has the health of a raid boss anyway-, they don’t need more damage, cc, or increased rate of fire. People are saying they would like turrets to be subject to the rules of the game that everything else has to abide by if they stay in their current state so that there is actual real counterplay against them. Otherwise, if they remain immune to everything except direct damage please drastically lower their HP, damage, cc etc.

Other pets also move, can crit and usually tend to have higher hp and/or better fire rates. Beside being on classes with multiple main weapons or attunements. The rules aren’t the same to start with, and something has to make up for those, like it or not.
In turrets’ case, their resistance to conditions and CC.
You can’t just expect them to have all the weaknesses of the other minions in addition to their owns – and i specified that before as well, but you conveniently avoided that part – and pretend for them not to be rebalanced to make up for it.

And thumper turret is a melee range turret, anyway. Of course it must be tankier than the other turrets, else it would be quickly destroyed from a distance without even being able to counterattack (since, you know, it can’t move).

Again, the aim of these proposals is only to make them useless.

Kagamiku.9731:

Rocket turret deals too much damage and the range on that thing is nothing short of ridiculous….

…and that’s why it has a fire rate of 4s and slightly less than 7500 hp. Beside being a static target. Also, max range is 1250, but it requires a grandmaster trait.Else it is 1000.

Yasha.5963:

Thumper turret has too much HP considering it can self heal,

when traited for

has permanent protection

again, when traited for

and can’t be crit or condition spammed.
It’s literally about as hard to kill as the treb in Khylo. Maybe even harder.

and like the trebuchet it cannot move, thus being just a nice target that can’t counterattack if you deal with it from a distance, or until you come close enough.

Also, you can’t expect for them to be balanced over a fully traited build like the one you’re likely mentioning. Traits are there to make things good, not barely viable. Especially if you pile multiple traits up. They must have a sensible effect.
Cause doing so means the engineer itself will have few to no traits upon himself (or the main weapon). A tradeoff, basically.

holodoc.5748:

I play all eight professions and consider myself to be pretty competent sPvP player (except as a thief, I suck at it big time). Engi is probably my second favorite profession after warrior, which is my main.

Last night I was playing as turret engi in unranked Temple. At one point I was alone at mid and facing a warrior 1 vs 1. Mind you that I main warrior so I know every possible strategy that profession can use. My turrets were all positioned as they were supposed to yet this warrior managed to own me two times in a row. Do you know why? Because he was playing smart. He was not rushing like a fool in a middle of the cap point. Instead he was using Longbow from far away to clean my turrets and hide behind pillars when my turrets began an overcharge attack. When he saw me come closer he knew to use immobilize to prevent me from using KB on him.

That’s the exact moment (one of many actually) when I realized how useless turret engis can be if you face people which know how to play against them. You are solely relying on AI and overcharges which can be easily avoided if you pay attention. Not only that but if you use a rifle there are basically only two useful skills on it (net and KB) which have a long enough CD to be useless in team fights.

That being said, the conquest mode is the only reason why turret engis might feel OP. It literally tells people to do the exact opposite they are supposed to do against turret engis – rush toward the turrets. Once you learn NOT to do that you are pretty much good against any turret engi.

And what if warrior was defending point, is he supposed to just run off and give you the point for however long it takes to kill you?

Rednik.3809:

Make turrets vulnerable to CC and conditions. Bam, problem fixed.

I agree.

the problem here, is that most of the posters here demand a change out of pure selfishness. By that I mean they specifically want them removed or changed, for no other reason then the simple fact that they do not like them. Few if any, offer any reasonable argument to support their demand.

…and that’s why it has a fire rate of 4s and slightly less than 7500 hp. Beside being a static target. Also, max range is 1250, but it requires a grandmaster trait.Else it is 1000.

It deals too much damage even with its rate of fire. That turret combined with the other turrets and the engi’s auto attack damage is just too overwhelming. The rocket turret makes the largest impact as far as damage is concerned, though.

when traited for

Of course. Traiting for turrets is the only thing turret Engi needs to be viable. The fact remains those traits make thumper too tanky. If there needs to be turret traits, then don’t make every single one compound how tanky they can be.

and like the trebuchet it cannot move, thus being just a nice target that can’t counterattack if you deal with it from a distance, or until you come close enough.

