Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-don-t-you-like-SPvP/first

I made this Thread on the General discussion forum about why people dont like SPvP, Most the people in there are PvE’ers or WvW’ers… anyways what im trying to get at is that it looks like Guildwars2’s player base consist of a whole bunch of “kitten”… so to say.

Most peoples reasoning behind not wanting to PvP is because it diverts its self away from the main plot, it creates an un-fun enviroment for the opposing players (that is if you kill them) and mostly “toxic chat”.

Now if you ask me, ive played all forms of PvP games from Guildwars1 to WoW and HoN and League and Dota and CS:GO…. All forms of toxicity exist in each game so its not a matter of riding the community of toxic players, but rather a reform in who you’re attracting to play this game! You put out a whole lot of the “come play we have an awesome story line” kind of game.

Ill be posting more later, but for now I want to see if i get any community reaction out of this thread, Post below if you agree / disagree.

There are people who like and dislike PvP.

Simple as that.

It’s a little bit difficult to gauge a correct consensus from a poll you would ask on the general forums at this point. It’s similar to how the big news sites manipulate polls. You can ask 2000 people, but if you ask the right group at the right time, you can pretty much guarantee your responses.

You are asking a PvE-centric sub-forum about why they don’t PvE 2.5 years after release. The only people that still browse the forums (because they still play this game) are going to be people that love this game because it’s basically a “shiny collection game”.

The group that still plays this game doesn’t want competition and prefers easy specs to just “see the story”, which is why you see so much passive combat elements, because those players want that stuff.

So, I went on a tangent there, but it would have been better to make that at a time and place where you could ask all the potential PvP players why they were turned off and you’d get a better answer. But, as you’ve already seen, the game is catered around a cash shop, “i’ll spend $10 on a plush backpack because it’s sooooooo cute” crowd instead of the hardcore players that just want a fun, even, competitive game /rant

i made similar research like 1.5 year ago…
some ppl just don’t like pvp and some actually claim that pve is harder… O_o

what people want from a game is ultimately to have a good time. A game where the best players ruin the fun of others isn’t healthy for the type of sales design Anet has put in place. Should pvp cater to elites? yes. Should it cater to casuals? yes. Anet has done a good job in pve for it (fractals vs farming in a random zone) and wvw has this naturally with farming trains vs organized guild groups. In pvp they are trying to achieve this by improving the matchmaking system, which works to an extent, but there are other variables to consider such as team comp and experience. I believe they took a step in the wrong direction by eliminating the difference between hotjoin (unranked) and a rated match. A step in the right direction would be creating a clear difference between casual matches vs hardcore matches, which I feel was better done within the old model.

I played WvW from the start but I only started PvP’ing about a year ago.

When I first tried PvP it felt weird frankly. The duke nukem voice over, the capture points, and the respawn after death, it all made it feel like I was in a game of team fortress or something.

I did not try it again for ages. I kept playing WvW, getting more and more frustrated with the terrible balance and stale maps.

I also much prefer roaming over zerging, but even if the matchups were close it was often impossible to solo roam without getting run over by a mob.

The final straw was when my power ranger could not out damage the passive heal of an AFK healing signet warrior (this is pre sig nerf / pre ranger buff).

Fed up with WvW I decided to give pvp another go, and I have never looked back.

What it took me a year to realise is that pvp is:

1. the most balanced part of the game,
2. all of the fights are small scale, like roaming in wvw,
3. the reward tracks make it far more rewarding than wvw,

The balance is the key thing here. People complain about the balance in this forum all the time but compared to wvw, well there is no comparison. Classes are so out of whack in wvw its not funny.

So I am a happy wvw to pvp convert. I hope other people see the light.

Sube Dai.8496:

I played WvW from the start but I only started PvP’ing about a year ago.

When I first tried PvP it felt weird frankly. The duke nukem voice over, the capture points, and the respawn after death, it all made it feel like I was in a game of team fortress or something.

I did not try it again for ages. I kept playing WvW, getting more and more frustrated with the terrible balance and stale maps.

I also much prefer roaming over zerging, but even if the matchups were close it was often impossible to solo roam without getting run over by a mob.

The final straw was when my power ranger could not out damage the passive heal of an AFK healing signet warrior (this is pre sig nerf / pre ranger buff).

Fed up with WvW I decided to give pvp another go, and I have never looked back.

What it took me a year to realise is that pvp is:

1. the most balanced part of the game,
2. all of the fights are small scale, like roaming in wvw,
3. the reward tracks make it far more rewarding than wvw,

The balance is the key thing here. People complain about the balance in this forum all the time but compared to wvw, well there is no comparison. Classes are so out of whack in wvw its not funny.

So I am a happy wvw to pvp convert. I hope other people see the light.

Happy to hear someone actually feels like this. Although there are major improvements to be had Its a much better part of the game in general.

