Guild Wars 2

The term ‘rework’ and all is fine.. but how do you propose to do it? All the suggestions I’ve seen with regards to diamond skin so far only nerfs it’s ability to counter conditions while still providing nothing against power builds.

Every diamond skin ‘rework’ advocate ever: “Oh it’s too binary so it’s bad design so let’s ‘rework’ it by nerfing how it fares against conditions. What about how it still doesn’t do anything against power builds, you say? Let’s just ignore that (since all I want is a nerf anyway).”

Pffft, sorry to burst your bubble but if you can’t play around diamond skin you probably should learn to play. I’m all for a rework but no good ideas have been put forward so far, hence it’s fine the way it is.

Edit: Stone heart is binary too and pretty much counters power builds so why not ask for a stone heart ‘rework’ too? I’m guessing it’s because your easy conditions builds (aka condi reaper and co) aren’t affected by it eh?

Using skills, which apply condis is not more passive than using skills which deal mainly direct dmg. And the majority of condis are still applied by active skill use.

Edit: You can not “play” arround DS, you can only build arround it (not running pure condi builds). For those who say DS is fine: would be a trait, which gives 100% immunity to direct dmg above 90% health fine? On a class with strong condi remove and sustain? Let’s say, ranger’s Bark Skin gives now 100% reduction instead of 33%. Would be totally balanced, right? Because you don’t have to run pure power builds …

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Using skills, which apply condis is not more passive than using skills which deal mainly direct dmg. And the majority of condis are still applied by active skill use.

Edit: You can not “play” arround DS, you can only build arround it (not running pure condi builds). For those who say DS is fine: would be a trait, which gives 100% immunity to direct dmg above 90% health fine? On a class with strong condi remove and sustain?

False. You apply condis and you watch them tick and kill. On the other hand, you have to apply power damage constantly to kill someone.

This argument has been posted multiple times, your analogy does not work and here’s why.

1. You can play around diamond skin even if you are a pure condi build by rotating. (Would you put a thief vs a guardian 1v1 pre-HoT? My point exactly. You have counters? Deal with it.)

2. Condition damage does not have a counter stat like power does (toughness).

3. Condition damage does not have a widely applicable and available counter boon (protection). Resistance is only available to certain classes and have low uptime as compared to protection.

4. Power based builds require 3 stats to truly perform (power precision ferocity) while condition based builds only need one (condition damage) as condition damage hurts even without being able to crit.

They need to make it like resistance basically…
You can be hit by conditions, but not affected by them till you are under x % HP

just make it as a warrior berserker stance, meaning that will work only 8 seconds, then even if ele is still at 90%+ condi will start beeing applied. Furthermore, add it a 60s CD (like berserker stance) meaning if you drop below 90% and, while time goes on the fight, you get back at 100%, Diamond Skin wont activate again before those 60s CD.

ReaperJr.5967:

You apply condis and you watch them tick and kill. On the other hand, you have to apply power damage constantly to kill someone.

This argument has been posted multiple times, your analogy does not work and here’s why.

All based on a false premise. Condi’s Overall damage and a hit from “direct” damage are more or less equal. It’s the same amount of damage simply applied in a different (slower) way. You dont have to “apply” more direct damage to kill someone.

ReaperJr.5967:

False. You apply condis and you watch them tick and kill. On the other hand, you have to apply power damage constantly to kill someone.

Condis need more time for their full effect, but this does not mean, they don’t have to be applied constantly. Especially when they often get cleansed. If i condibomb somebody and then just watch till he dies 10s later, it is basically the same as killing somebody with power burst in 1-2 seconds. Only difference: I don’t have to wait 10s for the stomp …

ReaperJr.5967:

1. You can play around diamond skin even if you are a pure condi build by rotating. (Would you put a thief vs a guardian 1v1 pre-HoT? My point exactly. You have counters? Deal with it.)

Thief could easily rotate because of mobility. Most condi builds aren’t that fast. And guards did not counter a whole playstyle just with a single passive trait. DS means, that NO single condi build can do anything. Not only one class …

ReaperJr.5967:

2. Condition damage does not have a counter stat like power does (toughness).

Power dmg can’t be negated after getting hit by it. Condis can …
And condis need more time to kill, which gives the opponent more time to react (cleanse, heal, counter pressure, calling friends for help, …)

ReaperJr.5967:

3. Condition damage does not have a widely applicable and available counter boon (protection). Resistance is only available to certain classes and have low uptime as compared to protection.