It doesn’t need to move when it’s right smack in the middle of a point.

Killing turrets from a distance just isn’t viable except for a few builds that got the AOE damage to do it. You can’t even AOE them most the time because engi’s place their turrets around the point, while thumper is in the center..Leaving almost all of them outside of AOE range. Unless it’s an ele’s meteor. And meleeing thumper is a joke. Engi will ping pong you all over the place.

And by the time you do kill them (if you even can), the engi already has ticked so many points from that point while you were being worthless that he already has a moral victory, anyways.

Also, you can’t expect for them to be balanced over a fully traited build like the one you’re likely mentioning. Traits are there to make things good, not barely viable. Especially if you pile multiple traits up. They must have a sensible effect.
Cause doing so means the engineer itself will have few to no traits upon himself (or the main weapon). A tradeoff, basically.

If engi turrets had some risk or skill involved to them, I might agree. But they’re more than viable and the counterplay needed to beat them should not exist in GW. It’s basically avoid point or 2v1 engi.

Here’s my idea…
Asside from crate, make all turrets disappear after a certain ammount of time.
Turret long cd divided by 2 = how long they’re active on ground. Example: Rifle lasts 10s. Net lasts 15, etc
They can pick up their turrets instantly if they choose to. Once picked up, they can drop their turrets again after the turrets mini cd. The turret’s individual fire rate represents that turrets mini cd, adding +1 second.

Example
Engineer casts Rifle turret on point. Rifle turret fires 5 times before disappearing and going on its normal 20s cd.
Example continued
Engineer casts Rifle turret. Rifle turret instantly fires. Engineer picks it up. Waits 3s. Engineer casts Rifle turret. Turret instantly fires. Engineer picks it up.

Pros
Roaming around with turrets is ever more effortlessly, casting them and picking them up appropriately. Turrets will almost never die due to engi picking them up, if he chooses to; if turrets are low on health he can simply pick them up.

Cons
-Having to instantly pick up all turrets and wait for their cds will reduce Engineers overall dps and cc. If he wants max dps, he’ll have to leave turrets out longer, putting the turrets at risk of dissapearing or dying.
-Forces the Engineer to think about his turret placement more, maybe even forcing him to group in 1 area for convenience; even though, doing so will make his turrets vulnerable to aoe attacks. Even then, most will instantly pick up their turrets and lose dps.
-He has to keep track of each turret’s time so they don’t go on cd.

-We can counter-play the Engi by ccing him before he can pick up his turrets, if he chooses to leave them out
-His turrets will almost always be nearby instead of hard to reach areas.
-Turrets can no longer sit at home while the Engi is across the map. They will go on cd all too soon to be of any use.

It’s a nerf and buff at the same time…
Just my 2 copper.

You know whats even more cancerous than turret engi?.. the turret engi players telling the top players who go to tournaments and win games to l2p LOL. Alot of top players want the build gutted but hey keep thinking you are more skilled then them with an auto pilot build.

Definitely needs a nerf, the build is just stupid and practically plays itself with very little counter play for many builds, as turrets cannot receive conditions or critical hits.

Lifestealer.4910:

You know whats even more cancerous than turret engi?.. the turret engi players telling the top players who go to tournaments and win games to l2p LOL. Alot of top players want the build gutted but hey keep thinking you are more skilled then them with an auto pilot build.

TOP Players think that you’re( as part of average/mediocre league) are not GOOD enough to beat, outsmart a turret engi and in this they’re 100% correct.
One of the main reasons why Abjured win is rotations, a concept that the majority of solo/PUGS ignore, therefore turret engy dominates at average levels.

I can foresee this: “Coming Soon™ in HoT expansion, turrets gain ability to become mobile AI units that follow the Engineer with Engineer’s specialisation.” Its one weakness of lack of mobility is now covered. That’ll totally explain the promo trailer.