This game has always been developed to cater to casual players. This is necessary because it is driven by the cash shop and in-game economy, which work together in a very delicate balance that requires actual game rewards to be few and far-between. No one wants to play hardcore content for rubbish drops after all.

I believe Anet have been trying to get more of the player base (casuals included) interested in PvP, and have sweetened the pot with the reward tracks. I think this was done because they haven’t added anything with real replay value to PvE. This could explain why they have made ranked and unranked rewards equal, and added a simple death match mode. I predict there will be a lot more along teose lines in the future, and hopefully the structure will allow casual and hardcore players to stay clear out of each others’ way.

For what it’s worth, I’m a semi-casual recent convert to PvP. Came for the rewards but stayed for the fun.

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

That is exactly what I said.

casual =/= easy
casual = little to no time required to reach end game content

As someone who has only recently started playing PvP since beta I don’t think PvP caters to casuals at all. They’re trying to make it more friendly to casuals with the matchmaking improvements, but I wouldn’t say catered.
In PvE you can complete just about any content in the game with whatever build you like and whatever group composition you like, it’s just a matter of time. That’s catering to casuals, they can play however they like and still complete content. You can’t do that in PvP and expect to not get dominated.

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

That is exactly what I said.

casual =/= easy
casual = little to no time required to reach end game content

You know that PvE in GW2 is the most casual among all games probably?
Also your reasoning counting PvP as casual because it’s easily accessable is weird, because PvP unlike PvE is about competitive not grind. There is no reason why it should be otherwise, and being easily accessible doesn’t make it casual. Grind has nothing with ‘hardcore’, which is usualy used as opposition to ‘casual’.

I don’t think time invested is a good way to distinguish casual from hardcore gaming. The complexity and effort required are better criteria.

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

That is exactly what I said.

casual =/= easy
casual = little to no time required to reach end game content

You know that PvE in GW2 is the most casual among all games probably?
Also your reasoning counting PvP as casual because it’s easily accessable is weird, because PvP unlike PvE is about competitive not grind. There is no reason why it should be otherwise, and being easily accessible doesn’t make it casual. Grind has nothing with ‘hardcore’, which is usualy used as opposition to ‘casual’.

You know that gw2 pvp is also super casual compared with almost every mmorpg? You dont need gear, you can pretty much copy paste builds and people learn to play in a few weeks.

Yes hardcore = grindy, long term goal

Pve in gw2 is braindead easy but still less casual than spvp. Is like comparing a slug and a turtle to see which one is slower. Both are slow but one is slower. The same way both pve and pvp are casual in this game.

dictionary for casual:

" Occurring at irregular or infrequent intervals; occasional:"
" Being without ceremony or formality; relaxed or informal:"

I know lots of friends that log in play a few pvp matches and log out. Do you think this pvp is hardcore? I don’t think so

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

That is exactly what I said.

casual =/= easy
casual = little to no time required to reach end game content

You know that PvE in GW2 is the most casual among all games probably?
Also your reasoning counting PvP as casual because it’s easily accessable is weird, because PvP unlike PvE is about competitive not grind. There is no reason why it should be otherwise, and being easily accessible doesn’t make it casual. Grind has nothing with ‘hardcore’, which is usualy used as opposition to ‘casual’.

You know that gw2 pvp is also super casual compared with almost every mmorpg? You dont need gear, you can pretty much copy paste builds and people learn to play in a few weeks.

Yes hardcore = grindy, long term goal

Pve in gw2 is braindead easy but still less casual than spvp. Is like comparing a slug and a turtle to see which one is slower. Both are slow but one is slower. The same way both pve and pvp are casual in this game.

dictionary for casual:

" Occurring at irregular or infrequent intervals; occasional:"
" Being without ceremony or formality; relaxed or informal:"

I know lots of friends that log in play a few pvp matches and log out. Do you think this pvp is hardcore? I don’t think so

You know that the only PVP MMO which was GW1 would be casual compared to WoW if we use your definitions?

GW PvP is hardcore compared to other MMOs because you win due to dedication (skill) instead of gear etc (grind). If certain mode is easy to enter doesn’t mean it’s casual, we could call it casual if it’s easy to learn at competitive level. GW actualy is rewarding skill instead of time spent like hardcore PvP Esports should do.

If sPvP is so casual, then why Abjured is so dominating at NA?

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

That is exactly what I said.

casual =/= easy
casual = little to no time required to reach end game content

You know that PvE in GW2 is the most casual among all games probably?
Also your reasoning counting PvP as casual because it’s easily accessable is weird, because PvP unlike PvE is about competitive not grind. There is no reason why it should be otherwise, and being easily accessible doesn’t make it casual. Grind has nothing with ‘hardcore’, which is usualy used as opposition to ‘casual’.