Resistance = 100% immunity. Protection = 33% reduction. Big difference.
Btw i think, there is too much protection in the game currently. One reason, why most powerbased dps builds are not viable currently …

ReaperJr.5967:

4. Power based builds require 3 stats to truly perform (power precision ferocity) while condition based builds only need one (condition damage) as condition damage hurts even without being able to crit.

Slower killspeed -> more time for counter pressure -> more defense needed to survive long enough, so the condis can do their work.

I think it needs more counterplay. I think this:

Diamond Skin
If you are affected by a condition while above the health threshold, gain Resistance.
Resistance: 5sec
Health threshold: 90%
Cooldown: 5sec

Slight buff to Warriors through Destruction of the Empowered. Big buff to every class with boonsteal, boonstrip or corruption.

Oh yeah, can we also nerf 5 sec aoe reflect aura spam? I mean, when on DH, I don’t mind rotating from tempests, but it seems like they don’t mind rotating after me either.

There’s 13 differents conditions in the game (if I didn’t forget one or two) there’s 5 condies dealing dmg (6 if u count chill from reaper)

When you use a cleansing skill, you remove the last condies applied (some skill/traits are different about that)

On Ele : each shout cleanse 1 or 2 condies (with cleansing water)

water attunement 1cleanse or 2 (with cleansing water AND major trait)

The cleansing flame remove 5 (if I remember) but no one using it anymore.

Water staff 5 removes 10 condies on a 10 sec period.

Water overload removes 5.

With most of the cleanse, you have a “chance” to waste totally your cleans by cleansing slow-cripple-immobilize-blind-vulnerability-fear(-chill) that just has been applied right at this moment.

Plus … A support build is made for support (as it says) and it’s almost 2vs2 or even 4vs4 build. Don’t tell me with all those ppl, u can’t take off his DS …
Advice: Ele hasn’t that much stability now… even some builds have none… Overabuse all the kittening CC mesmer-necro-revenant-guard-ranger have and it’s GG Wp in 5 sec.

Greetings.

EDIT: Even if DS is re-applied, Condies previously applied are still effective.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

DS means, that NO single condi build can do anything. Not only one class …

o.o lol

UmbraNoctis.1907:

ReaperJr.5967:

False. You apply condis and you watch them tick and kill. On the other hand, you have to apply power damage constantly to kill someone.

Condis need more time for their full effect, but this does not mean, they don’t have to be applied constantly. Especially when they often get cleansed. If i condibomb somebody and then just watch till he dies 10s later, it is basically the same as killing somebody with power burst in 1-2 seconds. Only difference: I don’t have to wait 10s for the stomp …

ReaperJr.5967:

1. You can play around diamond skin even if you are a pure condi build by rotating. (Would you put a thief vs a guardian 1v1 pre-HoT? My point exactly. You have counters? Deal with it.)

Thief could easily rotate because of mobility. Most condi builds aren’t that fast. And guards did not counter a whole playstyle just with a single passive trait. DS means, that NO single condi build can do anything. Not only one class …

ReaperJr.5967:

2. Condition damage does not have a counter stat like power does (toughness).

Power dmg can’t be negated after getting hit by it. Condis can …
And condis need more time to kill, which gives the opponent more time to react (cleanse, heal, counter pressure, calling friends for help, …)

ReaperJr.5967:

3. Condition damage does not have a widely applicable and available counter boon (protection). Resistance is only available to certain classes and have low uptime as compared to protection.

Resistance = 100% immunity. Protection = 33% reduction. Big difference.
Btw i think, there is too much protection in the game currently. One reason, why most powerbased dps builds are not viable currently …

ReaperJr.5967:

4. Power based builds require 3 stats to truly perform (power precision ferocity) while condition based builds only need one (condition damage) as condition damage hurts even without being able to crit.

Slower killspeed -> more time for counter pressure -> more defense needed to survive long enough, so the condis can do their work.

I don’t get what you’re trying to say with the first point. Yes, a condi burst is essentially the same as a power burst. Both rely on the surprise factor to deal a ton of damage. So?

Secondly, whether your build has mobility or not is irrelevant. You can rotate nonetheless. Moreover, this game isn’t balanced around 1v1. Would you send someone to 1v1 a shoutbow war or d/d cele ele pre-nerf and pre-HoT? No. Case in point.