Akikaze.1307:

I can foresee this: “Coming Soon™ in HoT expansion, turrets gain ability to become mobile AI units that follow the Engineer with Engineer’s specialisation.” Its one weakness of lack of mobility is now covered. That’ll totally explain the promo trailer.

50 bucks for making Turrets turn into Drones?

P2W as always.

Supreme.3164:

Lifestealer.4910:

You know whats even more cancerous than turret engi?.. the turret engi players telling the top players who go to tournaments and win games to l2p LOL. Alot of top players want the build gutted but hey keep thinking you are more skilled then them with an auto pilot build.

TOP Players think that you’re( as part of average/mediocre league) are not GOOD enough to beat, outsmart a turret engi and in this they’re 100% correct.
One of the main reasons why Abjured win is rotations, a concept that the majority of solo/PUGS ignore, therefore turret engy dominates at average levels.

You talk of outsmarting yet how come the people who play turret engi do not need to outsmart anyone, they can faceroll their keyboard and achieve results. Also, don’t bs me with “hur dur turret engi do have to think”, I main an engineer and have played every build for a reasonable amount of time, turret engi is by far biggest auto pilot build, I can literally program a bot to play the spec for me while I go watch TV ( Not saying I have but I can easily). You can argue with me about balance all you want but in the end of the day, turret engineer has no right to exist in a competitive scenario.

Nerf turret hp to 5k -> problem solved.

or make every turret cd to 15 sec.

(guardian spirit weapons were OP and then came nerf so nerf turrets too)

Kagamiku.9731:

It deals too much damage even with its rate of fire. That turret combined with the other turrets and the engi’s auto attack damage is just too overwhelming. The rocket turret makes the largest impact as far as damage is concerned, though.

Rocket turret is indeed the most damaging out of them – that’s why killing it first is a must (and with its 50s cooldown, the battle will be done before it can return to the battlefield).

Kagamiku.9731:

Of course. Traiting for turrets is the only thing turret Engi needs to be viable. The fact remains those traits make thumper too tanky. If there needs to be turret traits, then don’t make every single one compound how tanky they can be.

Well, actually, the defensive turret traits are 2 out of 8.
Albeit, a turret build will likely get most of them.

Kagamiku.9731:

It doesn’t need to move when it’s right smack in the middle of a point.

Killing turrets from a distance just isn’t viable except for a few builds that got the AOE damage to do it. You can’t even AOE them most the time because engi’s place their turrets around the point, while thumper is in the center..Leaving almost all of them outside of AOE range. Unless it’s an ele’s meteor.

Define “viable”. If you expect to deal with all of them quickly, you’re basically asking to make them useless. Those 3 turrets are all the utilities that engineer has got, and they must make up for the lack of a second weapon as well. Without them he’s toasted.

And meleeing thumper is a joke. Engi will ping pong you all over the place.

With a single CC? Or yet another trait (and even then, he must detonate turrets to do so…while doing that with the healing turret isn’t an issue, anything else would decrease his offense).
Assuming you even need to melee the thumper one, anyway. Its radius isn’t that big, after all. Imho, it is more a matter of some capture points being too small, and should be made bigger, so that aoe can’t take the entire point (and that would also work versus grenade spam, since it would force the user to aim a bit at least).

And by the time you do kill them (if you even can), the engi already has ticked so many points from that point while you were being worthless that he already has a moral victory, anyways.
If engi turrets had some risk or skill involved to them, I might agree. But they’re more than viable and the counterplay needed to beat them should not exist in GW. It’s basically avoid point or 2v1 engi.

As i said above – if you expect them to go down quickly while being fully traited for, you’re asking them to be useless. Without them out, the engineer has just a single main weapon that is even weaker than other main weapons by design. The engineer is nothing without his utilities, whatever they may be.
And it isn’t like the turret engineer has no risks, anyway – you can’t CC or condi his turrets, but sure you can do that with him. And when he has 3 turrets out, he can’t have stun breakers (outside of detonating thumper turret and use his toolbelt) or condi cleanse (only the two provided by the healing turret). The engineer itself ends up being the weakest link of the chain, but it couldn’t be otherwise – everything is spent to make turrets better.