You know that gw2 pvp is also super casual compared with almost every mmorpg? You dont need gear, you can pretty much copy paste builds and people learn to play in a few weeks.

Yes hardcore = grindy, long term goal

Pve in gw2 is braindead easy but still less casual than spvp. Is like comparing a slug and a turtle to see which one is slower. Both are slow but one is slower. The same way both pve and pvp are casual in this game.

dictionary for casual:

" Occurring at irregular or infrequent intervals; occasional:"
" Being without ceremony or formality; relaxed or informal:"

I know lots of friends that log in play a few pvp matches and log out. Do you think this pvp is hardcore? I don’t think so

You know that the only PVP MMO which was GW1 would be casual compared to WoW if we use your definitions?

GW PvP is hardcore compared to other MMOs because you win due to dedication (skill) instead of gear etc (grind). If certain mode is easy to enter doesn’t mean it’s casual, we could call it casual if it’s easy to learn at competitive level. GW actualy is rewarding skill instead of time spent like hardcore PvP Esports should do.

If sPvP is so casual, then why Abjured is so dominating at NA?

I copy pasted the definition of casual from a dictionary. Now if you want to create your own definition to the word that is not my problem.

gw1 was more casual than wow.

In spvp we have like only 5-10 teams in NA and 5-10 in EU. That is why you only see the same guys. The bad conquest mode a series of other factors makes the vast majority of the playerbase focus in other game modes and not take spvp seriously.

I think you all are arguing different things.

PvP is casual in the sense that it provides a casual playing environment for its players. There’s nothing involved that selecting a small handful of things, pasting a build from the internet, and jumping into a game.

PvP isn’t casual in the sense that it doesn’t provide a casual playing experience for its players. The game has almost no diversity, poor balance, and all design decisions are made to cater to the top X%. This is bad overall because you introduce numerous barriers to entry for players and only a dedicated few bother to stay invested.

Class and build have far too much impact on the outcome of a match in this game.

Atherakhia.4086:

I think you all are arguing different things.

PvP is casual in the sense that it provides a casual playing environment for its players. There’s nothing involved that selecting a small handful of things, pasting a build from the internet, and jumping into a game.

PvP isn’t casual in the sense that it doesn’t provide a casual playing experience for its players. The game has almost no diversity, poor balance, and all design decisions are made to cater to the top X%. This is bad overall because you introduce numerous barriers to entry for players and only a dedicated few bother to stay invested.

Class and build have far too much impact on the outcome of a match in this game.

Design decisions don’t really cater to the top X%. If it did then leaderboards would matter and rank 80s would never be paired with newer players. All these theories about wether pvp is for casuals or not doesnt matter; what matters is, is anet creating a fun, lasting experience within pvp. If the experience is fun, then you will have more people dedicated to it. Adding reward tracks was a decent idea, it got more people to do pvp, but it never solved the core of the problem. It didn’t improve the overall experience dedicated players were having. If they really want to see pvp exceed, they need to open up different game modes, give dedicated players a meaningful goal (easily done by making leaderboards based on wins only) while still maintaining the casual experience (reward tracks and hot joins). Anet seems too scared to give dedicated players what they want because it may harm the casual experience, but the minute dedicated players leave the game is the minute they failed to make a good game.

xDudisx.5914:

snip

A little quote about casual games from wikipedia:

A casual game is a video game targeted at or used by a mass audience of casual gamers. Casual games can have any type of gameplay, and fit in any genre. They are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games. They require no long-term time commitment or special skills to play, and there are comparatively low production and distribution costs for the producer

We could say that PvP in GW2 has nothing with casual gamming, because even if you don’t need to invest time be on equal footing in pvp gear wise, you need to do so to be on equal footing skill wise. Also game (pvp wise) is pretty complex and it won’t be easy to jump in for casuals since they will fail horribly due to skill floors in action-reaction fast paced fights, where it’s often dodge in right moment or die.

xDudisx.5914:

Morwath.9817:

xDudisx.5914:

You know that spvp is actually the most casual game mode right?

Casual = doens’t play very often of for long hours.

Spvp is the only game mode where you dont need to unlock utilities, have almost all the traits for free,etc. Is the only ready2go game mode. You log in an play. The other modes require you to lvl up and grind some gear.

If they add something like guild spvp we would probably get an influx of players much higher than the actual pvp population.

If you’re trying to say that PvP is casual and PvE isn’t…

That is exactly what I said.

casual =/= easy
casual = little to no time required to reach end game content

Okay, so yes to an extent pvp is casual because of the easy beginnings, But Its nature as a human vs human mode is what makes it hard. And when people who fight bots the whole day come to the HotM and enter a match they get destroyed and say its to hard and fast paced.