Third point, false again. Condi can be built as burst or sustained like power. Saying condi can be negated by cleanse is like saying power damage can be negated by active defenses. E.g. someone saw your condi burst coming and cleanses right after you apply condi = you failed at bursting. Similarly, someone sees your power burst and dodges = you failed at bursting as well. How is this relevant to toughness though? Fact remains that power damage is easily countered by toughness.

I don’t get your fourth point. It seems to further support my own point?

Fifth, again, back to the point of burst condi. It isn’t necessarily slower than power damage. So..

Blooperz.6145:

ReaperJr.5967:

You apply condis and you watch them tick and kill. On the other hand, you have to apply power damage constantly to kill someone.

This argument has been posted multiple times, your analogy does not work and here’s why.

All based on a false premise. Condi’s Overall damage and a hit from “direct” damage are more or less equal. It’s the same amount of damage simply applied in a different (slower) way. You dont have to “apply” more direct damage to kill someone.

What? You’re kidding right? If I have a toughness amulet on, it will definitely take more power damage (output) to kill me as compared to condition damage.

Common guys that is a GM trait worthless under %90 HP.

Look what nos does to DS Eles with Wanderer gear (0 Power) with chillomancer….

http://www.twitch.tv/noscoc/v/32498263

watch 00:50:00

DS wouldn’t be this OP if it wasn’t for kittentons of access to healing (weapon healing skills, #6 skill, aura heal spam). Sustained heal allows them to stay above 90% hp most of the time.

posthumecaver.6473:

Common guys that is a GM trait worthless under %90 HP.

Look what nos does to DS Eles with Wanderer gear (0 Power) with chillomancer….

http://www.twitch.tv/noscoc/v/32498263

watch 00:50:00

Are you comparing your “average” necro to @Nos ?..lol good joke my friend ^^, do you know all necro playerbase run builds made by @Nos?

Supreme.3164:

posthumecaver.6473:

Common guys that is a GM trait worthless under %90 HP.

Look what nos does to DS Eles with Wanderer gear (0 Power) with chillomancer….

http://www.twitch.tv/noscoc/v/32498263

watch 00:50:00

Are you comparing your “average” necro to @Nos ?..lol good joke my friend ^^

And your average Ele to this ? XD

ReaperJr.5967:

I don’t get what you’re trying to say with the first point. Yes, a condi burst is essentially the same as a power burst. Both rely on the surprise factor to deal a ton of damage. So?

So both = active. Just what i wanted to say.

ReaperJr.5967:

Secondly, whether your build has mobility or not is irrelevant. You can rotate nonetheless. Moreover, this game isn’t balanced around 1v1. Would you send someone to 1v1 a shoutbow war or d/d cele ele pre-nerf and pre-HoT? No. Case in point.

1vs1 is part of PvP and shouldn’t be ignored completely. And nobody is saying, DS ele shouldn’t be still strong against condi builds. Just that 100% immunity against a certain type of dmg is a bad mechanic.

ReaperJr.5967:

Third point, false again. Condi can be built as burst or sustained like power. Saying condi can be negated by cleanse is like saying power damage can be negated by active defenses. E.g. someone saw your condi burst coming and cleanses right after you apply condi = you failed at bursting. Similarly, someone sees your power burst and dodges = you failed at bursting as well. How is this relevant to toughness though? Fact remains that power damage is easily countered by toughness.

Active defense/dodging works against condi application too. Cleanses don’t work against power. Don’t compare two completely different things. Thoughness is an additional defense against direct dmg. Cleanses are an additional defense against condis. They work differently and have both different advantages and disadvantages.

And yes, condibuilds can be “bursty”, but they still can’t 100 -> 0 other players as fast as some power builds. (theoretically – in practice, both power and condi “oneshot” builds are not viable). Generally condis (= dmg over time) kill slower.

There is still no reason to not give a class 100% immunity against power above 90% health, right?

ReaperJr.5967:

What? You’re kidding right? If I have a toughness amulet on, it will definitely take more power damage (output) to kill me as compared to condition damage.

If you use cleanses, it will take way more condi dmg, regardless of stats …

Supreme.3164:

posthumecaver.6473:

Common guys that is a GM trait worthless under %90 HP.

Look what nos does to DS Eles with Wanderer gear (0 Power) with chillomancer….

http://www.twitch.tv/noscoc/v/32498263

watch 00:50:00

Are you comparing your “average” necro to @Nos ?..lol good joke my friend ^^, do you know all necro playerbase run builds made by @Nos?