And what i would like to avoid to see is another “grenade kit” situation, where they completely gutted the base kit because piling up a ton of traits made the traited kit strong. Forcing people that wanted to use said kit to trait for it to be viable.
If they have to trim down turrets because the traited ones are an issue, just delete some of those 8 traits instead.
But even then that won’t solve the second issue – you can’t expect much active play when you have only 5 weapon skills at your disposal, plus some turret overcharges. And turret overcharges can’t be simply shortened down, as they’re often tied with CC.
Sure, they could lessen the autoattack damage and make overcharge skills deal more damage, but what would change then? People would complain cause their bursts are too strong. The situation isn’t something that simple to solve.
And making them useless like many want to isn’t a solution, anyway.

Ragnarox.9601:

(guardian spirit weapons were OP and then came nerf so nerf turrets too)

Inability Force to compare both spirit weapons and turrets is very strong in you.
I strongly hope that developer team will listen to your wishes.

Manuhell.2759:

As i said above – if you expect them to go down quickly while being fully traited for, you’re asking them to be useless. Without them out, the engineer has just a single main weapon that is even weaker than other main weapons by design. The engineer is nothing without his utilities, whatever they may be.
And it isn’t like the turret engineer has no risks, anyway – you can’t CC or condi his turrets, but sure you can do that with him. And when he has 3 turrets out, he can’t have stun breakers (outside of detonating thumper turret and use his toolbelt) or condi cleanse (only the two provided by the healing turret). The engineer itself ends up being the weakest link of the chain, but it couldn’t be otherwise – everything is spent to make turrets better.

And what i would like to avoid to see is another “grenade kit” situation, where they completely gutted the base kit because piling up a ton of traits made the traited kit strong. Forcing people that wanted to use said kit to trait for it to be viable.
If they have to trim down turrets because the traited ones are an issue, just delete some of those 8 traits instead.
But even then that won’t solve the second issue – you can’t expect much active play when you have only 5 weapon skills at your disposal, plus some turret overcharges. And turret overcharges can’t be simply shortened down, as they’re often tied with CC.
Sure, they could lessen the autoattack damage and make overcharge skills deal more damage, but what would change then? People would complain cause their bursts are too strong. The situation isn’t something that simple to solve.
And making them useless like many want to isn’t a solution, anyway.

Why should that skill set be the consider for such treatment there, there are skill sets across numerous profession that are trait heavy dependency by design?

Manuhell.2759:

Rocket turret is indeed the most damaging out of them – that’s why killing it first is a must (and with its 50s cooldown, the battle will be done before it can return to the battlefield).

It can be really hard to target it considering its range (1500 when traited…so is rifle turret for that matter) and how turret engis place them these days. Especially on certain maps. Sometimes they’re completely unreachable thanks to deployable turrets trait.

Well, actually, the defensive turret traits are 2 out of 8.
Albeit, a turret build will likely get most of them.

Two of the five they take directly help the turrets sustain while two of the others help the engineers sustain…Which is just as bad.
The one that doesn’t is a problem on its own. It’s the whole reason turrets have insane range.

With a single CC? Or yet another trait (and even then, he must detonate turrets to do so…while doing that with the healing turret isn’t an issue, anything else would decrease his offense).

That single CC is on a 15 second CD and it has no tell so it’s essentially unavoidable unless you get lucky and dodge roll just as it goes off. Also, that’s hardly all Turret engi has for CC. Overcharged rocket knocks down, overcharged thumper knocks down, and exploding turrets knock down. Turret engi conveniently has net shot too, so he can just fire that right before an overcharge to guarantee it hits.

Assuming you even need to melee the thumper one, anyway. Its radius isn’t that big, after all. Imho, it is more a matter of some capture points being too small, and should be made bigger, so that aoe can’t take the entire point (and that would also work versus grenade spam, since it would force the user to aim a bit at least).