Dramen Maidria.1034:

As someone who has only recently started playing PvP since beta I don’t think PvP caters to casuals at all. They’re trying to make it more friendly to casuals with the matchmaking improvements, but I wouldn’t say catered.
In PvE you can complete just about any content in the game with whatever build you like and whatever group composition you like, it’s just a matter of time. That’s catering to casuals, they can play however they like and still complete content. You can’t do that in PvP and expect to not get dominated.

Thats not the topic, The topic is Anet caters to casuals Via Guildwars2, not PvP… We all know the difference between pvp / pve! But since the vast majority of the gamers play casual pve / wvw they dont like and most actually hate PvP

This is why you shouldn’t look at forum topics with 3 hours of sleep. I wasn’t describing the difference between PvP and PvE, just pointing out that PvE is very casual friendly while PvP is not.
The game was described during development as more designed with casuals in mind, their entire idea for the game was that you weren’t going to need certain party comps to complete content or specific builds. Outside of high level fractals, Arah, and a handful of other dungeon paths this game was designed for casuals to be able to complete content. it absolutely caters to casuals, it was their intended main player base. Additional content was put in for more hardcore players, and they still add bits here and there (LS achievements), but this is very much a game designed for casual players to be able to play just about every bit of content.

Dis thread

GW2 is a casual game yes. sPvP is casual. If you want to be very good then you it isn’t casual.

Wait, so because people have different opinions from you they are “kittens”?

Anyway, GW2 is game for casual and includes all game modes, get over it.

Also, I have to disagree when someone says PvP is all about skill when in truth is the same builds everywhere, everyone using a bunker meta copied from metabattle and doing the same rotation, never changes. As much as boring as PvE…

azyume.6321:

Also, I have to disagree when someone says PvP is all about skill when in truth is the same builds everywhere, everyone using a bunker meta copied from metabattle and doing the same rotation, never changes. As much as boring as PvE…

This makes little sense…

If all players have the same builds and same gear out of the gate (as is possible currently), the only deciding factor for a win then is skill.

The skill to execute the said rotation and use the said builds. So it’s all about skill as people compete on an equal footing.

On topic, I think it’s mostly fear of the unknown.
There are people saying the exact same thing about PvE and dungeons, where people get kicked from groups because they don’t have gear, being insulted because they are noobs in a dungeon, etc.

Truth is: there is always a proportion of players that will be a PITA, and this is true in PvE and PvP (and probably WvW although I imagine the responsibility is so diluted there between 100s players that you can’t quite play the same blame game and finger pointing in WvW).

There is a meta in all competitive games, gw2 isn’t an exception, even the pve competitive aspect there is a meta with same builds.

I’ll reiterate what you all have been saying, since everyone is technically right.

SPvP/TPvP is casual for experienced players but not for newer players. The PvP skill level is high. Failing in SPvP isn’t exactly as forgiving as it is in PvE and WvW.

New players would greatly benefit if their class had 4 predefined build sets that’s accessible through build editor. Skill levels and weaknesses could be listed for these builds as well. For example, a build could say, “Has little condition cleanses but very mobile”, etc.

No one knows about Metabuild sites unless they are told… even if they knew, casuals don’t want to take the time to view the site and learn. It’s why they’re casuals.

The SPvP scene has very little casual play, or replay value, for inexperienced players.

As someone who’s read the other thread, I think dismissing these concerns as “casual” is unfair. There are a lot of complaints about PvP in that thread, and a few of them could be described as “casual” concerns. The majority of people complained about verbal abuse in PvP though. I don’t care what kind of gamer you are, nobody enjoys that on the scale it happens in PvP. And the suggestions to rid yourself of chat don’t help when you’re playing to win. It happens a lot in mapchat, and almost as often in team chat. Who’s going to turn off team chat just to avoid being called a “kittening noob kitten sucking casual piece of kitten?” Everyone’s tolerance is a little different. This kind of thing doesn’t get to me much in terms of my personal feelings, but that doesn’t mean I can’t see it as the problem it is. Once in a while I get a whisper after a match from whoever was the target of it, asking what they did wrong. Well…nothing! Sometimes it’s what they did right – they took far, twice, or managed to rally, or some other game mechanic that’s totally appropriate to use.

Or, they did do something wrong, or a lot of things wrong! Let’s say it’s their first day in PvP and they wandered into the most inappropriate game mode for them. Or just played badly because it’s their first day, or first week, whatever. Explaining to them what the different game modes are for goes a lot further than insulting them. It actually helps everyone involved. Ditto with explaining the necessity for condi removal and stunbreaks in PvP, when they’ve come from PvE and have never really needed to use those things before.

This kind of bullying is present in every PvP game I’ve played, but that doesn’t make it okay. I feel that the PvP community should be more proactive about it. I’m often the only person in a match of 10 people to ask bullies to stop bullying, or to make the point that it is just bullying and can be ignored. When nobody says anything, it seems more common and accepted than it really is.