Cause Skill 1 and 2 on dagger is a hidden feature only @Nos can use …. >.>
just check the rotations, it’s being said before… knowing how DS works, all you have to do is open with direct damage and bomb your condis when ele is under the 90% …. that eles can heal? … well that’s why you got chill and poison to put first.

This thread boiled down to two arguments:

Argument: A good condi necro can beat DS
Counter-argument: Only a bad DS loses to a condi necro

The real question is: Can a condi necro beat a DS tempest of equal skill?

I think the necros that this community views as the best say that they can’t beat the DS tempests that this community also views as the best.

I’ve run across two types of DS tempests. There are the ones that seem to think that DS is all they need to win. They die to viper necro. Then there are the ones that are very good at managing their health and counter the direct damage they are taking to keep their health high. They don’t die.

You guys are really cherry-pickng Nos’ stream. Yes, he beats some DS while playing but he also says that there are DS that he has no chance of beating and is constantly complaining about how even a poorly played DS can still beat him.

If you are going to use him to bolster your argument then you also have to consider the things he says that are counter to your argument.

I could post videos of me killing some DS tempests and present it as proof that everything is fine, but yeah… taking a single instance of killing a DS tempest that isn’t playing correctly or has a bad build to say DS is fine would be stupid.

Oozo.7856:

This thread boiled down to two arguments:

Argument: A good condi necro can beat DS
Counter-argument: Only a bad DS loses to a condi necro

The real question is: Can a condi necro beat a DS tempest of equal skill?

I think the necros that this community views as the best say that they can’t beat the DS tempests that this community also views as the best.

I’ve run across two types of DS tempests. There are the ones that seem to think that DS is all they need to win. They die to viper necro. Then there are the ones that are very good at managing their health and counter the direct damage they are taking to keep their health high. They don’t die.

Pls define “skill”, in a MMO the guy who win is always the noob that runs OP builds and this accordingly to the general MMO pop, the real question is :

Will a nerf to DS stop necros from complaining about eles? …NO
It’s not like necros have suddenly started to complain about eles…so spare me the “I can’t beat eles because of DS” catch phrase

ReaperJr.5967:

Every diamond skin ‘rework’ advocate ever: “Oh it’s too binary so it’s bad design so let’s ‘rework’ it by nerfing how it fares against conditions. What about how it still doesn’t do anything against power builds, you say? Let’s just ignore that (since all I want is a nerf anyway).”

Actually Diamond Skin effects power builds too by keeping any initial application of vuln, cripple, chill, imob off the target. Vuln in particular means a direct damage loss for the power user (and vuln was originally there for power). All CC conditions exist to either slow the target down, or allow the power user to engage upon/burst the target. So as a completely free moving entity the Diamond Skin ele is making use of a HUGE advantage over the power user. Both his damage, and his ability to land said damage.

Diamond skin has always, and will continue to be a broken mechanic that needs changing.

Supreme.3164:

Will a nerf to DS stop necros from complaining about eles? …NO

Actually yes, condi reaper counters ele without DS due to the high condi pressure that eles cant remove and the permachill that mess their attunements

DS definitely need a nerf. Just give it a 0,5 s internal cooldown, that would make it still useful

Supreme.3164:

Oozo.7856:

This thread boiled down to two arguments:

Argument: A good condi necro can beat DS
Counter-argument: Only a bad DS loses to a condi necro

The real question is: Can a condi necro beat a DS tempest of equal skill?

I think the necros that this community views as the best say that they can’t beat the DS tempests that this community also views as the best.

I’ve run across two types of DS tempests. There are the ones that seem to think that DS is all they need to win. They die to viper necro. Then there are the ones that are very good at managing their health and counter the direct damage they are taking to keep their health high. They don’t die.

Pls define “skill”, in a MMO the guy who win is always the noob that runs OP builds and this accordingly to the general MMO pop, the real question is :

Will a nerf to DS stop necros from complaining about eles? …NO
It’s not like necros have suddenly started to complain about eles…so spare me the “I can’t beat eles because of DS” catch phrase

Well, elems without DS are generally easy to beat with conditions. So, they need some kind of condition protection but diamond skin is just pure flat out bad design. There is a reason that no other game (that I can think of) has anything similar to diamond skin. Nothing that good should ever be passive.

At a minimum, diamond skin should not stop control effects.

As far as necros complaining about elementalists before DS, I’m not sure what you are talking about. The only complaint I can think of is their mobility, but necro mobility sucked and still sucks against a lot of builds.

edit: And Ross above makes a good point about non-damaging debuffs like vulnerability and weakness. The fact that condition CC and non-damaging conditions don’t work makes it harder for even a power build to connect.