You kinda do. Thumper is really, really durable and ranged damage tends to be weaker than melee damage. Unless you’re a pewpewranger or an ele.
Points bigger would help considering turret engis are noticeably weaker on large points like mid at Foefire…But I don’t foresee that happening anytime soon, and Turret engis only thrive in pvp…so it’s the format they should be balanced in.

As i said above – if you expect them to go down quickly while being fully traited for, you’re asking them to be useless. Without them out, the engineer has just a single main weapon that is even weaker than other main weapons by design. The engineer is nothing without his utilities, whatever they may be.

There are so many steps to finally taking out a turret engi that you’re pretty much wasting your time trying to solo one off a point. And that’s where my issue comes in. You’re better off ignoring them throughout the whole game then you are trying to take their point back.

But even then that won’t solve the second issue – you can’t expect much active play when you have only 5 weapon skills at your disposal, plus some turret overcharges. And turret overcharges can’t be simply shortened down, as they’re often tied with CC.
Sure, they could lessen the autoattack damage and make overcharge skills deal more damage, but what would change then? People would complain cause their bursts are too strong. The situation isn’t something that simple to solve.
And making them useless like many want to isn’t a solution, anyway.

What engi needs is to have more dodgeable skills. As it is, turret engi is just a bunch of AI all attacking you at same time, with a rifle that has skills without a tell. If Overcharged turret did more damage and turret base damage was lowered, that would actually help…because overcharged actually has a tell. So if an engi isn’t able to hit you with overcharged turret, he will take a big hit to his damage. Hence actually being in line with risk/reward. Of course, rifle needs to be fixed as well, since Overcharged shot has zero activation time, he could just combo the skill with Overcharged turrets.

Turret engi is a stationary build, that excels in its role in 1v1 or even 2v2 fights on the point. Introducing other PvP arenas with less point contesting, or even just bigger contesting zones, might be the answer. Then they’ll fill a certain functionality, but don’t dominate the game in the mid skill area (where probably most of the players can be categorized into).

Bran.7425:

Why should that skill set be the consider for such treatment there, there are skill sets across numerous profession that are trait heavy dependency by design?

Define “trait heavy dependency”. Cause in turret’s case we’re talking about at least 4 or 5 traits, eventually with multiple grandmaster traits involved.
Also, the other professions have two weapons (or four attunements). They are balanced differently to start with. If you want the engineer to be like them, give also the same advantage they all share – a second weapon. Cause the toolbelt alone doesn’t warrant its lack.

Kagamiku.9731:

It can be really hard to target it considering its range (1500 when traited…so is rifle turret for that matter) and how turret engis place them these days. Especially on certain maps. Sometimes they’re completely unreachable thanks to deployable turrets trait.

Well, going in and out LoS or turret range may help. Still, such an increase is indeed steep, but what is the alternative? Turrets can’t move, so anyone staying far enough could snipe ranged turret down without any retaliation if there wasn’t a way – a costly one, it is a grandmaster trait after all – to raise their range. And that alone makes it necessary.
What they could change there is about the increase damage part of the trait – maybe change that to a reduction of overcharges cooldown or an increase of their damage; it would still increase the overall damage, but the engineer has to actively use the skills.

Kagamiku.9731:

Two of the five they take directly help the turrets sustain while two of the others help the engineers sustain…Which is just as bad.
The one that doesn’t is a problem on its own. It’s the whole reason turrets have insane range.

As i said above, there aren’t actually other choices. Being able to hit even the ranged turrets without retaliation would make them worthless if it wasn’t so. And it still requires a grandmaster trait to do so, on a tree that already offers very limited choices for anything that isn’t a turret (thus only a full turret build can afford to get it, unless they want to waste the other traits).

Kagamiku.9731:

That single CC is on a 15 second CD and it has no tell so it’s essentially unavoidable unless you get lucky and dodge roll just as it goes off. Also, that’s hardly all Turret engi has for CC. Overcharged rocket knocks down, overcharged thumper knocks down, and exploding turrets knock down. Turret engi conveniently has net shot too, so he can just fire that right before an overcharge to guarantee it hits.