So necros think that eles are easy to beat if they don’t have DS, therefore them losing to eles is only due to this single trait, once the trait is removed..they should win easy against eles….and if not than something obviously still remains OP on ele

As I’ve said not matter what; the guy who lose will always blame the game and not themselves

I would like to point out that eles get CHUNKED by condis when diamond skin falls off. It gets exceptionally frustrating when it doesn’t fall off, too. In my opinion, diamond skin is a dysfunctional trait for both eles and anyone trying to fight them.

I would like to see them rework DS so that it reduces condi damage by 50% while above 75% hp or so. This way eles would still be able to get pressured in the very least by conditions, yet they are actively able to keep the reduction in damage while having to clear themselves.

Currently diamond skin is just a bad trait…

The DS tempest is the only thing helping the team to survive the onslaught of condis from revs, reapers, scrappers and more. The trait allows the ele to pick more team oriented traits like powerful aura over more selfish traits. Without DS, the tempests wil simply switch to selfish builds, the condi abuse currently affecting GW2 will become even more pronounced .

Supreme.3164:

So necros think that eles are easy to beat if they don’t have DS, therefore them losing to eles is only due to this single trait, once the trait is removed..they should win easy against eles….and if not than something obviously still remains OP on ele

As I’ve said not matter what; the guy who lose will always blame the game and not themselves

Thats why people asks for a rework, not a nerf, and so find smth between the two scenarios

But yeh, the guy who hates will always hate no matter if he has reasons or not

Reign in conditions then a proper nerf should follow. I think attaching diamond skin to earth utility skills like earth armor and aftershock is a good compromise, but wouldn’t need a HP threshold. If diamond skin is irredeemably OP according to objective standards and metrics then replace it with a skill that attaches reveal to a 600 radius on all enemies in that radius. This way you can target the mesmer and use gust if you’re in the process of lightning flash to stomp but the stealth rez happened at around the same time.

Diamond skin tempest needs a nerf. Diamond skin ele is fine.

nobody says it needs nerf but a rework, for me there are 2 ways:
-pulsing resistance 3sec every 3sec so offensive dispell could be usefull in this spam boon game
or
-immunity to condition when you reach 25% hp so a well timed dispell allow elem to disengage out, heal and come back

Diamond Skin isn’t OP, its completely useless against power builds but it walls off condition builds pretty well. The only reason we can even fight necromancers is because of Diamond Skin. Once its removed, load on the conditions and its game over.

Instead of nerfing Diamond Skin, how about we start with the Earth Major trait called Elemental Shielding. Here, I’ll link it for you. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Shielding

This is one of the reasons why removing DS is next to impossible on Tempest builds. When you have access to base 3 second protection on utility skills (Feel the Burn, Eye of the Storm, Aftershock), elite skill (if running Rebound) as well as weapon skills (Shocking Aura, Frost Aura for D/D, Magnetic Aura for Staff) it becomes a problem because now too much damage is being mitigated and most if not all damage that comes in is being out healed. Just as a start, I feel that Elemental Shielding needs an internal cooldown because the access to constant protection is what makes Diamond Skin OP.

I’ve used DS before HoT and at that point there were next to no complaints because many considered it to be garbage due to the “Above 90% HP only” which wasn’t a problem until Elemental Shielding can be activated on 5 to 6 different skills with no cooldown.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, DS is mainly OP on Tempest because Tempest traits synergize way too effectively with auras. Regen + Vigor on top of more auras from overloading and then healing on top of applying auras. Diamond Skin OP on Tempest, on anything else its okay at best.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Bastion
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Conduit

Mizu.4508:

Diamond Skin isn’t OP, its completely useless against power builds but it walls off condition builds pretty well. The only reason we can even fight necromancers is because of Diamond Skin. Once its removed, load on the conditions and its game over.

Instead of nerfing Diamond Skin, how about we start with the Earth Major trait called Elemental Shielding. Here, I’ll link it for you. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Shielding

This is one of the reasons why removing DS is next to impossible on Tempest builds. When you have access to base 3 second protection on utility skills (Feel the Burn, Eye of the Storm, Aftershock), elite skill (if running Rebound) as well as weapon skills (Shocking Aura, Frost Aura for D/D, Magnetic Aura for Staff) it becomes a problem because now too much damage is being mitigated and most if not all damage that comes in is being out healed. Just as a start, I feel that Elemental Shielding needs an internal cooldown because the access to constant protection is what makes Diamond Skin OP.

I’ve used DS before HoT and at that point there were next to no complaints because many considered it to be garbage due to the “Above 90% HP only” which wasn’t a problem until Elemental Shielding can be activated on 5 to 6 different skills with no cooldown.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, DS is mainly OP on Tempest because Tempest traits synergize way too effectively with auras. Regen + Vigor on top of more auras from overloading and then healing on top of applying auras. Diamond Skin OP on Tempest, on anything else its okay at best.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Bastion
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Torrents
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Conduit

Diamond skin is only used by aurashare eles a selfless build , ele can run selfish builds also, builds that would suffer greatly with your suggestions

DS nerf is only a trending persecution, pushed by players that wants to win every 1v1 fight, on team fights, there’s roles and each has a function, eles are doing theirs as intended as mesmers are. On those team fights DS is rarely OP, general sustainability and damage mitigation plays a more important role. In my opinion there’s a real OP trait that ele has that it’s a must pick and counters different mechanics and a whole trait line for a certain class, not a very specific build.

Mizu.4508:

Diamond Skin isn’t OP, its completely useless against power builds but it walls off condition builds pretty well. The only reason we can even fight necromancers is because of Diamond Skin. Once its removed, load on the conditions and its game over.

FALSE. Reaper power builds are slow, melee range bruisers that are forced to rely on slowing down their enemies with chill or locking them down with fear in order to deal their damage. Druids also tend to be heavily reliant on immobilize. All of these are negated by diamond skin. Even if we accept the incredibly poor design decision of passive, complete condition immunity, it still counters some power builds pretty well. And yes, especially if (as you pointed out) the tempest also has permanent 40% damage reduction, high reflect uptime, and auras that chill or stun attackers.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Mizu.4508:

Diamond Skin isn’t OP, its completely useless against power builds but it walls off condition builds pretty well. The only reason we can even fight necromancers is because of Diamond Skin. Once its removed, load on the conditions and its game over.

FALSE. Reaper power builds are slow, melee range bruisers that are forced to rely on slowing down their enemies with chill or locking them down with fear in order to deal their damage. Druids also tend to be heavily reliant on immobilize. All of these are negated by diamond skin. Even if we accept the incredibly poor design decision of passive, complete condition immunity, it still counters some power builds pretty well. And yes, especially if (as you pointed out) the tempest also has permanent 40% damage reduction, high reflect uptime, and auras that chill or stun attackers.

Well..good thing eles have something to punish people that attack him..maybe one day we’ll have something that prevent us from being hit in the first place

Supreme.3164:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Mizu.4508:

Diamond Skin isn’t OP, its completely useless against power builds but it walls off condition builds pretty well. The only reason we can even fight necromancers is because of Diamond Skin. Once its removed, load on the conditions and its game over.

FALSE. Reaper power builds are slow, melee range bruisers that are forced to rely on slowing down their enemies with chill or locking them down with fear in order to deal their damage. Druids also tend to be heavily reliant on immobilize. All of these are negated by diamond skin. Even if we accept the incredibly poor design decision of passive, complete condition immunity, it still counters some power builds pretty well. And yes, especially if (as you pointed out) the tempest also has permanent 40% damage reduction, high reflect uptime, and auras that chill or stun attackers.

Well..good thing eles have something to punish people that attack him..maybe one day we’ll have something that prevent us from being hit in the first place

Reflect, mistform, high mobility and near-permanent vigor aren’t enough? That’s a hell of a lot more then necromancers get.

Why not just lower the health threshold to 75% or 50%, but have the skill give 4-6s of resistance when struck by a condi on a 10s icd?
On one hand, the ds ele has actively to try to avoid skills that will take its resistance away, and condi builds have a better chance against the ele. On the other hand, that resistance will come into play much more often while the ele is under pressure and can’t keep its health above 90%. Better yet, the resistance uptime can be boosted with boon duration runes.
As a frequent user of an ele, I can confidently say that the meta Diamond Skin build feels extremely cheesy to use as it is right now.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Supreme.3164:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Mizu.4508:

Diamond Skin isn’t OP, its completely useless against power builds but it walls off condition builds pretty well. The only reason we can even fight necromancers is because of Diamond Skin. Once its removed, load on the conditions and its game over.