Well, you said pingponging, thus i assumed you only meant the instant ones (the “exploding turrets” you mention of – and that’s still another trait, by the way – and overcharge shot). And that the rocket turret would already be dealt with (meleeing the thumper with the rocket turret still active would be a suicide).Overcharge shot should have a discussion on its own, instead (it lacks a tell because of the self-knockback…acting as an aftercast delay instead of a proper cast time; and because being reliably able to reflect back the launch on top of the self-knockback it already inflicts on the user would make it far too risky to use; basically, any change on it being instant is tied with a change on the self knockback).

Kagamiku.9731:

You kinda do. Thumper is really, really durable and ranged damage tends to be weaker than melee damage. Unless you’re a pewpewranger or an ele.
Points bigger would help considering turret engis are noticeably weaker on large points like mid at Foefire…But I don’t foresee that happening anytime soon, and Turret engis only thrive in pvp…so it’s the format they should be balanced in.

If you have to go melee and the engineer is staying near the thumper turret, you could as well maul the engineer directly, though. If he tries to move away, he will just make things harder for himself.
Another solution could be having a relatively normal ranged point, but that moves programmatically inside an area. In doing so, the engineer would have to follow the point to not let other capture it, thus reducing the time he can protect himself using the thumper turret as a shield since it wouldn’t be always inside the capture point area (and also working well toward aoe barrages, as people should still have to aim for a moving area, while giving inventive uses to trap-like skills and such).

Kagamiku.9731:

There are so many steps to finally taking out a turret engi that you’re pretty much wasting your time trying to solo one off a point. And that’s where my issue comes in. You’re better off ignoring them throughout the whole game then you are trying to take their point back.

Well, it is a point holder build – keeping the point is exactly what they’re heavily specialized to do. And more than steps, we should talk about not just rushing blindingly inside their safe haven – playing how an engi turret wants you to do is a recipe for a loss.

Kagamiku.9731:

What engi needs is to have more dodgeable skills. As it is, turret engi is just a bunch of AI all attacking you at same time, with a rifle that has skills without a tell.
If Overcharged turret did more damage and turret base damage was lowered, that would actually help…because overcharged actually has a tell. So if an engi isn’t able to hit you with overcharged turret, he will take a big hit to his damage. Hence actually being in line with risk/reward. Of course, rifle needs to be fixed as well, since Overcharged shot has zero activation time, he could just combo the skill with Overcharged turrets.

…and that’s what i referred for as “people complaining later”. Unless they rework what it does, overcharged shot won’t and can’t lose its zero activation time.
I would also add that doing sustained damage is basically a theme of the engineer, be it with kits or turrets. Burst damage type skills are quite limited in that regard due of the possibility to chaining them all together (often this means making them aoe with moderate power, like grenade barrage and big ol’ bomb, so that you won’t kill someone by just chaining them; and if a way to do that happens to be discovered, it gets nerfed -100grenades says bye here).
The most damaging turrets are single targeted, though. So would their bursts. And if you think a rocket does damage now, well, don’t do any calculation on what it should do later if you shift even just 25% of the power by normal attacks made on a period equal to an overcharge recharge time.
Some attacks would have to be reworked, too. Rifle turret overcharge just makes it shoot faster. Just shifting the damage would be problematic (10s of high fire rate and moderate-to-high damage? what about no?).
Basically, any such proposal isn’t something that would be simple to balance. They would probably require a detailed rework of all the skills involved. There is no bandaid solution that can work here.

As your Nerfing the Eng, Could you also have there turret disappear once they leave a cap wile they are at the other side of the map? …..I mean really? They don’t have to be there & there turrets gangking what ever shows up there. That’s just plain stupid.

As i already explained before, it wouldn’t make sense for them to disappear either. Wherever the engineer is, he’s there just with the rifle if the turrets are all somewhere else. And if he’s killed, the turrets are gone as well. He already takes a risk in doing so, beside making the protected point weaker – as if he can’t kitten the situation, he can’t be able to properly use the overcharges either.