FALSE. Reaper power builds are slow, melee range bruisers that are forced to rely on slowing down their enemies with chill or locking them down with fear in order to deal their damage. Druids also tend to be heavily reliant on immobilize. All of these are negated by diamond skin. Even if we accept the incredibly poor design decision of passive, complete condition immunity, it still counters some power builds pretty well. And yes, especially if (as you pointed out) the tempest also has permanent 40% damage reduction, high reflect uptime, and auras that chill or stun attackers.

Well..good thing eles have something to punish people that attack him..maybe one day we’ll have something that prevent us from being hit in the first place

Reflect, mistform, high mobility and near-permanent vigor aren’t enough? That’s a hell of a lot more then necromancers get.

Mistform is useless in high level PvP since you lose the capture point. It’s also on a 75s cooldown, not like Mesmer’s block. Meta Tempest has very poor mobility compare to Mesmer/Rev. And what’s the perma Vigor for if you spend the majority of your time channeling kitten cast skills?

The only thing I agree with you is reflection, but most of the DPS comes in melee range anyway.

There is a very serious problem in this topic; lack of enough explanation.

DS in a tempest is boringly op. Not game breaking, but boring. In normal dd ele, it is nothing. Just a minor barrier.

There is no balance between core vs elite. You say that most of the damage comes from melee, that also shows that core lb rangers are so outdated that they can kill themselves with their pew pew.

Some of us are thinking core professions when you adress one, and some of us think elite specs. That is why no one can communicate properly, and there are so much fights in the forums (also due to the immense failure of anet).

Maybe you/we should try to be specific about the profession/elite distinction. That would be easier. Most of the arguments I have seen in last month is flamed because of this misunderstanding.

The answer is no

In the current meta its really the only class that gives team support with the massive amounts of AOE condi. Take away Diamond Skin and the ele isnt usable anymore from a team perspective.

Also the huge thing is balance here. We have 2 classes that are not being used (except by a select few) for even regular ranked matches. People who actually try to play with non-meta builds are greatly weaker then there meta counter part.

Diamond Skin is just part of the current meta as a small counter to the spikes in DPS/Condi dmg being thrown around. IF you look at classes like DH/DD/Beserker, they are the actual counter to DS ele but the problem is that every other class counters them so the question becomes the upcoming patch.

The domino effect will occur but the question is will be good enough for eles to play other things?

alain.1659:

There is a very serious problem in this topic; lack of enough explanation.

DS in a tempest is boringly op. Not game breaking, but boring. In normal dd ele, it is nothing. Just a minor barrier.

There is no balance between core vs elite. You say that most of the damage comes from melee, that also shows that core lb rangers are so outdated that they can kill themselves with their pew pew.

Some of us are thinking core professions when you adress one, and some of us think elite specs. That is why no one can communicate properly, and there are so much fights in the forums (also due to the immense failure of anet).

Maybe you/we should try to be specific about the profession/elite distinction. That would be easier. Most of the arguments I have seen in last month is flamed because of this misunderstanding.

The major reason for flamed discussion is represented by the fact that people are trying to use DS as a ruse to nerf the core ele to the ground.
At the only mention of “removal of DS” you will be greeted by those who claim that the trait is OP, only in this case they will defend the trait claiming that the problem is ele and not the trait itself.

And you’re right in saying that most info are left out from conversation…that’s more convenient for many

The discussion from DS has quickly switched to core ele, in a distorted and diluted way:

1) They say ele has dmg reduction while in earth; that’s incorrect, the earth trait line was originally the toughness line for ele, after the June patch anet has replaced the toughness=dmg reduction formula with a trait FOR ALL CLASSES NOt JUST ELE, therefore the earth GM minor is the equivalent of 250 toughness aka 10%, as it stands the trait doesn’t even add up to the full 300 toughness as it was nerfed quickly after the patch launched

2) Ele has no other forms of dmg mitigation outside protection, heals and dodge….funny how somebody mention 75s CD skills as viable dmg mitigation.

The discussion would be far less toxic if “players” would focus on the issue instead than trying to push their own agenda proposing nerfs to core ele traits ( and even the traits that make Tempest worth using )

It has already been proved that meta auramancer dies to power/hybrid builds right? That means all this talk about heal/protection is useless and only caused by bitter individuals and protection does jack squat vs condis anyway if those talking against DS had any resemblance of power dmg, they would have np against meta tempest.

It has also been proved that once DS is off the ele falls down quickly despite all the super heal talk so again where’s the problem there?

If you(general talking) have a problem with DS….stick to the trait alone when talking about issues

So my point is : if you( general talking) want just to nerf ele to the ground make your(general talking) own delusional thread and don’t use DS as an excuse to push your own agenda

kdaddy.5431:

The answer is no

In the current meta its really the only class that gives team support with the massive amounts of AOE condi. Take away Diamond Skin and the ele isnt usable anymore from a team perspective.

Also the huge thing is balance here. We have 2 classes that are not being used (except by a select few) for even regular ranked matches. People who actually try to play with non-meta builds are greatly weaker then there meta counter part.

Diamond Skin is just part of the current meta as a small counter to the spikes in DPS/Condi dmg being thrown around. IF you look at classes like DH/DD/Beserker, they are the actual counter to DS ele but the problem is that every other class counters them so the question becomes the upcoming patch.

The domino effect will occur but the question is will be good enough for eles to play other things?

Ironically Tempest meta is what is keeping many other specs from being nerfed

With no more aoe protection/heal/condi clear…all who talk now will see their dear spec being nerfed hard, as everybody would start abusing the kitten out of reaper/DH and the rest.

A strong bunker is a necessary evil, used to keep at bay an even greater evil…in the end nobody ever wins, if DS get nerfed those who would rejoice will see their specs nerfed soon after…guaranteed

the question is will be good enough for eles to play other things?

There won’t be problem there, eles will switch back to selfish traits, many teams may drop ele then..but the class will still be viable

It needs rework, for example give resistance under certain condition.

ReaperJr.5967:

The term ‘rework’ and all is fine.. but how do you propose to do it? All the suggestions I’ve seen with regards to diamond skin so far only nerfs it’s ability to counter conditions while still providing nothing against power builds.

Every diamond skin ‘rework’ advocate ever: “Oh it’s too binary so it’s bad design so let’s ‘rework’ it by nerfing how it fares against conditions. What about how it still doesn’t do anything against power builds, you say? Let’s just ignore that (since all I want is a nerf anyway).”

Pffft, sorry to burst your bubble but if you can’t play around diamond skin you probably should learn to play. I’m all for a rework but no good ideas have been put forward so far, hence it’s fine the way it is.

Edit: Stone heart is binary too and pretty much counters power builds so why not ask for a stone heart ‘rework’ too? I’m guessing it’s because your easy conditions builds (aka condi reaper and co) aren’t affected by it eh?

Stone heart is not a hard counter you still make dmg and got a chance and not feeling completely useless. Thats the main difference

kuritsutian.2987:

DS nerf is only a trending persecution, pushed by players that wants to win every 1v1 fight, on team fights, there’s roles and each has a function, eles are doing theirs as intended as mesmers are. On those team fights DS is rarely OP, general sustainability and damage mitigation plays a more important role. In my opinion there’s a real OP trait that ele has that it’s a must pick and counters different mechanics and a whole trait line for a certain class, not a very specific build.

Not dude you need to have a CHANCE against any class or any build in 1 v1 . Having hardcounters where you have no chance cause you cant deal any dmg is just stupid and especially if you get hardcountered by 1 trait not by a single class

IronPhoenix.2045:

kuritsutian.2987:

DS nerf is only a trending persecution, pushed by players that wants to win every 1v1 fight, on team fights, there’s roles and each has a function, eles are doing theirs as intended as mesmers are. On those team fights DS is rarely OP, general sustainability and damage mitigation plays a more important role. In my opinion there’s a real OP trait that ele has that it’s a must pick and counters different mechanics and a whole trait line for a certain class, not a very specific build.

Not dude you need to have a CHANCE against any class or any build in 1 v1 . Having hardcounters where you have no chance cause you cant deal any dmg is just stupid and especially if you get hardcountered by 1 trait not by a single class

So if I choose not to take DS, do I deserve to have a chance against condi Reaper?

You’re asking for a chance for a condi Reaper to win DS Tempest. I’m asking for a chance for a none DS fresh air Tempest to win a Condi Reaper. Deal?

Just like I can’t pick a Freshair Tempest build and complain it dies to a Reaper, you can’t pick a full condi Reaper and complain it dies to a DS Tempest.

Supreme.3164:

Ironically Tempest meta is what is keeping many other specs from being nerfed

With no more aoe protection/heal/condi clear…all who talk now will see their dear spec being nerfed hard, as everybody would start abusing the kitten out of reaper/DH and the rest.

Powercreep has been a massive issue with this expansion and balancing the broad majority of new specs added in the expansion downwards sounds like a very good idea.